Soldier says he was ordered to shoot unarmed man

[yardwork]

Source: The News & Observer (Raleigh, NC)

By KATARINA KRATOVAC, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD - A U.S. soldier testified Thursday that he was ordered to shoot an unarmed Iraqi man, then his sergeant, from North Carolina, laughed and told the trooper to finish the job as the man convulsed on the ground.

...

"He asked me if I was ready. I had the pistol out. I heard the word shoot. I don't remember pulling the trigger. It took me a second to realize that the shot came from the pistol in my hand," he said, crying and speaking barely above a whisper.

Vela said that as the Iraqi man was convulsing on the ground, "Hensley laughed about it and hit the guy on the throat and said shoot again."

"After he (the Iraqi man) was shot, Sgt. Hensley pulled an AK-47 out of his rucksack and said, 'this is what we are going to say happened,'" Vela said. He was dismissed from the witness stand to compose himself.

Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/717933.html

---

Why aren't these trials getting more national attention?

[PDJane]

1. The trials aren't getting national attention

Because the administration wants to confine the attention.

This is no different than what happened in vietnam...remember Mai Lai? But the outrage from the public would force an end to the war, and this administration doesn't want that.

[pegleg]

3. These kinds of things never happen with US troops,remember?

As per the Swiftboaters against Kerry.

[yardwork]

35. Welcome to DU.

You make a very good point. The Bush administration Swiftboated Kerry, a true war hero, while making themselves war criminals.

[monktonman]

27. Remember Mai Lai?

Ask Colin Powell.

Yeah I remember and I was just a baby.
Thing is, decades from now people are going to say "remember Haditha, Abu Graib, Fallujah, etc.
and nobody will.
Mission accomplished

[dickbearton]

88. History repeats itself only so many times...

Believe me, decades from now, the Criminal George Bush and his
Iraq War will be remembered; if we survive this gang of
fascists.

[defendandprotect]

36. According to Sy Hersh, THIS is the most brutal and cruel army US has ever raised . .. .

I don't know if he considered "Operation Phoenix" which killed 60,000 VN civilians -- in the most brutal of ways.

[saigon68]

44. Lots of "Rustic" Thugs and Killers joining up ---No Leadership

No moral leadership either.

The enemy is vilified as sub-humanoid types by the DIs and trainers

The higher up officer right wing christian hate mongers encourage the hatred of the "natives" as (pick a racial epithet)

No wonder the natives get even by welcoming these hoodlums with rose petal parades

[defendandprotect]

49. Agree that this is compounded by racism and religious "crusading" ---

[yardwork]

52. Recent reports of forced conversions and forced prayers led by fundamentalist Christians

in the current military are of interest here.

[panzerfaust]

65. Link to TruthOut's article on a current lawsuit on this issue

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092507A.shtml

[defendandprotect]

72. Bush is giving them overall $2 billion a year --

They've tried before to right-wing radicalize the military -- this time they're succeeding it seems!!!

But, to the various new faith-based entities . . .. Bush is turning over $2 billion a year of taxpayer $$$!!!!

[yardwork]

51. The Southern Poverty Law Center has reported on White Supremacists in the U.S. military

Under the Bush administration, the U.S. military has relaxed the rules about who can sign up and serve. There are now a record number of self-identified White Supremacists and paramilitary types serving in the armed forces. This is tolerated - perhaps even encouraged - under our current government.

Imagine what happens when the military sends white supremacists into a nation like Iraq.

[saigon68]

58. The term "sand nigger" comes to mind

Don't bother to alert on this term. anyone who has been there knows this term is used frequently and without thought

It is the modern day version of the tried and true

Slope, Zipperhead, Gook etc from the bye gone days

[treestar]

127. There's a code "sand people" I've seen used

I was looking at a myspace page for someone I know of who went there and was actually killed there. All his friends were encouraging him, when he was leaving, to get or kill or eliminate as many sand people as he could.

Just because you join up doesn't mean you're a hero.

[Diclotican]

79. yardwork

yardwork

Think what wil come, when the "white supremist" are coming home to US??.. With the know-how to kill sivilians.... To relax rules to who can sign up to a all-volentary army.. Is just plain stupid.. But it is one thing to keep the quotas up too..

I for one, are happy I dont live in US...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[yardwork]

122. Thank you for posting, and your English is very clear!

[RaleighNCDUer]

84. They want the "right kind" of soldiers to predominate for when

they turn them loose on Massachusetts and Norther California.

What was unthinkable a generation ago has become very possible with today's military.

[rodeodance]

108. Kennedy spoke of this group in his Hate Crimes amendment yesterday

[dickbearton]

92. Exactly, no moral leadership...

The only god the Criminal Bush knows is money and as for the
so called Christians in the ranks; they are truly
Christofascists. They pervert Christ by their war and hate
mongering. It is a crusade of the oxymoron Christian Fascists.

[superconnected]

82. So true.

"If killing is natural, then why do they have to train people to do it?" - Joan Baez

[robinlynne]

100. This is the first I have heard of this trial.

[yardwork]

123. This is one of many. Isn't it appalling how little news coverage there is?

[yellerpup]

2. Even when a soldier survives war

he often loses the best part of who he/she used to be. Violence diminishes or destroys us all. K&R, because we need to know this ugly stuff whether we want to or not.

[tblue37]

28. I remember reading about one rural woman whose

son committed suiced after returning from Iraq. She said, "I gace them a swwet decent boy, and they gave me back a killer."

[yellerpup]

98. Yes, that.

Killer. :cry:

[tblue37]

120. OMG--I just now proofed this--what a mess.

It should read that her son committed suicide after returning from Iraq. She said, "I gave them a sweet decent boy, and they gave me back a killer."

[lovuian]

4. This is the horrible part of war

and why we need to get out of there

oppressors America hs become and you can see it at home

[yardwork]

7. It's no coincidence that violent crime is rising again in the U.S.

After decades of decline, violent crime is sharply up in the U.S., ever since we went back to war.

[Bucky]

30. My GOP friend assures me just coz crime went up under Reagan & down under Clinton & up under Bush...

it's all still a big coincidence. I agree. Rising crime rates always coincide with Republican administrations.

[kisserofsinners]

70. that's because repulicans start by slashing social services.

With out that critical resource, poor people are forced to crime, often very violent and drug related.

[yardwork]

76. Welcome to DU! It's true that poverty is way up under the Bush administration.

Apparently we have billions of dollars to spend on war but not a penny for the folks at home, or for the soldiers when they return wounded in mind and body.

[intheflow]

105. Or for rebuilding the Gulf Coast. n/t

[The Wizard]

83. What Republicans do best is

take money out of circulation and lower living standards that cause some people to engage in criminal activity to sustain a middle class life style. The poor always get the worst of it. You know how things roll down hill.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

102. so true. so sad.

How do they not see the connection?


Welcome to DU!

[coalition_unwilling]

41. Violence is as American as apple pie . . . and torture. (n/t) ... with

apologies to H. Rap Brown

[SpikeTss]

10. No, it's not

This is not the horrible part of war. This is all every war is about.
Murdering innocent people for the benefit of a few capitalists, who
get richer with each war. Only with the current administration it is
a little bit more extreme, because some of them profit directly
from killing Iraqis.

Ever wondered, why Donald Rumsfeld is so rich?

[yardwork]

13. The evidence supports your point.

[loudsue]

29. True that.

It's time that the internet educates the world on that point, too. Wars are STUPID. It's no way to solve 99.9% of the conflicts in a civilized world. It's the rumsfelds and cheneys (blood capitalists) that love wars, and a few of the soldiers who love killing....which is not, I don't think, a majority of them.

[saigon68]

62. Fight the Rich not their Wars

[Hydra]

5. "Our army doesn't do those things! They're peacekeepers!"

:puke:

The orders from on high don't match the propaganda...but why should this war be any different than all the others. It's just an excuse to suspend the law.

[yardwork]

6. That's why it is especially horrible that the news media are ignoring these trials.

Propaganda, hiding the real truth about what U.S. forces are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, special renditions, raping and murdering little girls and their families, Blackwater, the list goes on and on.

[Hydra]

8. This is my big issue with people who support any war

This is not a new problem. This has ALWAYS been the case when you send invading armies someplace. It's never clean, it's never legal, and it's never beneficial. More often than not, it's deliberate.

People who don't grasp the real meaning of war shouldn't be allowed to call for them.

[yardwork]

9. I absolutely agree. We knew this would happen back in 2002.

Anyone who has ever lived through a war knows what happens. I was a child during Vietnam and I remember well what happened. I knew it would happen again.

This time, it's even worse because of the heavy use of mercenaries and the Bush administration's use of torture and suspension of habeas corpus and all other human rights.

[Demeter]

16. Bush TOTALLY Understands War. He Gets Off on It

As does Cheney. That's the definition of a psychopath right there.

[Hydra]

17. That's fine that he and Dick know

it's not fine that most of America thinks that war is some sort of righteous behavior.

[codjh9]

99. Yep, just as they get off on power, and being The Deciders, and ... n/t

[Demeter]

104. And Death (as Long As It Isn't Their Own)

[panzerfaust]

63. PeaceKeepers: In the FarScape sense ...

[The Stranger]

11. We had a "Support the Troops!" Thread-Rally just a few days ago.

What a murderous change in attitudes.

[yardwork]

12. Supporting the troops means uncovering the truth about what they are being ordered to do.

[The Stranger]

20. No, you don't get off that easy. It doesn't matter whether they were ordered to do so or not.

An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

. . . .

It's clear, under military law, that military members can be held accountable for crimes committed under the guise of "obeying orders," and there is no requirement to obey orders which are unlawful. However, here's the rub: A military member disobeys such orders at his/her own peril. Ultimately, it's not whether or not the military member thinks the order is illegal or unlawful, it's whether military superiors (and courts) think the order was illegal or unlawful.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm

[yardwork]

23. I don't understand what you're getting at. I started this thread. Do you think I approve?

Why would I have started this thread if I approved of what is being done in Iraq? At the same time, I'm not about to blame "a few bad apples." These orders came from the very top - the White House.

[RaleighNCDUer]

85. I have often thought that was the real story behind Pat Tillman's

murder - that he refused to obey an unlawful order and he was summarily executed for it, as in "Don't you 'no,sir' ME!" Bang.

[yardwork]

124. I definitely think that he was planning to go public with his thoughts.

As a football star who had resigned from a multi-million dollar contract to serve the country, Tillman knew that his opinion would matter to a lot of people. So did other people.

I definitely think that Pat Tillman's death was no accident. It was done on purpose to make sure he never got a chance to tell what he knew.

[Hydra]

15. What yardwork said

How would you like it if you were ordered to kill unarmed civilians, and then ordered to keep your mouth shut? This isn't what most of them signed up for(and the ones who did want to do these things are graduating to Blackwater).

[The Stranger]

18. Why in the fuck would I ever sign up -- much less obey illegal orders that constitute war crimes?

[Hydra]

19. Because

the myth of "illegal orders" is a tired one. You do what you're told or your get sent home in a body bag.

As for why some of these kids signed up- some of them had no choice. Last year I almost had too...the job market in my area is a virtual sinkhole.

[The Stranger]

21. Apparently, from this story, the "myth" of illegal orders is not tired at all.

If you obey and execute illegal orders, you commit a crime.

[Hydra]

22. Of course you get strung up

but try telling your superior officer "I refuse to obey an illegal order." That would likely be followed by "You follow that order, soldier, or I'll shoot you myself!"

Besides, remember Abu Ghraib? 2 women scapegoated for what was likely an entire illegal operation. Think they didn't receive any "illegal orders" from on high?

[yardwork]

25. What Hydra said. I'm not about to paint every U.S. soldier with a broad brush.

Lots of people join the military because they truly believe it is a good thing to do. And lots of those who sign up don't have many better options. And some of those who sign up are flat-out lied to and mislead into signing.

There are a lot of wonderful people here on DU who are veterans, including some of our finest posters. I have utmost respect for them and many other people who have served in the military.

Rather than blaming all the soldiers, let's uncover the truth about what they're being commanded to do.

edit for spelling. fonics wurked for mi jes like dubya

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lost4words]

136. Many of the soldiers in NAM knew what to do..

[yardwork]

24. We'll see how the trial turns out - I'm not holding my breath.

A lot of this is happening and nobody has been punished. Bush is still in the White House. A lot of troops who have spoken out are dead.

[yardwork]

50. See Post #24

[dickbearton]

95. Like Vietnam, this dilemma will be solved when officers are fragged...

Eventually the soldiers will be worn out, see the futility,
and begin to frag (kill by fragmentation grenade) the
officers, then the war will come to a quick end.

[treestar]

128. Goodness, go to another area, or even another country

Those are options for getting jobs before signing up for the military.

Not that it's wrong if you really want to do it, but if it's because there are no other options, exhaust all possibilities first.

[Hydra]

133. Nice thought there

but I was living on $100 per week from unemployment at the time, for the 7th week. There was no way for me to even pay the gas to move...and I've been trying since 2004 to get out of the country.

Starving to death is an unpleasant way to die.

[Lost4words]

164. the lack of jobs is the GOP draft. and its working well for them

I looked into it but I am too old to join. No Jobs No Insurance little or no future, Isnt The USA a Great Country or what?

8643

[saigon68]

60. Sorry I must have missed it

[GreenTea]

14. "Why aren't these trials getting more national attention?" That's a rhetorical question right?

Why doesn't anything of real importance get more national exposure? So many important stories just die from lack of any major news reporting them. This is just another story of thousands not being reported. The republicans and their corporations have spend the last 35 or so years accumulating all facets of mainstream media, it's certainly not in their best interest to report stores harmful to their war for profit....Smaller news organizations and liberal media will report stories like this and there are so many of them...but the corporate media sees no value on reporting stories that make their military operations look bad. The republicans control the flow of information that most people receive.

[yardwork]

26. Thank you. It wasn't rhetorical so much as a leading question.

I want more people to ask and answer that question. I want everyone in the United States to talk about why these and so many other stories aren't reported in the media.

[Trillo]

31. Because we don't have a Free Press?

At best, it appears we have a corporatist press carefully managed and controlled from above.

[axollot]

111. Exactly - our *news*....

Is like the "State Sanctioned" *new*s in Burma, China etc except it isn't as obvious to the gen pop.
This should be all over the news, but no Moveon.org's NYT betray us ad is in the spot light (which in a way is good too, despite the fact it is all negative).

Even BBC World News America is getting dumbed down next week. grrrrrrr
~Sandy

[Zandor]

32. We have a moral military, by and large

These isolated incidents ar reprehensible, but let's remember most people that make up our military are good people.

[yardwork]

33. See my post #25

[Zandor]

34. It's one soldier's claim

The tone of some posts implies this is more widespread than it is. It's a question of taking an isolated incident and extrapolting it through the military.

[yardwork]

37. Uh, no. There is a lot of evidence that this IS a widespread problem.

As I say in my OP, the media gives very little attention to these trials, but this is one of many. And imagine all the atrocities we haven't even heard about!

[Zandor]

40. It troubles me

A report of one soldier claiming he was ordered to commit a murderous act gets a lot of recs and is dropped DU's home page. Why?

If it's a story of a more systemic problem - like Abu Ghraib - that's something we should shine a light one. But when an isolated incident like this is trumpeted, it feels like troop bashing.

[yardwork]

53. Have you read this report? Are you following the trial?

This sounds like a systemic problem to me.

[dickbearton]

97. Yardwork, systemic problem, so right; the entire war is a Bush/Cheney war crime.

[defendandprotect]

39. You're highly naive if you don't understand that this is policy . .. . from the highest levels -- !!

[Zandor]

42. Thanks for supporting my point

You take this incident and make an unfouded slander.

[defendandprotect]

46. This isn't ONE incident; we have heard this before -- Abu Ghraib is testimony to killing + torture -

Check what other soldiers have been telling you -- if you've been listening.

[lastliberalintexas]

107. Yeah, "naive" could be one word for it

The search function is your friend. :)

[panzerfaust]

68. How widespread it is, is TOTALLY UNKNOWN

The old chestnut "... absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ..." comes to mind.

al-Lah knows our masters are not going to tell us.

[Karenina]

87. Kinda like Mad Cow...

[defendandprotect]

38. These aren't "isolated" incidents any more than Mai Lai was an isolated incident !!!

It was policy in VN to destroy the village --

And it is policy in Iraq to shoot and question later --

We have to find a way to have soldiers of conscience move out of this war --

[Zandor]

43. Almost all are soldiers of conscience n/t

[defendandprotect]

47. You have to be able to ACT on your conscience; not face someone threatening to kill you . . .

if you exercise it -- !!!!

[Zandor]

59. "You have to be able to ACT on your conscience"

Almost all do.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. But the longer this goes on, the "most" percentage gets smaller

and the "isolated" few gets larger. It is only natural that would happen. On the one hand, normal people have to shut down some emotions in combat - and the more often they are deployed and the more combat they see, the more gets shut down. On the other hand, those who are predisposed to brutality find themselves getting permission to fully explore that predisposition - there really are psychopaths out there, and now, with lighter restriction on recruiting you get criminals and gang members being sought after.

Then there is the whole 'crusader' pathology which is being indoctrinated in broad swaths of the military, so god himself gives them permission to do what they do.

The military of my youth does not exist anymore.

[yardwork]

125. It sounds like you know what you're talking about - what you say makes sense to me.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Zandor]

114. The war was a mistake

and it's management incompetent.

I'm not willing to broadbrush our troops, however.

[yardwork]

126. I agree that it is wrong to broadbrush all the troops.

I think that I've made that clear in this thread.

[TruthMonger]

45. Ap has no crediability left.........

How can one take anything from the AP as truth when last month the AP showed a Iraqi woman stating that US troops had shot at her house and she had the bullets to prove it. Come to find out, that her "proof" were all UNFIRED rounds.....Its war, people get emotional and crazy crap happens, you don't have the right to judge unless you've been placed in a long term situation where your life is on the line every day and your not sure who your enemy is....People do crazy things when under stress for long periods of time.

[defendandprotect]

48. We have the responsibility to listen to what our OWN soldiers are telling us -- and which . . . .

you are trying to ignore and dismiss . . .

[TruthMonger]

55. uh,,,,NO

No I'm pointing out chronic shoddy journalism by all outlets of media and the fact that you shouldn't trust any of it weather it comes from Fox News, AP, CNN, Ny Times or NPR. Now days each reporter incorporates their own agenda into their reports weather it be liberal of conservative, NONE of it can be trusted.

[defendandprotect]

106. Well, yes, I agree -- CNN turned upside down -- and viewership for all is way OFF ---

It's reflecting that not only is the "news" not informative as far as what citizens need to know ... but now disinformation ---

The numbers for the networks and CNN are horrendous!!!

CNN had something like 13 million viewers internationally --
Last I heard they were down to something like 3 million --

[yardwork]

54. You got a link for that story?

I never heard of it and I'm something of a news junkie.

[Recursion]

119. You mean the story about the bullets? How short has our collective attention span gotten?

I linked 5 stories downthread; here are a few more:
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/big_media_photo_editors_apparently_willing_to_believe_anything/
http://o-k.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/15/898243-bullets-of-war-or-faked-propaganda
http://www.brucified.com/ (check August 16)

The gist of the story is this:

This Iraqi woman was claiming US troops had shot her house up, killing most of her family. She pulled some bullets out of the wall of her house to prove it.

Whichever newswire is running the story (AP?) doesn't seem to notice that she's claiming these clearly unfired rounds had been fired at her.

RW blogosphere goes nuts.

[uppityperson]

138. Still not credible sources. I don't pay attention to RW blogosphere.

Don't think many here do, so "our collective attention span" of is it nonexistent. There are some who do, but most of us don't. Credible source please. Thank you.

[Recursion]

141. Ummm... you still aren't making sense

Somebody upthread said, "remember all that fuss about the Iraq story with the bullets?"

People say "what fuss?"

I say "Well, here's some RW bloggers pissed about it"

People say "those are RW bloggers, I want a 'credible source'"

I'm not even sure what you're asking. I've linked people's reactions to the photo, which is what was in question.

Wait, are you saying all these guys got together, colluded to photoshop that photo, and planted it in my memory and a lot of other people's memory too?

Seriously, I don't even get what you're asking.

[yardwork]

142. We're asking for a credible source other than discredited right-wing sites

It's against DU rules to even link those sites here, because they are known to be absolutely unreliable.

The story is beside the point anyway. So what if an Iraqi made up a story or not? What does that have to do with this thread?

[Recursion]

147. Credible source for what?

Seriously, what do you want a link to?

The original story? Sorry, it's been pulled.

CNN's retraction? Yeah, right...

Not all the bloggers I posted would classify as "right-wing", though I wouldn't call any of them "progressive". I was showing the reverberations that are still on the Dark Side of the blogosphere from a pretty bad story AP ran not too long ago.

It was brought up as an example of how bad the M$M's credibility has gotten (neither us nor the RW trusts them), and that story was a really, really blatant example that I still remember really well.

Maybe the woman's story is entirely true and she just added the unfired bullets as props. Maybe she made it up. We don't know but the M$M didn't bother to find out, they just ran a thoroughly bad story.

[yardwork]

148. What does this have to do with the trial that is the point of this thread?

Are you calling the soldiers liars? Don't you support the troops?

[uppityperson]

154. If the story was pulled, then it may not have been real.

Many rumors, many fake stories happen, which is why a credible source to a story is needed. RWers reacting to something, or even DUers reacting to something, is not enough to establish credibility of a thing.

[Recursion]

159. What exactly is in doubt here?

A) Are you doubting that the story ever actually ran? I remember it; if you won't take my word and the word of a few hundred bloggers on that simple historical fact, I'm not sure what to do, since the story was pulled.

B) Are you doubting the content of the original story? Join the club; so do all the blogs I linked

What is it that's in doubt that still needs verification?

[Zhade]

56. Where's YOUR proof?

NT!

[leftynyc]

57. Are you calling this solider a liar?

What the hell does the AP have to do with testimony that is part of a court record?

As far as your argument that "shit happens" - I thought we were liberating people over there. Or what's the weekly rationale now for why we are there?

[panzerfaust]

71. Link Please

[uppityperson]

94. Link to that story is needed. Thank you.

If you are going to post a story as true, you need to post a link also, otherwise it is just a story. Thank you.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

129. Please provide a link to a real news site.

Do you hang out on these sites?

[Recursion]

140. I'm not even sure what you're asking, either

People were asking what story an upthread post was talking about. I was linking to the RW blogosphere's reaction to that AP photo.

I'm not sure what you're saying, that the entire RW blogosphere made up that photo and implanted its memory in a lot of people's brains?

:shrug:

How exactly am I supposed to remind people about what the RW blogosphere was up in arms about if I don't link to them?

Or are you saying you want me to go find the original AP wire that had the photo (which they pulled after the controversy)?

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

144. Real link TO WHAT?

Seriously, what are you asking for? A candid and full retraction from CNN? I think we both know CNN well enough not to expect that.

Seriously, what do you want a link to?

[yardwork]

146. Do you have evidence to back up your assertion that the AP has no credibility?

If not, then you have nothing to say about this trial, which is the subject of this OP.

Are you calling U.S. soldiers testifying in this trial liars? Is that you, Rush?

[Recursion]

149. I have pretty much given up on the M$M, personally

So, yeah, if you had to ask me up or "down does the AP have credibility?", I'd say no. If there had been any M$M attempts to question this administration's statements, maybe, but as far as I'm concerned they sold us out 4 years ago.

[uppityperson]

137. RW blogs don't count as credible sources. Need a credibler source.

I can post links to unsubstantiated stuff also, but if there is no credible source, the story is very suspect.

[Recursion]

139. That doesn't even make sense

I'm not even sure what you're asking. You want me to go back in time to before AP pulled the photo after the RW flipped out?

[yardwork]

145. This has nothing to do with this thread.

You're talking about a completely unrelated issue - with no reliable link either - as a distraction from the trial that is discussed in this thread. You started out by stating that the Associated Press has "no credibility" and never followed that up with any evidence. Now you're blathering on about some photo that proves nothing even if it is real.

So what if somebody made up a story somewhere else in Iraq about some rounds being fired? This is a completely different issue. Are you calling the soldiers testifying in THIS trial liars?

[Recursion]

151. IIRC the connection

TruthMonger, a "2-post wonder", asked how anyone can believe the AP after they ran that story. People asked "what story are you talking about?" I answered since I assumed TruthMonger had hit and run, and it's a worthwhile story to talk about.

As far as this trial goes, I don't see the connection -- the "magic bullets" story is mostly about some specific stringers in Iraq (and some in Lebanon) that AP simply won't cut loose despite some serious problems in the past few years. But I gave up on the AP's credibility 4 years ago, and not because of unfired bullets.

[yardwork]

152. You need to get rid of those links to unreliable right-wing sites.

[Recursion]

160. Remind me what you're still in doubt of

Are you doubting that the original news story ran?

[uppityperson]

153. Credible source to the story posted in #45.

I want a credible source to that story. NOT the RW bloggers flipping out, since all that shows is someone reacting to something that may or may not have happened. Source to the story.

[Recursion]

158. The story was pulled

It was retracted after the firestorm of RW flame emails.

You want a link to a retracted story?

Am I missing something here?

[uppityperson]

163. So there is no link to a credible source. Got it.

There may have been a story, which got pulled. There is no story. No story from a credible source. That is what is needed to prove that something actually happened, was not just an urban legend, so to speak. There are lots of stories, lots of claims. If there is no credible source, a story falls into the non-validated category, like this one. Thank you.

[bjobotts]

61. Can't criticize a man in uniform. Iraqis aren't humans. They don't even speak English

There are many monsters wearing uniforms. War does not justify murder. Imagine the man on the ground was an American and these were Iranian soldiers who shot him. These people are trained to kill on command but never suspected that their commanders might be animals with no conscience or respect for human life. It's hard to justify killing in a preemptive war and I'm expected to honor our troops because they have agreed to do this? This is not WWII with a clear enemy. These warriors make it up as they go along and sometimes the enemy is us. Supporting this occupation is supporting murder, but in this case slaughter is the more appropriate word.

The kid never signed up for this crap...but he did it anyway...a soldier always has the right to say no to criminal orders...that's what it means to take an oath to the "constitution"...not to commanders...and to protect it from all enemies foreign and 'domestic'.
His sergeant just laughed at murdering a man? If this is the behavior from an armed military man who took the oath what do we expect from a Blackwater mercenary.

[Hydra]

64. Read my post further up

The reality in a war zone is that refusing an illegal order will get you a bullet from your commanding officer or from his 2nd. War zones are not based on rules of engagement or any of the nonsense you get from the Military's PR. You do as you are told or your go home in a body bag. You snitch on your unit, and you are likely to face the same fate.

Also, don't lean on WWII too much. We allowed the Soviet Army to ravage Berlin with untrained conscripts when the Germans had offered to surrender to us begging us to protect them from that very fate. We spit in their face and demanded an unconditional surrender. Later, we sent assassins through the refugee camps hunting former german officers and killed them on the spot. Our behavior was far from stellar. And that's even before the material support provided by various US Corps in return for concentration camp labor.

[BlooInBloo]

66. mmm... Just following orders people... My favorite.

[Hydra]

69. No, just ranting about illusions people have about choices involved

If a presidential order comes down that a city like Fallujah is to be "pacified" and that all remaining people are to be treated as enemy combatants, what is the likely chance of somebody questioning the legality of it successfully?

We should not have invaded, we should not have let Bush be in control of them while doing so, and we shouldn't be looking at dragging this out until 2013. That's my answer to this problem- if they weren't there, they wouldn't be doing things like this.

[tuckessee]

109. How many times has a US soldier been summarily executed...

...in the field for disobeying an order, legal or otherwise?

I hear that excuse given often as to why US soldiers commit heinous acts but examples of it happening seem non-existant.

Certainly there must be some records of this happening. Let's see them.

[Hydra]

132. Do you think it is reported as such?

No way. That would lead to questions, which might lead to problems. I'll give the example from the article:

Vela said that as the Iraqi man was convulsing on the ground, "Hensley laughed about it and hit the guy on the throat and said shoot again."

"After he (the Iraqi man) was shot, Sgt. Hensley pulled an AK-47 out of his rucksack and said, 'this is what we are going to say happened,'" Vela said.

The "traitorous" soldier is claimed to have been killed during a firefight...it's so easy. They do the same with the "accidents" that happen with civilians. "He shot at us first!"

This is not new, or different. The many reports we have seen of misconduct are simply the tip of a very black iceberg. Many of the coverups work well enough that the investigators have the excuse to look the other way, and are encouraged to do so. Can't have morale low, you know. Can't have the bad PR back home. Bad enough that the local media cover it.

The only thing that's changed in war since it was invented were the weapons used to fight it with.

[tuckessee]

150. So in other words you can provide no examples.

There's no way the military is going allow summary field executions of its own soldiers. Arrest - yes. Beating - yes. But execution - no.

Nothing would destroy morale more than having every soldier fearing that anyone who outranks him can immediately liquidate him on a whim.

This is the US Army we're talking about - not the NKVD driven Red Army - and culturally American soldiers would not tolerate it. Fraggings would result and a mutiny would occur.

[Hydra]

155. Really...

I didn't go digging(since the above example and the event with the 14yo girl and he family being liquidated are so similar), but if it would change your mind, I would be willing to find you a direct example of either a snitch with a bullet in the back of the head "killed by the enemy" or a botched coverup, because I've seen a few since the war started.

If you're going to be a naysayer, and claim that "ok, but this only happens in a small number of cases" it's not worth my time to prove to you what is already indicated as happening in this very article.

[tuckessee]

156. What we're talking about here is summary execution of US soldiers

by superiors for not following an order, illegal or otherwise. I don't know what 14 yr. girls have to with anything.

We are also not talking about snitches being snuffed, fraggings or cases where a soldier who is obviously risking security is silenced by any means by anyone who can do it. Prehaps the most well-known case of the latter is described in Sledge's classic With the Old Breed where a hysterical marine is dispatched by his foxhole mates with shovels.

I'm looking for cases where higher ranking personell kill or order killed one or more of their men on the spot.

I'm not trying to put the burden of proof on you because they are many who contend the same as you.

It's just that all my many years of study & research of military history (mostly WW2) which has included countless candid & honest interviews I've never heard of it actually happening.

[Hydra]

157. I'm showing a pattern of abuse

In this case, the case of the 14yo girl, and human rights debacle in Falluja , we are seeing not just a blackout in terms of the facts being reported, we are seeing soldiers giving false report to cover their units. That is not an irrelevant piece of information, because it shows that in units such as the one in the OP, commanders that give illegal orders may reasonably be expected to have allies among the unit that are able to bully the undecided into agreeing with the order, and if the dissenter persists, he may be viewed as a "weak link" in the chain.

As to whether summary execution is official policy, you'll have to ask Bush and Rumsfeld.

Since you seem to be willing to accept facts, I'll go digging and see what I can find for you.

[Hydra]

161. here you go- most of the illegal orders things point to Watada, unfortunately

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0803-07.htm

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20061028-9999-1n28obey.html

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/newscommentary/000399.php

Since I can't find more than one news report(fragging of a Commander and another in the company) of murdering among our ranks(statistically impossible after 5 years with more than 100,000 troops on the ground), I have to conclude a blackout is currently in effect.

Still, I think this makes the case- either almost all of those men are willfully complicit in Illegal Orders(with some of them trying to blow the whistle through massive red tape), or there are many more who are refusing the orders and not reporting them and/or have been silenced.

Truly, a sad state of affairs.

[Thothmes]

112. Soviet Army

Exactly how were we going to prevent the Soviet Army from getting to Berlin. Those soldiers were not untrained conscripts. As an example, the soldiers of the 8th Guards army had fought the Germans all the way from Stalingrad. They were every bit as well trained as the American, British, Canadian, and French soldiers the fought in France. As far as that was concerned, the Germans deserved the fate they received, remember they were the ones that started it all in Europe.

[Hydra]

131. "They deserved what they got"

I hear that excuse a lot. How about we do what we say we do in the myths, or we quit perpetuating them.

As for stopping the Soviets, we easily could have. We got to Berlin before they did, and we could simply have accepted the German surrender and told Stalin that we held the city, and it was over. Patton, in fact, was furious when the Soviets laid claim to all the land they'd gobbled up when they met in Berlin, and said something to the effect of, "Get back in your tanks, boys! We aren't done yet."

If indeed they were not simply conscripts(which I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, due to their extreme lack of disciple when they occupied Berlin), then we were even more remiss than I said in allowing such savagery.

We're supposed to be "civilized"...apparently some of us have a LONG way to go.

[yardwork]

77. ...and look what it did to this man. He sobbed on the stand.

This war and the atrocities our military is asking people to commit are permanently damaging them. They are coming home with severe trauma. Not to mention the impact it's having on the people our troops are murdering and torturing all over the world. And Congress can't even get habeus corpus restored!

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. Exactly. The good guys wind up like this,

while the bad guys re-up or join Blackwater. This is not my generation's military, much less my father's generation. This is a whole nother critter.

[yardwork]

121. Yes. Atrocities destroy good people and empower the evil ones.

My purpose in posting this article was not to bash U.S. troops or paint them all with a broad brush. I hope that I've made that clear.

At the same time, we can't ignore what is happening! It's not ok for the U.S. media to hide these trials and reports on back pages while attempting to distract the public with stories about Hollywood celebrities.

The United States of America can and should have a military of which we are all proud. The only way to ensure that is through accountability, transparency, and commands that uphold the Constitution. The president of the United States is the commander in chief. The buck stops with him.

[codjh9]

67. God Help Us. n/t

[gateley]

73. War can turn us -- including you and me -- into monsters. I think of all the

Viet Nam vets who participated in such atrocities who are now appalled and sickened by their actions. They can't imagine how they became "that person".

It doesn't matter which war, it's the insanity and brutality and unreality and fear that makes us insane.

I find it curious that when I read about this North Carolina Sargent, for example, I myself am filled with rage and a desire to 'hurt him', to make him suffer -- to make him pay. The poison of war is even affecting me here at home. The NC sargent may have been a good, wonderful human being before exposure to all the death and hatred rampant in Iraq. He may have been an asshole bully who'd be attending Klan meetings if he was still at home, who knows?

But war changes us as human beings. It can bring out the best and can bring out the most horrifying aspects we never dreamed existed. A soldier may rush to save an Iraqi citizen from harm ,then later the same day participate in Abeu Rabi-type torture and abuse.

It's just so bizarre and frightening and heartbreaking. And I don't know where I was going with this post, but I feel better having said it.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

74. you dehumanize your enemy

and he becomes easier to kill. this tactic is as old as empire...

[Broadslidin]

75. The Nazi S.S. Would be Very Impressed with Our Imperial Military.

As always with our specie,
Murder means little when Protecting
Imperial Multi-National Corporate Interests.

[jeff30997]

86. You have 666 posts....

Very appropriate when talking about the SS.:evilgrin:

[Zandor]

116. Slander

How dare you compare our military to the Nazis.

[Thothmes]

118. SS

I doubt it. The SS track record includes Einzatsgruppen, Treblink, Sobibor, Malmady, Lidche(sic) and countless others. The travesties committed by the United States armed forces pale in significance and appear rather amateurish in comparison to the SS. My opinion in no way defends those actions by American military personnel, if guilty they should be punished.

[Hydra]

162. I bet they would be more impressed with our PR

we're still the nation of "freedom and justice" to many people. I won't say most, because that number is dwindling rapidly.

[elocs]

78. Our military is composed of individual soldiers, individual men an women.

As long as these people are willing to follow illegal and immoral commands, then the sad refrain of the Nazis will continue to echo: "I was just following orders". A soldier's first oath is to the Constitution of the United States and if they have the courage to face the risk of combat they should try and find the moral courage to not follow illegal orders.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. And if they have that kind of courage, they wind up like Pat Tillman. nt

[elocs]

101. So they are willing to sacrifice their lives for Bush and the lies,

but not for the Constitution of the United States? You can't Pat Tilman all of them.

[Gman]

80. A coup de tat happened in this country and the media didn't report that either

So mainstream America doesn't think it happened because it wasn't reported. There's no use trying to figure out why this isn't in the media if how this began wasn't reported either.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

81. All war is hell.Always has been,always will be. Period !

[L0oniX]

93. Just another typical baby killer

<snip> "Why aren't these trials getting more national attention?" It's the media. They are the enemy of truth and they lie by omission.

[dailykoff]

110. Guess which one gets snapped up by Blackwater.

After his legal affairs are straightened out, of course.

[Xenotime]

113. Is this what our troops are doing to the people in Iraq?

This is horrible.

[Zandor]

115. Only a few

Save the broadbrush

[yardwork]

130. But let's find out what's really going on, before we dismiss it is an anomaly.

There are too many incidents like this.

[Mountainman]

134. After you have been in war for awhile life seems very cheap and meaningless unless it is your life.

I can see the point of the soldier in question. The reality of what he did hit him after he did it. The reality was that there was no danger to him yet he killed. If he felt threatened and killed he would not have felt the way he did. It is not the killing that got to him but the fact that it was meaningless.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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