Scientology faces criminal charges

[Tab]

Source: Associated Press

BRUSSELS, Belgium - A Belgian prosecutor on Tuesday recommended that the U.S.-based Church of Scientology stand trial for fraud and extortion, following a 10-year investigation that concluded the group should be labeled a criminal organization.
...
Van Espen's probe also concluded that Scientology's Brussels-based Europe office and its Belgian missions conducted unlawful practices in medicine, violated privacy laws and used illegal business contracts, said Lieve Pellens, a spokeswoman at the Federal Prosecutors Office.

"They also face charges of being ... a criminal organization," Pellens said in a telephone interview.
...
Investigators have spent the past decade trying to determine how far Scientology went in recruiting converts after numerous complaints were filed with police by ex-members alleging they'd been the victims of intimidation and extortion.

Justice officials seized financial records, correspondence, bank statements and other papers in their decade-long probe to track the flow of money to Scientology. Police also raided the offices of several consultancy firms linked to the Church of Scientology.

Pellens said that prosecutors expect Scientology to mount a strong legal challenge to the charges at a court hearing, which could come in the next two to three months. She acknowledged that could delay the case for years.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_eu/belgium_scientology

---

I had a co-worker once who got immersed into Scientology (by way of her fiancé, if I remember correctly). She seemed brainwashed. I did some research and found the "church" (I use the term loosely), aside from being founded by a science fiction writer, charges you money to advance to "the next level" of Thetan or whatever it is. You have to undergo certain sessions to cleanse yourself or whatever to advance, and often are encourage to go on cruises or to conventions, all of which cost money, and to advance to the highest levels you have to spend more money to get to the inner circles. It really does seem like a scam.

If anyone here wants to defend it, I'd like to understand why you think it's worthy of defense, and to hear your arguments. But from what I've seen, it's a cult to extract money from people.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. All religions are cults to extract money from people

Why bash Scientology alone for it?

[atreides1]

3. Why is it bashing?

Why don't you ask the prosecutor and the former members if this is bashing or justice?

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. My comment was tongue in cheek

I thought that was obvious.

[poverlay]

19. I got, and appreciated it... n/t

[hlthe2b]

4. I have problems with most organized religions, but no similarity....

I've been approached by Scientology recruiters... It is true that they literally "sell" membership and "advancement" from one level to another.

So, yes, that is quite distinctly different from the organized religions, however flawed, that I am familiar with.

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. I see, it's the style or method of taking money that makes them different

Although not much really. Most churches that I know of ask for ten percent of your annual income for life, which is way more than it will cost to reach the highest echelons of Scientology and find out all one needs to know about Xenu.

[hlthe2b]

16. Yes.. when it comes so close to extortion, yes.

I have never personally been pressured, nor known of anyone who has been pressured to give a specific amount of money to any church they have either belonged to or occasionally visited.

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. I was pressured to give money to the Hare Krsnas

And I've never been a member or visited their church. Oh, and also by these little ladies in white who stand in airports and pout at you... don't know what religion they are, but I've never seen a Scientologist doing any of the commmon or garden public begging that Christians and Hare Krsnas like to do. Not that I like Scientologists, I just don't see why their method of extracting money is so abhorrent to be singled out when there are more egregious examples in more mainstream religions. Perhaps having a menu of costs for services returned is BETTER than, say, offering a vial of holy water for a $20 donation.

[hlthe2b]

25. Hare Krsnas? You think that is indicative of main stream church

practices? Jeeminy... I have no desire to defend main stream organized religion, but geebus! What a stretch!

[Joe Bacon]

50. It sure is

My idiot aunt threw thousands of dollars to liars like Oral Roberts. Remember when that liar said the 900 foot figure of Jesus told him to build his hospital and JC said that once it was built ol Whoreall would be told what the cure for cancer was????

I remember that all too well. When it comes to deceit, Scientology is just as crooked as Christianity!!!!!!

[hlthe2b]

52. Yes... I do not associate these tv charlatans with main stream

religion, but obviously some do. I also do not associate these charlatans or the fundamentalist RW form of religion as Christianity. Anyone with even a modicum of time spent reading the tenets of Christianity from the New Testament should be able to see the difference, imo. Unfortunately, many do not.

[Cronus Protagonist]

110. I wonder if there are any honest churches

It seems that all religions have similar problems with their church leaders. That position in society does seem to attract people who act like, well, Republicans.

[DarkTirade]

134. When I was younger I went to a church that didn't do that.

I liked that church. They weren't trying to force ideology on people, the pastor was just a really smart guy who even went so far as to learn ancient greek so he could interpret some of the older versions of the bible, and he passed what he learned to the rest of us. There were no collection plates, just a few drop boxes in the back. Fairly non-conspicuous ones too. If you wanted to give money, you really had to look. :) The only time I EVER remember them asking for money was when the church got so damn popular that they needed to expand. They never tried to brainwash people, never tried to force ideologies on them. Even when I started to not believe I didn't mind going to church there.

Last I checked, most people are labelling that church as a 'megachurch' now, because it's gotten so damn big. Not bad for a church that started in an abandoned roller skating rink, and never passed around collection plates.

From everything I've seen I know that church is an exception. Still, nice to know such things can exist. And since I haven't been back there in 8 or 9 years, it's entirely possible that the church has changed since I went there. Still, for at least a few years it was honest. :)

[Petrushka]

151. Was it located in Arkansas? If so, see . . .

http://www.shepherdschapel.com

[DarkTirade]

166. Nope, Florida.

[Quantess]

188. Objectively, I doubt that Democrats are any better prepared for cult activity.

Well, maybe. We've heard the lies for so long, at this point, we could write them ourselves.

[DemBones DemBones]

132. Oral Roberts is not mainstream. nt

[LanternWaste]

72. We do beg a lot in my church...

We do beg a lot in my church. Although the money goes to Meals on Wheels, Inner City Youth Outreach Programs and pre-school and adult day cares, I'm also the first to admit how cult-oriented those practices are. Feeding the elderly? Whadda scam!!!!

[pnwmom]

92. I bet no one's accusing your church of intimidation and extortion.

Just a wild guess.

;)

[superconnected]

82. Usually they show up at your door with cybernetics.. I think that's the name of the book.

The point is, Scientologists go door to door. I have only run into them at my front door.

[bemildred]

104. "Dianetics". Cybernetics would be Norbert Wiener. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

112. Hahahaa you're correct, of course

The funny thing was I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. I read "Dianetics" too. It's a load of fantastic claptrap that borders on the believable. I guess that's what makes bibles work in general....

[superconnected]

138. well, they didn't give me a copy of that book. Yes Dianetics.

[eppur_se_muova]

183. ... and that would be a visit from the Borg. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

111. Oh yeah, like the Mormon church and the Pentacostalist churches

and the quaker church and the church of Jehova's Witness. . . .

[loudsue]

123. QUAKERS????

Where in the hell did THAT come from?? Quakers are probably the MOST laid-back religion in the history of religion.

:kick:

[DemBones DemBones]

131. Quakers don't go door to door nor do they

require donations of members. Most Christians groups suggest giving 10% of your income, i.e., tithing, which is a Biblical concept. I think the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses require it and the Baptists push hard on it, from what I have observed.

[jmm]

139. I've had several encounters with Scientologists

approaching me in public. I'm not just talking about the ones offering e-meter readings and asking about my stress levels. I think alot of it has to do with where you live. I have an ex who would constantly get approached by them. I kept telling him he needed to stop dressing like he had money.

[superconnected]

83. United Church of Christ did this to me and it's why I stopped going.

Everett, WA branch.

[Zhade]

106. Try the cult of Mormonism - they expect no less than 10%.

And they extort you on the daily if you don't pay up - "you're not helping god's work" and other such baseless threats.

(Were that the religious could understand just how baseless these - and all religious - claims are; they wouldn't be getting fleeced.)

[Mike Daniels]

33. But the difference is that one can achieve salvation for free in most other religions

You don't need to donate money to the church to be "saved" or to advance your awareness.

From what I understand, any advancement or achievement of higher understanding in Scientology can only be done by taking courses that are only available through a fee.

Scientology, from what I can tell, is the only religion that was primarily established by its founder from the get go as a profit making source.

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. True, that is a more significant issue

And access to salvation or greater awareness has nothing to do with collecting money to support the church. Yes, you can get salvation/awareness for free from other religions and you can also do the same in Scientology. You just volunteer for the church and you get free services. Much like other religions, in fact.

I'm not defending Scientology, but questioning the claim that they are all that much different from other religions. I don't see it, other than they have different methods and different ideas of salvation/awareness from other religions. You'll still pay money to go to a prayer camp, a retreat, or a revival or whatever in a Christian church, as you would to attend a COS session at whatever level. I see little difference of substance and minor differences in the veneer.

YMMV.

[hlthe2b]

43. I don't know if that is true about Scientology, but granted I am

ignorant on the details... Women and salvation is another area I am unclear on with respect to Scientology. However, everything I have read (and to the extend that info was correct) suggests one must advance through these steps to reach the "salvation or greater awareness," and that comes at a price $$.

[Exultant Democracy]

120. Not steps like Baptisms, conferments and marriages

all of which cost money and are all steps that most Christians of at least a few denominations go through. Come on give me a break saying that this makes Scientology different or uniquely greedy as a religion is absurd.

For serious, the Catholic Church used to sell indulgences... Indulgences come on!

[DemBones DemBones]

Duplicate post.

[DemBones DemBones]

129. Churches do not charge for baptisms or confirmations.

If you get married in a church, there may be a fee to use the church, since they'll have to have the church cleaned after the wedding, but it will be less than renting a hotel ballroom or the like, and you can usually use the church hall for the reception for a low fee.

Traditionally, the groom gives the clergyman who performs the wedding some money afterwards but that's a voluntary gesture, the church doesn't bill you for it, and the clergyman has to be there for the rehearsal as well as the wedding, besides meeting with the couple for premarital counseling before the wedding. We had our rehearsal at night and the wedding at night so the clergyman had to work nights for us.

And it's been over 400 years since Catholic clergy sold indulgences, so it's kind of silly to mention it in discussing Scientology and religion today.

For a wedding, you'll spend a whole lot more on the dresses for the bride and her attendants, the tuxes for the men, flowers for the women to carry and boutonnieres for the men, plus flowers for the altar, ribbons to decorate the pews, the organist, a singer or choir if you have one -- they all expect to be paid a specific amount -- and the reception.

Clergy don't charge to preside at funerals, either, though it's traditional to give them some money afterwards since they usually are at the funeral home the night before as well as doing the funeral and the graveside service. Again, your money will go for the casket, the plot, the undertaker's services, the hearse, flowers, the organist, a singer or choir if you want one, who will all expect to be paid a specific amount. If you want to be cheap and not give the clergyman any money, he won't bill you. The others will. If you buy a tombstone on a payment plan and don't finish paying for it, it will be repossessed from the gravesite. Clergy are the only people who work for free when it comes to rites of passage. As I said, there's no charge for a baptism, but you'll play plenty to have the baby born safely.

[XemaSab]

156. In defense of the hardcore fundies

their salvation is FREE. All you have to really do is ask Jesus to come into your heart.

All that other stuff is sorta optional.

/christianity

[Mike Daniels]

175. I wasn't charged for being baptised in my church

and since I didn't even attend the church I got married in any fees I paid were more akin to hiring staff and renting space (totally reasonable in other words). Even if you don't get married in a church you have to pay for a justice of the peace to perform the ceremony so I'm not sure what your point is.

Again, Scientology is the only religion that I am aware of where you have to pay money or exchange services (volunteering) in order to have access to the "keys" to salvation or higher awareness.

[Dr. Strange]

48. I've always found that to be the most suspicious aspect of Scientology

You have to pay big bucks for the next level of doctrine.

As opposed to Christianity, where they give it away for free--whether you want it or not.

[Joe Bacon]

54. You ever hear of Paul Crouch??????

Paul says you got to engage in sacrificial giving to get your ticket upstairs and never mind that ol Helmet Head used some of the cash to pay off his gay lover...

[Lint Head]

62. Paul Crouch prayed for people to die.

He has threatened people that do not agree with him while he tries to expand his media holdings.

[Cronus Protagonist]

115. Yeah, his fundraising shows are like the WWF - no holds barred!

His wife looks like a wrestler too. He wrings his hands so hard every show that he almost becomes a spontaneous combustion statistic. I'm not saying he's ugly but I'm still trying to figure out if his mother was an Andalusian or a Fresian.

[Joe Bacon]

119. Don't forget Racoon Face Jan Crouch's favorite line

To get to Heaven, you got to be PRAYED up and PAID up.

I will never forgive that candy cotton haired creep for getting money from my aunt that was supposed to go to my dad.

My father died bankrupt thanks to these Christians who talk about Jesus but walk like Ayn Rand.

It's only a matter of time before these crooks destroy Christianity once and for all and I for one can't wait!

[Zhade]

107. Heck, I can do one better - you don't even need a church to be "saved"...

...since it's all made-up stuff anyway.

I sincerely wish people understood they only need what's inside to achieve "salvation". No mythical deities required!

[superkia]

66. If scientology had a larger following, they would probably settle for 10%!

[Miss Chybil]

124. Most Christian churches "recommend" you tithe 10% of your income.

They don't make anybody pay it. If one wants to advance within any culture one must follow the rules of that culture. So, if you want to make it to the upper echelons of a chosen culture and you want to pay the money that is your perogative. If you don't, you don't. Many people who tithe, do so as an act of faith. Admittedly, some churches are a harder sell than others and some will employ subversive, even criminal, tactics in order to seperate pe ople from their money, but they are not all like that. In many, you can drop a dollar in the basket, or you can let it pass you by.

I'm not a churchgoer, or a tither. I'm not even a Christian, but I find it really hard to get a clear picture on anything when it's painted with too broad a brush.

[ComerPerro]

155. all religions offer promises that will never be fulfilled, for a price

edit to remove double "will"

[David__77]

5. You would say that about Unitarians, for instance?

I think it is unhelpful and also inaccurate to lump all religious denominations into one "cult" category.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. I don't know much about them, how does the church pay their bills?

Don't they also require money for rent and utilities like other churches? I'm an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church and I've never paid a dime for it, but even they sell stuff to help pay their bills.

http://www.ulc.net/

[David__77]

15. So if a church is member-financed, it's a "cult?"

Is that what you are saying?

[Cronus Protagonist]

24. All religions are cults

They're all cults by one or more of definitions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 below.

cult /kʌlt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
–adjective
9. of or pertaining to a cult.
10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

[LanternWaste]

73. As you seem to encourage as broad a definition as possible...

As you seem to encourage as broad a definition as possible, I'm sure you commonly refer to all the people you know as 'mammals'.

To maintain intellectual consistency and all... (unless you only do it when its convenient or good copy, then it merely disingenuous-- at best)

[Cronus Protagonist]

116. Listen, mammal

Have you no sense of humor? As a primate, you really ought to have.

[Tab]

18. In every real religion I know

contributions are voluntary. Salvation is not predicated on contributions. Sure, Mormon's are expected to tithe a certain amount, everyone in a christian church may look at you funny if you never put a dollar in the contribution thing, but your salvation won't be denied because you didn't donate.

Scientology is different, because you must pay to advance. No payee, no advancee.

It's more of a psycho-ladder than a "religion". I don't care if it exists, but it shouldn't have non-profit religion status.

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. So you don't like their method of collecting money

I don't see it as being any worse than peer pressure with the public collecting plates in other churches, and perhaps it's better. At least they're honest about what you're buying.

[Tab]

49. Yeah, but they're OFFERINGS

Not requirements.

[Cronus Protagonist]

117. Ah, that's so much better

My bad.

[PassingFair]

144. Depends on what religion AND what country you live in.

In some European countries, you pay or you don't
participate. Period.

Seems fair.

[The Wielding Truth]

30. Sounds more like a university or a club, where you pay

for your degrees.

[divineorder]

148. And when it comes to giving

Most churches are pretty flexible on the amount-usually it's give what you can. As for tithing, Scientology, in order to get to the level to find out about Xenu, you must pay 300,000-no exceptions. You can learn all about your church for a lot less than that, and the only people who give $300,000 are millionaires who can well afford it. Even with tithing, to give $300,000, you must have made $3 million.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. You don't HAVE to pay ANYTHING in the Catholic Church and I'm sure

other mainstream Christian denominations; but you'd feel a freeloader if you didn't give anything, and it often happens that a person forgets to bring any change, or what used to be change. The Royal Bank of Scotland issues pound notes, but you'd be luck to buy a couple of large boxes of matches with a pound now.

[rox63]

58. Unitarian Universalists include Atheists, Pagans, Christians, Jews, etc...

The UU minister that performed my wedding was an atheist. So I would agree that UUs are different than most religions. So are Quakers, who actually have no clergy.

[DemBones DemBones]

133. There are Quakers who have clergy and

pretty traditional Protestant services. Nixon was raised in that type of Quakerism.

[MrModerate]

8. Among other reasons, because they have a rate card . . .

It's tacky. "Salvation" at a specific price.

As an atheist, I consider all religions equally silly. But Scientology is silly, creepy, secretive, obnoxious, thuggish, and greedy. It's a cult run by CPAs.

There may be some value at the lower levels (although cost/benefit analysis might reveal otherwise), but as you get to the higher levels (Jenna Elfman-John Travolta-Tom Cruise) you've got to either check your brain at the door or be deriving some other benefit than spiritual from the association.

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. Sounds very similar to most churches

At the lowest levels, all churches provide some benefits, and at the higher levels, hypocrisy rules supreme.

[LanternWaste]

75. Is that an absolute statement

Is that an absolute statement (i.e., one with no room for qualifications?)?

Just curious because you seem to know much about the age-old relationship between man and religion, and if that's the case, I have some pretty heavy questions for you.

[Ian David]

28. You're just being suppressive and glib. Obviously your body thetans are out of hand.

Evil Lord Xenu: Co-Conspirator in Lunar Landing hoax? Photographic evidence speaks for itself.

[hlthe2b]

31. LOL... I wonder if the "get a brain, Morans" guy has any idea

what an internet icon he has become! LOL His mother would be soooo proud...:rofl:

[Tab]

96. Of course not.

He's a "moran".

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. Actually I'm a Clear

I see you are not, however.

:)

[superconnected]

87. I was getting that exact idea from your posts.

[Ian David]

173. Not even L. Ron Hubbard was Clear, or else he would have lived forever.

It's only the body thetans and engrams that supposedly make us sick and eventually kill us. His death was a repudiation of those therories.

[LanternWaste]

70. I'm sure you realize that there is indeed...

I'm sure you realize that there is a critical and relevant difference in the classical definitions of Cult and Religion...

[endarkenment]

80. Yes there is.

Your religion is a cult and my cult is a religion.

[pnwmom]

84. No one has to donate a certain amount of money to

remain a Catholic. In fact, they could be a member of the Church in good standing and NEVER give any money.

In Scientology, OTOH, it is not possible to proceed to higher "levels" without paying for "courses."

[DemBones DemBones]

135. In fact, many practicing Catholics don't give any money,

leaving the rest of us to pick up the slack. Hispanics are much better givers than Anglos and I imagine black Catholics are, too.

[pnwmom]

89. They're investigating numerous reports of "intimidation and extortion."

They're not "bashing" Scientology.

[Zhade]

105. Scientology is just one of the better-organized ones in that regard.

NT!

[Little Star]

114. I think they teach their flock not to pay taxes.

What other religion does that?

[niyad]

2. there was a case of murder in clearwater years ago involving those nutjobs. a young woman

expressed a desire to leave the cult--two weeks later, she was found dead--half-starved, with ligature marks on her wrists and ankles. however, scientology basically owns clearwater, and it was hell trying to get an investigation.

I give you tom cruise as an example of the cult (try driving in clearwater some afternoon when their "classes" let out--all you see is a bunch of cookie-cutter zombies)

[flyingfysh]

10. it was Lisa McPherson

Look up the Lisa McPherson case on www.xenu.net.

[Quantess]

42. Clearwater, Florida? (no text)

[niyad]

100. yes, clearwater, florida

[LiberalEsto]

7. self deleted

[flyingfysh]

9. you can't blame the rattlesnake on Scientology

It was some other offshoot, but not Scientology. Scientology is guilty of plenty of things, including lots of odd deaths.

See www.xenu.net for lots of details.

[LiberalEsto]

17. You're right, it was Synanon

But they still creep me out

[izzie]

12. In Alaska I knew a lot of them that just got out of paying taxes.

Every one had a 'church' room in their home. Since we paid about 25000 a year to the feds. I was not to happy seeing their 'church' rooms, or hearing about how they got away with it. I never heard them talk like they were religious people just not tax paying people. Lots were also into saving canned food in the garage along with guns but I do not think that had a thing to do with any church either. They all pulled out their little cards for proof they were in this church. Do they still have the no tax thing?

[Critters2]

45. Religious leaders still have to pay income tax

Organizations can be tax exempt, but not individuals. Clergy pay income taxes on salary and honoraria, even those paid by the church. Clergy also pay social security taxes on income and housing. But church buildings and church assets are not taxed. But individual assets are taxes just like everyone else's.

I'm ordained, and I send quarterly payments and a return on April 15. Just like everybody else.

[izzie]

174. And if you lived in the church? These people were fighting

paying taxes when I left Alaska and I do not know if they won their case. The ones we knew said they did not have to pay taxes and did not pay them. I think the feds were fighting this. It was some thing about this home being a church or some crazy thing. Most lived very well and they joked because they had all this extra money every one else did not have. I frankly thoughts they should have to pay tax and back tax also. My thoughts are that the Church should be tax free but no out side building, in town tax any how. I also think that these people said their income was church income and that was why they did not pay. It was back in the 80's so my mind is not to clear on just how it all figured out in their minds. .

[rAVES]

22. Careful what you say about scientology...

Don't want the fair game doctrine coming down on you.

*red laser passes over face* Scientology is a great church full of great men and women.

:scared:

[azurnoir]

23. Back in the '70's I had the "privilage" of working for them

for about a week, in their main office in downtown Minneapolis. How I got there is a story but I was not a member, what I observed was that they had alot of members that were collage grads that were working pretty well paying jobs, sometimes two jobs and living in weekly rent "bum" hotels despite making a goodly amount of money, why? every dime was going to the cult. I answered phones for a couple of those days, 90% of the calls were from collection agency's looking for those same members, when I mentioned how weird that was they took me off answering phones. I also worked for a day in their file room, they kept files on even casual contacts, their families and all info about them. It was creepy.


edited for spelling

[DeSwiss]

26. I hope the is the start of the....

...downfall of these nutjobs.

K&R!!!

[endarkenment]

27. I'll defend it: not different than other organized religions.

"I had a co-worker once who got immersed into Scientology (by way of her fiancé, if I remember correctly). She seemed brainwashed. I did some research and found the "church" (I use the term loosely), aside from being founded by a science fiction writer, charges you money to advance to "the next level" of Thetan or whatever it is. You have to undergo certain sessions to cleanse yourself or whatever to advance, and often are encourage to go on cruises or to conventions, all of which cost money, and to advance to the highest levels you have to spend more money to get to the inner circles. It really does seem like a scam."

Why is scientology less valid a religion than for example catholicism? (Or most any others that are in the religion business?)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. Except you don't have to pay money to find out what the other religions are about...

Nobody makes you put money in the collection plate to be allowed to read the next chapter of the Bible or the Koran. There can be an element of brainwashing present in other organized religions; and some sects may do their best to make you feel guilty if you don't give them money. And some, once you express an interest in learning about their beliefs, will not leave you alone until they've been allowed to dunk your head in the water. But they will explain their beliefs to you free of charge.

[zalinda]

65. And so does Scientology

You may attend services without paying anything. You don't even have to buy the books, you can get them from most libraries.

What some don't understand is that Scientology is a young church, which means that they don't have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets. Take a look at how long the Catholic church has been operating, they can give services out for free, but it doesn't stop them from asking for more. You can say the same thing about many other churches, if they have so much in assets why do they still ask for more money. Any group or organization needs money to operate. What Scientology doesn't have is longevity, like the other more "traditional" religions. These religions have had many, many people leave their estates to their church, this has not happened with Scientology, because it's too new.

While Scientologist may bother you in public places, they don't go from house to house like Christians do, and bother you while you want to sleep in on a Saturday morning.

zalinda

[Shakespeare]

69. Not for the upper-level OT stuff, they won't. n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

76. I went to a meeting place once, to find out what they believed...

They would not tell me anything except that they had a machine that would help people become "clear". They promised to explain more at my first class which would only cost $5.

At the time, I was dating a guy who had been into Scientology, but left. He was thinking about getting back into it. I was open to the experience of learning something new. But instead of being offered straight answers, I was given a test, and moved from waiting area to waiting area. The people working there were all extremely energetic and glassy-eyed...not necessarily a "bad thing", but remarkably similar to a Pentecostal service I once attended.

Perhaps unrelated, but nevertheless interesting: 20 years after I stopped dating the guy...who was emotionally abusive...I found his name on a local child sex offenders registry.

[superconnected]

93. Wrong, I've only met scientologists on my porch, knocking on my door

with copies of cybernetics. That's how I got my copy - it was free as they gave it to me. They used to come around every 6 months.

[Shakespeare]

95. btw, it's "Dianetics," not "cybernetics."

Dianetics is a made-up word, doncha know.

[superconnected]

137. I couldn't remeber. thanks for the correction.

I have the copy at home somewhere in my bookshelf still.

[XemaSab]

158. Are you KIDDING ME????

Have you ever been to LA??? They've taken over many, many LARGE buildings, like old hospitals, and they are omnipresent.

You can't tell me they don't have BUCKETS of money.

[KaptBunnyPants]

162. Wrong. It costs $380,000 to achieve salvation.

They don't ask for money. It's required to advance in the Church, in order to make themselves "clear". You may enter yourself into a slave contract in lieu of payment, where you may work 18-20 hours a day and be fed bread and water. They take you into a compound or onto one of their Sea Orgs to prevent escape, and lock dissenters in cages. Should you leave the church, all of your old friends are ordered to harass you and spread false rumors about you, and this is official church policy. They also deliberately lie about the secret message behind their church, because they knew if people understood that they believe an intergalactic space emperor committed genocide on our planet and that the ghosts of his victims are the cause of all suffering then they would be rightly mocked. Some other religions may be scams as well, but that doesn't excuse the crimes of the false religion Scientology, which was started as a deliberate scam. I won't let it gain the validity that time brings without going on record as being opposed to this wicked organization.

http://www.bible.ca/scientology-price-list.htm
http://www.clambake.org/

[harpboy_ak]

164. KaptBunnyPant,s you got it right

My experience with them was that they have their own reality. For me, that reality conflicted too much with actual reality, and with the draw from family and home town. They prefer that their recruits disconnect from family and friends that express any disapproval or question any of the cult's ideology. I was just too much of a skeptic about any religion that wants to you disconnect from everyone you know, and charges you thousands of dollars to "advance" to become a supposedly superior being. Their virulent attacks and harassment of critics (which continues to this day) was the last straw.

Don't give them your address! Even after you leave, they keep you on their damn mailing list because Elron commanded them to never remove any recruited name from the list. I was getting mail 30 years later, until I moved and left no forward.

[Solon]

165. The Church of Scientology is anything but poor...

it, if anything, a rich people's religion, to put it bluntly, and being young is no excuse for charging so much for "salvation" either.

Does this:



Look like a picture of a poor religion?

This was a picture taken, by me, in one of the most affluent areas of the St. Louis Metro Area, where multi million dollar mansions are all over the place.

[Mike Daniels]

176. A poor religion can't afford a recruitment center in Dupont Circle in Wash, DC either

but the Scientologists have one there (looks like it was a pretty mansion in its former life).

When the majority of your high profile believers are A-list celebrities you aren't starving for money in any world.

[Nihil]

177. What an interesting building ...

I have no axe to grind in the Scientology debate but am curious about
that building ... it looks like it has a square & compasses on the
top lintel and some odd colour staining on the door wall (not to mention
the tacky new label of course) ... did the Scientologists buy it after
it had been abandoned or something?

[Lilith Velkor]

180. They bought it from the Masons.

[Zhade]

109. I think the poster was thinking more of its validity in terms of reality.

In other words, since they're all just baseless collections of unsupported assertions, Scientology is as valid as Catholicism - which is to say, not at all when it comes to matters of fact.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

113. Except that the name "Scientology" makes it sound as if

scientific research has been done to validate their belief.

The fundy Christian religions just say "Screw science...God will be pissed if you believe in it."

[Warren Stupidity]

146. er em, Christian Scientists? nt.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

147. Yeah, them too, though they don't take the Bible literally.

And as far as I know, they don't object to science as we define it.

However, they do seem to have odd beliefs about illness and healing.

[Exultant Democracy]

122. Yeah cause Baptisms, confrimations, and weddings are all free, and they aren't Catholic Sacraments

wait no they cost mega bucks and they are Catholic Sacraments, funny how selectively people can see things.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

142. Baptisms and confirmations are free...

And you don't have to be married to be a member of a church.

[Exultant Democracy]

187. Yeah so everyone doesn't kick in so that everyone can receive the sacraments

sure sure.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

190. The cost of the sacraments is minimal compared to the cost of

other things churches spend money on. I'd be willing to bet they cost less than the weekly cleaning supplies.

While people are encouraged (and sometimes harassed) to give money to a church, it is not a requirement to receive the sacraments.

[Shakespeare]

56. Last time I checked, other churches don't keep "dead agent files" on those who disagree with them..

(those are used to blackmail and bully people into silence)...nor do they sue the shit out of you for publishing info on their "proprietary doctrine."

There are several worlds of difference between $cientology and other religions.

Oh, and none of the other major religions were started on a bar bet.

[endarkenment]

77. You might want to check into the history of a lot of other religions.

Or qualify that with 'established large organized religions no longer have to resort to this sort of nonsense'.

There are few difference between scientology and other religions. Religion, especially in our benighted country, is Big Business.

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition.

[Shakespeare]

86. Oh, I'm quite aware of the history.

And I stand by my previous statements.

If you're going to play Derridian little games saying that big business = religion, I think you'll have a bit of trouble with that.

And in fact, I'm so sure that the other posters are also sufficiently informed on religious history that they don't really need the kind of qualifiers you suggest.

[endarkenment]

91. I said religion is big business

not big business is religion.

Religion is a huge business.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html

I don't know what you folks are smoking, but it is clear from over here that scientology is just trying to muscle into the religion racket and claim a piece of the action.

[harun]

178. Institutionalized Religion (Chuch's) are big business, not

religion itself.

[endarkenment]

181. point taken.

institutional religions prey (pun intended) on the religiously afflicted.

[EFerrari]

153. Because most other religions preach charity towards others

(whether they mean it or not) and don't teach you to cut off all ties with non followers or critics.

The tactics they use are those of cults, I'm afraid.

[pingzing58]

29. All religions have their origins in foundational narratives (stories of faith, myths, legends,

history, people, places and things). The purpose of religion is to help human beings deal with the questions of why created things are, how they work, and how they came to be (our foundational narratives - stories, if you will - give us insight into these questions). Religion helps us deal with the great questions of the meaning of life, the reason for death, and, (perhaps) life after death. Religion helps us deal with transcendant realities; i.e., God and Angels, Heaven and Hell, for Jews, Christians and Moslems; and, other Gods and realities for other religions. That is why I respect all religions. BUT, I believe that religions and their laws, regulations, teachings and practices, must develop, evolve, grow, interpret revelation in light of new experiences and information, if they are to remain relevant. The Church of Scientology has given many people the narratives and psychological tools needed to allow the individual to experience success, prosperity, and well being in their lives (some people call it brainwashing others psychotherapy for voluntary behavioral inhibition to the familiar or its opposit). Just like any gnostic religion, Scientology, requires that you pay to receive the next level of information that will lead to your success. While we can critique this system, perhaps the leaders of Scientology are being challenge to present a better system for the delivery of the knowledge they hold secret and how to fund the church and its mission.

[Barrett808]

32. As "Bob" said to L. Ron Hubbard: "They may be Pink, but their money is green."

"You'll pay to know what you really think."

http://www.subgenius.com

[MADem]

34. But....but .... but.... isn't that "Ladies' Heartthrob" feller, Tom Cruise, the

Assistant Pope or something?

And isn't that other slightly chunky 'sex symbol' from Saturday Night Fever a big player in the outfit, too? To say nothing of the Dieting Lady from Cheers?

Why, if those folks all think it's swell, why SURELY (don't call me Shirley) it must be a FANTASTIC organization!!! I can't understand why EVERYONE isn't joining!!!! After all, actors surely (Don't call me Shirley) MUST know best!

These Brussels sprouts should stop beating up on these 'poor folk.' Why, believing that you are aliens and brainwashing people, well, that's totally NORMAL, ain't it? It's as normal as prancing around with a red string on your wrist and giving dough to a con man!!!!

:rofl:

[hlthe2b]

39. Travolta is the one that bugs me...

Yeah, I know all about his multiple jets and landing strips outside his house and other CO2 producing/global busting practices. But, I still find it hard to place him among other Scientologists.

[madrchsod]

53. yes he is...i used to work where they printed

every Scientology publication. there was a separate issue devoted to tom cruise reaching the highest what ever it`s called...ya he`s bigger than johnny boy

[Celebration]

35. not defending Scientology

but they had to investigate it for TEN YEARS??? That seems like a really long time to come up with something. I guess we'll just have to see the evidence.

Tom Cruise is a bit much, but I like Priscilla Presley and John Travolta.

[Critters2]

41. That prosecutor needs to keep his dog inside. nt

[hlthe2b]

44. why is that?

:shrug:

[Critters2]

47. The clams don't like dogs.

http://www.solitarytrees.net/pickets/sp992a.htm

[LibDemAlways]

46. I used to work with a woman who once jumped off

a yacht in LA Harbor to escape scientologists who were holding her captive. They are a dangerous, looney bunch.

[zalinda]

60. I don't believe it for a minute

After being in Scientology for 6 years, I left without ANY incident. I just walked away, even after I had worked for them for 4 years, off and on. I have never had one bit of trouble. They knew where I lived, I was still connected to other Scientologists who were in good standing.

Many people will tell you something "exciting" that happened to them, especially if it's something that you will never be able to substantiate. But, when you don't like some company or group or person, you will believe just about any thing you hear about them that is negative.

zalinda

[hlthe2b]

68. So, what was wrong with you....

that they didn't want you?










Kidding, just kidding! :evilgrin: Seriously, it is good to have someone provide some balanced perspective. 'Glad you posted.

[LibDemAlways]

71. You can choose not to believe it, but the woman was

dead serious. She provided names and dates. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen to others.

[niyad]

118. lisa mcpherson, to give one example, wasn't as lucky as you.

[madrchsod]

51. Scientology and religion have nothing in common.

to think that they have anything in common with scientology is naive. scientology is a cult not a religion.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

55. I guess you can't belong to a tithing church if you're unemployed, then.

I think all Abrahamic religions are cults and so is Scientology. I've seen glazed Jews for Jesus too. They are a total fraud--a front group for the Southern Baptists to convert Jews.

I can't belong to a church that demands ten percent of my income.

Unitarians are NOT a cult. Please do your research. They believe in freedom of thought and draw from many world religions. www.uua.org

I once tried to join a Classical Reform Jewish Temple. The rabbi wanted me and my friend to convert, but the Board of Directors didn't want us to join because we were both unemployed. We offered to do volunteer work at the shul, but that wasn't good enough for a bunch of rich doctors on the Board, I guess. So we didn't join. Nor did we convert.


I'm still a Unitarian-Universalist. They can't throw you out!!!! They have no creed.

[eridani]

157. Why not? What's 10% of nothing? n/t

[slackmaster]

57. Scientology declared me a "Suppressive Person" level 2 once

It's one of my greatest achievements.

[hlthe2b]

59. So how does one become a suppressive person, level 2?

[slackmaster]

63. I called them out on the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup using my real name

:hide:

Referred to them repeatedly as a criminal mind-control cult.

[hlthe2b]

64. LOL... well, I guess that would do it..

Per another poster, keep your pets safely inside and in view. I'd never before heard they would go after the doggies and kitties, but apparently....:shrug:

[slackmaster]

67. They're one of the reasons I adopted a "shoot first" policy for home invaders

Let them try to take me.

[Barrett808]

85. Nice. I got a cease-and-desist order from Helena Kobrin, aka "The Kobra"

Because I'd posted the Operating Thetan docs from the Fishman affidavit on my site. Fortunately, they lost their case against Karin Spaink, and that shut them up for awhile.

[slackmaster]

98. They got "Spainked" all right

:D

[Barrett808]

128. It was sweet

}(

[onager]

182. Ah, the good old days!

a.r.s. sure was a lot of fun, especially after the $cientology trolls discovered (gasp) criticism of their "church" and started spamming the place. The web page dedicated to Helena The $ciento Lawyer was really hilarious.

A few of the dumber clams even blundered into alt.atheism and tried to paint themselves as victims of discimination. "Just like you atheists and agnostics." They didn't last long, but it sure was a...

:rofl:

For people who think the Belgians are starchy with the $cientos, go to one of the anti-cult sites like Operation Clambake and read about what happened to them in the Netherlands during the 1990s.

$cientology tried its usual tactic of frivolous lawsuits and legal arm-twisting to attack a Dutch ISP, xs4all, and a very popular Dutch web journalist, Karen Spaink.

This was another case where the "Holy Secret (Commercial) Texts" of $cientology were being posted in various places.

After the Dutch judge tossed their case right out of court, the $cientos walked out into a beautiful Amsterdam evening...to find Dutch citizens armed with projectors, projecting their Holy Secret (Commercial) Texts all over the sides of buildings.

[Shakespeare]

74. Then you'll enjoy this.

Originally published in the old Spy Magazine--the writer is a good friend of mine (and the $cientologists still harass the shit out of him). He's also been interviewed multiple times on TV about his investigative work on the "church."

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/buy-a-bridge.htm

[Lint Head]

61. Facts: L. Ron Hubbard, who created Scientology, was a lousy

science fiction writer, on the run from Federal Treasury agents and lied about his WWII service. He said that the quickest and easiest way to get rich was to create a religion. Xenu is the evil one that forced our ancestors souls to watch Hitler on a movie screen and brainwashed them into the present problems of which we must be purged. I won't mention the part about blowing up volcanoes
with nuclear weapons and coming from a planet made out of anti freeze.:nuke: ( Anti freeze is a recent invention not something that was created naturally in the past.) Xenu is said to exist today and only the true Scientology leaders know where he is. Apparently hidden in a jail cell somewhere on a mountain. That's how absurd this greedy propaganda cult is.:crazy:

[superconnected]

88. Wrong!!!!!

Everything you say is true except the lously science fiction writer part. He writes good science ficition, cybernetics aside.

[bemildred]

108. It bothers me that "Xenu" is almost like "Unix" spelled backwards.

What is interesting about scientology is that it is a big successful religion that got started recently. Anyone who is aquainted with the early L. Ron Hubbard will not mistake him for Jesus. But otherwise, scientology is just like like any other organized religion, just a lot more mercenary.

[Nevernose]

145. He ws a GREAT science fiction writer for his time

Okay, his "religion" is a poorly written piece of fiction (it's not science or speculative fiction, though, IMO -- it's fantasy), but his "straight" work was often pretty good.

[Prophet 451]

168. That's not a fact

Your evaluation of Hubbard's writing skills is an opinion, not a fact.

[eppur_se_muova]

184. He made a bet with John W. Campbell that he could invent a religion ...

Campbell believed in a lot of 'parapsychology', or 'psi' claims. Hubbard insisted it was bunk, and told Campbell that people were so gullible that they could be convinced to believe anything. Somehow :eyes: religion was brought into the discussion, and the idea was put forth that if so many people believed in religion, there must be some truth to it. Hubbard countered that he could create a religion out of nothing and convert people into true believers.

No word as to whether he collected on the bet.

[mitchum]

78. I can never decide whether Scientology or Mormonism is the ultimate American religion...

of course, I don't have a very high opinion of Scientology, Mormonism, or "American values"

[K8-EEE]

90. It's totally amazing how much those two religions have in common

Under the Banner of Heaven is an amazing book on Mormon history -- Joseph Smith was so much like L. Ron Hubbard, with the planets and all that....his magic "seer" stones were kind of like e-meters!

[mitchum]

94. Indeed...grifter Smith was as enamored of 19th century SciFi...

as grifter Hubbard was of the 20th century variety.
"Under The Banner of Heaven" is a great book

[superconnected]

79. Wow, sounds like the amway of religion.

"charges you money to advance to "the next level" of Thetan or whatever it is. You have to undergo certain sessions to cleanse yourself or whatever to advance, and often are encourage to go on cruises or to conventions, all of which cost money, and to advance to the highest levels you have to spend more money to get to the inner circles. It really does seem like a scam."

[DarkTirade]

136. That's because they're both cults of money

They use a lot of the same tactics too. I'm just glad my parents got out when they did... otherwise they'd be even poorer than they are now.

Of course, what drove them out of Amway was because they got so poor that they ended up doing office work for their upline. When my mom was doing his books, she discovered that only 3% of his income actually came from Amway, the other 97% came from selling the promotional books and tapes and whatnot to schmucks like her.

She was still so brainwashed that it took a while to get out even after that. And she's not a gullible woman. Once you're in a cult, it's not easy to get out.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

81. Well it is ABOUT FUCKING TIME.

Audit THAT, you ignorant Scientology gits.

[truebrit71]

97. Agreed.....fucking raving loonies....

...

[shenmue]

99. About time

People have died because these mf's made them quite using their medications. I hope more of them go to jail.

[IndianaGreen]

101. L. Ron Hubbard made a bet that he could create a religion from scratch that fools would follow

He won the bet!

[mitchum]

125. And he was particularly cunning in targeting entertainers as marks...

since they are people who attain wealth, not through intelligence, but through genetics, "talent", and a large measure of luck. Combine that with the narcissism and insecurity common to entertainers...they are just primed to be fleeced.

[TexasBushwhacker]

126. Depending on who you ask ....

the same could be said (minus the bet) about all religions. Are there any religions, really, that recognize other religions as valid? Don't they all, to one degree or another, operate on the we're right and they're wrong assumption? The problem for Scientology in this case is that it is NOT recognized as a religion in Belgium. It's been recognized as a religion in the US since 1993.

FWIW, I'm an atheist, so all religions are pretty much equally goofy to me, but as Americans, we at least have the freedom to practice (or not) whatever religion we choose.

[Quantess]

102. This is about a woman who was tormented and harrassed

after writing an expose' of Scientology.
http://www.lermanet.com/paulette-cooper/

[Shakespeare]

103. No, the Paulette Cooper debacle happened here in our country.

They're investigating separate goings-on that happened in Belgium.

[Quantess]

121. I know. I meant "this" about the link I added.

The stories aren't related, but Paulette Cooper's story is pretty shocking.

Scientology certainly does seem like a crime-organization.

[ericgtr]

127. Mine as well be

the church of Fonzie to me, the stylings of Arthur Fonzerelli and all of his splendor are just as realistic as L Ron Hubbards bullshit fiction. What a crock with a bunch of high profile pimps.

[Quantess]

130. Arnie Lerma has a very comprehensive website about Scientology:

http://www.lermanet.com/

Lots to read!

[Irreverend IX]

140. How many religions...

Build dossiers of dirt on as many people as they can? The core of Scientology practices is "auditing," where you get interrogated by higher-level church members in order to exorcise your thetans or whatever. During these auditing sessions, you are expected to cough up every bad or questionable thing you or anyone you know has ever done. Bill Clinton's college roommate joined the church, and you can bet they now know a lot more about him than whether he inhaled.

If you want more info, look up "Sea Org" and "Operation Snow White." Scientology is a powerful criminal syndicate that needs to be wiped off the earth.

[mia]

141. I know 3 people who have been Scientologists for 30+ years.

I knew each of them before they became involved and they are all well-educated, ethical people. In the early 80's I looked into some of the mini-courses because of them. I took the basic communication course and the "Student Hat". Both were $20.00 each and presented basic, simple truths that have stayed with me to this day. I didn't like auditing, however. Here's where you talk about things that seem to "block your awareness" or cause the Emeter (similar to a lie detector) to register a charge. The auditor takes notes as questions urge you to go deeper into the experience. Pretty soon I felt very uncomfortable I said "that's none of your business" and was sent to the "Ethics" department. That was the end of Scientology for me, even though I found it to be an interesting experience.





edit for spelling

[pingzing58]

143. gnosticism at its best. been around since the time of Jesus.

[Quantess]

167. Is it true that the Emeter gives out a low electrical charge?

Sort of like a low-powered electric shock?

[mia]

189. I don't think so.

I didn't feel anything.

[defendandprotect]

149. It's a cult which got IRS approval as a "religion" thru very questionabel circumstances . . . .

And almost everyone who has investigated them -- in the states, as well -- have had to face really outrageously aggressive responses --

One campaign by Scientology went on for almost a year in full page ads in the NY Times -- !!!

Among many other questionable responses from Scientology ---

[ButterflyBlood]

150. Only difference between Scientology and the Mafia...

is the Mafia are honest about what they are.

About time this happened.

[Socal31]

152. Fundamental Religion......

is very scary (X-tians, muslims, jews, etc..) Cults are even worse! (Benny-hinn, Mormons, those crazy Evangelicals..see Jesus Camp).

[ComerPerro]

154. and once this is done, we can crack down on the Catholic Church, right?

[eridani]

159. I'll make no apology for Scientology

To rid us of our engrams they'll be bound
Of profits, not a smidgeon
They are tax-free, a religion
And they'll cure you if you only stick around.

Chorus:
Oh, we shall be clear, L Ron will make us clear
We're hopin' and we're prayin' for the light
L Ron Hubbard pray for me
That my soul enlightened be
That's imprisoned in the engrammatic night.

Marijuana, meditation, LSD and masturbation
Come and go and fade so quickly from the scene
But Dianetics is here to stay
And if you can afford to pay
Your dirty mind will soon be brainwashed clean.

Chorus:

Oh, our hearts are so much brighter
And our wallets so much lighter
Our consciences and bank accounts are clear!
Stack the greenbacks in the cupboard
Of ol' Mother L Ron Hubbard
He was just a struggling author yesteryear

Chorus:

Tune: Ballad of Jesse James

[JMDEM]

160. If you've ever tangled with them, you'll never take them lightly again

These suckers are mean.

What scares me is that they have a whole bag of really dirty tricks, and I mean really nasty dirty lowdown terrible despicable tricks. And those same tricks seem to be in Karl Rove's bag too.

[Tab]

172. I wonder if Karl Rove is a Scientologist?

That would explain a lot...

[kurth]

161. It's a cult and a criminal gang

[sleipnir]

163. A capitalist religion if ever one existed.

Suckering many into worshiping for the profit of the few.

Pure, unadulterated capitalism.

[Prophet 451]

169. Because I think it sets a dangerous precedent

Understand, I hold no brief for Scientology but bringing charges based on the internal practices of the church and it's beliefs is an area I don't think the law would be wise to step into except under very extreme circumstances.

Yes, Scientology charges for reaching the next level (or whatever they're called). How is that different from the televangelist who proclaims God will bless anyone who sends him money.

Yes, Scientology keeps files on people who leave (or so I'm told). How is that any different from the Mormon tradition of total disassociation with those who leave?

If you start bringing charges against a religion, no matter how deranged it might be, you open a can of worms that I think the law would be sensible to avoid.

[Crayson]

170. This is EUROPE --> European law applies. Period.

Remember! American laws and standards DON'T apply.
Of course Americans are entitled to an oppinion, but European law applies. Period.

Let me state some European facts:
- Europe is much more secular than America and that's just fine. Religion does not interfere in your normal daily life.
- You, as an individual, may believe whatever you want.
- You may donate money to whomever you want.
- A religion is not allowed to have any "Power" over you except what YOU allow them, else you just walk away! Everything else is coercion. Means you, as a believer, are in control. if you follow a religion freely (or because you're head's been messed with), that's ok, but if you want out, they have to let you go. Period.
- If you follow one of the state's official religions (official meaning that the church also does social work from which the state profits) then you have to state your religion on your tax form and pay church taxes. Same here: Just state you don't follow said religion anymore and you're done and out.
- And finally an "open" religion has no secrets and allows discussion with critics.


Now:
- Scientology is NOT an official state religion (because it does nothing which helps the social problems of a state) and considered a sect.
- Scientology does not let you out easily.
- Scientology focuses on wealthy people only. Do they take in the poor and shelter them and feed them?
- Scientology tries to take in people with influence in politics and undermine the state
- Scientology is not a believe but rather an organisation/club/secret congregation like skull&bones.

For all these reasons, Scientology is considered a sect, and not a religion.

Yes, this sets a precedent, but not a dangerous one, in my opinion, but a good one.

Personally I'm an atheist, but I can very well see the difference between a religion, where all believers are equal and which genuinely wants to help people cope with every day's life and one that wants to have power over its followers and tries to bend their will.

The law suit stated here is VERY WORLDLY, it is not against the BELIEVE, but against the worldly practices of how they gather money and blackmail people!!
It is not against the poor believer at the base of their hierarchy, but against those in control at the top!

[Prophet 451]

171. Dude, I AM European

Specifically, a Brit.

[Buns_of_Fire]

179. After reading this entire thread...

I have come to the conclusion that I hope the Flying Spaghetti Monster comes down and smites all false religions with his noodly appendage.

Ramen!

[Tab]

185. I'd object to the term "noodly appendage"

except you specified the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Neat loophole you created. :)

[sarcasmo]

186. I will Nom this but will also keep my mouth shut.