Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Turkish military issues warning

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 03:57 PM
Original message
Turkish military issues warning
Source: Al Jazeera

The chief of Turkey's military has said that secularism is under attack by "centres of evil".

The warning came one day before the expected election to the presidency of Abdullah Gul, the candidate of the ruling AK Party who has a background in political Islam.

General Yasar Buyukanit said in a note on the military's website: "Our nation has been watching the behaviour of separatists who cannot digest the unitary structure of the Turkish Republic and centres of evil who are trying to systematically erode the country's secular structure."

He said the army will not "be deterred by such attacks" and will continue to defend the basic tenets of the republic set out by the country's founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1923.


Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1DD1277F-7066-4C29-A0C9-C3821415E76A.htm



And BBC too, Turkish army issues new warning,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6965806.stm
'Gen Yasar Buyukanit did not name those who were "trying to corrode the secular nature of the Turkish Republic".'

Not good omen for the next future. I hope for rational and balanced management of this passage in Turkey.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Me too
And it does scare me...much more than any 'terra' threat here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, it's Gul's move. Let's see what he does.
A lot is riding on that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-28-07 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. It's Gul's move indeed. And he was a bet during the elections...
...a bet that AKP won.
I'd prefer another President, someone who could unite Turkey, not divide. The fact that Gul must be President at any cost is something suspect to me.

But AKP won the elections and it was clear to all Turkish people that GUL was part of the deal.
So the preventive Army's meddling is unacceptable, anti-democratic.

If Gul turns to islamism/theocracy there will be time for the military to intervene.
And anyway Europe will reject any bid in that case - which to Gul means many years of efforts wasted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. "Centres of evil?"
That's pretty damn strong language to apply ahead of time to a (likely) president-elect. Wow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Turkey just keeps getting more interesting doesn't it?
Edited on Mon Aug-27-07 05:00 PM by mainegreen
That EU bid is looking less and less likely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yet Another Military Coup?
Whenever Turkey elects a leader the military doesn't like, the military automatically dissolves the government. It happened at least three times before. I wonder how the Turkish people put up with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And you wonder why France is against them joining the EU ?
/sarc

..not really
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-28-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. "Ex-Islamist set to become secular Turkey's president", titles AFP!
"Gul's election will be a major victory for the Islamist-rooted AKP against army-backed secularist forces who blocked the minister's first bid for the presidency in April on grounds of his Islamist roots.

Opponents charge that the AKP, the moderate off-shoot of a banned Islamist party, has a secret agenda to replace Turkey's secular order with an Iranian-style regime and will have a free hand to implement its plan with Gul at the presidency.

Hardline secularists are also irritated by the fact that Gul's wife wears the Islamic headscarf, which they see as a symbol of defiance of the secular system.

The head of the Turkish army, which played a major role in blocking Gul's first run for the presidency, on Monday warned of "centres of evil" seeking to undermine the country's constitutional regime."

AFP, 28 August, http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/070828051746.4q5fvw2w.html

The French don't miss any chance to remind people of Gul's islamist political past!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-29-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Lay off the Kool-aid
As foreign minister Gul was a key player in getting Turkey an accession date for entry in the EU. His party has also done a lot to help the minority ethnic/religious groups in the country gain more freedoms.

Unless you think runaway militant atheist nationalism is the right direction for Turkey, Gul is an improvement, trust me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
youngdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. They support it.
The Turkish public is largely secular, with a small, vocal, growingly powerful religious population.

The Turks by and large view themselves as European, and don't want Islamic law, dress or any such thing.

Gul is as welcome among Turks as Bush is among reasonable Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well that is a nice one dimensional view.
The Turkish Military is also the guardian of the secular Turkish state. In that role I reluctantly support their unwillingness to allow Turkey to slide into the sort of theocratic nightmare that Iran has become.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. At least it is the military doing that job
While it would be better if you had more democratic means of keeping theocracy at bay and keeping the government secular at least the guys keeping the theocrats in line have the most and biggest guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-27-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It is a shitty situation and the military has behaved
in both the distant and recent past with incredible brutality. The situation is very complex.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-28-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. The Turkish Army the protecting of "Secular" Turkey, like the SS protected Secular Germany..
The problem is the Turkish army is controlled by the same elites who have Controlled Turkey since ethe early 1920s, where those elites massacred the Armenians in Turkish controlled Armenian and Drove out the Greeks out of right is now South Western Turkey (Where the Greeks had lived since the Time of Ancient Greece and were the Majority till driven out in 1922). Since that time the Turkish Army has maintained what is "Turkish" i.e. backing the Nazis during WWII, and seeking support of the US against "Communists" Rebels that appeared in Turkey as the Nazi collapses in 1945.

In the 1960s the Turkish Army put down a liberal reform movement, for the Elite did not like the reforms (It was Socialist/Liberal in Nature) and now that Communist is dead worldwide, any reform of Turkey is coming from the Islamic groups, thus the opposition of the Army to "Islam".

I am sorry, Turkey, is like a lot of third world countries, need reforms, starting with land reform, i.e. taking the large estate and giving it to the peasants, and urban reform, straightening Unions and other reforms to protect the lower classes of people. Right now the only party responding to the needs of th poor and Working Class is the Islamic Parities (The Communists presently are dead) and thus the opposition to Islamic Parties. This is less a fight over Religion then it is of Class, the lower classes backing the Reform/Religious Parties the Upper classes looking to the Army to preserve they status and "rights" within that society.

My point do NOT get hang up on the Religious connotations of the groups in Turkey, Religion is NOT is dispute. The issue is how much power should the Poor be able to exercise through Democracy, given the terrible track record of the Elites (and th Army) at protecting the poor and working Class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrin_73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-28-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Umm... the Greeks were not the majority of western
Edited on Tue Aug-28-07 08:15 PM by Orrin_73
Turkey in 1920, you are wrong on that.
The Turks were the majority in anatolia in 1920 and if you even go back to 1700 the Turks made half the population in the balkans (bulgaria, yugoslavia, romania and hungary).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-28-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Expulsion of the Greek, South Western Turkey
Edited on Tue Aug-28-07 09:31 PM by happyslug
Now below is a very prejudice site, but it does give some nasty facts about the Greeks in Turkey between 1908 and 1924:

The Treaty of Lausanne ended the Greek-Turkish war and imposed the unjust and mandatory exchange of 300,000 Turks from Greece for the 1,400,000 Greeks that survived the holocaust.

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/HellenicGenocide.htm

A more neutral sites that states both sides did ethic cleansing, and point out the Greeks said Eastern anatolia was majority Greek, the Turks claim it was Majority Turkish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_%281919-1922%29

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/GrecoTurkishWar1919_22.html

My point is the same group that supported Kemel and his war with the Greeks are the same groups that oppose reform in Turkey. There is some debate as to the number of Greeks in Various parts of Anatolia in 1900, but the coast had had large Greeks populations for centuries (The Turks had invaded Anatolia in the Center from what is now Iraq and used that base to take over the rest of Anatolia, but all of this centuries before the 20th century). Kemel threw out these Greeks, minorities in Asia Minor as a whole, but had lived in Anatolia for Centuries (And in the area in dispute in 1920, maybe even the Majority in those areas).

Part of the problem was Greek desire to expand Greece to include Western Anatolia and Constantinople, both ancestry homes to the Greeks (The Modern Greeks trace themselves more to the Byzantium Empire of the Middle ages then to Ancient Greece). Given this desire to re-establish the extend of Greece as it was in the Middle ages (i.e The Byzantium Empire) Greece has long have eyes on Constantinople and Eastern Anatolia. While this has been while known since the 1830s, the extent of the Ethnic Cleansing of Anatolia between 1900 and 1924 is huge.

The Greek Claims (as I pointed out in my previous comment) was on Eastern Anatolia, NOT all of Asia Minor (Anatolia). Even the Greeks accepted that the Turks had been the Majority of Asia Minor (Anatolia) for Centuries. The issues in 1920 was Eastern Anatolia and the Rest of the Coastline. All had huge Greek Populations and subject to increasing Turkish discrimination from the 1830s onward.

As to populations in the Balkans prior to 1800, I would NOT trust ANY report. The Ottoman Empire was like most Empires, a Strong Centralized population (In the case of Turkey, Central Asia Minor) from which it derives it troops, and huge areas under very nominal rule (i.e. pay taxes to the Empire but otherwise left alone). The Turks did do some Colonization, but these were minor in significance. Turkey by 1700 was already viewed as passed its prime (The rapid conquest of Hungary by Austria from Turkey in the late 1600s showed Europe how weak Turkey was). The Ottomans tried to inflate its numbers but no one believed the Turks. The Balkans stayed Turkish do more to Russian and Austrian other concerns (i.e. each other, Prussia, France and Sweden among others) than any real desire for the Balkans to stay Turkish. When the effect of the French Revolution hit the Balkans it lead to the slow Independence of today's states in the Balkans, starting with Greece in 1830 (Through Napoleon Invasion of Egypt and Turkish Palestine occurred earlier but had no affect on the Turks in the Balkans). These movements in the Balkans to Independence would NOT have been possible if the Turks in the Balkans were anything more than nominal in numbers (and then tied in with collecting the Taxes for the Sultan in Constantinople than determining local decisions).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrin_73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-29-07 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Turks have been a majority of anatolia
since the mid 13th century. The reason why they were the majority in anatolia was the constant immigration from central asia and iran that lasted till 1800. The resetlement of the Turks in the balkans by the ottomans started 1336, mainly turks from western anatolia were settled. In Bulgaria for instance the turks made 55-60% of the population until 1878, even bulgarian historians say that the turks were the majority. That also applies to macedonia, kosovo, southern serbia and northern greece were they made 70% of the population. For instance there were more then 80 mosques in belgrade already in 1680 and I dont even talk about other cities in the balkans. The turks were more then 35% of the population of southern greece before 1820. These are all facts that are cited by turkish and foreign historians. These are about turks from anatolia then there are the turkic pechenegs and cumans who were already there before the turkish conquest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechenegs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-29-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. The Greek-Turk Relationship between 1204 to 1700 is complex.
Edited on Wed Aug-29-07 09:35 AM by happyslug
The Byzantium Empire never recovered from the Sacking of Constantinople in 1204 by the Fourth Crusade, even when Constantinople fell back into Greek hands in 1261. From 1204 to long after 1453 when Constantinople fell to the Turks, you had Greeks stating they preferred Turkish rule to Latin rule. Osman and his successors use this hatred of the west to secure they hold on Anatolia. Many of the Ruling Elite Families of the Early Turkish empire were Greek Orthodox. Other Orthodox also supported the Ottoman expansion from 1299-1453 (The Greek Garrison of Constantinople was even occasionally hired by the Ottoman Empire as troops when the Ottoman emperors deemed the troops to be needed).

This is complicated by the Fact, Trapzon on the Black Sea Coast never accepted the Constantinople Rulers to be "True" Rulers of the Byzantium Empire and held out till 1461 against the Turks.

The last two Byzantium Emperors tired to get help from the West, but failed given that England was backing the Turks (More as a balance to France who backed the Greeks), as was most Italian States (Since 1204 the Italians had controlled the waters of Greece and feared Greek Expansion more than land based Turkish Expansion). Venice sent some troops, but not enough to stop the taking of Constantinople (and thus did NOT undo the Damages Venice had caused Constantinople when it directed the Forth Crusade against the City).

Given the hostilely of the Greeks to the West, do both to the Fourth Crusade and subsequent control of the Aegean Sea by Venice, many Greeks back the Turks. The Legend of Osman even mention this is that Osman first and best ally was a Greek Christan who helped him in his fight for control of what was to be the start of his Empire. Many of the land owners of Anatolia stayed Orthodox for generations after 1453, but over time came to think of themselves as "Turkish" not Greek (But he Duality of the Empire remained, with the Patriarch of Constantinople being appointed by the Sultan instead of the Emperor).

This duality remained the heart of the Empire till the late 1600s when a religious revival took place. This religious Revival was less religious in nature than an attempt to address the problem of the Empire no longer expanding. As long as the Empire was expanding, the elites had more and more land to divide among themselves, once the empire stooped expanding (about 1600) the elites had to divide up what already was in the Empire and with the Empire in Decline (late 1600s onward) and shrinking pot of land.

Like many societies in such a situation, people started to look for ways to keep a larger share of the shrinking pot. One way to gain an advantage is to make sure your sons get into a known power area. Thus in 1683 you see the switch in the nature of the Janissary Corp from one of sons of Christians (Soldier-Slaves) who as young boys were made soldier-slaves and who them moved up in the Turkish Bureaucracy to one of an organization of Sons of Muslims who worked the Bureaucracy. The Empire made other changes to Strengthened the Turkish/Islamic nature of the Empire. This was the result of the in-fighting of the Elites to gain an advantage int he declining Empire (A similar intolerance and demand for people of the "True Faith" occurred in Russia starting in the 1960s as the Communists demand greater and greater loyalty to Communist dogma as a way to force reformers and gain advantage for themselves within the Soviet Bureaucracy).

The problem with this is the Christian background of the older Janissary Corp kept the Turkish-Greek nature of the Empire alive. Once the the Janissary Corp became Islamic/Turkish from birth the Greeks lost power within the Bureaucracy. This lead to massive discrimination against the Greeks (and other non-Turks) within the Empire. Finally in 1830s the Greeks revolted and won their Independence (Egypt had been de-facto Independent since the French Invasion of the 1790s). The rest of Balkans followed as the 1800s went on. By the 1800s the "Turks" in these areas had ceased to be local representatives who happen to be Moslem, to be part of the repression of the people. In earlier Centuries, many of the locals had become "Turks" by inter-marrying with the Turkish elite and embracing Islam. By the 1800s these local elites had a choice embrace the Growing "Turkishness" of the Empire or embrace the locals being discriminated against. This caused these local leaders to either move to Constantinople to escape the problems back home, or to revert to whatever was the nationalism of they area they were ruling. Many families did both, but both caused the number of "Turks" o\in the balkans to drop in number. This is Similar to the Dropping numbers of "Russians" into today's Ukraine. The Ukraine is about 50-50 Ukrainian-Russian in nationality (Under Soviet Rules you had to declare your nationality when you turned 21, most mixed parentages children under Soviet Rule picked Russian, but are in outlook Ukrainian, the same with the "Turks" in the Balkans in the 1700s and 1800s, many were NOT Turks in the Modern sense of the World, but picked the nationality of Turk as an political advantage. When it was no longer an advantage the term was dropped.

For more on Osman I see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osman_I

The Forth Crusade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

Trabizon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabzon
http://www.karalahana.com/english/archive/history.html

Janissary Corp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirmeh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary_revolts
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC