2nd generation survivors to sue Germany

[Scurrilous]

Source: Ynetnews

Fisher Fund to file class action lawsuit against German government next week, following failed talks to reach compensation agreement for some 40,000 second-generation Holocaust survivors, who 'have suffered severe mental and psychological damage'

<snip>

"A class action lawsuit representing 40,000 second-generation Holocaust survivors will be filed against the German government at the Tel Aviv Magistrates Court next week, following failed attempts to reach a settlement with Germany.

The suit will be filed by Attorney Gideon Fisher, founder of the Fisher Fund, an independent body which grants scholarships and assists in places where other organizations are unable to help.

After receiving many requests from second-generation survivors, Fisher, whose own parents were Holocaust survivors, began holding talks with senior German officials in a bid to receive financing for mental treatments required by some second-generation Holocaust survivors.

"We were not interested in filing a lawsuit," explained Baruch Mazor, CEO of the Fisher Fund on Thursday."

<snip>

"Despite talks with officials, the German government cut ties with the Fisher Fund some two months ago and refused to comment on the matter, forcing the Fund to take legal action."





Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3425021,00.html

[aquart]

1. America should pay attention.

We owe a lot of Iraqis.

[atreides1]

8. Hell

We owe the Indians, the Hawaiians, and many others. The Iraqis will have to stand in line just like the rest!!!!!

[marshall]

19. Jews were run out of Spain during the Inquisition

My family was part of that group of refugees. Thank goodness progressive minded King Henry VIII took them on as violin players in his court or who knows where they would have ended up.

And we have yet to receive anything from the Spanish government!

[peace frog]

25. And we haven't collected one dime yet

not do we ever expect to. FUHGEDDABOUDIT.

[silverojo]

52. Hey, when can we Irish start suing?

We could sue the USA for "No Irish Need Apply" signs being allowed, and we could sue the UK for...well...everything.

:evilgrin:

[cui bono]

2. Is Bush going to cause the US to have a bunch of lawsuits? n/t

[lligrd]

3. Ya Think??

And deservedly so. Exactly why we most hold those that benefited also accountable.

[cui bono]

18. Yes. And we should make them put their war profits in trust fund

to pay for the future lawsuits.

[Phrogman]

4. Maybe Attorney Gideon Fisher can represent the Palestinians

when he's done with this case

[Behind the Aegis]

36. .

[TomClash]

5. If the Right of Return is off the table . . .

. . . shouldn't this be as well?

What goes around comes around.

[DavidDvorkin]

12. What is it that's going around, in this case?

What karma is involved? What is the universe punishing these people for?

[TomClash]

41. Good question

Beats me.

[DavidDvorkin]

42. Since you're the one who used that phrase

I assumed you meant something by it. I'm asking what you meant.

[TomClash]

44. Here's what I meant - I will spell it out for you

If second generation survivors can sue for "severe psychological damage" because their relatives perished in the holocaust then second generation dispossessed Palestinians should be able to sue for their "severe psychological damage." If not, well . . .

[DavidDvorkin]

46. You need to write more clearly and to think your posts through

Your original post implied that the descendants who were discussed in the original article, or their parents who suffered in the Holocaust, where experiencing some kind of Karmic payback.

Moreover, what you now say you actually meant also implies that those people and their suffering has some connection to the mistreatment of the Palestinians. Perhaps you'll now deny that you meant anything more than a general application of an implied legal principle, but in that case, why pick out the Palestinians?

[TomClash]

47. Park the self-righteousness at the door

It's not pretty, counsel.

"What goes around, comes around" means you get what you deserve. If the Palestinians don't get the right of return or at the very least reparations should why second generation Holocaust survivors get that?

I "pick out" the Palestinians because they too are victims of a gross injustice - this time supported by some of the same descendants who would benefit from lawsuit. That is both ironic and pathetic.

[DavidDvorkin]

48. You implied something vile

And I don't think that was unintentional.

Now you're trying to squirm out of it.

Okay. I'll set you on Ignore from now on.

[TomClash]

49. What vile thing did I imply?

I guess the accused doesn't have the right to know what he is charged with.

Another similarity to GWB? Hmm.

[LeftishBrit]

51. It sounded as though...

you think that people's entitlement to reparations for the Holocaust should be influenced by Israel's political actions; and that, if Israel acts in ways that you disapprove of, then the Holocaust victims and their descendants don't deserve reparations *for that reason*.

While I am dubious about the legal validity of compensating second and third generations of Holocaust survivors for emotional problems (see my comment downthread), I am quite sure of one thing: it shouldn't depend one way or another on Israel's political actions! It's not ISRAEL that's asking for compensation. If someone runs you over through carelessness and injures you, should you be denied compensation because you happen to come from the same country as Bush, and Bush has done evil things in Iraq? Let us note that MOST descendants of Holocaust survivors do not even live in Israel (and many Israeli Jews are not descendants of Holocaust survivors; e.g. many are of longstanding Middle Eastern origin)! Why should descendants of Holocaust survivors be punished because the government of a country, which happens to contain many descendants of Holocaust survivors, does something that you disagree with? I thought this sort of collective blame and collective punishment was against all the principles of libaralism.

Maybe I have misinterpreted your comment; but that was how it came across (to me; I can't speak for the others who commented).

[TomClash]

54. It's simple

You cannot logically support reparations for the descendants of Holocaust survivors and then oppose the right of return, or more practically, compensation, for Palestinians.

[Popol Vuh]

57. I understood his statement

perfectly fine.

[jody]

6. And descendants of Custer's 7th Cavalry can sue the Sioux. n/t

[atreides1]

9. No

Because Custer's 7th were the agressors, the Sioux were defending themselves from a racist individual carrying out the policies of a racist government, that fortunately never got the practice of genocide correct!!!!!!

[dipsydoodle]

24. Back to front

I have to assume that was sarcasm ?

[BlueIris]

7. Good luck to these survivors.

What they have endured is ghastly.

[Mojorabbit]

10. From what I understand

these are not survivors but the children of them. I am ambivalent about this. I know a lot of people who's parents were alcoholics and abusers and survived their childhoods. If there is an increased amount of psych problems with children of these survivors compared to the general population a fund to help with treatment is a good thing. I understood that Germany had universal health care? Does it cover mental health? There are a lot of questions not answered in the article.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. Oh good krispy christ - these people's PARENTS endured shit.

These people want a handout because their parents were wronged. Screw their greedy asses.

[Hawkeye-X]

15. Hey! I don't appreciate that.

as a THIRD generation of a Holocaust survivor, I watched my dad who is the 2nd generation, and he has done well, and was never greedy. Yes, there are some weirdoes out there that wants some payback, but we are not one of them. My grandfather rebuilt his life from scratch and did very well for himself and his family. Didn't even ask for much, but he had skills to utilize.

He died in 2001 at the age of 94.

Hawkeye-X

[SayWhatYo]

21. Are seeking money from them?

Then I don't think you should resent that. The poster above was referring to the ones who are brining this suit forward.

[CBHagman]

33. Here's a clarification from the article.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3425021,00.html

Sources from the fund said they hoped the court would comply with their request to recognize the suit as a class action suit and stressed that "any monetary compensation received would not go directly to the pockets of the second-generation survivors, but would be meant only for the funding of mental treatment for those in need, some of which are no longer able to function".

[MrPrax]

11. Grifters ... n/t

[harlinchi]

13. What's that many DU'ers were saying about reparations for slavery, then?

I not a big fan of cash reparations except in the case where some records exist of actual theft, say, post-Reconstruction (which wouldn't be reparations but legal judgments), precisely for the reason that no one now alive owned Black slaves in America. If, however, penalties can be levied against the sons of evil-doers, then why not the grandsons, great-grandsons, etc? Or does that situation only apply to "the' Holocaust?

[Desperadoe]

16. German government???

Explain to me just why the present German government should be responsible for anything that was done by the Nazi government of 60 years ago.

[lynne]

55. I'm not understanding that aspect, either -

- there was a complete change in government. There is no Nazi government in Germany any longer. While I admit that these 2nd generation survivors endured hardships because of what their parents suffered, I do not see where the present German government had any hand in it at all.

[bobthedrummer]

17. Records of the Pauley Reparations Missions, 1945-1948

Oilman Edwin W. Pauley later became preoccupied with UCLA, but he was once entrusted with returning assets stolen during the Holocaust. Less than 20% of the known assets have been returned.

Here's a page from The National Archives that lists what Edwin Pauley and his team documented as known stolen assets.
http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/finding-aid/civilian/rg-59-2.html

[Karenina]

20. ...

...

[bobthedrummer]

56. .

[originalpckelly]

22. That doesn't make sense at all. Why would the 2nd generation be owed anything?

People who survived the Holocaust, that makes complete and total sense, they suffered.

But how did the 2nd generation suffer like their parents?

[Orsino]

23. Huh. I was ready to ridicule this story...

...but suing for necessary medical and psychiatric treatment seems appropriate. It's what our Iraq War vets are going to have to do, after all.

A government should be willing to clean up its messes.

[JVS]

28. Is the mess created by the government of the German Reich the mess of the...

Federal Republic of Germany's government? The Federal Republic generally has a tradition of making efforts toward reconcilliation, but whether there is a legal transfer of responsibility is a matter that I'm doubtful about.

[Orsino]

29. Sure.

The government of German should clean up Germany's messes. Oh, I'm not proposing prison, or saying that more reparations must be paid, but yeah, Germany ought to take care of problems it caused. Medical treatment seems like the least they could do.

[VTMechEngr]

31. Should Whites in the USA pay blacks reparations?

Same concept. Punishing another generation for the evils of past generations just makes even more victims.

[Orsino]

37. "Creates even more victims?" How so?

I wasn't proposing punishment. I only recommended that the German government reach out to the indirect victims as well as the obvious victims.

[Solly Mack]

26. I know people want to believe that future generations aren't responsible

for the atrocities of the past and while it does seem unfair at first glance, consideration must be given to the long term effects of those atrocities.

Two survivors marry and have children. They bring with them their experiences - the nightmares, the fear, the anger - and children reared in such a home will be directly affected by what their parents went through as a result of being victims - and the guilt of being a survivor. And maybe they did things to survive that they are ashamed of...and that shame shapes how they interact with their children.

Children of parents with emotional health issues can and often do grow to become children with emotional health issues - they become adults whose development was hampered by the environment of the childhood home.

We can pretend the Holocaust ended at Nuremberg - but then we would be denying the extensive and long term damage caused by the Holocaust.

Yes, it's not just the children of survivors of the Holocaust that grew up with the fears and anguish of their parents. Native peoples of what is now America... the "freed" children of former slaves...children of soldiers with PTSD....children of parents with mental illnesses....and a host of other examples.

True - we can't right every wrong...but we also shouldn't deny that the effects of some wrongs linger simply because of the nature and extent of the damage caused by those wrongs. Also because some wrongs were never truly righted - or dealt with - at the time of their taking place.

Yes, we all could go broke paying for the actions of the past - but we pay anyway. One way or another, we pay for them. We pay when we don't deal with the problem as it happens. We pay when we try and sweep the wrongs under the rug. We pay when we try and minimize the damage by saying it couldn't have been that bad - or words that mean the same. We pay when we lie to ourselves and say time will heal it. We pay when we pretend the past is the past - because a good deal of the past is unresolved injustices that create generational effects.

I'm not sure what the answer is...

I do know we have to stop telling ourselves that the harm we bring to others doesn't have a ripple effect...because it does. The past travels on our shoulders...always looking over...always casting a shadow.

Maybe we need to be more mindful of our actions today - more just - more fair..so that in the future we have less to answer for...

I do know we have to stop attempting to marginalize the pain of others simply because our own pains were never validated - and I do think some people do just that. Which is just another example of the rippling effect of unresolved injustices. We were told to suck it up and move on (life isn't fair) - so "they" can too.

We can't keep paying for the past - but we will do so - until we stop accruing the cost in the present and deal honestly with the past.

[Bucky]

34. You raise some very good points, and yet...

at some point you just have to get past historical bullshit and deal with the realities life hands you. A competing menu of ancestral victims can turn into a bottomless pit. It seems a lot healthier and a lot less regressive if society deals with historical wrongs by creating more equitable futures, not by redressing those competing menus of historical injustices.

Going thru the courts, instead of correction social imbalances through public policy initiatives, has another huge problem. It's not real justice. It's haphazard. The people who sue in the courts is a random function of which historical records got kept the best. The injustice over which someone brings suit is not the one that mattered the most, but the one that is either better documented or the one that is more emotionally resonant. Which people get sued is a random function of who has the money now, not who did the greater social wrong back then. And then the whole process gets filtered through the courts system, creating more random, haphazard outcomes.

That's not justice, that's roulette.

If, instead of delving into that ever receding jungle of historical causalities and receding historical paper trails of institutional culpability, we focused our efforts on developing an economy that created opportunities in the present and a Justice Department that fought current prejudices and discriminations, you can move toward a desired outcome without creating insoluable and gluey new conflicts.

[Solly Mack]

39. I agree that society should deal " with historical wrongs by creating more equitable futures"

but many of those historical injustices have been compounded over and over again by society's unwillingness to do just that - "creating more equitable futures"

We end slavery but sit back and watch years and years of Jim Crow type discrimination and abuse cause immeasurable damage before something is done about it, for example.

Ending slavery did nothing to address the effects of slavery....ending Jim Crow did nothing to address the effects of Jim Crow...which is compounded by nothing being done to correct the effects of slavery. Injustices built upon injustices does not an equitable future make.

So I agree with creating equitable futures as a means to help correct past wrongs...but it has to be an actual equitable future that is being created - not half measures.


a future example...

I'm certain that in the not so distant future, some Americans will be telling Iraqis to get over it and move on...and these Americans will say this without ever - not once - honestly addressing the damage America has caused the Iraqi people. People will be dismissive of the pain and suffering of the Iraqis...they'll tell them to look ahead...but it is hard to look ahead when every night you scream yourself awake from the memories of seeing your child blown to bits.

I'm not implying you'll say that...but we both know people will..and people already are in point of fact.

We as a nation must address our past - openly, honestly, and without minimizing any of the ugly in order to see our way to a more equitable future..otherwise, we're just building a future on lies and denial and so far, that hasn't worked out too well for us.

[Karenina]

38. Great post, Solly!

:loveya:

[Solly Mack]

40. Thanks, Karenina!

:loveya: right back

[Coventina]

27. I'm all for descendents suing to get property back.

But for "emotional & psychological damage"?

Should I sue my mom's old church because they turned her into a fundie freak which caused me emotional damage?

[Thickasabrick]

30. LOL....good point n/t

[Bucky]

32. Did the US pay reparations to children of Nissei internment camps?

My understanding is that the right to reparations is limited to the victims living at the time, not to their children or subsequent generations. If there's still historical injustice after a generation's time, it should be redressed by social policies, not by trying to use the courts to haphazardly correct every single injustice you can dig up historical records on.

Just from a pragmatic point of view, there has to be a cut off.

[Alexander]

35. They don't deserve this. Neither do the descendants of slaves.

You should not be held accountable for something someone else (namely, your ancestors) did.

[NashVegas]

43. Ugh

I wish I could sue the alcohol companies that led my mother to be raised by an alcoholic, and marry another, thereby guaranteeing that her children would grow up in a joyless home. Alas ...

At some point you have to stop rationalizing shit, learn to confront your demons, cry your eyeballs out, and then go build a life. A lawsuit isn't going to do it for you.

[ikojo]

45. How can a person born AFTER the end of WWII

be called a SURVIVOR of WWII?

That is pure craziness!

Who's to say that the parents in question would not have psychologically injured their children anyway?

[LeftishBrit]

50. Firstly...

I think that the state should provide mental health care for all who need it, in any case. I know that Germany has near-universal health insurance, but I'm not quite sure what it covers.

I believe in reparations, but I doubt that a lawsuit of this sort can work, simply because it is so hard to prove, especially at this date, whether the family problems were due to the effects of surviving the Holocaust or would have occurred anyway. As many of the first-generation survivors have died, it may be difficult to get medical/psychiatric opinions.

[oberliner]

53. Why did you post this article here?

Seems better suited to the Democrats abroad forum or the Jewish group.

What are your thoughts on the lawsuit?

[treestar]

58. I am suing the UK for compensation for the potato famine then

This kind of thing has to end somewhere.

This would be punishing the descendants of the guilty, too.