Radio Talk-Show Host Names Kobe Bryant's Accuser

[Paragon]

Well, fellas (you know who you are) - you got your way. Hope you're happy.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=577&ncid=577&e=1&u=/nm/20030723/sp_nm/nba_crime_bryant_dc

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The 19-year-old woman who accused Los Angeles Lakers (news) star Kobe Bryant (news) of rape was named on Tuesday by a nationally syndicated talk-show host and on the Internet, pushing her into the spotlight despite pleas for privacy from her family...

Meanwhile Tom Leykis, host of a radio talk-show based in Los Angeles and aimed mostly at young men, began using her name on the air and told Reuters that he has no plans to stop.

"We're told that rape is violence, not sex, and if that's true there's no reason she should feel shame or embarrassment," Leykis said, adding that he felt it unfair to name Bryant but not his accuser.

[hlthe2b]

1. I don't know if Kobe is guilty or innocent... I give all involved ....

benefit of the doubt at this point. But this kind of stunt is going to cause irreparable damage to the prosecution of rape throughout the country, as well as a lot of backlash against women in general. This is tragic, in my opinion. I hope the dj gets his just rewards. He is truly a son-of-a bitch IMO.

[ChrisNYC]

2. There is a website out there

That I have seen, that lists her name, has a picture, gives her phone number, email address, IM addres, etc. etc. etc.

DISGUSTING.

[Darth_Kitten]

5. Flame me if you want to.....

but why do so many american men (well, the right wing nuts, etc) get their jollies being so degrading and hateful towards women? It just seems like they ENJOY being especially mean to women. :(

No disrespect to the nice american men out there. :)

[Paragon]

7. Exhibit A

See post # 6 below.

[TankLV]

10. Thank you.

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."

Can't have it both ways.

If you agree in the illogic of letting the accuser remain hidden while ruining the reputation of the accused, then you agree that bunkerboy and his GITMO gulags are the correct course.

Yep - great to KNOW what the truth is without benefit of any single shread of evidence, isn't it?! Judge Jury and Executioner all in one!

Once a scumbag is PROOVEN to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, then by all means, scuer (scewer?) the pig.

Until then - gotta believe in "Innocent until PROOVEN guilty".

Otherwise, you're no better than bunkerboy.

[Paragon]

11. Hey, how can I disagree with a guy...

...who can't spell "proven"?

[TankLV]

15. Make light of a serious subject.

Proven Prooven Shmoozen.

You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. You can't regain your reputation once the accusations appear on page one, and any retraction, if any, appears hidden between the grocery ads.

Remember the McMartin Preschool case.

Remember the GITMO prisoners.

Taking satisfaction of ruining one's reputation and possible life is just sick.

I feel sorry that you cannot see my points.

What's fair is fair.

At least it used to be.

[ChrisNYC]

14. Wonderful

And until then this girl will be harassed, forced to change her phone/email/address/name all to avoid nut job women haters so you can feel the something is "fair". She didn't choose to be raped, Kobe chose to be famous. Personally I think she should be able to sue, but as the laws are currently written that isn't the case.

[TankLV]

16. Again, you are assuming one side.

And until then, the innocent man will be harassed, forced to change his phone number, etc, etc, etc. What if he didn't rape her? But since you have the power to already know what the truth is without any stinking evidence, and he is already convicted...must be great to be so perfect.

Do you ever listen to yourself? I feel sorry for you.

No one but him and the woman know if he did it or not. If he did, he's the worst human being. I reserve my judgement till the outsome of the trial.

Glad you aren't a judge.

You just won't "get it".

It's not worth discussing this further.

[Eloriel]

22. 98% chance

he's guilty.

That's the stats JUST on reported "alleged" rapes -- only 2% are found to be false allegations. AND there are thousands upon thousands of rapes every year in this country alone which go totally unreported -- for the exact reasons as this Leykis schmuck has demonstrated.

So excuuuuuuuse me if I don't fall into some paroxysm of jurisprudential virtue spouting "innocent until proven guilty."

Bah.

Eloriel

P.S. And another thing. He didn't look any too "innocent" during his press conference. Take that and stuff it. You goddamned right I'll pass judgment. I have EVERY right to assume his guilt. I'm enither the judge or jury. That stats and his own performance are against him.

[Dookus]

23. Again....

that's a really bad use of a statistic. It does NOT mean there's a 98% chance that he's guilty. You can't apply a group statistic like that to an individual.

[Dookus]

25. Also, I don't believe the statistic itself.

http://www.menweb.org/throop/falsereport/kanin.html

One excerpt:

FINDINGS



Regarding this study, 41% (n= 45) of the total disposed rape cases (n= 109) were officially declared false during this 9-year period, that is, by the complainant's admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27% (3 out of Il cases) to a high of 70% (7 out of 10 cases). The 9-year period suggests no trends, and no explanation has been made for the year-to-year fluctuation.


On edit:

also found this: http://www.menweb.org/throop/falsereport/refbrownm.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. That study has already been shot out of the water

What they did was take the WORD UNFOUNDED and use it analogous to FALSE ALLEGATION which is untrue. An unfounded rape case is one that cannot be prosecuted for a variety of reasons NOT always factual innocence. Since rape is already a difficult crime to prosecute, DA's tend to only GO for the ones where they feel reasonably safe that can get a conviction.

The highest number assessed by the FBI was 8% in 1996 and that study was deemed innacurrate NOT because the instance of false reporting was higher but because they didn't weight the percentage of UNFOUNDED 9i.e. unprosecutable NOT FALSE ) claims against the number of cases they KNOW based on statistics go UNREPORTED at all.

The 41% number is a number you will see replicated on every self-referential male rights site. Organizations that either WORK with criminal justice or perform studies ON BEHALF of criminal justice find a much more conservative number of FALSE ALLEGATIONS.

It SHOULD NOT be understated that the reason also cases go UNFOUNDED is often because of poor investigative skills at the community level in solving rapes or finding evidence or establishing a record.

The 2% figure has been cited as having various sources. The point is, the most verifiable number and that was DRASTICALLY understated was 8%.

[Dookus]

41. well i found a number of links.....

and none of them confirm the 2 percent finding.

Furthermore, the first like I provided defined "false accusation' as one in which the accuser RECANTS.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. The actual studies are not online..that's why.nor is ANY study that proves

the 41% cited in the link that you provided. YOu provided a link that has an article that deliberately weighted the studies differently by NOT factoring unreported rapes which even the FBI's crimes statistics site ( the report is called UCR) acknowledges exist. I am not going to do your research for you but I will offer you some advie.

An article ABOUT a study is NOT a study. That SAME article you cited is replicated 1000 times over or more on the internet just like articles that state Bill Clinton killed Vince Foster and other tripe. That does not make the articles true, it makes the internet polluted with shit that people READ and BUY with their uncurious minds.

The 2% figure came NOT just from the Brownmiller study but also from a study at St. Johns a few years back.

If ANYTHING, rape is UNDER reported not OVER alleged. Again, the FBI was FORCED to go back and re-weight their own studies as was the UC system in California. It was found that California campuses had under reported rapes on campus in all probability because it was a factor in families choosing campuses. There is a large set of article available on THAT study at the Sacramento Bee.

BTW, don;t you find it curious that given the vast differences the subject is so UNDERSTUDIED? Don't you find it the least bit interesting that you have a study that says 41% (although it is a crock of shit for the reasons I stated) and Brownmiller has a study that say 2% and we haven't gotten to the bottom of what the cfacts are?

Shouldn't we know these facts if we are going to spend millions prosecuting people and as you and others say on this thread ruining their lives?

ISn't it the least bit curious to you that if there really were as much as 41% of rape claims being false that no one would get to the bottom of it?

IF 41% of car thefts were false claims we certainly would.

Again..every site that references that figure is a *sniff sniff* male victim site.

BTW, an project I support called THE INNOCENCE PRJECT which IS about accomplishing justice in cases where the falsely accused have been imprisoned does not cite that article you supplied. WHY? Because it is unscientific bullshit.

BTW..I found a number of links stating Hillary Clinton is the spawn of satan. Does the number of links really matter?

[ProfessorGAC]

187. I Tend To Believe The Lower Number, But. . .

. . .the Gary Dotson case always disturbs me.

Girl has sex with boyfriend. She freaks out over the potential punishment she will get from parents. Lies and says he raped her.

He goes to jail. Protests the whole time he never raped her.

Several years later, adult and mature, she recants everything, explains why she lied, comes out in public about it, apologizes to everyone, especially Gary, and begs the governor to release him.

It takes 6 months and a dozen public hearings to set him free by a granstanding governor and protesting prosecutors. The woman's own psychotherapist makes a public statement that he believes her whole story and that her personality and past are consistent with such a fabrication.

That guy spent years in jail for a crime he didn't commit. Man that worries me a lot. Nobody innocent deserves ever to go to jail for any length of time.

I know this is just one case amongst thousands. But, i'm in the "better for a 100 guilty to go free than for one innocent to be punished" camp.

I don't know how good the stats of false accusations are. I doubt the 41% number. (Just a gut feeling that number is way too high.)

But, even if the 2% number is right, it's 2% too high. And right here on DU, there seems to be a feeling that Kobe's already guilty. I said last week that i thought he was already convicted in the trial of public opinion. Some said i was wrong. I don't care about Kobe, one way or the other, but if he's one of the 2%, this is REAL REAL bad. Not as bad as being a rape victim, but pretty darn bad.

I'd say this thread proves i was right. It doesn't look like some here care whether he really did it. Since rapists are, by definition, evil men, the mere accusation paints Kobe with an ugly color. Justice is not served under these circumstances. If he gets convicted, i hope this prosecutor isn't granstanding like the guys in the Dotson case.
The Professor

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

196. Professor, you won't get an argument from me on the basic principle

that it is better to let 100 guilty people go free than to punish an innocent person. I am in complete agreement.

I care that he gets his day in court. I care that he not be punished for a crime that he did not commit. I have been NOTHING BUT consistent on that matter in ALL my posts concerning criminal justice on DU. I AM an advocate for the underdog, just to clarify my position.

I agree that there should be (and actually ARE) penalties for the false arrest of ANYONE FOR ANYTHING.

2% IS TOO much. On that we agree, but claims of 41% only serve to skew public policy , and justice dept resources.

With over 650,000 rapes a year, is ANYONE going to defend that over 200,000 are FALSE?

I am not using these statistics to argue for convictions but to argue against the deliberate smearing of rape victims.

If one is falsely accused of murder, does that all murder victims whores who asked for it?

[Wonder]

53. so what should be done about false rape allegations dookus

have any suggestions?

and than perhaps you might like to spend as much time seeking out the allegations that are not false and follow the story of those women through a decades time and perhaps offer us an informed and balanced opinion as to how we might go about decreasing the number of actual rape crimes.

Because this one sided escapade is really quite futile. It offers no solution for either problem. And statistics can be jimmied and which way one needs.

One question while you ponder what I have said and have digested this study is your expert advisement that rape hardly ever occurs? Is that the next beat we will be visiting dooKus? Because it almost sounds as if you might not even believe the crime itself exists to any real significant degree.

[Dookus]

125. Wonder...

that is ridiculous.

I have had a number of very dear friends violently raped. In college, I was on the Board of Directors of the New York Public Interest Research Group and it was *MY* initiative to get the organization to lobby to exclude the marital rape exception.

Simply because I provided evidence to show a suspicious statistic was false gives you no right to impugn how I feel about rape or to make any assumptions about my attitudes towards it.

The %2 statistic is simply false. I'm not making a political or social point. I'm simply stating a fact. Pointing that out does NOT make me an apologist for rapists. I would hope you have the decency to apologize.

[Wonder]

54. this is one study of two precincts

and these you believe... best you are so interest in this subject you start compiling a folder of these studies over time and being to plot trends on all the statistics that are available on this subject and the perhaps your disbelief will be more moving.

These studies even seem to suggest the reason why the allegations were false is because a female officer takes the report. So I guess the DA in a state actually presses charges based on the say of the officer in the precinct. That female officer will take those cases more worthy and then hand it off to a detective in the sex crimes unit. Which based on his asssessment may or may not take it the DA. And that same detective sits in on all the interrogations of the victim as well as the trial itself. Many seasoned to observe if her story deviates from one report to another.

I am not surprised there are false accusations on the precinct level that actually seems highly plausible. Where are the statistics of those that the DA decides to take to trial? And how many rape trials are there in a year nationwide?


The point is they are weeding out false accusations at the lowest level where they are suppose to. And making misleading conclusions of all rape accusations. of those that are not false and do go to trial those are the ones we need the statistics on. Also... I am not sure the rape suspect is given a lie detector test either, and since this ONE study of these TWO precinct are so concerned for false accusations, where are the followup points for punishment when false accusation is revealed and various correctional tacts that have been set in place since these studies were conducted for these two precincts specifically?

[Rich Hunt]

68. HOO BOY...

Boy, am I ever sorry to see that Kanin reference show up on this board.

Speaking of statistics, I would wager that about 98% of the people who dredge up that Kanin cite (from anti-feminist web sites) know nothing about Eugene Kanin's work, nor have they bothered to track down the actual article.

Since I have read the article, here is a quote from it:

"Most problematic is the question of the generalizability of these
findings from a single police agency handling a relatively small
number of cases. Certainly, our intent is not to suggest that
the 41% incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations,
particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural
variables that might be influencing such behavior and which could
be responsible for wide variations among cities. But a far greater
obstacle to obtaining "true" incidence figures, especially for larger
cities, would be the extraordinary variations in police
agency policies (see Comment, 1968; Newsweek, 1983; Pepinsky and
Jesilow, 1984); variations so diverse, in fact, that some police agencies
cannot find a single rape complaint with merit, while others
cannot find a single rape complaint without merit. Similarly, some
police agencies report all of their unfounded rape cases to be due
to false allegation, while other agencies report none of their unfounded
declarations to be based on false allegation (Kanin, 1985). Some of these policies are really nothing more than statistical and procedural legerdemain. On the other hand, a degree of confidence exists
that the findings reported here are not exaggerations
produced by some sort of atypical population, that is, nothing peculiar
exists about this city's population composition to suggest
that an unusual incidence or patterning of false rape allegations
would occur. This city is not a resort/reveling area or a center
attracting a transient population of any kind, attributes that have been
associated with false rape reporting (Wilson, 1978). The major
culprit in this city may well be a police agency that seriously
records and pursues to closure all rape complaints,
regardless of their merits. We may well be faced with the fact
that the most efficient police departments report the higher
incidence of false rape allegations. In view of these factors,
perhaps the most prudent summary statement that is appropriate from
these data is that false rape accusations are not uncommon. Since this
effort is the first at a systematic, long-term, on-site investigation
of false rape allegations from a single city, future studies in
other cities, with comparable policies, must assess the
representativeness of these findings."

Kanin very clearly cautions against using his percentage
as an indication of the general false rape reporting rate.
I wonder why we haven't seen acknowledgment of that here.
This Kanin is a peculiar guy - he also cites an unpublished
paper that he presented at a law enforcement conference,
in which the figure was an absurd 100%. But by his own
admission in the introduction to his article, the figures
vary wildly.

What these people don't acknowledge is that Kanin has been researching and publishing on this topic since at least the late fifties, at which time he came up with percentages along the lines
of 25-50% *for sexual assault incidence*. As this post
is getting long, I will discuss the merits and problems
of his research in another post (it's interesting stuff!).
Let it suffice to say that, while I find some of his
research a bit odd, I do not think that he is in any
way trying to downplay the prevalence of rape. In fact,
in several of his articles, he agrees that most actual
rapes are unreported.

[Rich Hunt]

69. more on Kanin...

"Men's rights" types, if they had any sense, would stay away from Kanin. Here is another study done by the same guy. I don't think that the anti-feminists would like the findings:

Eugene Kanin, of all people, did a study back in 1984
of 70 or so college campus rapists, who *admitted*
that they had raped. I believe of these 70, only one
or two involved the police. Kanin described these
men as superficially indistinguishable from "Joe College".
The report can be found in Victimology, no. 9, 1984.

[Dookus]

126. Look...

I did a quick google search. The 2% figure sounded odd to me, and I looked it up. I found more than the Kanin article. I found references to FBI studies, a US military study, and others. They can be found if you root around the links I provided, OR simply google "false rape accusations".

[Rich Hunt]

129. google, schmoogle

You didn't even read what I posted.

When it comes to this topic, which I have been reading about and arguing about for years, I don't do a lazy google search.

I have gone to academic libraries and reviewed all of the literature.

It's irresponsible to get your cites from biased sources without checking them out.

You assume that people in this thread know as little or as less than you do about it. In my case, I am extremely familiar with all of the literature.

You should go to a library and read everything Kanin had to say on the subject. He didn't like his research being used to draw conclusions about the prevalence of false rape accusations.

[Dookus]

133. then you misread what *I* wrote....

Look.... I don't know Kanin from a hole in the ground. I googled and found multiple sites on the subject. You can find them yourself.

My ONLY assertion is that the 2% claim is false. Multiple studies show the real rate of false accusations to be somewhat higher.

NONE of this, however, has anything to do with the case at hand. I was simply responding to the silly assertion that Kobe has a 98% of being guilty.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know, or even have much of an opinion, on whether or not Kobe is guilty. Furthermore, I couldn't have picked Kobe Bryant out of a lineup a week ago. I don't know squat about basketball and care even less.

Somebody quoted a statistic that a) sounded odd and b) made me wonder how the number was determined. So I looked around a bit and found other studies that variously put the number of false accusations between 8 and 20-something percent.

My ONLY point is that the number is greater than 2. Please don't infer anything about my intentions or beliefs beyond that.

[Rich Hunt]

135. that "statistic"

I believe that the "statistic" in question came from an estimate by the FBI. The FBI does not keep statistics on "false rape allegations", only "unfounded" reports.

The 2% may well be wrong, but this is a very big issue in the "men's rights" movement, and they're fond of citing all sorts of studies on their websites because they know that most people won't bother to look them up. That's why I get upset when they are unthinkingly reproduced here.

[Dookus]

136. sigh....

I didn't do it unthinkingly, and I didn't cite the first thing I saw.

I could just as easily insult the discredited 2% number as being posted "unthinkingly".

In fact, a number of people here in this thread have posted various links citing different numbers, all of which are greater than 2.

[Rich Hunt]

138. Kanin

You cited Kanin, without having consulted the actual article.

Kanin, of all people, with his ridiculous 41% statistic, which even he did not have much faith in.

I do call that irresponsible. You're quoting an article you haven't read. These sorts of factoids confirm prejudices and perpetuate misinformation.

It would have been better if you had just asked for confirmation of the 2%.


:spank:

[Dookus]

143. I have tried...

to be very polite and stick to the facts. But now you're behaving like a jerk.

I will say again: there are MULTIPLE reports that all put the number at >2. Stop trying to make me some sort of kanin-lover. I've already said I don't even know who the hell he is.

And yes... while you're at it... can you provide documentation for the 2% claim?

[Rich Hunt]

148. I didn't claim it

I didn't make such a claim - you'll have to ask the person who did. However, there is a document somewhere where the FBI speculates that it is about 2%. That is how this started.

But your "refutation" of the 2% claim was even more ridiculous than the 2%. You made a mistake - stop being so defensive.

I'm sorry - I'm just offended that you went to an obviously biased site where the author who "reviewed" the literature for a men's site comes right out and says that women who say they were raped are lying 50% of the time. I also don't like it when people don't evaluate sources - it's the academic in me. :( Also, this is exactly how misinformation spreads.

[Dookus]

150. oh, I see....

I provide links, as have others, but YOU don't have to. But you can repeat the unsourced 2% claim, without any concerns about spreading your own misinformation.

I'm done with you. Have a great day!

[Rich Hunt]

160. I didn't repeat it

I didn't "repeat" the stat. But I have seen it. My point wasn't to affirm or rebut the 2%. It was to refute the 41%.

Furthermore, I quoted from the actual Kanin article, because I've actually read it.

I think you owe me an apology. You're just being defensive and shifting blame.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

168. Here ya go complete with a reference table

Rape is a serious problem in the United States today. The United States has the highest rape rate among countries which report such statistics. It is 4 times higher than that of Germany, 13 times higher than that of England and 20 times higher than that of Japan.

Above is a chart showing the estimated rape rate per 100,000 people in the United States between 1960 and 1998. The rape rate in the US in 1998 was 34.4 per 100,000 persons. In 1997 there was a decrease of 7% in the overall crime rate, but the rate of rape and sexual assault did not decline at all. (National Crime Victimization Survey, 1997)

Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victims of sexual assault (National Crime Victimization Survey, 1997). A study among college women has shown that 1 out of every 5 college age women report being forced to have sexual intercourse. (1995 National College Health Risk Behavior Survey) 22% of all women say that they have been forced to do sexual things against their will, where only 3% of men admit to ever forcing themselves on a woman. (Laumann, 1994)

Reporting Statistics
Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992). In 1995 there were 97,460 rapes reported to law enforcement officials. At a 16% reporting rate, this means that there were actually closer to 649,733 rapes in the United States. Along the same lines, the number of rapes reported in New York state in 1996 was 20,911. At a 16% reporting rate, this means the actual number of rapes was closer to 139,406. (Computerized Criminal History, Feb. 1998)

The rate of false reports of rape is approximately 2 - 3% which is no different than that for other crimes. This is different than the 8% of reports which are unfounded. This means that in 8% of the rape cases reported the investigators or prosecutors deemed that the case was not prosecutable for any number of reasons. Only 2 - 3% of the reports however were fabricated stories.

Victim Characteristics

1 in 3 sexual assault victims are under the age of 12 (Snyder & Sickmund, 1999) and convicted rape and sexual assault offenders report that 2/3 of their victims were under the age of 18. Among victims age 18 - 29, two thirds had a prior relationship with the rapist. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Criminal Victimization, 1996)

18% of women who reported being raped before age 18 said they were also raped after age 18. (Violence Against Women Survey, 1998)

Perpetrator Characteristics

In 1997, 68.3% were perpetrated by someone who knew the victim. (Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey, 1997) 78% of women raped or physically assaulted since they turned 18 were assaulted by a current or former husband, live-in partner or date. 17% were victimized by an acquaintance, 9% by a relative other than a husband and only 14% were assaulted by a stranger. (National Violence Against Women Survey, 1998)

Assault Characteristics

Rape and sexual assault are not crimes that usually occur in dark alleys or in deserted areas at night. As a matter of fact 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur in the home of the victim or the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. (Greenfeld, 1997) 43.4% of rapes and sexual assaults occur between the hours of 6PM and midnight Greenfeld, 1997) and about two thirds occur between the hours of 6 PM and 6 AM (Greenfeld, 1997).

^ Back to Top

Impact of Rape

Rape is a violent crime which has many severe effects on the victim both in the long term and in the short term. For example, 36% women who are injured during a rape require medical attention (National Violence Against Women Survey, Nov.1998). 25 - 45% of rape survivors suffer from non-genital trauma, 19 - 22% suffer from genital trauma, up to 40% obtain STDs and 1 - 5% become pregnant as a result of the rape. There are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States annually. (Holmes, 1996) Sexual assault survivors' visits to their physicians increase by 18% the year of the assault, 56% the year after and 31% the second year after the assault. (Koss, 1993)

The consequences of rape are not always physical though, and are not always immediate. 80% of rape victims will suffer from chronic physical or psychological conditions over time. (Strategies for the Treatment and Prevention of Sexual Assault. 1995) Rape survivors are also 13 times more likely to attempt suicide than not crime victims and 6 times more likely than victims of other crimes. (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, 1992) 26% of women with bulimia nervosa were raped at some point in their lives. The mental health costs of sexual assault victims are very high, studies have shown that 25 - 50% of rape and child sexual abuse victims receive some sort of mental health treatment as a result of the victimization. (Miller, 1996)

Overall, rape has the highest annual victim cost of any crime. The annual victim costs are $127 billion (excluding child sex abuse cases). This is followed by assault at $93 billion per year, murder (excluding arson and drunk driving) at $61 billion and child abuse at $56 billion per year. (Miller, 1996)

^ Back to Top

Conviction and Sentencing

Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice)



Sources

1995 National College Health Risk Behavior Survey." Journal American College Health (Sept.1997)

Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Survey, Criminal Victimization 1996, (November 1997)

Computerized Criminal History, Feb. 1998. NYS Division of Criminal Justice Services, OJSA/Bureau of Statistical Services.

Greenfeld, Lawrence. (1997). Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault. Washington, DC: US Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Holmes, Melissa and Resnick, Heidi A. and Kirkpatrick, Dean G. and Best, Connie L. Rape-related Pregnancy: Estimates and Descriptive Characteristics from a National Sample of Women. 1996. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Vol. 175, 2, pp. 320-325.

Koss, Mary P., The Impact of Crime Victimization on Women's Medical Use. 1993. Journal of Women's Health, 2, 1, pp. 67-72.

Laumann, Edward, et al. "The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States." Chicago: University of Chicago Press: 1994.

Miller, Ted R., Cohen, Mark A. and Wierama, Brian. Victim Costs and Consequences: A New Look. 1996. U. S. Dept. of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice.

Natl. Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control, Research in Brief, Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey. (Nov.1998)

Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992. National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, University of South Carolina, Charleston.

"Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault," 1996. U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Washington, D.C.

Strategies for the Treatment and Prevention of Sexual Assault. 1995. American Medical Association. 1995. American Medical Association

The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice. 1993. U.S. Congress. Report prepared by the Majority Staff of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

[Nancy Waterman]

70. I don't think those stats would be the same with a big celebrity

I think they are totally off in this kind of case. A fairer picture would be to look a the stats when the man is a big celebrity.

[HFishbine]

75. 2% false???

Questionable:

http://www.cjr.org/year/97/6/rape.asp

[The Stranger]

99. I'm assuming you meant to post in jest.

Certainly you are not actually citing a "statistic" for which you base your judgment of guilty, right?

You ARE KIDDING, aren't you, about being excused for nullifying the cornerstone of criminal jurisprudence -- that all people are innocent until proven guilty, right?

This IS A JOKE, right?

(Right?)

[0007]

56. So are you my friend!

It's not worth discussing any further because we don't understand your point of view? LOL!!

[ChrisNYC]

175. CAN YOU READ

My point is he chose to be famous, and his victim shouldn't be forced to suffer for that. It must be great to be able to justify destroying someone who's only alleged crime was being a victim. You DISGUST me.

[geomon]

55. I missed the trial...

"She didn't choose to be raped" when was he convicted?

[private_ryan]

94. we don't need no stinking trial. Woman says big black athlete raped her

it must be true, and unless you're a rapist sympathizer you don't question it.

Plus a trial and a defense would be like she was raped again so let's skip all that.

[ChrisNYC]

178. Great, justifying the vilification of women while using racism

as your excuse. Ever occur to you that maybe you're the only one that gives two shits what color Kobe's skin is?

[Alenne]

189. In some people's mind

the day he was accused he was convicted.

[rocktivity]

73. Ding ding ding ding ding! Chris NYC, you're our grand prize winner!

...She didn't choose to be raped, Kobe chose to be famous...

And he's allowing his fame to be used as a weapon against her accuser--indeed, it's the basis of his defense. He knows he's "famous" enough to be given the benefit of the doubt even it he did do it--after all, what's one little lady's feelings compared to the reputation of the NBA and the money that endorsers have invested in Kobe?

If we're supposed to believe that Kobe is innocent until proven guilty, the accuser should be granted the same courtesy. Publicizing her name and picture may appear to be treating them "equally," but it's not because he's famous and she isn't. Treating them equally would mean allowing her to remain not famous, that is, keeping her name a secret at least until the trial starts.

rocknation

[salin]

28. question

have you ever wondered about the well documented fact that rape is an exceptionally under-reported crime? I can think of five women off the top of my head who were raped and none of those cases were ever reported.

[The Stranger]

102. Sorry, but the fact that the crime is underreported is not relevant to

determining the guilt or innocence of one that was in fact reported.

This kind of thinking is very, very problematic.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

108. But it is relevent to revealing the identity to the accuser in the press

regardless. She wasn't using the underreported figure to argue anything else. It helps to read a comment in context, otherwise your statement appears to be a non sequitur.

[The Stranger]

117. On the contrary, the post to which she was replying states:

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."

Can't have it both ways.

If you agree in the illogic of letting the accuser remain hidden while ruining the reputation of the accused, then you agree that bunkerboy and his GITMO gulags are the correct course.

Yep - great to KNOW what the truth is without benefit of any single shread of evidence, isn't it?! Judge Jury and Executioner all in one!

Once a scumbag is PROOVEN to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, then by all means, scuer (scewer?) the pig.

Until then - gotta believe in "Innocent until PROOVEN guilty".

Otherwise, you're no better than bunkerboy.

Clearly, if she sought to limit context, she should have so stated to make this clear.

[salin]

144. No,

I sought to point out that all of these types of questions (positive and negative) go directly to part of the reason some women don't ever go and report. That is a generalized issue not germaine to this case so I asked the question as a generalized question - to make a bigger point - though not related to this case.

[salin]

139. I was asking a question

wasn't claiming it was germaine. But in these threads I have noticed that it is a related issue that is never asked. Someone elsewhere pondered if folks ever considered the question. So I asked it.

While it may not be relevant to this particular case - it is relevant to any discussion general of rape and related issues such as false allegations. It seems to be the great unasked question.

Is that an elephant in the room?

[The Stranger]

158. Perhaps it is not asked because there is no real debate over the answer.

Rape should always be reported and the perpetrators brought to justice. There is simply no two sides to that one. If there is a false claim of rape, it will be shown to be so once the evidence comes to light.

The fact that there is a stigma attached to the victim is one of the reasons put forth as why it is so underreported, but many brave women, including celebrities such as Kelly McGillis, have gone public in order to counter such a stigma and to turn the tables on their attackers.

[salin]

162. Here is the thing

if we start talking about it - seriously - we can start breaking some of the norms (and policies/procedures) that are hindrances to reporting. One can't address a problem that one won't identify and analyze.

The rate of rape in this country remains as exceptionally high as it was when I was a victim many, many years ago (eighties). The rate of reporting remains exceptionally low. (Count me as one who was not courageous for numerous reasons - some still exemplified in discussions such as these) We have yet to seriously take on this issue.

Rape, and its nonreporting is far, far more common than false accusals. False accusals are only a fraction of all accusals (and as we see here there are discrepencies over what fraction - but with the exception of one item that had a tiny sample and looked at 1 community - as best as I could see the false accusal to verified rape was always well under half - most studies seem to suggest fewer than 1 in 10 or less. Regardless if only a fraction of rapes are reported (for good measure lets just say that 40% are reported), and if only a fracition of reported rapes are likely to be false accusals (lets say that 10% are false) then the rate of false accusals is about the incidence of false accusal to the incidence of overall rape would be about 4:100; the incident of false accusals compared to the incident of non reports of rape 4:60; or 1:15. Now which is the problem we need to begin bringing down first ? I would say the incident of rape, the conditions that depress the reporting of rape, and then the issue of false accusals - if one were to look at frequency of occurence as the means for prioritizing addressing the issues.

I made those numbers up - to illustrate the point - they should not be considered to represent anything except the point that a fraction of a fraction of a whole (the total incident of rape) can NOT be the same in magnatude (somewhere someone implied that false reports of rapes were as common as rapes themselves - that is ludicrous).

Now I think it is very germain to raise the point that noone really asks the question about under reporting - which means nothing/little is done to try to address it (policy wise). I don't think we will get at the root causes of rape itself until we get a handle on identifying rape when it happens - and thus yes considering underreporting becomes a worthwhile endeavor.

[Wonder]

167. I believe you may be missing the point.

I believe that it has been raised that it is underreported has not been raised to either imply her guilt or her innocent but was raised to stress how the smears might effect other women from coming forward, and also to explain why revealing her name and photo and address and phone, etc. threatens further the alleged victim's sense of security.

I do not believe Kobes personal whereabouts have been publicized. Now what might be the results of what is a purposeful smear campaign, aimed at arguing Kobe's innocents by way of character assasination upon the victim with all these irrelant issues, are death threats. She is now receiving death threats.

You are right the fact the crime is underreported is not relevant to her guilt or innocence but relevant to her right to privacy and her sense of safety.

Quite frankly though your comments are intelligent, it has come the time for some brave men to be a bit more outspoken against rape and in defense of women as it relates not to this circus called the kobe rape trial but to the issue of rape itself. It requires men come to understand the violation itself as well as the various MALE ATTITUDES wherein their premise is based in either fear of women or anger toward modern women and in essence do seem to believe in most cases ALL WOMEN ARE DEVIOUS and are either asking to be raped or deserved to be rape.

Based on the intelligence of your comments, I would be surprised if you find it difficult to identify those men in this thread operating along those lines. If men and women would just listen more to each other rather than vying for control of each other and without all the built in defense mechanisms... A subject like this might breed a higher level of discourse between both parties, an exchange if you will, rather than this black and white thing that you will observe in this thread, and most of the others as well.

[stevedeshazer]

3. Leykis is a one-trick pony

His only topic is sex, except when he talks about sex. It's not surprising, but not okay either.

It's all about ratings in Kapitalist Amerika.

[Wonder]

47. It is little boy sophmoric laugh behind ones hand oh why bother.

Leykis is definitely not worth the breath. And guys that indulge him are lost in the crowd.

[Iris]

66. which is why his attitude is so dangerous

If they are "lost in the crowd" that means your daughter could bump into one of them sometime.

[flamingyouth]

4. Leykis is a pig

Pure and simple. I always thought that even before I read this story.

No, there is no justice for the accuser. All she has on her side is her own story and the DA. Kobe, on the other hand, has access to his millions of dollars to buy the defense he needs.

No way this guy will be convicted - no way. In the meantime, her life is ruined. Yeah, people, I'm sure she's making this up. I mean, who wouldn't want her life story spread all over talk radio like this?

[bemildred]

8. Leykis is a pig.

:thumbsup:

If the young lady decided to accuse Mr. Bryant in late July
in the expectation of anything other than a classic Summer
media frenzy, then she is in for a rude awakening. It will be
like a pack of dogs arguing over a bone all Summer long.

[Wonder]

44. Leykis is a pig

that I have no problem saying outright he plays to the worst possible nature of the male. He is the last person to be advocating for an alleged rape victim. This is sick!!

[TankLV]

6. Good for him!

It's about time!

If you're going to make a serious accusation, and one is innocent until PROOVEN guilty, then accusing someone annomously of a crime, while being able to hide in anonymity is despicable!

If the accused is indeed innocent, the slimeball that makes the accusation is able to tarnish an innocent person's reputation and get away with it.

Ideally, it would be preferable that until a jury verdict is rendered, that ALL parties to such lawsuits/indictments remain annonomous until the complete disposition of the case. Only a complete "gag" order to ALL parties, press, etc. under threat/follow thru of a very high penalty, would be the truely fair course.

[hlthe2b]

9. I'm probably going to regret answering this...

because TankLV, we generally have agreed on things in the past...

But by your logic, we should parade all the 10 year old children molested by priests through the media-- after all, they did commit the sin of speaking out and accusing their molester....

In a society that was not so repressed about all things sexual, perhaps your argument would hold. While I agree with your concern about the damage to the reputation of Kobe if he is innocent, what has transpired assures most women will not speak out against their attackers. Then rapists will be free to continue-- perhaps going after someone you love. In that instance, I'd guess you might feel a bit different.

[TankLV]

12. Please read my post thoroughly.

I believe, until the outcome is determined, that ALL identities should remain hidden.

If "the cat is out fo the bag", then, as far as adults are concerned at least, then, it should be the REQUIREMENT to identify ALL parties to the case. That is the only fair outcome.

There have been many well-known recent cases where accusations of child molestation have been later prooven wrong, don't forget. But, of course, the dead man/woman isn't around to enjoy the exoneration.

We are talking about life and death issues here, don't forget.

I believe in the sanctity of our judicial system (in spite of the selection 2000).

Looks like in Asscraps Amerika all you need is an accusation anyway.

[hlthe2b]

13. Re:

"I believe, until the outcome is determined, that ALL identities should remain hidden."

So, two "wrongs" make one "right?"

[TankLV]

17. Fair is fair.

I could also make the "two wrongs" argument.

All I'm urging is an even situation for all parties.

This is just like what the repukes have been doing to the democrats - do one thing, then change the rules when the other party does the same thing.

Ruin an innocent person's life. But it's OK as long as the accuser can get away with it? Sorry, your logic just don't cut it.

[Syrinx]

19. You are absolutely correct, in my opinion

I've never understood why it's okay to disclose the identity of the accused, who is presumed innocent, until proven guilty, while it's forbidden to tell who the accuser is, who, if the charges are true, is an innocent victim. Ain't fair.

[Eloriel]

24. Let me explain it to you

The crime of rape still carries ENORMOUS SHAME and stigma in this society. Rape is first of all an intensely personal, excruciatingly humiliating thing to endure as a victim. It's something that some women never fully recover from. It also is something that their FAMILIES don't often recover from.

Any rape victim who is in a committed relationship knows that their partners don't always get through it without the relationship breaking up. Even parents can have extremely negative reactions to one of their children being raped. It's SHAMEFUL. Maybe it oughtn't be, but it is. There are those who argue that the very silence about the identities of victims ensures that this shame continues, but just as it's not nice to out gays and lesbians, it's not nice to out rape victims.

One of the reasons it's so shameful to have been raped in this society is that there are all those old blame-the-victim stereotypes still running around. It seems the times haven't changed all that much. We've seen plenty of them tossed up here at DU: what was she doing in that room with him, and after midnight! (as if doing that somehow invalidates her right to her own body and takes away her right to say "no").

She's lying. She's just out for the money. She's mentally imbalanced. She's starstruck, and/or wants her own fame. She's a spurned lover. She's out for revenge.

Puh-leeze. False accusation happens SO infrequently, and the numbers of UNreported rapes are so great, as to be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. And I really mean INCONSEQUENTIAL.

So -- when do we go after the victims of muggings and theft the same way: Why were you wearing that expensive watch and driving that nice car in a bad neighborhood? Why were you dressed like that, in your expensive suit -- just asking for it? Why were you all alone and at that hour -- don't you know people who do that are just asking for trouble? Why were you nice to that stranger? You're lying. You're just looking for attention. You're just miffed that your attacker wasn't interested in you. You're mentally unstable. You just broke up with your girlfriend and are depressed.

You bet I will ALWAYS believe an "alleged" rape victim over her "alleged" attacker. Women don't volunteer to go through this hell of actually reporting a rape and seeing it through trial for the FUCKING FUN OF IT.

Get a clue, people.

Eloriel

[Syrinx]

27. People who are mugged don't have special rules to protect their identity

It seems to me that being accused of being a rapist has a lot more stigma than being a rape victim. Even if Kobe Bryant is innocent and acquitted, the idea that he is a rapist will follow him the rest of his life.

I have more than a clue, thank you very much.

[salin]

32. let me go on the record

as saying - that I think that false reporting rape is heinous. It makes the attitude that those future victims who bring charges "must be lying" and somehow lead to greater empathy for the accused (it is WORSE for him) than for the accusee.

We treat rape victims horribly in this country.

False accusers perpetuate and exacerbate the problem.

And how did we raise so many frickin' rapists in the first place? When one in three women between the age of 18-30 are likely to be raped, it is pretty clear that it isn't the same two guys running around committing all of the crimes.

These comments are not directly related to the post above - just a generalized rant.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. if you don't want the stigma of being accused of Rape

don't rape anyone.

False accusations are very rare, but you would never know it by the posts on DU.

[StandWatie]

82. Maybe I just know flakes..

but when I was younger I put a serious whuping on a guy because he "raped" my girlfriend, a year later or so for some reason she starts hemming and hawing about it and says it was more like a date rape thing and then she wound up going out with the guy later :shrug:

I've seen that a couple other times also, this is just anecdotal experience but I've seen false accusations, I'm not saying that's what happened but I don't believe this maniputlation of stats that everyone knows are garbage because 1)Rape is an unreported (at a legal level where you can gather statistics) crime and 2) There are some serious grey areas in people's definition of rape, I know someone is going to come along and define it for me and swear that's the gospel definition but it doesn't change the fact that culturally there is a wide swath of exactly what crosses the line in consent.

[Wonder]

95. some serious grey areas in people's definition of rape

I can only speak from various experiences through out the years.

some of that serious grey area is on the part of the male. The do not know where the boundaries are.

some of that grey are exists on the female side too. That that might harbor guilt about sex. You know the no no no and then the surrender to yes. This I can see can be confusing for a guy. If he really cares for the girl he will be responsive enough to now the difference between that kind of no and a NO.

What happens is that guys some of them operate too much by this no means yes premise and even if the girls no persists the has it in his head it really means no if he could get her to surrender rather than she finally surrendering full to a firm yes. In that instance he will than maker her surrender by being more forceful she might continue to fight him but stop fighting as it becomes clear to he is stronger.

Let us put it this way. If the guy has to fight to hard to MAKE HER SURRENDER in these instances when it is not a clean cut no no no YES, BUT MORE A no no no no no no and finally she physically surrenders because he makes her rather than her surrendering on her own volition. therein is where the force crosses over the line.

It would be my guess that in these scenarios the girl is young. Although many both men and women actually do carry around alot of guilt about sex... I grant you there is grey area in these cases.

That is why I suggest both genders have to be reconditioned. Education is necessary for both girls and boys. Girls must be aware and made more conscious of the sexual terrains. Problem is sex is out of control in our society and the trend does seem on occasion to lean toward a more violent scenario for pleasure. Not for me, I am not talking on a personal level. These are hyptheticals that came to mind from your post.

This is the grey area I assume you are alluding to

AND THEN AGAIN ON EDIT

perhaps it is also true you might know too many flakes. Of course I do not know if that is try. Unfortunately, I can even believe your girlfriend was forced by that guy you beat up. And may have serious problems that move into that S&M area wherein she is screwed up and defines the male by force who knows. That is a very disturbing story to me that you shared.

[RapidCreek]

123. Really?....

When I was younger...I had a young lady take me into her bedroom. She took off her cloths and took off my cloths, jumped on her bed and pulled me on top of her. Then she started with the no no no routine....at which point, I got up, put my cloths on and left. She called me a boring limpdick on my way out the door.

Hmmmm, go figure. Well I might be a boring limpdick but I ain't never been charged with rape.

RC

[Wonder]

128. smart man

i am aware the no no no thing is fucked up. But in young woman when sex is new to them it occurs in that very innocent way. I am not making excuses for it. But I does happen. There is an instance you just recounted where that girl was very confused. You did the right thing. '

No one says it is black or white. This is not just about women or just about men.

Their are probably numerous scenarios on this no no no yes thing.'

You wanted a yes a firm yes. You were right. She was confused. I can only guess on why. I don't know why and neither would the young boy or the guy. Now if you forced the issue instead. And her ambivalence was rooted in lack of experience or that something neither of us may understand cause her discomfort, which while it doesn't sound like it as you describe it...it could be. Here is where the trouble begins. She looks like she is say yes... but says no as the act begins. It is not for you to decide that that no means yes. and you didn't you heard no and acted upon the no whether you understood it or not.

You have never been charged with rape because it sounds to me you understand a no under whatever circumstances it is stated. She might have felt cavalier until the act began and something (having potentially nothing to do with you) changed. In her case I do not know why and I really don't care for any more details. But you heard no and responded to no. didn't need the sex that bad. Probably she really was not ready to have sex, but thought she was. I do not know how young she was.

Quite frankly I have had one experience that comes to mind when a while ago, when a male backed out during foreplay. It happens. I did not force the issue either. I respected that however odd it seemed to me at the time he knew his own comfort zones.

[RapidCreek]

174. Actually she wasn't confused....Far from it....

I was a virgin and she was not......far from it, as a matter of fact. Vicky Ray was a vixen in every sense of the word. What she was doing was playing a little "dominate me" game....one which I chose not to partake in. What she said, she said while smirking.

I am eternally thankful for having a dad who warned me of such situations and explained how to deal with them should they crop up. Unfortunately his lessons have also left me with a fear to initiate sex in new relationships. In a culture where men are expected to be the initiators, this fear has caused some hurt feelings. Most of the women I have dated have asked me out...and I've left the initiation of intimacy up to them. Looking back I realize I left many women I would love to have dated with the impression that I wasn't interested. In fact a few, now married, have mentioned it. Heheheh oh well. :)

Hi Dorian, if you're out there!!! :hi: I loved all those Oreos you used to bring me. Sorry I was a little slow on the uptake....

RC

[Wonder]

197. that's interesting

I am certain some women can be shady. Should could be a vixen. The behavior could be analysed completely differently. I observe a general tendency (i stress general) in the female to vie for control, but the man for the most part can excersize choice in most cases a women will not be able to physically overpower him or force him to do what he chooses not to. Unless in the case of a young boy and yet even young boys are taking bets as to whether or not they can slam down their chemistry teach who they think is hot.

Yes those vixen's in every sense of the word. Too bad there are some men addicted to these vixen's in every sense of the word. In some instances they hate to love them and love to hate them. While I can rationalize this dynamic intellectually it certainly is not representative of all women. Type specific perhaps means one generates toward the same pleasures and the same pains, and then decides that their experience is representative of the whole dymnamic

Be that as it may, how are you applying this experience or scenario of yours to the original post in this thread?

[RapidCreek]

210. I am certain more than just some women can be shady

I would suggest that just as many women are shady as are men....it just manifests itself in different ways. To suggest otherwise would be sexist. Women in fact do have power over men....certainly not physical power, but power none the less. They have the sort of power Cleopatra used on Caesar. They have the power to incite men to pay to see them naked. They have the power to entice 85 year geriatrics to marry them and leave them, instead of their families, everything they own when they die. They have the power to charge men to have sex. They have the power to convince a man to spend 3 months worth of salary on a hunk of worthless shiny rock they can wear on their middle finger to impress their friends and enemies. They have the power to get a married professional athlete to invite them up to his hotel room. They have the power to attract a good man, bear and raise children and make a house a home. They have the power to inspire men to great deeds or drive them to the depths of depravity. Their power, like a mans physicality, can be harnessed in a positive or negative fashion...They are no less responsible for the results of its implementation, however. Suggesting otherwise only affirms the average rednecks philosophy that women are somehow inferior to men.

The experience I wrote of was not directed at the original post in this thread. It was directed at yours...which it seemed to me, made the argument that women who say "no, no, no" are somehow representative of the whole dynamic of innocent, unsure, virginal young women, who lack an understanding of the power of their sexuality. The fact is is that if we didn't see birds fly...we wouldn't know that they could and if women didn't play the no means yes game men wouldn't be confused as to the true intent of a women's respective expression of these words. I am not suggesting that a man who is sucked into this game or operates under the impression that no means yes lacks responsibility if it doesn't play out the way he would like it to. What I am suggesting is that all women who say "no, no, no" are not representative of the dynamic you seem inclined to place them in and I speak from practical experience. I find the "no, no, no" game to be repulsive in the extreme, first because it paints me and other men as some sort of subhuman hump monkeys who lack the personality to inspire equal desire in a sexual partner or the moral integrity to care. More importantly however, I believe that such coquettish games serve to facilitate a defense in the minds of potential rapists and this propagates a very dangerous world for the women I love and respect.

If you are interested in my feelings on the original post in this thread scroll on down and you might get an idea as to how I feel about the situation in general. I didn't respond to the original post because it is not addressed to my mind set. Frankly, I didn't even know who the hell Koby Bryant or the radio announcer in question were until yesterday.

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek

[Wonder]

218. the ovum and the anger

Okay Rapid Creek,

In an attempt to clarify. I wasn't making excuses for women who say no no no but mean yes. I offered up an example when it is innocent from the perspective of how girls and boys are socialized differently in terms of the sex game. my scenario perhaps is more old fashioned more indicative of my generatio rather than the current generation, yet not without merit.

I gave two scenarios of no no no yes of a girl who ISN'T this vixen who is running some power game for her own sexual pleasure. This cleopatraesque. black widow spider. man-eating woman, who many men I encounter seem to have great angst about, while at the very same time they are as fascinated with the game. I allude to both those men that have the "power" allure (which they too are playing) and those men just get caught up in the big show, and this applies to females too.

Both Men and Women on that dominatrix type trip (from one degree to the other) are playing a hedonistic and narsacistic game that goes back to the dawn of civilization. In those instances it is the power that feeds the lust. And that goes also for women who chase players. Some of these woman like the flash, some the money, some the lifestyle, some of the above, all of the above. This takes us into a realm that I was not addressing. My no no no yes examples were much more pedestrian than that. You make it sound like the vixen's are in the majority and the more pedestrian are in the minority. I am not just not going to go round and round with you on that centrifuge.

From my perspective and to some extent it seems to me those males that are getting repeatedly burnt by this type of game are allowing themselves to be victimized. These are the men that to some degree preceive themselves to be loosing at the game because afterall look how deliciously wicked she is. I say it's a game and why play it? And yes the argument works for both genders. It is called power lust. And I say those that fall into that trap repeatedly (and I am off topic now) they deserve each other.

This more jaded and sticky kind of edgy almost sadist masochistic vixen medusa hinges upon the ova and jungian quandary. Okay I feel that at one time it had some merit, BUT at this point the archetypic mother whore bullshit is almost a set up. It seems to me that the objectification of the female has been projected on to her by this jungian male fixated construct. In his struggle to break from the mother and distinquish between the nurturer, the temptress, confused with his own lust.

This objectification seems to be almost a fantasy of the male, proven by the images coming out of madison ave all these years, WHICH now females have embraced almost completely, and woman too are convinced that her power lies in her sexuality. (I am speaking in broad strokes I am aware). Funny how we can objectify the woman yet find it near to impossible to be objective about her.

Now it seems to me that THIS is the springboard from which many of the male arguments plunge themselves into this Kobe debate here on forum. Therefore, they are insisting that is only this scenario that is most probable. Others here are not arguing the innocence or guilty of either of these people, but merely trying to shed some light upon the more PEDESTRIAN MECHANISMS OF THE RAPE MENTALITY. Instead within these discusions it seems rather than to discuss that, it is Kobe's innocence or guilt that is much more important. I misunderstood I thought we were talking about something related but as it addresses the rape mentality rather than whether Kobe is innocent or guilty and she is this maneating temptress.

My no no no yes was much more pedestrian and has as much merit as your vixen powerlust scenario. But remaining so polarized regarding something that is IN FACT a violent trend indicative of some pretty deep anger in the male seems to me wasted discussion. So I will just chalk it up to people here are trying to tell me what the male is angry about.

In case you hadn't noticed EVERYONE HAS ANGER THEY CAN JUSTIFY. At one point all have to take responsibility for their own anger and get a grip on it without always having to point the finger outward and vomit all over someone outside themselves. Fine the male is angry. I buy that. Some of his anger about women I even share. Some of his anger is justified. Some of it benign, some of it is displaced, some misdirected which can also be life threatening.

I am way off topic because I was never talking about kobe. I was addressing a societal problem it's called Rape. It IS real and some lead to murder. Okay. Fine. We can heap all this freudian crap on the table but so the fuck what? It doesn't get us anywhere. But great!

I understand the anger of the male (in broadstrokes). He is mad at Cleopatra, and all of his anger is not because of Cleopatra. All women are not Cleopatra either. From my vantage point it seems to me that Cleopatra is generally perceived by the male as more alluring but better watch out for the sting. Yeah! I get it. A Simplication. Fine.

But guess what?

Cleopatra is justifiably angry too. So are those women who are not Cleopatra, but I understand these are the women we are the least concerned with so obsessed with Cleopatra. So I ask anyone ever wonder what the hell Cleopatra is so angry about. The other more pedestrian girls? Well after all it's the talking heads, the groove tube and the matinee is our idol, so we'll just forget about them altogether because the alleged victim is Cleopatra. Fine I am running out a time here.

I went on a bender Rapid Creek have not a clue if I addressed your post and I'm tired to boot. So I am just going to proof it. and round and round it goes...

BTW I am not sure I have read all of your posts the few I have read it seems to me you too are obessed with Cleopatra, but I reserve final judgement because I can not say for sure that I have read all your posts.

[Dhalgren]

83. Let me try to explain this thing.

The State is required to prosecute cases publicly. The State brings chargesof a crime - not the victim. The accused has the right to be confronted by his/her accuser - the public has no right to know the accuser. The accused, however, must be made public, because the State cannot prosecute in secret.

This has nothing to do with "fairness" or "legality". The prosecution has to be public, the victim does not.

[Dhalgren]

84. Let me try to explain this thing.

The State is required to prosecute cases publicly. The State brings charges of a crime - not the victim. The accused has the right to be confronted by his/her accuser - the public has no right to know the accuser. The accused, however, must be made public, because the State cannot prosecute in secret.

This has nothing to do with "fairness" or "legality". The prosecution has to be public, the victim does not. The State, the society at large, is also the victim, here. If Kobe raped this young woman he should be punished - but only after a public trial. He must be confronted by his accuser - but the public has no such right.

[salin]

31. beyond the stigma - is the general treatment of scorn heaped on the

victim as so many immediately assume she must be lying. From the treatment many - of those who actually report the crime - starting with the police and the treatment in their questioning, to the media, to the attorneys trying the case, etc. This level of immediate blame on the victim - from she must have done something to provoke it if it even ever happened - to outright immediate belief that she is lying about it - where the victim becomes the criminal - is pretty unique to the crime of rape.

[The_Counsel]

71. I Have To Disagree (Somewhat)...

"One of the reasons it's so shameful to have been raped in this society is that there are all those old blame-the-victim stereotypes still running around. It seems the times haven't changed all that much. We've seen plenty of them tossed up here at DU: what was she doing in that room with him, and after midnight! (as if doing that somehow invalidates her right to her own body and takes away her right to say "no")."

I have to take some exception to this, E.

Doesn't it seem that the SMART woman who absolutely has the right to protect her own body would best do so by STAYING OUT OF A SITUATION WHERE SHE COULD BE RAPED? I mean really, there's no indication based on the evidence we have so far that Kobe invited this woman to his room to play Scrabble. Even if he did, she would have been better served to say "you know what? Go get your Scrabble board, bring it downstairs, and we can play in the lobby . Taking nothing away from the heinous stupidity that is Kobe's action, there are ways this woman could have protected herself.

I hear more women using that same mentality than men -- and I agree.


"You bet I will ALWAYS believe an "alleged" rape victim over her "alleged" attacker. Women don't volunteer to go through this hell of actually reporting a rape and seeing it through trial for the FUCKING FUN OF IT."

Agreed. Which is why the Eagle County authorities seem to be handling this so delicately. I didn't much care for the "pre-publicity" the case got, but once they got the evidence they needed, they charged the hoops-playin' bastid. Part of why they played it that way is because of all those false accusers that make it harder for the REAL victims. It's too bad, really...

[Eloriel]

77. What you don't seem to understand

is that your argument is both a more sophisticated (or, kinder-gentler) form of blame the victim and it also helps extend the violence against women:

Doesn't it seem that the SMART woman who absolutely has the right to protect her own body would best do so by STAYING OUT OF A SITUATION WHERE SHE COULD BE RAPED?

Here's the feminist (and my) view: When you suggest that women should have to be careful, you're saying that it's okay for women to have to live their lives with the specter of rape hanging over their heads and that they should do what is necessary to curtail their own lives to accommodate the "reality" of a society where violence against women is rampant. Whether you underestand it or not, you are sanctioning the status quo and tacitly approving a society where violence against women doesn't just harm women who are victims but harms ALL women because we are less free to live our lives than men.

Further, it's a form of blame the victim because you are saying rape won't happen if the woman takes proper steps to protect herself. Therefore, if she hasn't protected herself sufficiently, she has brought it on herself: she is partially or entirely to blame.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCE YOU CAN NAME IN WHICH THE RAPE VICTIM HAS BROUGHT IT ON HERSELF. None. NONE! In every and all cases, even if she is a prostitute, every woman has the right to say no. She has the right to control over her own body and NOTHING she can do --including having said yes previously or earlier -- erases, erodes or eliminates that right. Nothing.

ANother point is that most rapes by a large percentage are by perps the woman knows. The much smaller percentage is stranger rape. (Wish I had stats at my fingers or the time to go find them, I do not.) But we're talking well over 50% -- 70, 80, possibly 90% of rapists are known to the victim. What this means is that the typical "advice" that a woman should live her life in constant fear of rape from some stranger isn't even that helpful.

From a societal point of view, violence against women must be seen for what it is: a systemic set of dynamics intended (tho not consciously) to keep women terrorized (mildly, except for those who are victims), keep their movements and freedom curtailed, and in general keep them in their place.

You're not helping. ;-)

Eloriel

[salin]

80. try this one out

college age female, generally good kid, friend of many.

Male friend - who one time had gone out on a date - no sex - considered friend - knocks on the apartment door late at night.

Girl thinks... gee its late, this friend must be having some kind of problem... she gets dressed and lets him in.

They talk for awhile - she notices he's pretty drunk. He kisses her... she tries to get him to back off. He notices the roomate is out (since it is late presumably the roomie is out for the night). Starts trying to drag the girl into the girls bedroom.

She says no in a zilliion ways. Tries rationalizing with him - thinking that if he realizes that she REALLY does not want to have sex - he will back off - they are 'friends' after all.

Gets to the point where he physically starts dragging her - she is too stunned to have normal reactions like hitting, and screaming wouldn't matter as it is a stand alone house - no one would here. So she does a "deadweight" drop to the floor - to at least make dragging her more difficult... nothing seems to work.

I will end the story here.

No reporting - because it would become a "he said, she said" thing. Besides at the time no one ever heard of "acquaintance rape" wasn't rape just a stranger jumping out with a knife? No words to even describe what happened. Then came the... "what is wrong with me that someone thinks I am the type of girl that one can come over in the middle of the night and have sex with me... do I send that message?" stage...

Should the girl be so nervous about all males coming to her place late (and in college towns kids are often showing up late and unannounced to each others homes - this alone is not an unusual scenario) that she takes precautions. And when it is a friend that comes to the door, what should those precautions be?

It is so easy to put the responsibility of not being raped on the girl - telling her to be careful and safe and not put herself into vulnerable situations. Well duh. But sometimes it isn't known what is vulnerable and what isn't. And why should the entire onus be upon her anyway?

Lets take the Kobe thing for a minute. Part of the public response/support is based on his Good Mature Boy persona. So the girl, lets presume is starstruck, lets say he invites her to drop by to talk more (or even have a drink) when she gets off work. Its late so maybe (who knows) the hotel bar is already closed so the place to go is his room. Now she knows his good boy persona, maybe even knows he is married, so wouldn't she presume that this should be a safe situation? Again perhaps it is a foolish assumption, but perhaps it is an understandable one?

I have NO idea what happened and who is guilty or not.

I just had to give a counter perspective on the "she should know" argument, and the "girls should always take precautions" line of discussion. Sometimes it is a little more complex. I am not ready to impute motives, nor explanations on this girl and this situation. I don't know the details and think it is inappropriate at this time to do so. But I do have a little bit of empathy when only one explanation (she should KNOW - and thus we KNOW what she was thinking) is the one primarily offered in a discussion.

[The_Counsel]

186. Thanks for the Insight...

I appreciate both scenarios because the comparison between the two proves my point...

In your first story, the victim did EVERYTHING SHE COULD UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES to prevent that rape. The perp was just stupid. He should have gotten time. And he should burn in hell for his act -- alcohol notwithstanding...

The second scenario kind of illustrates what I've been saying. We don't know all the facts, but one we do know is that the two had just met when Bryant arrived at the resort. Yeah, she may have seen this man on TV in all his "clean-cut" glory, but COME ON, people! It's TELEVISION! How many times have our parents told us we can't believe everything we see on television? I don't care how "nice" the guy appears on television, YOU DON'T KNOW HIM. You just don't. In fact, half the NBA is coming to that realization about Kobe as you read this.

That's all I'm saying. Be responsible. Protect yourself.

[The_Counsel]

179. I Sort Of Expected This, But Let's Examine...

"When you suggest that women should have to be careful, you're saying that it's okay for women to have to live their lives with the specter of rape hanging over their heads and that they should do what is necessary to curtail their own lives to accommodate the "reality" of a society where violence against women is rampant. Whether you underestand it or not, you are sanctioning the status quo and tacitly approving a society where violence against women doesn't just harm women who are victims but harms ALL women because we are less free to live our lives than men."

No, I'm not saying "it's okay."

At no point did I say that the situation was as it should be. It's too bad that women should HAVE to say "gee, this guy is inviting me to his room. I'd really like to go, but what am I getting myself into if I do?" But then it is what it is, unfortunately.

And BTW, violence against EVERYONE is rampant...


"Further, it's a form of blame the victim because you are saying rape won't happen if the woman takes proper steps to protect herself. Therefore, if she hasn't protected herself sufficiently, she has brought it on herself: she is partially or entirely to blame."

Again, it is what it is.

No, the victim isn't 100% responsible (I really don't like the term "blame" in this instance, but that's just me), but there is SOME responsiblity in putting one's self in that situation. It's not like Bryant dragged her up to his room (though I do acknowledge that public evidence hasn't proven or refuted that as yet).

I know this isn't nearly on the same plane, but I don't want to be beaten up and robbed in a dark alley. So what do I do to help prevent that? I stay out of dark alleys. From there, the only way I'd be caught dead in one is if someone or something dragged me there.



"THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CIRCUMSTANCE YOU CAN NAME IN WHICH THE RAPE VICTIM HAS BROUGHT IT ON HERSELF. None. NONE!"

True.

But I never said that.

Did I say that the victim said "please, Mr. Bryant... I WANT you to rape me! There it is! Take it!"? No. I never said that. Check my posts. You won't find it.

I'm just saying there are ways we can defend ourselves against harm. If we do that one of two things would happen: either NO harm would come to us, or the perpetrator would simply have to try harder to bring that harm to us.



"In every and all cases, even if she is a prostitute, every woman has the right to say no. She has the right to control over her own body and NOTHING she can do --including having said yes previously or earlier -- erases, erodes or eliminates that right. Nothing."

That's what I've been saying. What better way to say "no" than to make it crystal clear that the question should never be asked in the first place? In fact, now that I think of it, an excellent compromise would be to say "sure I'll come up to your room, but I'm tellin' you now: NO SEX INVOLING ME WILL JUMP OFF TONIGHT. ZERO. So get it out of your dirty little mind, Kobe..." There it is. Attempt to protect self made. Hopefully the last one.

But again, for all we know, it probably happened exactly like that. It'll come out in the trial.



"ANother point is that most rapes by a large percentage are by perps the woman knows. The much smaller percentage is stranger rape. (Wish I had stats at my fingers or the time to go find them, I do not.) But we're talking well over 50% -- 70, 80, possibly 90% of rapists are known to the victim. What this means is that the typical "advice" that a woman should live her life in constant fear of rape from some stranger isn't even that helpful."

I'm sure Kobe introduced himself before he invited this woman to his room. I'm also fairly certain Desiree Washington at least knew Mike Tyson's name before she made that fateful trek down to his limo and later to his room. Neither scenario changes my view.

Tyson got time for his crime. He should have taken a cold shower before messing with Washington -- he paid with 6 years worth of freedom. Kobe should have flown his wife in if he was just that horny -- he may pay with his freedom, too. Rightfully so on both counts.

But it also helps to make it CLEAR that "hey, I'm not THINKIN' about having sex with you tonight. Get it out of your head." One way to do that is to not be alone in a hotel room with the man at 2 am (in Desiree's case).

BTW, I trust you on the numbers. That's about what I remember seeing... :-)



"From a societal point of view, violence against women must be seen for what it is: a systemic set of dynamics intended (tho not consciously) to keep women terrorized (mildly, except for those who are victims), keep their movements and freedom curtailed, and in general keep them in their place."

I admit: I'll never understand the concept of rape. Why do some men do it (other than they're crazy)? When I found out that most rapes are acts of violence (as opposed to straight-up sex), it blew my mind. "That's stupid," I thought. "Wouldn't it be easier to just go upside the person's head with a 2x4 if you just want to be 'violent'?" It doesn't make sense to me -- which is why I loathe the act even more...

...but what I DON'T believe is that there is some sort of conspiracy to keep women down, one rape at a time. There isn't some "rapist union" that, with each reported incident, says "there, that ought to shut them up for a while." To believe something like that actually takes away from the seriousness of the crime, IMO.

Wanna know what I believe? I believe all convicted rapists should be given a choice: castration or death. I'm serious! "Your cock or your life! You got five minutes. Make up your mind now!" All undecided rapists are immediately castrated, THEN killed. Either way, they won't commit the crime again. Also note that I said absolutely nothing about an appeals process...

And while we're at it, can we please make adultery a felony in this country? There's already a Commandment agaisnt it; why the HELL is it still legal? I'll bet we'd see less situations like the one Kobe Bryant finds himself in now...

[Wonder]

134. STAYING OUT OF A SITUATION WHERE SHE COULD BE RAPED

That is the cameila paglia route. I understand what you are saying. I advise caution all the time. However, I stated in no uncertain terms when I except a date with my rapist. I stated clearly I was knew in town and was looking only to make friends, and would except the date if he understood that. He said he did. We knew some of the same people. I really had no reason to suspect this man would rape I was already 32yo. I had never had the problem before. Mostly men understood delineations. And after the rape looking back I saw how many times I had actually placed myself in much more percarious situations then on this date.

He was very conversant, I was confident with the fact that I had already stated where I was coming from. I stated it from the beginning because I know most men don't like the friend scenario if they have other motives for the date. So I needed to be sure he understood I wasn't interested at that time in anything more than making friends. He told me he understood and made no overtures prior regarding any other interests. After the date we went back to my place. Mostly we talked for another 2 3 hours. It was after midnight and all of the conversation was topical. Finally I stated I was tired and wanted to go to bed. He seemed fine with this. Went to the bathroom and came back out with a knife... I tried to fight him. I lost.

In the case of Kobe and this girl. We can all offer her after the fact what she should have done. Our intentions might be in the right place. But she didn't offer a game of scrabble. She is 19 and this is Kobe Bryant, I agree it was very risky what she did. Does not justify rape.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. I know! Maybe we could put mini-cams in our vaginas and tape recorders

in our bellybuttons with a date mark and time stamp that states: This penis invited, this penis wasn't invited.

WOULD any SPORTS LOVING fan decline an invitation to spend time with Kobe?

Really...ask yourself


would anyone who LOVES Bball automatically have a reasonable expectation that Kobe who has been help up as a GOD of all that is good and wholesome in American sports have a reasonable expectation that Kobe would rape them?

Just look at this and other Kobe threads. While I withhold actual judgement on him until the trial, and do believe the accused should have the benefit of the doubt as a matter of justice, would any of those claiming the alleged victim is in it for secondary gain refuse an offer to go hang out with Kobe?

[The_Counsel]

191. Thanks, But I'm Trying To Cut Down On Hyperbole...

"WOULD any SPORTS LOVING fan decline an invitation to spend time with Kobe?

Really...ask yourself"

I would think most sports loving fans would remember the story of Mike Tyson. I know the woman is 19, but it wasn't that long ago, and it still comes up from time to time at the very mention of his name...


"would anyone who LOVES Bball automatically have a reasonable expectation that Kobe who has been help up as a GOD of all that is good and wholesome in American sports have a reasonable expectation that Kobe would rape them?"

Is there any reason at all why a corporate-driven media would allow Kobe's dirty little secret out unless they had to?

Everyone who was reasonably sure that O.J. Simpson could murder someone BEFORE the bodies were found raise your hands...


"Just look at this and other Kobe threads. While I withhold actual judgement on him until the trial, and do believe the accused should have the benefit of the doubt as a matter of justice, would any of those claiming the alleged victim is in it for secondary gain refuse an offer to go hang out with Kobe?"

I dunno... they probably would.

That doesn't diminish that potential danger in that attitude, though...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

200. Hardly a worthy rebuttal from a guy named COUNSEL

I would think most sports loving fans would remember the story of Mike Tyson. I know the woman is 19, but it wasn't that long ago, and it still comes up from time to time at the very mention of his name...

One is a boxer with a history of violence, the other presented as just the opposite.

Is there any reason at all why a corporate-driven media would allow Kobe's dirty little secret out unless they had to?

So what?...only serves to prove my point that no one would have a reasonable expectation.


Everyone who was reasonably sure that O.J. Simpson could murder someone BEFORE the bodies were found raise your hands...

not valid, OJ was found not guilty, Counselor.

[The_Counsel]

206. YOU'RE To Talk About "Worthy"...

"One is a boxer with a history of violence, the other presented as just the opposite."

...and your point is what, exactly?

BOTH are (or should be) well-known to the "sports loving fans" you mentioned, right?

And at the time of the Tyson rape, the general public never thought that was something he was capable of. Knocking someone silly in the street, yes. Rape, no. Of course those who knew him personally also knew the truth a little differently, but that's a different matter...


"Is there any reason at all why a corporate-driven media would allow Kobe's dirty little secret out unless they had to?

So what?...only serves to prove my point that no one would have a reasonable expectation."

How?

Was it reasonable for all those women Ted Bundy killed to believe that he wouldn't harm them? I'll bet more than a few women were leery of men wearing casts asking for help on the side of a road after THAT episode...



"not valid, OJ was found not guilty, Counselor."

The point is QUITE valid.

Ask any ten people about that case, and it's likely at least five of them still believe he was guilty -- despite his acquittal. My point is perception, not legal outcomes...

[private_ryan]

97. get a clue people

"The crime of rape still carries ENORMOUS SHAME and stigma in this society"

Being accused of rape carries A LOT MORE shame and stigma than being raped in this society.

[Wonder]

101. still havent answer my question

and you do not seem to be responsive to any of the points made on the other side. It seems an either or deal for you. No middle ground seems evident at all in your short dictates on this one point. It seems odd to me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

130. So that's why high school groups such as the "Spur Posse" committed rape

and scored each other's results. Right?

[RapidCreek]

110. This is a hard one for me.....

I would ask those folks banging the drum for exposure of the accuser to consider the following scenario.

Let's assume that you claimed you were raped by a male sports star under similar circumstances of that described by the lady in question. Let's further assume that you are male. Would you appreciate your identity being made public? Would you advocate it? Would you make it known yourself? I would hazard to guess most men would not. Why then should a female accusers identity be exposed?

Where I have a problem is the siting of "studies" as a measure of the probability of guilt or innocence. Studies are just that...studies. I place little value on them as each case brought in court is unique. If this were not the case we could save litigants and the court allot of time and money and determine guilt based on odds.

Below are some personal experiences I've had. Two involve rape and one the deviant sexual habits of young women and the men they find appealing. Considering all three I would have difficulty allying myself with either side in this discussion.

While serving in the Navy I was involved in two rape cases. In the first I brought down a Master Chief Petty Officer for raping/molesting a female recruit at Orlando Navel Training Center. The young woman who brought to my attention, what was occurring, was very frightened and hesitant to do so. I had to drag it out of her. As it turned out this Master Chief had been engaging in such abuses for quite some time and as things unfolded more victims and several witnesses came forward and substantiated her claims. To my knowledge the Master Chief is serving time in Leavenworth to this day.

A year later, on a different base, I was called upon by Navy Legal and asked whether one of the Seamen Apprentices under my command had been working certain hours on a certain day. As it turned out, a girl whom he had been dating, also in the Navy, had filed a charge of rape against him as retribution for breaking up with her. On the day and time which she asserted this rape occurred, the man she accused, was doing paper work in my office. It should be pointed out, under the UCMJ one could receive the death penalty if convicted of rape, at that time. While it was rare...it was still a very real possibility.

While working security at a Hotel in Chicago frequented by professional athletes, I had occasion to observe female employees sneaking up to the athletes rooms after work. Most worked at the Front Desk or for the Concierge. These women weren't going to athletes rooms to play Parcheesi. The women who engaged in this behavior were looking for glory fucks and/or men with money. I know this was their motivation because they bragged about it.

The specifics of the case being discussed in this thread leave allot of room for speculation, in my opinion. From my own experiences I recognize that arguments from either side are relative and either may have merit. None of the specifics will be sorted out until it is heard in court. To hypothesize one way or the other as to the validity of either parties claims is really a waste of time.

As to the exposure of the identity of the accuser or the accused, I think that it is a disservice to the court, the legal process and the parties involved. Until a verdict is rendered, the exposure of either are inexcusable and unfair.

RC

[GAspnes]

18. secret trials?

Surely you jest.

And while we're at it, consider Dr. Kelly in the UK, who committed suicide over the public pressure brought to bear by bringing an accusation against a powerful public figure. Now imagine you're a 19 year old girl.

I think public confidentiality for the victim is entirely appropriate. Kobe knows who his accuser is -- that's all that's required by law.

[TankLV]

20. I'm deadly serious.

Not one of you has refuted my stance on the subject. Not one.

This is getting pretty tiring.

I just hope you are never on the wrong side of a wrong accusation and have to fight for your life.

And 19 year old girls can be and ARE very devious. Just like all other scumbag older and younger men and women.

Either you are for equal treatment or not. For total equality or not.

Have a nice evening ladies. I'm off to bed to try to earn a living in bunkerboy's "wonderful" economy. Trying to shake a nagging cough.

This "discussion" is going nowhere. And since it takes 2 to have an argument, I will now

retire.

I will refocus my outrages for the criminals in OUR White House - it's a better use of time and energy.

Good evening one and all!

[JackDragna]

29. Your questions got answered..

.you just refused to acknowledge the answers. The reason there is no "equal treatment" is because the two sides aren't even close to equal in terms of the consequences of going public. Someone like Kobe Bryant has chosen a career that puts him in the public eye. His accuser's identity, if made public, could end up nearly as famous, but isn't nearly as emotionally prepared to deal with it as someone that's a major public figure and deal with it all the time.

[Democat]

57. Being accused of rape is more shameful in public than being raped

Rape victims are not seen as worse by society than those accused of being rapists.

[Wonder]

59. wrong the victim is perceived as a pariah

in her real life that is. that is why most time they won't tell anyone... or if they do... they tend to not really make a big mention of it. The general rule of the thumb is that she could have done something to prevent it. Translation: it was her fault. Rather than to deal with that subtlty the victim will tend not to reveal the incident after the fact, even while at the same time she may be plagued with PTSymptoms and require consolation.

If she bring it up people start digging for all the details, just like here, many seem to be digging for exactly what it was she did wrong. The point is it always seems to boil down to it must have been something she did. During or after, the victim is generally not credible in the eyes of those who have not had a similar experience and in the eyes of some men that don't like to have to cope with the issue. So it is trivialized in some form. Most times these same people feel that what they are providing is sympathy, what many times they are really doing is distancing themselves from the victim's reality. It is hard to explain what i am getting at.

All in All it would be easier being a homocide victim mostly only professionals really understand what exactly the victim copes with, and will be the only one that comes the closest to providing actual empathy, understanding and/or consolation. Depending on whether or not the victim was abandoned by friends after the rape in their inability to cope with the stress themselves...the victim will also deal with acute disconnection and can tend to feel ostracized as few real understand.

Rape victims are not perceived well.

not that being accused of rape is a picnic, but in general until convict the rapist in his surrounding could very be more supported than the victim depending on her surroundings. Once the verdict comes in the worse is over for the accused if acquitted (for the most part) unless there is job discrimination. Kobe may well lose his commercial spots, that will depend on how the actual trial plays out. Once the trial is over for the victim her nightmare may be just beginning. May not hit her for another 5 years plus. If she is found out be lying I think she should do some time.

I can not imagine Koby will be convicted if he is innocent. For the most part so far. The media is in full support of Kobe Bryant. The Lykis response might be more to the extreme, but most of the media is not coming across any kinder as far as the victim is concerned. He just mentions the victim in his attempt to bolster Kobe.

At least that is the way I see it. Lykus has done nothing in terms of objectivity, he speaks to the "why didn't she just lay back and enjoy it" or "she deserved it" crowd, or those guys who feel themselves victims for I am not sure what reason.

I can not in a million years believe there are guys plagued regularly by fears of being falsely accused. Not the majority of them I mean. Something about that just doesn't add up. Those that got that kind of fear that plagues them regularly, perhaps they need to check themselves, they might be pushing a bit too far across that boundary themselves and a bit too often too. I mean that boundary that would delineate consentual sex from force. The guys plagued by real fear of being falsely accused, they may just be crossing that line, but are not really sure. What they may perceive in that one crucial moment is FAIR, by their definition, might well cross over into force. I have no problem imagining that, because I must say, I have never in my life heard a guy express much fear in that department. Not the way I heard one guy express it here. Not in a million years do I believe that the majority of guys walk around with that kind of fear. Than again mostly I have come to know the good guys. Seems to me if you are not near crossing over that line being plagued by fears of being falsely accused wouldn't come up. Now if you are asking yourself what that line is. Well than I suggest you take a sober inventory of yourself, because something is definitely wrong there if you need clarification on that boundary.


Anyway it is a gender battle and it is worse than it ever was. And this is my last attempt to try and bring some balance. From what the obstinance I perceive here I am wasting my breath. These particular types I am talking about require way too much attention on their own terms and theirs only. I get they have no interest in really understanding this from both sides....poor poor kobe. Can not waste time on that kind of blindness, which is too bad it seems endemic something must be done about it...

While I have heard even girls in here chime in to vilify the victim so so fast too. I will say that the whole think is kind of fucked up because there are girls that immediately will vilify Kobe just based on the accusation. See in my mind, this is not based on ground level police precincting and an inadvertent report. This had to have gone thru all the appropraite channels, this girl had to have taken through the mill already well before the DA opted to press charges. Who knows the DA could be thinking about his career before an election. Who knows anymore about anything. Truth never seems to be the point anymore.

[private_ryan]

111. I can't in a million years believe they are women plagued by fear of rape

"I can not in a million years believe there are guys plagued regularly by fears of being falsely accused. Not the majority of them I mean. Something about that just doesn't add up. Those that got that kind of fear that plagues them regularly, perhaps they need to check themselves, they might be pushing a bit too far across that boundary themselves and a bit too often too. I mean that boundary that would delineate consentual sex from force. The guys plagued by real fear of being falsely accused, they may just be crossing that line, but are not really sure. What they may perceive in that one crucial moment is FAIR, by their definition, might well cross over into force. I have no problem imagining that, because I must say, I have never in my life heard a guy express much fear in that department. Not the way I heard one guy express it here. Not in a million years do I believe that the majority of guys walk around with that kind of fear. Than again mostly I have come to know the good guys. Seems to me if you are not near crossing over that line being plagued by fears of being falsely accused wouldn't come up. Now if you are asking yourself what that line is. Well than I suggest you take a sober inventory of yourself, because something is definitely wrong there if you need clarification on that boundary."
****************
Those women must check themselves. Maybe they're going out of the house without a male relative, wearing short skirts, drinking alone with guys, doing drugs, have pre-martial sex, smiling when guys look at them etc. I never heard a woman express much fear about rape. Than again mostly I have come to know the good girls, not the ones doing stuff that makes them look easy and ask to be raped.

still stand by what you said?

[L.A.dweller]

118. hit post twice.

n/a

[L.A.dweller]

after your idiotic statement, u bet she stands by what she said.

If a woman is wearing a short skirt, drinking with guys (like her friends or in a bar), then she must be asking for it right?
Oh yeah, she is just begging to be raped. Smiling at another man does not make a woman "look easy and ask to be raped."

Maybe that woman likes to show off her long legs and look fashinable while doing it. Maybe a woman likes to enjoy a night out in the town.
THAT DOES NOT mean she is seeking to get raped.

That idiotic thinking is so prevalent in our society. "She was just asking for it."

Give me a fucking break. No one deserves to be sexually assaulted under any circumstance.

[Wonder]

140. Thank you! You bet your ass I stand by what I said.

it seems he can't answer a simple question, or is it just me feel he is avoiding this one simple question. sheesh it's his fear. one would think he could articulate why he has it.

[Wonder]

137. YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION.

Yes I stand by what I said. I said to illustrate that I don't understand the fear.

"Those women must check themselves. Maybe they're going out of the house without a male relative, wearing short skirts, drinking alone with guys, doing drugs, have pre-martial sex, smiling when guys look at them etc. I never heard a woman express much fear about rape. Than again mostly I have come to know the good girls, not the ones doing stuff that makes them look easy and ask to be raped."

ARE YOU IN THE REAL WORLD PRIVATE RYAN...

you are saying that a woman should not smile at a man?

You have avoided a very simple question... still haven't answered it.

You are twisting my words around and feeding them back to me.

If instead you would explain to me why the fear...than perhaps I might come to understand YOUR FEAR. What it seems instead as we go on further with this is: women need to look and act a certain way. If they don't in YOUR MIND they are asking to be raped. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR FEAR. I INFER ONCE AGAIN, BUT ARE YOU AFRAID OF WOMEN?

Is JoLo asking to be raped. was Madonna asking to be raped. It seems you have not moved ahead with the times Private Ryan.

could you just please answer the question based on some real thought you have put into understanding WHY YOU HAVE FEAR OF BEING FALSELY ACCUSED? YOU MUST KNOW WHY YOU HAVE THIS FEAR IT IS YOUR FEAR AFTERALL.

And I already addressed the fear of rape issue you offered up in another one of my posts to you. you are avoiding the question.

[private_ryan]

142. this tells me a lot about you

it went right over your head.

[Wonder]

146. STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

so now I have two?

why is it you have all this FEAR of being falsely accused?

and what exactly was it that went over my head?

do you think you can just answer the questions?

Okay that's three!

[Lurking Dem]

147. Here's a clue

"Doing stuff that makes them look easy" is subjective. A girl can smile at a sick fuck and he can take that as a "she wants it". If a girl is so easy SHE WILL SAY "YES".

Assaulting someone who says "NO" is a crime. She could be walking down the middle of the street naked, it is still a crime.

Do you ask to get mugged because you went to a bar? Do you ask to get carjacked because you dive a decent car? Do you ask to get raped because you took a shortcut through your neighborhood?

No?

[RapidCreek]

188. I don't agree

Once you're in the system, you're in the system. It matters not whether your are found innocent. I know this because I worked in law enforcement. Mr. Bryant and any other person arrested and indicted on a rape charge will forever have that arrest and indictment on their record. A finding of innocence will not expunge the arrest and indictment from that record. Your record follows you where ever you go...you cannot escape it. Consider the above....if you were arrested and indicted for child rape and found innocent.

Employers who do background checks will have access to this information and regardless of a possible finding of innocence, he will certianly be discriminated against because of the niggling suspicion in the minds of those who view his record, that he may of gotten away with the crime he was accused of. How many guilty go free? Do you suggest that the guilty are convicted without fail? If you had a choice of hiring a man who was found innocent of rape or a man who was never accused of rape, which would you hire? An accuser has no such record of her accusation to contend with....whether or not it stands up in court. An accuser can move away and change her name. The thing she will truly have to deal with is the horror of the rape itself. What she shares with others about this rape is almost entirely up to her. It would appear that the woman in question has no problem sharing the details of the alledged rape with her party buddys, so I have to question the assertion that she feels she is viewed as a pariah. It is illogical to endeavor to make yourself that which you claim to fear being. If I were raped by Koby Bryant you can be assured that I wouldn't be sharing the details with anyone other than my doctor, my lawyer and certain members of my family....and I sure as hell wouldn't be doing it at parties.

I can imagine that Koby will be convicted if he is innocent. For the simple reason that this case will be comprised completely of the testimony of two individuals who were alone in a Hotel room. It will be ones word against the other. An innocent, cute, white, cheerleader from a very wealthy family, testifying against a big black buck, whose only claim to fame is his skill at bouncing an orange ball around, an uneducated man who minus the projock money would be working at McDonald's. Quite a few innocent black men have swung from trees for the same crime he has been accused of. Then again OJ got away with murder, under similar circumstances, so maybe I am wrong. I personally believe Bryant should be convicted, even if the sex was "consentual"...if for no other reason than his arogance, stupidity and infidelity. The fact remains, that minus these three indisputable qualities, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in today. Even if he is found innocent of the charges he has been indicted for, he can look forward to getting nailed for everything he owns in civil proceedings as well as the death of his commercial carreer, much the same as OJ. You fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows.

RC

[Alenne]

190. Kobe's family is not poor

His father was a professional basketball player so he would probably not be working at Mcdonald's if he hadn't played basketball.

[RapidCreek]

211. Ok....he'd be living in mom and dads basement.

The point is, the guy has no marketable skills aside from bouncing an orange ball around and throwing it through a little hoop and it's my guess coaching won't be an option.

My family isn't poor either....but I am, relatively speaking.

RC

[Alenne]

212. College?

If he had not become a basketball player college is an option. Right now his accuser has no marketable skills but you still mentioned her parents are rich.

[RapidCreek]

213. yep...she's also white

and hasn't got an arrest and indictment for rape on her record. I would hazard to guess a white girl from a wealthy family and no arrests or indictments on her record has allot more opportunity to market the skills that she will one day posses than Mr. Bryant ever will. Do you think otherwise?

In addition I shall add this. Courts have historically ruled more harshly against a black rape defendant, rich or not, when the prosecution represents a rich white girl. If you doubt my words...do a little research on the subject. You might care to start in the state of Texas and go from there.

RC

[Alenne]

215. I think minus the projock money

Kobe would not be uneducated and working at Mcdonalds. He would have gone on to college and had the same opportunities that other middle class people have.

[RapidCreek]

220. I guess you miss my point...

I'm not speaking of what could have been....I am speaking of, what is and I think that I've made that pretty clear.


RC

[Alenne]

221. Kobe makes 30 million a year

he can buy marketable skills and educate himself.

[RapidCreek]

224. So what?

RC

[Lurking Dem]

72. Say that again

after you've had a cop ask you at 2am (with blood dripping down your face), "What were you wearing?"

[jmm]

183. Oh really?

When I was about 12 I use to walk a girl a neighborhood girl to school. She was in 1st gr. One morning, to make a long story short, she asked me to keep a secret and told me about her 19 year old cousin who often babysat and repeatedly raped her. I begged her to tell her parents but she refused. Despite my promise not to tell I did. Their response, she was making it up because she hated him. Part of me wanted to scream, you idiots, maybe this is why she hates him. Her parents scolded and punished her for lying to me and he was later allowed him to baby sit her again. She later told me that it continued. I wish there was more that I could've done but I couldn't think of any way to help her other than offering to watch her myself so she wouldn‘t have to spend as much time with him. When I was about her age I was in a similar situation and even though some of my family was more sympathetic I still had people blame me, call me a liar, and nothing was ever done about it. Despite the fact that someone witnessed what happened to me my mom was almost guaranteed that the case couldn't make it to trial.

I find it hard to believe that the man her family protected felt more shame than her. I find it hard to believe I felt less shame than the person my father told listen, just don’t do it again right before he blamed me. I personally know many other people who have been in similar situations. Like a friend of mine who was raped around age 12 by her aunt’s boyfriend. She moved in with them after her mother died. When she told her aunt she was accused of seducing him and kicked out of the house. Nobody in the family wanted anything to do with her but he wasn’t treated like a pariah. Image how worse it must be for someone is raped when they are older? Nobody could accuse me of being a money grubbing woman scorned at that young age.

Maybe rape victims aren’t viewed as worse than those accused of rape but too often victims aren’t recognized as victims.

I haven‘t formed any opinion about Kobe yet. I just wish he’d get off my damn TV so real news can be dealt with. I only bothered to read this thread because the subject line caught my attention and I don’t think the names of alleged victims should be released unless they are found to be lying.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

58. You touch on one critical point here, Jack

Regardless of whether or not he committed rape, Mr. Bryant made the choice of having intercourse outside his marriage. Given the fact that he is a celebrity, how could he expect not to have any sexual infidelity come back to haunt him in an excruciatingly public manner? I'm willing to extend the presumption of innocence to him at this point as far as his alleged crime goes. But the jury is already back on whether or not he's a dumbass and the verdict ain't lookin' too good for him.

I'm also in favor of allowing victims of sex crimes to remain anonymous. If what they allege turns out to be a false claim, they still face a horrible retribution in the court of public opinion. We don't need to put obstacles in front of people who deserve justice for sex crimes committed against them.

[private_ryan]

100. what if Kobe was Tyrone Williams and worked as a gas station attendent?

equal treatment?

[salin]

154. Doubt that the radio host would be releasing her info in that case

and then we wouldn't be having this particular conversation.

[GAspnes]

33. ok, come back in the morning

I'll be glad to show you, again, why your position is illogical.

Until then, like you, I shall devote an hour or two to undercutting the criminal in the White House.

[maxanne]

60. I hope

no one you love ever gets raped. I hope they never experience the shame of "friends" asking "did you ask for it?" I hope they never experience the trauma, the fear, or the self doubt and self loathing.
I hope they never have to decide not to report it, because no one would believe them - and they'd be on trial in court.

I was gang raped at 16. I knew my rapists. I was homeless and alcoholic. They beat me, held me down, and raped me - as part of a Hells Angels initiation rite. They told me they would kill me if I told anyone.

My mother refused to listen to me. People I considered friends asked me if I asked for it. What I learned was to compartmentalize it - and bury those feelings deeply. It took years to deal with it at all. To this day I have profound trust issues that have shaped my adult relationships.

So take your sanctimonious good for the goose blather somewhere else. A million nasty male sports fans are going to make this girl's life hell and you call that justice?

I really hope it's never your mother. Your wife. Your daughter. Your grandmother. I hope you are never put into the position of having to eat your words. I hope you never have to fully understand what rape is like. Equality does not exist for women in this country in any area. When it does you may have a point. Until then - your point is meaningless.

[Wonder]

64. you seem out to lunch to me

more than one person sufficiently refuted your stance on the subject, one even corrected your spelling, you do not seem responsive to any of the very well argued points that stand in opposition to your stance. You avoided all other points and just continue don with your same point, While those in opposition to your stance responded to the one point you made over and over and over, with many different and much more relevant points than you have almost articulated. Best you move on to other threads where perhaps you articulate yourself better.

[Wonder]

49. Read your post thoroughly like you are a sage !

"We are talking about life and death issues here, don't forget."

life and death for whom? You haven't a clue!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. IF Equality were present in the number of male victims versus female

I might buy your arguments. Children are sheltered from having their identities revealed. Maybe we should have Tom announce their names. Guess what...when the number of men being raped and battered equals the number of women getting the same, then I will believe there is an issue of equality.

[Wonder]

46. bullshit -- SHE IS A WITNESS FOR THE STATE

by legal definition. she is not just the accuser. not just the alleged victim... SHE IS THE WITNESS FOR THE STATE, it is the state that is making the charge

She is not the one smearing Kobe... it is the media. Not her she is not smearing him. She reported a crime.

Wow the world is really off on an aggressive spiral to no where real pretty.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. No easy answers

This is a very complex problem.

On one hand, what he did by naming the accuser is reprehensible and violates the standard practices of all major and most minor media. This is due to the major stigma associated with victims of sexual crimes in our nation.

However, let's face it. This IS a public record case. She filed criminal charges against someone and no matter what the outcome of the trial, those charges will follow him around the rest of his life. Why is it that woman feel that this crime needs to be treated differently than all other crimes?

Frankly, until women decide they will not be controlled by this horrific crime and are willing to go public about it, many sex crimes will go unreported and remain hidden. But, since we are not yet at that point, I think what he did will harm her all the more.

[salin]

34. Not only her

(and it isn't clear whether or not she is a victim) - but many future rape victims who are witnessing the vitriol against the accuser and the public pillaging. It will be remembered and undoubtedly will be a factor in the decision to not report future incidents of rape. And so the cycle continues.

[Eloriel]

79. Exactly right -- it's a protection racket

The horror this young woman is experiencing will absolutely prevent others from coming forward. That means rapists go free -- not just free, but completely under the radar. COMPLETELY.

There's a REASON our culture makes life such hell for anyone alleging rape. It's to DISCOURAGE VICTIMS FROM NAMING THEIR RAPISTS, allowing perpetrators a completely free ride.

And a LOT of people here at DU are actively participating in it.

Eloriel

[noiretextatique]

48. question: would you really want your daughter to go public?

if you have one...particularly against a rich or powerful or famous man? do you think she'd get any different treatment by the press than any woman in a similar circumstance? this is part of the reason why some women may be hesitant to come forward and the press charges.

[Wonder]

50. "until women decide they will not be controlled by this horrific crime"

that might be easier if the incidence of the crime were too decrease and men would take a bit more responsibility, and enlighten those they encounter that are most unconscious.

Are you suggesting now that woman must bare full and complete responsibility for the crime itself?


I was raped...the whole thing came back up.. I never told my family... in the process of counceling I was encouraged to tell them.. So finally I told my mother...she could't cope with news... just left me hanging... had a family member check the record... it isn't listed under my name... I was the victim so nothing came up... so I come to find she left me hanging because nothing was found on file... so she told other families that I was just crazy and looking for attention...the crime would have only come up under the perps name not mine...

people everything you are saying while it might seem to have some rationale is death to the victim... you might as well kill her...

this is all bullshit rationale for those that are convinced this girl is lying. I am not saying she is or she isn't but if she isn't you have not a clue what you are doing to her.. and if she is lying she can always be punished for perjory once that is established... I will be the first she should do time behind bars because I myself will not be all that happy with her...

muddleoftheroad, you have not a real clue however logical it may sound to you, what you are saying...

exposing the victim is not the way nip the crime of rape in the bud...
getting more to the root cause of the anger that justifies in the males mind his god given privilege to rape a woman is a better way to go.

Really taking an objective look at some of the comments made by more than one male within all of these threads would be a simple but good start... exposing the alleged victim to more insult and humiliation while it might seem a FAIR idea, is actually the most ignorant IDEA I have yet come across. She too must be innocent til proven guilty. The only reason this is so public is because Kobe is a celebrity.

In many ways on all topics in the world it is like we are walking backward.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. You misunderstand

Rape is horrible. If I had my way, we would execute the bastards who do it.

But part of the horror of rape is that women in general allow men to get away with it out of fear, out of shame, out of hurt.

So unless women (not just a few, but thousands and thousands) stand up and admit to this happening, then it will continue to go hidden in our society. When men realize it isn't just one 19-year-old girl, but it's their wives, their mothers, their sisters, then maybe this will begin to stop.

I feel horrible for what happened to you like it has happened to millions before you. But one reason it continues to happen is that the bastards who do it get away with it. The only way to stop that is to stand up and say, "No more."

That does not ignore the blame that men have for doing this horrific act, but when you shed light on such behavior, it makes it harder to hide.

For the record, remember I said he should NOT name the girl.

[Wonder]

52. "until women decide they will not be controlled"

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT RAPE IS A THEFT AND WHAT IS STOLEN FROM THE GIRL OR THE WOMAN IS NOT ONLY HER SENSE OF CONTROL BUT HER SENSE OF HER OWN POWER -- GONE.

IN ORDER TO GET THROUGH IT THE GIRL OR WOMAN MOST PROBABLY GOES OUT OF BODY. SHE IS NOT REALLY THERE especially in cases when excessive force is used.

SHE EVACUATES HER BODY SO COMPLETELY. It can take years for her to restore that sense for her self. why years? Because unlike open heart surgery councelors can only deal with what what the girl can cope with herself.

Education on Rape from its criminal aspects to its detriments should be a manditory credited course. Both genders should attend. And if it is just simply that men just do not want to hear about. In school manditary martial art for all woman manditory...

To get a handle on the intense fear that came back I took taekwondo.. A+ on kicking technique. I have since abandoned it after my yellow belt, but I have been meaning to take kickboxing at the gym... I found I wanted to know I could kill if I had to. Not that I would but that I could if I had to. I am not sure I can yet, but I sus up situations very differently now. I know the various points... I hope that level of rage will never be tested...it goes completely against my sense of feminity...

In the face of what I hear on these threads... I am quite profoundly disgusted.

[Mushroom]

26. Pack Mentality

Vindictive fool. He should be taken off the air for intent to cause harm. This is criminal.

[private_ryan]

30. intent to cause harm?

is this still the USA? he has every right to say what her name is, it's not illegal at all (without even getting into if it's moral or not)

[salin]

35. yep and he should take NO responsibility

along with his rights, and when his behavior incites some kind of action against this girl by his repeated divulging of information and doing it in a snide hostile way (which the act itself indicates).

What ever made us such a fricking sick society that seems to more and more frequently devolve the term "responsibility" from the word "rights"?

Ah - but its never too late to empathize more with the plight of the accused than the plight of the accuser. Because his situation could suck so bad and hers... aw forget about it.

Reading these threads - taking the guilt out of the question but just looking at who folks empathize vs who folks vilify - one would come to believe that either rape is a victimless crime OR that rape is a crime in which the rapist is the victim of the accuser.

How screwed up is that?

on edit - slight cleaning up of language - just so irritated by this whole topic and how it gets treated by many in the public.

[noiretextatique]

37. no post

dbl posted...sorry

[noiretextatique]

38. bryant is seen as a victim

by this disc jockey, and others....he very well may be...something a trial should determine. and certainly, this charge will damage his reputation...and his ability to get endorsements.

as someone mentioned in another thread, some people don't seem to grasp that rape causes real trauma....to the victim. especially in cases like this where SHE is being tried by the media...the alleged victim in this case.

it's as sickening in a rape case as it is in a murder case. remember the "yuppie" murderer...robert chambers? remember how his defense claimed the woman he murdered "assaulted" him and "forced" him to have sex? unfortunately, jennifer levin wasn't alive to defend herself.

[Wonder]

65. Yes that is the way it seems to me to...

If you just landed on the planet year from these thread that is what you get rape is a victimless crime and the rapist is the victim of the accuser. You summed that up very well.

[private_ryan]

89. why did the prosecutor /state named Kobe Bryant then?

what if her parents, brother, cousin, xxxxx kill him?
Oh, I'm sorry. Kobe is not the woman in this case. What if the charges are false? Hasn't Kobe been victimized by the media, people while techincally he's 100% innocent until proven guilty?

Why should the woman be protected so she doesn't "get victimized" a second time (if she was victimized the first time) and the man's name gets printed with the word rape next to it???????????

You women want equal rights? Here they are........

[Dhalgren]

96. When the State brings charges against someone

it has to name that person. All prosecution must be public - not the identiies of the victims of the alledged crime.

[private_ryan]

103. I think you forgot to read the comment I was replying too

n/t

[Wonder]

98. you got a lot of anger going there

that is a very typical statement "You women" want equal right... Here they are... Sounds more like a punishment when you say it that way.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. When men get raped as often as women you can argue that

What the state owes Kobe is a fair trial. Witnesses are protected often for various reasons, not just ALLEGED rape victims..... or maybe we should have given the Mafia the news faces, names and addresses for their accusers..

[salin]

152. Your odd interpretation of the criminal process (which is not just

about rape, nor about females) just makes me have to repeat my generalized rant from the post:

Ah - but its never too late to empathize more with the plight of the accused than the plight of the accuser. Because his situation could suck so bad and hers... aw forget about it.

Reading these threads - taking the guilt out of the question but just looking at who folks empathize vs who folks vilify - one would come to believe that either rape is a victimless crime OR that rape is a crime in which the rapist is the victim of the accuser.

I have no idea if Kobe Bryant is guilty. I have no idea if this woman is lying or not. I do find it very, very interesting when people identify with the accused and presume victimization - and turn to vilification of the alleged victim with no comprehension or concern that if this woman is a victim that the media circus is even more awful for her than for the accused (due to the blind fan vitriol).

I have said many places, on this thread and others, that false accusations are awful. Indeed they are a tragedy. But I have not seen, in the most ardent "it is more likely that HE is the victim" sentiments an iota of recognition of the horrendous ordeal that she - if she is a victim had to go through during the rape and is having to go through during this circus.

By the way - not clear in an earlier statement. You say that the "stigma" attached to a falsley accused rapist is worse than the stigma attached to a rape victim (and I would disagree, but we can agree to disagree on this point - both are AWFUL!).

My question: Would you also say that the life-time aftermath (beyond stigmatization) is worse for the falsely accused than for the rape victim?

I could be completely misreading you - but this seems to be the tone that the two are either equatable, or indeed it is worse for the male.

[Wonder]

45. You are another one of the male authorities on this subject

never answered my question?

I will pose it again you made an assertion that women falsely accuse ALL THE TIME were your exact words. Have you been falsely accused of rape on more than one occasion. What are you basing your assertion on?

[private_ryan]

86. I said ALL THE TIME??????

I doubt I did but if I did I didn't mean mean it. Someone said that no women does this for money and I said it's not true...

On edit: I re-read my post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=28421&mesg_id=28421&page=#29226
and you know exactly what I meant. Nice try to spin it...

[Wonder]

90. here is what you said exactly

"false accustions happen all the time, just as rape happens all the time. You're a woman and fear being raped /and not getting justice and I'm a man who fears being falsely accused of rape becuase it happens a lot. Once a man is accused he's automatically guilty..."

first you said all the time and then you said alot.

funny though you still haven't answered my question. I'm trying to understand why the great fear. I am not spinning anything. those were your words. You have this fear why? have you been accused falsely before? and if so how many times. I am unclear what you are basing your assertions on is all.

I am trying to understand this fear of being falsely accused. I have never run across it before.

[private_ryan]

92. Ok

if I meant (like you're implying) that 100% of the accusations are false, what did I mean with "just as rape happens all the time". You didn't read that far did you?


"I am trying to understand this fear of being falsely accused. I have never run across it before"

never been accused so I should keep my mouth shut, right? The funny part is that I've never run accros the fear of being raped.

[Wonder]

107. you are putting words in everyone's mouth

I asked a question because I didn't know the answer.

you either are raped and then carry with you fear or you have not been raped and hopefully proceed with caution.

in most cases in the girls I know and many younger than I, no they don't express fear of rape. I myself never had fear of being raped, before having been raped. In fact I had little fear at all.

I have never heard girls or woman expressing fear of being raped in the way you seem to be so fearful of being falsely accused. That is your black and white misinterpretation of what I or others have said.

I must say since you have never been falsely accused, I am still having trouble understanding your fear in particular. And it does seem you carry around much fear about. Because it is the one and only point you keep making with little give to all the various facets that exist on this topic. I really do not understand why you have such enormous fear about that to go as far as to even INSIST beyond all doubt that it is MORE OF A STIGMA than rape itself, especially since you have never been falsely accused.

I still have no idea what you are basing your assertion on????

[private_ryan]

116. I didn't words in anyone's mouth and .....

as far as the fear of being accused it's my fault: I push "a bit too far across that boundary themselves and a bit too often too".

[Wonder]

124. you had the an opportunity to answer the question.

I am trying to figure out where your fear is coming from you seem to be doing everything but answering the question. You finally answered the part of the question as you said No you have NEVER been falsely accused.

I then asked if YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN FALSELY ACCUSED why THEN do you have what seems to be alot of fear about being falsely accused. I am trying to establish where this fear is coming from. Because your assertion that state false accusation happens a lot does not seem to based in your own personal experience of having been falsely accused YET you still say you have a great deal of fear about.

I see what you mean mine was leading. So let me rephrase the question.

You have NEVER BEEN falsely accused. Than what is the basis of all this fear you have? I am not suggesting you are unjustified to have it. I just don't understand where it is coming from.

Fear just doesn't come from no where it is generally grounded in something firm. You are making assertions that seem to stem ONLY FROM YOUR FEAR. I am trying to understand WHY YOU HAVE THIS FEAR.

[private_ryan]

131. here's the answer

why do women fear of being raped? (I know you said you have no fear but you can't deny that the fear is out there.)

once you got the answer replace "women" with "men" and add "falsely accused of" in front of the word "rape". Hope it helps.

Sorry I can't help you as much as you wish in creating my profile, I just have a few things to do this afternoon.

[Wonder]

156. that is not an answer...

the two are catagorically different.

I womans fear of rape as I already addressed it. Generally manifests after a rape, not before. All you have communicated is you seem to have much discomfort about the modern woman. One can infer you may not even like women very much. Sorry to infer, but you have left me with no other option but to infer as YOU STILL HAVEN'T REALLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

[Mushroom]

61. Of course intent to cause harm

Oh, it's still the USA where a man named Tom Leykis can exercise his right to do his part in revealing an alleged rape victim's identity over the airwaves, aware that he would put her and her family in harm's way just for spite. No, I guess we can't call it criminal, legally speaking. We can't even call it aiding and abetting because the alleged victim is just that -- an alleged victim. What a country!

Anyway, in his noble quest for fairness, Leykis could be hurting Kobe's defense by furthering his victimization of her on a grand scale.

[private_ryan]

93. I see

"We can't even call it aiding and abetting because the alleged victim is just that -- an alleged victim. What a country!"

maybe we should jail Kobe because she said so...screw the trial, evidence, defense, rights etc...

hey officer, he raped me. Life sentence on the spot.

[Wonder]

115. once this goes to trial he may well be remanded

with bail set very high. Probably the state will take the opportunity to make some money. I can not imagine he will be a flight risk. They might have already booked him for the crime. That goes with the charges once felony charges are made the he is no longer an alleged suspect. He has been charged.

you are not listening to those that have had actual experience with this it is not that easy. it is not hey officer, he raped me and on her word only they run out and pick him up. She is interrogated more than once by more than one department at which time it is decided whether there is enough evidence to take it to the DA the DA decides gives the order to pick him up. Have you read any of the others posts on this. Those with actual experience with the system on a charge or accusation of this nature. DA'S WILL NOT GENERAL EVEN TAKE THE CASE IF THEY DO NOT FEEL THEY CAN WIN IT. MY DA ON MY CASE MADE THAT CLEAR MANY MORE TIMES THAN ONCE. The take the rights of the accused almost more seriously than the victim's because if they feel they have a rapists they do not want to risk losing on any technicalities, especially if they profile him as one who will be a further menace to society.

There is a very methodical process involved here. Girls do not decide if their rapists gets picked up. precinct officers do not make that call either. the sex crime detective does not make that call either it is the DA and all this time goes by before the reports are filed with the DA. You are not in the real world with this at all. Especially with the process. You are in your head with imagined and hypothetical scenarios which do not so far appear to be based in anything but your own mind.

[Mushroom]

214. eh?

"maybe we should jail Kobe because she said so...screw the trial, evidence, defense, rights etc...

hey officer, he raped me. Life sentence on the spot."

Maybe you should care what the many convicted rapists are doing to your gender's reputation. I remember listening to a radio program years ago, don't remember call letters or the host's name, but he said that when a man sees his enemy, he might see a man of a different religion, color, or sexual orientation -- the list goes on. But when a woman sees an enemy, she sees all men in every walk of life.

Are you willing to accept this blight on your gender?

This level of complacency is tragic and not for the common good.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Some statistics on these gold digging women

Data from the National Women's Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.

Using Uniform Crime Report data for 1994 and 1995, the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that of rape victims who reported the offense to law enforcement, about 40% were under the age of 18, and 15% were younger than 12.

In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.

Non-genital physical injuries occur in approximately 40% of completed rape cases.18 As many as 3% of all rape cases have non-genital injuries requiring overnight hospitalization.

Estimates of the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%. HIV transmission risk rate from rape is estimated at 1 in 500, although a few probable cases have been documented in Sweden and Great Britain.



The remaining facts were gathered from a variety of sources, noted per each citation.



2/3 of all rapes and rape attempts occur at night with the largest proportion occurring between 6 p.m. and midnight. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1991)

Almost half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1991)

1 in 4 women college students was found to be a victim of rape or attempted rape in a national study involving 32 college campuses (Koss, 1988).

In Virginia, 77% of rape victims last year knew their attacker (Virginians Aligned Against Sexual Assault, 1990).

55% of women involved in date rape had been drinking or using drugs. (Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault, 1993.)

In approximately half of all female rapes the victim knew the offender. Strangers used some type of weapon in 29% of offenses, compared to 17% by non-stranger rapists.(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Nov.1993)

In a UCLA study, 35% of college-age men said that they would violently rape if they knew that they could get away with it (Malamuth and Donerstein).

25% of the women who reported the rape did not report until over 24 hours after the rape occurred.

The rate of sexual assault in the United States is the highest of any industrialized nation in the world. (Reiso and Roth, 1993)

Victims of rape are three times more likely than non-victims to experience a major depression. The attempted rate of suicide is 13 times higher than that of non-victims. (Rape in America, National Victim Center, 1992)

The average rape or attempted rape costs $5,100 in tangible, out-of-pocket expenses. Medical and mental health care to victims represents the bulk of these expenses. However, if rape's effect on the victim's quality of life is quantified, the average rape costs $87,000 annually. (Victim Costs and Consequences, National Institute of Justice, 1996)

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~stealinghome/facts.htm

[Wonder]

51. Tell me something NSMA ...

is the depth of the insensitivity getting worse as yet another article is posted on this... or is it just my imagination?

[Wonder]

67. 35% of college-age men said that they would violently rape

"In a UCLA study, 35% of college-age men said that they would violently rape if they knew that they could get away with it (Malamuth and Donerstein)."

that is some interesting statistic they would violently rape. How did it come about that they admitted this. See this is that deep unconscious rage some men harbor 35% out of how many polled?

On top of that rage we have a society now that harbor violent sex fantasy. It seems it's a trend. Well at this stage of the game, NSMA, that is just more informatoin than I needed. Doesn't console me in the least and quite frankly the statistics are wasted on those (and you know who they are because they are obvious to me) that pop up with there fears of being falsely accused and their caustic vitriol for that lying bitch.

okeydockey... I think all in and It may be best I stay out of these threads. I feel they might at this point be doing me more harm than good.

[Wonder]

43. rape is never sex --- tom leykis!

Tom Leykis is a real big help. I though you wanted to leave it be Paragon till the trial and you dredge up Tom Leykis.

[Lars39]

62. These *outers* have got sh*t for brains.

[alcuno]

76. "..rape is violence, not sex, and if that's true..."

"If?" What does he mean "if?" When is rape NOT violence?

[salin]

78. Only when

You (rapist) think you want sex, and she declines, but you still want it, and you delude yourself into believing that she does too, and you "make it happen"... to some sick puppies this isn't about power or force or violence it is about male lust driven too far to stop itself. But that is a uniquely male vantage point (in no way meaning that most males believe this - but I rarely see any women reflecting this view). See when one does not want sex... regardless of the context (were they fooling around a bit before hand or not)... the moment the act is forced - often by pinning the woman's body down, restraining her wrists or otherwise - it becomes violent. Once the male anatomy is thrust - against her will - not at the surface of her body (as would be a punch or assault) but INSIDE of her body - it becomes brutally violent - especially due to the repeated nature of the thrusting (most don't finish their business after one - "hit" using the punching analogy).

There is no way to view this as anything but violent.

I think it is fear (as in "have I or could I cross that line") and empathy for the person who has - but who is not viewed as a generally violent person that pushes some men to view the crime as sometimes just about sex and therefor not violent in some cases.

[Wonder]

182. When is rape NOT violence?

is this a trick question?

[slackmaster]

81. A criminal indictment and trial is a matter of public record

"Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."

The identity of the accuser has to become available to the public sooner or later.

[Dhalgren]

85. But it isn't required to be made public.

Only the accused is required to know the identity of the accuser. All this bullshit about fair play is just that - bullshit! There is no need - in fairness or other wise - for this victim's name to be made public. Period.

[slackmaster]

88. I don't buy your argument

The real name of the accuser will sooner or later end up in court documents that are and MUST be available to the public. Secret trials are anathema to our system of justice.

There is no need for the person's name to be broadcast over the radio, but there is no justification for keeping it secret.

On edit: Perhaps a person's perspective changes when the tables are turned. I have personally had a Kafkaesque experience in the criminal justice system. During a routine traffic stop many years ago, the cops were alerted to a warrant for my arrest that I was not aware of. It was for failure to appear at a felony arraignment in another county. I spent a night in jail and sought a criminal defense attorney immediately. It took six full weeks before the truth was revealed - Someone had stolen my identity and used it to commit fraudulent purchases with credit cards; grand theft. Six weeks of torment not knowing who had accused me of what crime or where. It cost me about $3,000 in legal fees getting the criminal stuff and my credit straightened out, and I almost lost my job.

I know that Kobe Bryant knows his accuser's name, but the idea of secret proceedings and government information being withheld from the public turns my stomach.

[Dhalgren]

106. I did not say that the victim's name would not become public

knowledge. I said that the identity of the victim was not required to be made public. The identity of the person charged with the crime must be made public - otherwise, secret trials.

There are instances where the identity of a state witness is kept secret for the protection of the witness, but I am not saying that this young woman should be given "witness protection", all I am saying is that it is not necessary that anyone other than Mr. Bryant know the identity of the victim. Justice is in no way advanced by making victim identities public. This is a legal issue not a Jerry Springer show topic.

[slackmaster]

145. Unfortunately when a celebrity is accused of a crime

The whole matter becomes a Jerry Springer topic.

The courts will sort out the truth. They usually do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Apparently the girl has gotten death threats over this

So I assume if she withdraws the charges or refuses to testify now that her life is in danger, everyone here will say she should have had the fortitude to continue if the charges were true.

[Wonder]

91. are these death threats being publicized now too

very encouraging stuff for those women in the future coming forward.

[private_ryan]

105. what if Kobe got death threats?

what if I decide to sue Rim Job and freepers threaten my life?

[Wonder]

109. what IF?????? what if the moon turned green and fell onto the earth?

so far it seems he hasn't gotten any? It is my understanding she has. what if? Why go hypothetical when at this moment the FACT IS SHE HAS GOTTEN DEATH THREATS. What does that mean to you anything? Does that raise any thoughtful considerations in your mind at all?

Why go right away to a hypothetical? Why ponder what IF kobe. When one might consider THE FACT that the alleged victim has received death threats? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[private_ryan]

113. says who?

I thought we weren't suppose to believe the media on the thread that reported that she "bragged" about the situation and described Kobe's package at a party?

What if Kobe is not revealing them like this girl is?

[Wonder]

149. It seems between this fear of yours that you still seem to have trouble

ARTICULATING and the fact that YOU ARE BEING LED completely by statements in the media, what if Kobe is not revealing what like this girl?

And you say things are going over my head. Four simple questions.

Why do you have this fear about being falsely accused

What is it that you feel went over my head?

Can you just answer the questions?

what if Kobe is not revealing what like this girl?

This is some bit of manuvering you got going her Private Ryan, sir. Because it really does seem you either don't understand the questions or don't know how to answer them.

If you would just answer ESPECIALLY the first one, perhaps we might have a better go of understanding each other.

[private_ryan]

194. I actually answered all these "questions"

most of them you haven't gotten them or choose not to.

buh, bye, bye

[Wonder]

202. no I do not believe you have

If your inversion of my words was meant to be your answer, I have not choosen not to understand it I just do not understand it. I still do not understand YOUR PERSONAL FEAR of being falsely accused.



Could you explain it in your own words in an effort to help me understand? You do you wish not to be understood and just want to continuing talking about your fear which seems to not be based in any viable personal experience of your own. But that perhaps you are maybe attracted to those very same women you seem not to like very much.

There I go guessing again. Really I didn't understand your explanation. Oh well.

[Wonder]

153. and BTW

that whole bragging about the package routine... It is hearsay. It is not what she said or why she said it, it is merely a third person's account of what he observed. To really become FACTUAL she would have to be asked if she said it and what she was feeling at the time when she said. IF it even bears any relevance on the case at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Why do you insist on taking it out of context?

I already know your very strict definition of rape. It is something akin to: she was walking down the street wearing a chastity belt and a man jumped out of the bushes, cut her chastity belt with the jaws of life and proceeded to have his way with her. If it falls outside that strict definition, it isn't rape.

You've already made it clear that anything else is "he said, she said", her trying to sully his virginal reputation, her trying to get back at him for not servicing her, her trying to get a few bucks.

You've already made it clear the NO isn't sufficient to meet the threshhold even though the courts disagree with you.

Once she engages in a kiss or a bit of petting, she is signing a contract to see it through to the finish.

In fact, you argue so vituperously against any other definition, one wonders what is driving this...

Tell me Private Ryan, does a woman on a date with you stand a chance if she changes her mind?

[private_ryan]

119. you seem to know all you need to know then

don't want to debate you since you have a habit of hitting the "Alert" button when you can't take it anymore...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

120. Unless you can demonstrate that that is so, you might wish to stick to

the issue. BTW, I haven't actually observed that you debate with things like facts.

[private_ryan]

121. "I haven't actually observed that you debate with things like facts"

it's all on the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Nothing I can say will convince you and I will not try. Have a wonderful day.

[Randi_Listener]

122. Topless

Plus there are now topless photos of the alleged victim floating around.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

132. Photoshop anyone?

[Muddleoftheroad]

151. Who cares?

Posing topless doesn't mean you can't be raped.

[Randi_Listener]

155. Huh?

Who suggested that?

[Wonder]

159. Posing topless doesn't mean you can't be raped.

It also does not mean you are asking to be raped. If people would just take a moment even to ponder topless dancer and strippers, it is common knowledge that many were incested as children. The exhibition is many times a symptom of the damage caused by the incest.

on the run way may be the only place the can express their sexuality safely while at the same time remain in control of it's expression.

as another thing robbed from a woman (until she addresses the damage or understands the damage done her) is her ability to express her self own sexuality has been undermined significantly... Studies show after a sexual assault the victim can go either way. either she can be unnaturally promiscous or shut down entirely till she comes to understand how to free herself and own her sexuality again.

It is very abstract, usually those more compassionate and/or empathetic, will eventually come to understand it in psychological terms.

A high percent of that fantasy we call the stripper is really a very broken girl. A percent of them do end up in therapy to unravel for themselves the damage done them and how it actually manifested in behavior that sometimes can do more damage than good. However pleasing she may be to the eye.

[Randi_Listener]

166. Rape?

In no way did I mean to suggest that posing topless or stripping or even prostitution is a license to be raped.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

169. So what did you mean?

[Randi_Listener]

170. I meant....

....that along with her name being splashed all over the airwaves, her topless picture is also available.

[Wonder]

171. and if I might pose another question

"that along with her name being splashed all over the airwaves, her topless picture is also available."

what does that suggest to you in particular. not society. you in particular.

[Randi_Listener]

172. It tells me....

....that society likes to play out it's court cases in public before the actual trial. It also tells me that the public will go to any length to trash a rape accuser when the alleged criminal is famous and well liked.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

176. Thanks for clarifying

I kinda thought that the first time around but wasn't sure :thumbsup:

[Wonder]

205. well for what it is worth

I agree with NSMA you are not working with facts you are in your head someplace projecting a your reality onto the world, making baseless assertion and have chose not to support them with sources or fact.

But yes you have a wonderful day as well. I would smile at you as well, but as you stated that might give you the wrong impression.

[private_ryan]

207. you and her keep praising each other....

if that works wonders for you.

[Lurking Dem]

208. Care to answer my questions?

Trying very hard to see where you're coming from.

[Randi_Listener]

114. Tell Tom Leykis yourself

http://www.blowmeuptom.com

Here's his website with all the info on the alleged rape victim.

[Randi_Listener]

193. Link

There's also a link to the alleged victim's home address. WTF?

[nini]

127. let it play out in court

At this point both sides are entitled to a fair trial and with all the f'ing big mouths out there trying the case with their comments.. it's gonna make it hard for justice to prevail.


That is ultimately the bottom line and I don't see these people who are trying to get their 15 minutes of fame (on either side) giving a damn about that.

urgh

[imix]

157. Women are no angels

Women can be just as ruthless and backstabbing as as any man and usually are. No one deserves special treamtment just because they're a woman IMO.

I don't understand why people tend to hold women up on a pedestal. Maybe watching too much Disney cartoons like Snow White as a kid has molded they're naive perception of the opposite sex. But in reality, women are not like Snow White or Mother Theresa (maybe some are, but MOST definitely are not).

[Wonder]

161. what and men are ALL archangel's

"people tend to hold women on a pedastal? women are not like snow white."

OKAY THAT ENDS ANOTHER GO ROUND AT THE OK CORRAL.

[Rich Hunt]

163. the pedestal

That pedestal was a patriarchal invention. You'll have to take it up with the Victorians if you don't like it.

[salin]

164. are you suggesting that

false accusals of rape occur as frequency as rape? We have been hearing that implication a few times on these threads. Really interesting (and completely unfounded) assertion, by the way.

[Dookus]

181. Salin....

I've been following this thread closely.

Can you show me where somebody asserted that false accusations of rape are as common as actual incidents?

This has been very very frustrating for me. The whole thing began when it was asserted that Kobe has a 98% chance of being guilty due to some unsourced statistic cited.

I, along with others, have provided links showing the incidence of false accusations to be higher than 2%. Further, some have suggested that the percentage may be higher when the accused is rich and/or famous.

Because I challenged a statistic, I was accused of denying that rape exists, or somehow being insensitive to the horror of rape.

I assure I am not.

[Rich Hunt]

184. you're wrong

I criticized you for being careless.

1) You say that you "provided links". You provided exactly two - to the same anti-feminist site.

If you were reading the link you posted, you would see that the author asserted that half of all women who say they were raped are lying.

What bugs me is that your links don't "show" anything and they are not "facts" - they are interpretations of studies not available online.

Please stop being so defensive. No one accused you of anything. But this debate is not about you, which is getting annoying.

[Dookus]

185. I wasn't referencing you....

stop in at the shop for an ego check. As I said above, I'm done discussing the topic with you because you insist on holding me to higher standards than you hold yourself.

Now you can write a snarky reply to this, and I'll let you have the last word.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

192. But you haven't provided evidence of those links being true

nor have you responded to any of my posts rebutting your links.

Links aren't facts. There are links that will argue the world is flat. That does NOT make those links supportable. YOU DID provide a link that claims the incidence of false reports is as high as 41% which is only 9% short of being as COMMON as actual rape. Therefore, Salin's point is valid that some are claiming as much.

I already believe the post that stated KOBE has a 98% chance of being guilty is invalid reasoning. This because even if the statistic of 2% is accurate, that statistic goes to the class of crime called RAPE not to the individual accused of rape.

What IS insensitive in the matter is to take bogus statistics on either side and use them as a measure of an individual case since each individual case can fall within ANY category of statistical analysis. That is why I have both backed up the claim of 2% above with more recent data and with the reasoning for the statistic and reasoning for the disparity. Something NO ONE has done who believes they are posting the truth with that 41% statistic.

That said, you have posted a lie that was rebutted and continue to pretend you have posted a fact simply because if one googles it one can find the lie repeated many times over.
In that regard, I don't charge you with insensitivity but with intellectual dishonesty that has been used to justify insensitivity.

[Dookus]

195. I never...

asserted the 41% was true. I, and others, have cited OTHER sources that put the number well below that. My ONLY assertion is that the 2% claim is wrong, and nobody has yet provided evidence to discount that.

Look.... people seem to be assigning some nefarious motive for my posting here. I assure you I have none.

But since we both agree that the 98% chance that Kobe is guilty is faulty reasoning, we agree on the only issue I tried to refute.

[Rich Hunt]

198. I don't understand why it was posted...

It wasn't offered as a "finding" open to debate, it was offered as a refutation, with no critical evaluation accompanying it.

That's what bothered me. If the 2% is open to evaluation, then so is the 41%.

People in this thread need to understand that, unfairly, this is not a "marginal" issue in many people's lives - it is central. That's why many of us have knowledge that goes beyond mere googling. It's the casualness with which "information" is tossed into the discussion that really grates on my nerves.

:grr:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

201. I know. especially with the way it is used to skew public interest

and therfore, policy. If 41% of auto theft claims were alleged to be false, public funds would be spent creating a special DA task force to deal with and clarify it. Not so on issues concerning violence against women.

[salin]

204. I was careful to say "inferred"

on one of two threads - false accusals were purported to happen all the time...

I was bothered by the misuse of statistics as well - even if the number was 2% that does not mean that in each case it is that percent likely to be the case.

It is legitimate to challenge the use of that (and other statistics).

Just as I believe it is useful to challenge those who even imply that women are as "bad as men" (the implication in this particular sub-thread - and in this context that would imply women lie as much as men rape), or that the incidence of false accusals is anywhere near as common as rape (that charge, in fairness, may have appeared in the other thread about the girl purported bragging about the incident at a party.)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

165. So what? What does that have to do with divulging the identity of an

alleged victim/witness? Is SHE the one on trial? Did I wake up this morning in the 1950's?

It is NOT special treatment to keep the identity of an alleged rape victim private any more than it is special treatment to keep the identity of a minor who is the alleged victim private.

Will all you people be happy when alleged rape victims have neon signs over their house saying "hey guys! easy mark here!"

Protecting WITNESS identities IS NOT solely unique to the crime of rape.

[Wonder]

173. nothing NSMA

it has nothing to do with the issue of divulging her identity, but to those programmed against her in every instance believe this alleged victim is just damned and anything is fair game. Those programmed who also are not even responding to the many points posed to them, take it to ALL accuser (they do not see the victim aspect at all) and then they go a step further and then apply it to all women

This is the crux of the matter for me. The smear, I certainly see it for what it is and it has no bearing on guilt or innocent, what she asked for or what she deserved. No bearing whatsoever to either his or her innocence or guilt.

divulging her identity does not fall under the catagory of "fair is fair" it was an infringement of her rights and consequently her safety. And if it was good to do the police themselves would put her picture on their board in the precinct as "ALLEGED RAPE VICTIM SUSPECTED OF FALSELY ACCUSING INNOCENT MAN" including all stats name, address, etc.

Because afterall THAT WOMAN is the REAL MENACE TO SOCIETY. As such the police would only be doing their duty to protect and serve warning all the men out there to be on the alert for another alleged victim as she most assuredly poses a great threat to the welfare of all men in our society.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

177. More and more I believe the reason she is being treated this way is to

intimidate her out of testifying.

[Wonder]

180. well it just might work

n/t

[RapidCreek]

203. Got a question for you....

If my 18 year old son accuses you of fondling his genitalia would it be alright with you if I let FAUX news in on it?

Would it also be ok with you if my traumatized son went to a party a few days later and told all his friends about what he asserts you did, then complains about the media broadcasting his name?

I grant you, it is not special treatment to keep the identity of alleged victims private....in so far as they keep it private themselves. When they cross that line however, I don't care to hear them whining about their rights being violated.

Bryant is a lascivious, disrespectful, moron....so is the fucker who broadcast the name of the victim.....Then again, she ain't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer herslef, now is she?

You might care to pick your battles a little more selectively. I think the person you are attempting to speak out for has invalidated your obviously heartfelt points by her own demonstrable lack of concern for privacy. I would agree with your assertions concerning privacy....if the alleged victim you seek to defend did as well. Her actions, however, dictate otherwise.

RC

[noiretextatique]

216. her real crime, it appears, was pursuing the charge

unless of course you believe everything her friends are saying about her....they are getting paid, i hear. i'll wait until they are called as witness, under oath before i judged their versions as valid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

219. You mean her actions as reported by people who were offered money for

their stories?

as far as your hypothetical question goes, rape is actually MORE traumatic for men than women. I support equal treatment in that regard unequivically.

[maxanne]

199. pedestal?

Special treatment?

<snorts with laughter>

Women are just overburdened with special treatment. Look at how much property and money we hold, how much power. The special treatment we get most often is relayed with fists and penises.

[RapidCreek]

217. An interesting and rather telling point.

Sorry Maxanne if the special treatment you get is most often relayed with fists and penises you might want to reconsider your definition of a man.

You bring to mind the days when my sociopath, asshole, ex-roommates' gorgeous model girlfriends would come to me, sweet ole' Andrew, cry on my shoulder, and seek my council after suffering his abuse. As a man I always loved hearing from them that "men are dogs" or "men are such assholes". Funny thing is, is that they didn't consider men like myself to be manly and would never give a moments thought to dating the sort of fellow who would lend them emotional support. I allowed this ignorance to recur several times, out of pity for the souls who uttered it. After a few repeat performances, from the same women, with the same complaints, about the latest pretty boy idiots they were dating, I'd had enough. My standard replies from then on were "No, men aren't dogs...you just like sex with animals" or "No men aren't such assholes, maybe you should try dating one at some point in your life". Don't blame men for your shitty taste...that's your problem. Deal with it.

<Shakes his head in Pity>

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek

[maxanne]

222. Rapid Creek

2 things:

1. Read the post I was responding to.

2. Point out where it was I said this was my life experience. Maybe you should stick to the topic at hand and not make a bunch of assumptions about my private life. You would be quite offended if I chose to respond in kind.

Peace and inner harmony seems a humorous thought coming from someone with a nasty, vindictive, and misogynist message.

[RapidCreek]

223. OK

I read the post you responded to...what's your point? The poster stated "No one deserves special treatment just because they're a woman IMO" and you responded with "The special treatment we get most often is relayed with fists and penises". The word We is a pronoun, plural in construction and is defined as:

1 : I and the rest of a group that includes me : you and I : you and I and another or others : I and another or others not including you -- used as pronoun of the first person plural; compare

As such you made a remark about your private life...I simply responded to the self inclusive, rather oblique and offensive assertion you made. If you don't care to be challenged in your attempts to re-frame a posters position and argue against something which was never stated, then refrain from such generalized, sanctimonious and accusatory retorts.

Since you suggest my response exhibited a misogynist nature, please feel free to elaborate on what words exactly, belied a hatred of women. One is not a misogynist because one logically responds to your woe is me, ill-founded, blanket attacks. As to nastiness and vindictiveness, I simply mirrored that which you put forth.

I seek to live in peace and strive to achieve inner harmony. I wish the same for my fellow human beings. This does not however mean, that I shall meekly entertain generalized, poorly founded, self pitying machinations aimed at my sex, which by the way, degrade your own. To do so gives me no peace and yields no inner harmony. I am more than happy to be a sensitive human being when I am addressed with sensitity..I like the poster to whom you responded feel no compunction however, to give you the special treatment your response indicates your feminine sensibilities warrant. If you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows. It's just that simple.

Peace and Inner Harmony,

Rapid Creek

[Randi_Listener]

209. At it again...

Leykis is back to revealing the name of Kobe's accuser. Type into a Google search, "Kobe accuser" and you will get the name you need.