Pentagon May Drop Mental Health Question

[Purveyor]

Source: Associated Press

U.S. troops would no longer be asked to reveal previous mental health treatment when applying for security clearances under a proposal being considered by the Pentagon.

The idea stems from the finding that service members avoid needed counseling because they believe that getting it — and acknowledging it — could cost them their clearance as well as do other harm to their careers, The Associated Press has learned.

"This is just one of several items under review by the Department of Defense and the services in an effort to remove the stigma associated with mental health issues," said Air Force Maj. Patrick Ryder.

The proposal is to omit a question regarding mental health treatment that appears on a form required by the Office of Personnel Management, the agency that does the majority of investigations for granting clearances to military and civilian workers in the federal government.



Read more: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/15/national/w142140D93.DTL

[knight_of_the_star]

1. So we are now allowing psychotics to have security clearance

Great, I'll remember to thank Bush for saving the armed forces :sarcasm:

[Posteritatis]

8. Right, because "has a mental illness" and "psycho" are synonymous. (nt)

[undergroundpanther]

11. Umm No it isn't

Psychotic disorders, post traumatic stress, manic depression,depression etc. are completely different things from the psychopathic. 1 in 4 people suffer mental illness

Psychopaths are NOT mentally ill.They lack a conscience.They are not psychotic or crazy or insane. They are an axis 2 diagnosis which means psychopaths are who they are it's a permanent disfiguring of self that cannot be cured with therapy or medication unlike mental illnesses.
Psychopaths know what they do is wrong and don't care that it harms others and they do it in such a way so they can get away with it.
In a court of law because the psychopath KNOWS right from wrong but could care less about that, this makes psychopaths SANE in a court of law.
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2005/12/role-of-psychopath-in-generation-of.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1079727.stm

A mentally ill person has an intact conscience,and often until they learn about psychopathy they blame themselves for what psychopaths CHOSE to do to them. Mentally ill people are in PAIN. And they are more likely to have been abused and psychiatrically injured by having to be raised by or live around psychopaths in their lives. I have PSTD,a mental illness I was injured by psychopaths and it is hell.Trauma and torture is the pain that never stops..for non-psychopaths, contact with psychopaths can ruin the target's life.
http://www.bullyonline.org/stress/index.htm


Psychopaths get off on doing and getting away with the very things that wounded me.So I must admit I hate sociopaths/psychopaths and do not pity or tolerate them around me.I wish they'd all just die off.

I have trouble healing from the damage done, not sure it can be helped sometimes. I've been in therapy for years ,on a bunch of medications,my life sucks,and it may have been very different if I was not forced to be around psychopaths in my life..(home, school psych hospitals where socialized sociopaths/psychopaths thrive in positions of power-over)

Do not confuse psychopathy/sociopathy with psychosis.
I am so tired of being lumped in with assholes by people ignorant of what mental illness IS and is not.

[Posteritatis]

12. Insert definition of "sarcasm" here

My SO and little sister both have mental illnesses; I'm pretty sure I'm far more familiar with the concept of what mental illnesses are than the guy who equated the entire concept with "psychotics" in the post I responded to.

[undergroundpanther]

13. Oh that sucks

I hope they can access help. It's been hard to get help since bush is "starving the beast" which means mental health services are being de-funded. The place I go to for case management(and they are kick ass people BTW) Just got a 40% fund cut and they have more clients than ever.

You would not believe how much this shit pisses me off.
Anyways I want you to know on DU here there is a mental illness support group,I post there when I am pissed or can't take it,ask questions..It's also for relatives/friends of mentally ill people.
IMHO it's the best group of folks on DU.But than again I am biased..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=276

I have been trying to help the consumer movement,to protect our rights and freedoms doing advocacy and whatnot with peer run stuff(On our own). http://www.onourownmd.org/
I am trans-gender so I help out at one of three GBLT oriented consumer drop in's in the entire country,Hearts and Ears in Baltimore(an affiliate of OOO) when I can get out there. One of the other GBLT drop in's in New York marched with us at pride one year, their drop in is called Fruits and Nuts. I love the name cracked me up .LOL.
OOO has got an anti-stigma campaign, one that points out not only mental illness stigmas but cultural ones in psych settings,(cultural competency) and wherever else it crops up.And it crops up more than most people ever want to think it does..One I think really helps laypeople "Get it" and become sensitized about stigma and it's effects on people.
http://www.onourownmd.org/asp.html

[Posteritatis]

19. Truuuuuust me, I'd believe it. :P

Family situation aside, I did a history thesis on perceptions of mental illness. Ow. (It was for an earlier period, but today's still ow.)

And they're both doing alright so far. The one's been stable for a few years. My sister's in the middle of the Diagnostic Boogie (we'll test you for these 731822515 things, and Murphy will guarantee the last one we check is it). I'm optimistic, in any case, and she started managing a bit better the moment she initiated the getting-help process, which is good. Taking control and all that good stuff.

Thanks for the link, though; I should probably pass that on, since she's especially worried about stigma or "being just like" some folks with one thing or another she doesn't like. (Mental illness and being a horrible jackass are independent of one another, but if, say, your recent ex had both qualities.. urgh.)

But yeah, despite being (as far as I can tell) healthy as far as the cranial fusebox goes, I still can't understand why it's so goddamned hard not to spit on, as you mentioned in another post, a very large fraction of the population as intrinsically dangerous for no good reason.

[undergroundpanther]

21. People have been conditioned

To not upset the bully.It's like our culture is aping the psychopath elites as if the perks they stole will trickle back.It never does yet they believe if they just appease..It looks like stockholm syndrome on a mass scale. People need to be educated about what mental illness is and what it is NOT.
Sociopathy/psychopathy is NOT a mental illness.

If there was a accurate way to tell who's the sociopaths and sort them from the people with a conscience,(which includes the mentally ill and psychiatric injured BTW)..
A reliable and precise accurate tool or syndrome just to distinguish people with a conscience no matter how they look or whatever clearly ..from the sociopaths...

I would have no problem with declaring open season on sociopaths , just killing them all off.

Sociopaths invade and push boundaries to get what they want,Sociopaths ruin social situations, corrupt organizations ,They dominate,bully, lie,abuse,and hurt people they come in contact with and prey upon, that's all they do.

What good are they to us? None. Sociopaths can't be cured.Sociopaths cannot grow a conscience,however because they know right from wrong and just don't care about that,they can fake out idealistic or naive parole boards and shrinks by pretending they have one, than they go out and hurt somebody with their "freedom".

I really have no moral issue with wiping out every sociopath that exists and would ever exist,off Earth.
ONLY IF they can be reliably sorted out from the people that may have done crimes but have a conscience and can care about others lives and well being and can or desire to change themselves..first.

And with this social blindness and cognitive dissonance and myths about sociopaths going around .. I don't see people "getting it" enough to realize that in actual life we are locked on a planet with a bunch of bad people in our midst who see themselves as perfect and they will exploit our kindness goodwill and tolerance,and they'll hurt us if we pity them ,make excuses for them,pretend they are something they are not,or appease them.. very soon.

Mental illness will be in these shocking statistic numbers until something serious and lasting is done about the sociopath problem in human society.

Anti-Death penalty people argue the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime,I agree with them.
Because I think it was never meant as a deterrent, it is a permanent solution to the sociopath problem. As in there is 1 less sociopath alive to commit hundreds of crimes,when a parole board inevitably gets duped and charmed and the asshole gets free again.

The fact the threat of the death penalty does not deter psychopaths from doing crimes tells you something about the danger of letting a sociopath exist in our midst..And about sociopath itself.

I think alot of mentally ill people suffer from psychiatric injury.Trauma can scar the brain.
Others may have brain disorders or stress..but mental illness can be helped by therapy .Sociopaths cannot.

[knight_of_the_star]

27. You ignored my sarcasm smily

And quite frankly hypothetically I wouldn't want someone fighting next to me who is paranoid or bipolar or any number of mental illnesses considering that mentally healthy people suffer heavy strain during combat. And yes I have a good friend who is bipolar and she is quite normal because she has the therapy and meds she needs. I somehow doubt soldiers being put into the meat grinder are going to have either of those and be under strain that drives sane people mad as is.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. No, this is directed to REGENT U. Grads - - who just happen to be psychotic

by chance.

or not.

[undergroundpanther]

22. AArg

Psychotics are in pain

The creature you are referring to is a SOCIOPATH.Sociopath is NOT a mental illness, it cannot be cured.
Please do not lump mentally ill people(who HAVE a conscience and are no more violent than"normals" are) Don't put the mentally ill in with bad people who have no conscience.Sociopaths are the biggest danger to life our culture faces.
Mentally ill people are not dangerous any more than anyone else.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. oh damn. you are right. My sincerest apologies

you are correct. They are sociopaths, although some also suffer from other problems as well.

forgive me. my bad.

[whistle]

2. Uhmmm, the crazier the recruit the better killer they will make

[undergroundpanther]

14. "Crazy"people are no more violent than the"normals" are.

What you are referring to is SOCIOPATHS. The Sociopath is NOT mentally ill.
Please Don't lump me and people like me in with the Sociopaths. I am"crazy" because I was harmed by sociopaths. I Have a conscience.

I DON'T get off on harming others,bullying, stealing,lying ect...like SANE sociopaths DO.

Please Learn to DISTINGUISH a psychopath/sociopath from a mentally ill person. Mental illness can be cured or managed with therapy.
To lump mentally ill people as if they were violent like psychopaths is a form of ignorance it is a commonly repeated stigma against the mentally ill we DO not deserve but society perpetuates unfairly against us.
Just like the Vampire myth that abused children grow up to be psychopaths. Childhood abuse is NOT the cause of Sociopath/psychopathy. The majority of abused kids do not grow up to be perpetrators.Yest I see this myth repeated all the time. And it pisses me off because I have PSTD and I don't hurt people.
Many abused adults do not harm others like psychopaths do.

Sociopaths are not helped by therapy because it is What/Who they ARE.
Sociopaths/psychopaths are NOT crazy.They know what they do is wrong and they don't care.

[undergroundpanther]

16. No,Crazy recruits will probably die

or be killed or put their troop in danger.

What kind of problem person I think you are referring to is a SOCIOPATH/PSYCHOPATH.
A person with no conscience. Training them to kill is a scary,and very bad idea.But Sociopaths are not "crazy" they are SANE and treated as sane in a court of law. They know right from wrong and they don't care about that or who gets hurt because of their toxic personality.Psychopaths do not feel remorse, shame, love or anything beyond a power trip,a desire to dominate, win and take..
They make IDEAL soldiers if your aim is to commit torture and war crimes..And it looks like that's exactly what this Administration seeks.Looking for BAD people to do BAD things to innocent people..

A mentally ill person has a conscience. Like a "normal" person does.Violence in mentally ill population is the same as the"normal".Mentally ill people however are in psychological pain. Putting them in the military which IS an abusive environment,would hurt them more and they might not survive boot camp let alone war.
If alot of mentally ill people are put in the position to either join the military or starve or de-compensate I'd say it is maybe a covert genocide.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

3. About time.

Who doesn't have some type of mental health issue, whether it be anxiety, depression, etc? To me, getting treatment is a healthy thing.

I had to go through this when I was applying for a high clearance at my last job. They talked to my psychiatrist and therapist (anxiety and depression issues). I worked for a fed. contractor.

[Miss Chybil]

5. I agree with you and the Pentagon on this one.

It's much safer to make people feel comfortable in seeking help than to have them fearing if they do, they will lose, or not get their job.

[Journeyman]

4. Well, there's only one thing to say if asked a question like that. . .

"Shrink. You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant. . . "

And then you walk out.

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. Great Alice's Restaurant reference!

I swear to God the first thing that popped into my head when I read this was the part in Alice's Restaurant where Arlo is getting interviewed at the induction center:

I walked in and sat down and they gave
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the psychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sergeant came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

[youngdem]

7. Whoa. That's a bad idea.

There are indeed many wonderful people in this country who perhaps would best serve the public by not learning how to become a professional killer.

Their hunger for fresh meat to throw on the fire is driving the US military into a real nightmare in the future.

And when these psychotics with borderline personality disorder are taken in, deprogrammed, NOT treated during basic, shipped off to Iraq for a year a couple of times then cut loose on the streets of America with PTSD added to the cocktail.

Perfectly sound idea, fellas....:eyes:

How people support this administration is truly impossible for me to understand.

[alfredo]

9. I guess they are trying to convince freepers that they can join

without revealing their "quirks."

[undergroundpanther]

10. 1 in 4 people

Have a mental illness in this country...Asking if a person has a mental illness background sure limits how many people they can net.
The real tragedy is how common mental illness has become.And people STILL associate the mentally ill with psychopaths,and alot of people with mental illness can be killed by such relaxed standards.Another way the Bush administration expresses it's almost genocidal hatered for mentally ill people,
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/statisticsmenu.cfm
http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-health-abuse/veterans/Seroquel-for-Iraqi-soldier/view

[ShortnFiery]

15. Categorically back-a**ward logic ... just plain WRONG!

The reason people of BELIEVED good character are granted clearances is NOT because they are as "pure as the driven snow" with regard to society mores or of PERFECT mental health (whatever the hell that is) but because they are LESS LIKELY to be blackmailed or bribed.

There are many people of homosexual orientation holding HIGH security clearances within intelligence divisions of Government / Military within THE CIVILIAN WORK FORCE because they live "in the open" and, as such, (ta da!) can't be blackmailed.

The Pentagon is IMO just trying to fill up the Intelligence Field with warm bodies because it is a CLEARLY unsound practice to not ask for information that can later be used by the enemy to blackmail the troop with Security Clearance. Think about this: If it is so God AWFUL to be openly homosexual (not a mental illness) what do you think young soldiers think about mental illness?

IMO it is wrong NOT to inquire about and divulge any mental illness (or any other information that could be used as blackmail) to those who are granting you a clearance. Especially previous treatment that is associated with the "non-manly" stigma of Clinical Depression. If those who do your background checks and later grant you a clearance KNOW that you are also "up front" (not ashamed of) your mental illness, THEN you can NOT be blackmailed, ergo YOU are a GOOD CANDIDATE for a Security Clearance.

However, if you don't answer the question and you are later confronted for information and threatened with "the revelation" of your mental illness ... well, that's an OPEN invitation to encourage your enemy to PLAY ON THAT WEAKNESS, i.e., that of being open to blackmail, NOT the mere fact that you have a mental illness.

Like the bogus "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, this one stinks to high Heaven.

Up to 15-20% of the population at any one time can be diagnosed with Clinical Depression. If you've suffered one clinical depression, the fact that you have recovered does not mean that you are cured. There is NO shame in admitting other difficulties which many of us wouldn't publicize but should not be ashamed of either, i.e., such as specific phobias.

Again, you're granted a clearance because you are deemed of a background that can make you trustworthy. Neither sexual orientation NOR mild bouts of say, depression or other NON-personality disorders should ban you from obtaining your clearance. If you can be blackmailed for any reason (ashamed that you were previously treated for depression or a nervous disorder) you are NOT a good Security Risk.

[undergroundpanther]

17. What makes a person immune to blackmail besides Disclosure?

>The reason people of BELIEVED good character are granted >clearances is NOT because they are as "pure as the driven snow" >with regard to society mores or of PERFECT mental health
> (whatever the hell that is) but because they are LESS LIKELY
>to be blackmailed or bribed.

Psychopaths/sociopaths are one segment of the population that is unmoved by their own habits being revealed publicly(especially if they get away with it) They have no feelings of guilt or shame.. They manipulate others and too often others oblige them and omit the truth from their own consciousness for these sociopath thugs are"charming" that way..

>There are many people of homosexual orientation holding
>HIGH security clearances within intelligence divisions of >Government / Military within THE CIVILIAN WORK FORCE
>because they live "in the open" and, as such,
> (ta da!) can't be blackmailed.

>My father had secret clearance and he was
>a drunk,a bully and a psychopath who raped me at age 7.
>So much for the nice story you say about the general
> moral character of HIGH LEVEL clearance people.
>Anyways if the facts of his bad character was revealed
>I don't think he'd given a shit really..

IMO it is wrong NOT to inquire about and divulge any mental illness (or any other information that could be used as blackmail) to those who are granting you a clearance. Especially previous treatment that is associated with the "non-manly" stigma of Clinical Depression.

>I agree. But if a person is a psychopath/sociopath,
>what if one of those people signed up?
>Would you accept them into the service?
T>he Military has plenty of sociopaths in the ranks and brass.

>If you can be blackmailed for any reason (
>ashamed that you were previously treated for depression
>or a nervous disorder) you are NOT a good Security Risk.

Like I said sociopaths are shameless they don't care if they do wrong and other people find out..That callousness makes them
IMMUNE to blackmail.The social/emotional tool of "losing face" is the innate threat motive behind blackmail.Sociopaths could care less what anyone thinks of them.I have a gut feeling sociopaths are ideal recruits they are looking for.And the military's sorting of what types of recruits get in to which positions would reveal this preference for psychopaths/sociopaths IF the process was made public.

Sociopath in the military
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/weekinreview/09carey.html?ex=1182139200&en=ba2e5ff8d9461cc4&ei=5070

Drugs designed to Kill a conscience..ON PURPOSE.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2964509

[ShortnFiery]

18. If you read the last paragraph again, I stated those with NON-Personality Disorders.

Unless they are of low intelligence or have run into trouble with the law, uncovering Antisocial Personality Disorder is often difficult to identify and even more tenuous to diagnosis.

Personality Disorder treatments are even less effective than that given to Sex Offenders and Pedophile perpetrators.

Please do not confuse personality disorders with more pervasive mood disorder that up to 20% of the population may have to endure on and off throughout their lifetime.

You grant people security clearances because they have a pattern of RESPONSIBLE behavior (FBI background check) that the investigator and those who perform the reviews conclude that would be LEAST susceptible to blackmail or corruptive methods such as bribery.

BTW that's why marital infidelity can potentially snag loose your clearance unless you are in a CLEARLY open marriage. :wow: It's not just having a mood or anxiety disorder (many good people do just fine in life) and trying to "cover it up" BUT also ANY BEHAVIOR (infidelity) that sets you up as a potential target for enemy agents to flip loyalties. :shrug:

Again, up to 20% of our population suffers from some sort of mood disorder. More than not, those who suffer from mild cases of certain mood disorders or phobias excel at their jobs and are people of high intelligence.

Being OPEN that you are seeking treatment OR that you have in the past (just in case depression resurfaces) is THE BEST way you can serve yourself and your country, i.e., if your illness is out in the open, you can NOT be blackmailed.

[undergroundpanther]

24. Some personality disorders are not

Dangerous. I have dissociative Identity. It is a personality disorder. BUT I am not a psychopath and have no history of violence beyond defending myself against sexual attack and assault, like a "normal" person would..Borederline personalities can be manipulative and cruel and can be a pain in the ass or difficult but they are NOT Sociopaths.Borderlines have a conscience.

Sociopath is Unique among personality issues..It is a case of NO CONSCIENCE, and it's becoming less difficult to detect sociopaths.Because people are looking at PATTERNS of behavior. Instead of what is presented at the moment only.
Also some shrinks are giving up the everyone is the same inside kind of solipsism thinking and recognizing the incurable danger sociopath creates in society.

Primary sociopaths, with diminished ability to experience anxiety and to form conditioned associations between antisocial behavior and the consequent punishment, will be unable to progress through the normal stages of moral development. Unlike most children who are biologically prepared to learn empathy, they are contraprepared to do so, and will remain egoistic- unable to acquire the social emotions of empathy, shame, guilt, and love. They present at an early age with "unsocialized" conduct disorder. Secondary sociopaths, with normal emotional capacities, will present, generally at a later age, with "socialized" conduct disorder (Loeber 1993, Patterson 1993, Simons 1993).

http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html
http://www.escapeabuse.com/

Soon we will be able to detect sociopaths/psychopaths from people with a conscience.The difficulty of making this distinction is rapidly being eroded.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Thank-you for the well researched information.

I have not kept up to date with the research, especially with regard to diagnosis and treatment of Personality Disorders. :blush:

Thanks much for the quality update. :hi:

[Elspeth]

25. This is so that members of Free Republic can actually enlist now.

:)

[militaryspouse]

28. ..

this news is good news. Men are usually the ones that keep this stuff bottled inside. They need to know they won't be penalized for opening up.

[ShortnFiery]

29. No it means that they are potential candidates for blackmail. It's good news for our enemies.

Being up front as to if you've smoked a little dope or have had assistance with regard to an mood disorder (which most people never fully recover from and periodically must take medication such as antidepressants) means that you SHOULD be ASKED and should answer honestly.

IF YOU are NOT asked and then approached by an enemy agent, you CAN BE BLACKMAILED.

This is insanity. What the military needs to tell soldiers is that, UNLIKE Homosexuality :eyes:, having a mild mood disorder OR seeking counseling is NOT something that will necessarily deny them a clearance.

By taking this question off of the list, it encourages people to "cover up" and continue to be ashamed of something that is not, in any way, abnormal.

This is the height of stupidity by the Pentagon, but sure makes our International ENEMIES quite happy. :thumbsdown: