Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Iran says dead rebels had U.S.-made arms -media

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 10:11 AM
Original message
Iran says dead rebels had U.S.-made arms -media
Source: Reuters

TEHRAN, May 31 (Reuters) - Rebels killed in clashes with Iranian forces this week had recently infiltrated border areas of the Islamic Republic carrying U.S.-made arms, an Iranian commander was quoted as saying on Thursday.

Ten rebels and seven Iranian border guards were killed in clashes in a northwestern area close to Turkey, according to Iranian media reports on Wednesday and Thursday.

"The weapons ... included M16 weapons which are being provided through channels linked to forces present in the region," General Rastegar-Panah, identified only with his last name, told state radio.

The report referred to "American-made weaponry and arms".

Tehran often accuses its old foe the United States, which invaded Iraq in 2003, of trying to undermine Iran's security by backing insurgents operating in sensitive border regions.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L31710825.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jaksavage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is all good business
The shrubs have a long history of giving arms to both sides
cheney too
this is just a wonderful war scenerio

they ARE getting away with it!

Have you protested today?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, like there are no loose US weapons running around
:eyes:

Unless they can trace the serial numbers to active US inventory, I don't think this means a whole lot. That goes for US claims of "Iranian" weapons in Iraq as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. agreed
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. The arms we supplied to the contras in the 1980s...
had no serial numbers. I would expect that practice might continue.

Bill
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Some Vietnam-era M16s turned up with Phillipine rebel groups in the 1990s...
...just as one example.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. The Boxer vs Berdan Primer problem??
Edited on Thu May-31-07 11:48 PM by happyslug
Small Arms use "Rounds" or "Cartridges" which consist of a "Bullet" (That actually goes out the barrel), "Powder" which when ignited burns providing the expanding gas to push the bullet out of the barrel, a "primer" which when hit by the weapon's hammer or firing pin, starts the ignition, all three elements are contained with a brass case (Also called a "Cartridge).

I go into the design of a round because since the US Civil War there have been two types of Primers. Boxer primers invented by a English Colonel and the Berdan Primer design by an American Colonel. The main difference between the two is the Berdan Primer has an open bottom, the bottom is provided by the brass case. The Boxer is a complete unit. When it comes to re-loading brass cartridge ammunition old Boxer primers can be pushed out of the bottom of the Brass Cartridge with a simple push through the bottom of the Brass case and a new primer loaded by pressing the new primer into the hole left by the old Primer. Berdan primers on the other hand are generally NOT considered re-loadable (There can be re-loaded but that requires somehow Pulling the primer from the base of the Brass case, not the simple push that is all that is need for a Boxer primed round).

Since most of the world do NOT re-load their ammunition, they prefer Berdan primed rounds. Over the production of thousand of rounds the simple fact all you have to do is push the Primer into its slot in the bottom of the Brass case, with the case itself providing the stop for the primer. can save thousands of Dollars in production costs.

On the Other hand the US is one of the few countries where you have a long tradition of re-loading ammunition. To accommodate this US Ammunition manufactures have almost always used Boxer primed ammunition. In the 1960s the CIA had 9mm Ammunition made with non-US markings, so the US can deny supplying the ammunition. The CIA decided to use the most distant country they could, but had to pick a country that used Boxer primers. Thus the Ammunition was marked with Canadian markings.....

Yes, the US and Canada are about the only countries that use Boxer primed ammunition, and neither has any production capability for Berdan primed ammunition (The US military, while making its own ammunition, buys the equipment from the same place Commercial ammunition gets they equipment, and thus all of it is designed for Boxer primers). Did the CIA want to go further than Canada? Yes, but could not unless the CIA was willing to set up a whole new factory for BOTH Brass and Primers (and a new plant to assemble the Brass, Bullets, Primers and Powder into 9mm Rounds).

Now since the 1970s I have run across Norma ammunition (out of Sweden) that was "Boxer primed" for the US Market. Since the fall of the Soviet union a whole lot of Ammunition has entered the US from Korea, the former Soviet Union and other locations that are Berdan primed, but this is for the Civilian Market NOT the military market. This introduction of a lot of cheap ammunition has reduced the demand for re-loadable ammunition, but the demand still exist (Which is why Norma decided to make some up starting in the 1970s) but the sad fact is you can assume ammunition is US made if it is Boxer primed and EVERY intelligence agency worth its salt knows this fact. Thus all the Iranians had to do is tear apart the Rounds (which is NOT hard to do if you just want to look at the Components) and see if the Round is Boxer of Berdan primed.

My First point it is easy to change the lettering and numbering on the bottom of the brass case, all that is are simple pressure indents. To change from Boxer to Berdan primers require not only a new factory for Round manufacturer, but new factories for the Berdan Primers AND the Brass case designed to take Berdan primers. The former is easy, the later is almost impossible without spending 100s of millions of Dollars.

My Second point is that while Serial Numbers can be faked, there are ways to determine where something (such as a Rifle) by HOW it is made. The Berdan vs Boxer primer situation is one of the most fundamental, other things like the US never shipped a certain type of weapon out of its inventory can be another (This applies to things less likely to to be shipped overseas for example communication gear, if these fighters had something more modern than what the US National Guard has it came from the US NOT via some third world country, High Explosives with recent US date of manufacture is another possibility).

The problem can be as simple as something using Metric threads as opposed to SAE thread. An example of this is when England adopted the FN FAL rifle in the 1950s. FN designed the FAL as a battle rifle firing 7.62mm NATO ammunition. The FAL as made by FN and used in most of the world used metric threads. England, when it adopted the FN FAL, converted the threads to English measurements. This conversion to English measurements made the English FALs NOT interchangeable with the Metric FALs. When Argentina took the Falklands in the 1980s both sides used FN FAL rifles. While the 7.62mm NATO Rounds were interchangeable between the two countries FN FAL Rifles, and both countries FN FALs LOOKED the same, the parts, including the removable magazines were NOT do to Argentina's FAL Rifles being METRIC and the English FALs being English. If Britain wanted to ship its FALs overseas in a convert operation it would be easy to find out that these are English thread FALs NOT metric threads FALs and as such are either English, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand or South African in Original. It could NOT be from any other Country that used the FAL (and all the other countries used them is far smaller numbers than the British with the Canadians have made their with the ability to use "Stripper Clips" in addition to interchangeable removable magazines, something most other users of the FN FAL did NOT adopt. Thus just because a weapon is "Old" does not mean you can NOT trace it.

I am speculating as to what is the evidence the Iranians have, but my point is they is NO NEED for a direct Serial Number connection, as long as the evidence shows it is very likely the weapons came from the US. This evidence can be the weapons themselves, the ammunition, the Explosives, the communication gear, or even the boots and uniforms these Fighters were wearing. I do NOT know what is the Evidence (and I will evaluate it if the Iranians release such evidence), but the evidence needed DOES NOT have to be a direct line, as long as it can be shown that the accusation of evidence is enough to show US source for the supplies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. They'll never be traced...
..but as you say, no sinister explanation is needed beyond the stupid wars we launched in the region.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Turn about's fair play". How many times has the US claimed rebels in Iraq were armed with
Iranian weapons?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SayWhatYo Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Yeah...
I wonder how much of it is true(on both sides) and how much of it is just PR war type shit... Then again, it's also probably just as likely that they truly are giving each opponents arms.

Blah, I don't trust either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. When looking at two slavish, undemocratic nations such as Amerika and Iran
it is quite difficult to see which side is telling the truth, though both are most likely lying.

Is Iran doing the "two can play at that game" thing?

Or are they simply alerting the world to the fact that Bushevik-Amerika OFTEN accuses it's enemies of EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING THEMSELVES?

As I said, when dealing with two nations like Iran and Bush-Occupied Amerika, assume BOTH are lying about damned near everything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. well, we do have a well-documented history of arming people
including terrorists and insurgents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. Iran says dead rebels had US-made arms
Source: Reuters

Iran says dead rebels had US-made arms
(Reuters)

31 May 2007

TEHERAN -
Rebels killed in clashes with Iranian forces this week had recently infiltrated border areas of the Islamic Republic carrying US-made arms, an Iranian commander was quoted as saying on Thursday.

Ten rebels and seven Iranian border guards were killed in clashes in a northwestern area close to Turkey, according to Iranian media reports on Wednesday and Thursday.

“The weapons ... included M16 weapons which are being provided through channels linked to forces present in the region,” General Rastegar-Panah, identified only with his last name, told state radio.

The report referred to “American-made weaponry and arms”.

<snip>



Read more: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2007/May/middleeast_May534.xml§ion=middleeast&col=
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Guns don't kill people...people kill people...what's the big deal?
Were they all NRA members?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Actually, guns don't kill people, bullets kill people ( sledge Hammer )
and a tit for tat article also in that part of the world;


Iranian arms to Taliban bother NATO

LAHORE: As NATO troops in Afghanistan have begun intercepting sophisticated Iranian arms bound for the Taliban, US, NATO and Afghan officials are growing more concerned about Iranian policy in Afghanistan, says a Knight Ridder report.

It’s long been conventional wisdom that Iran would do nothing to destabilise Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s shaky government or aid the Taliban, against whom Iran nearly went to war with in 1998. The Taliban obtains the lion’s share of its weapons and other aid from the proceeds of opium trafficking and from supporters in Pakistan and Arab nations, the report says.

The recent seizures of Iranian arms by British troops in Afghanistan’s war-torn southern Helmand province are challenging that assumption, however.



snip

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/?page=2007%5C05%5C31%5Cstory_31-5-2007_pg7_5

six of one, half dozen of another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Iranian Kurdish rebels linked to Turkish Kurd guerrilla group
Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) usually operate in other parts of northwestern Iran.

Almost like the 'birth of a nation' could be underway, although, against the wishes of Turkey and Iran.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
9. Can Anyone Tell Tat from Tit?
..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. haha--turnabout is fair play! Oh, those AMFUL US ARMSMAKERS!!
arming terrorists again!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Gee, I remember the days when Reagan was selling American arms to Iran
And it only cost 30,000 murdered Nicaraguan farmers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RantinRavin Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. What a bunch of bullshit.
It is completely obvious to anyone with half a brain that this is nothing more than a total smear campaign by Iran. There is no possible way any American made weapons we in the hands of rebels.

America doesn't make anything anymore. Now, it is totally plausible they found weapons of American design, manufactured in ( insert any number of countries we have outsourced manufacturing to here) in the hands of the rebels. But they certainly were not "American made".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Welcome to DU - It's possible they had a few US weapons
Those things do get stolen from our military, the Israelis, and others from time to time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I remember stories from the beginning of the war, where american weapon caches...
were literally cleaned out. I would imagine such stockpiles had all sorts of weapons, from explosives to rifles in them. Now, I doubt that there are many of those weapons left, from the beginning of the war, but it wouldn't surprise me if the U.S., being embarrassed, covers up such thefts throughout the war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Enjoy your stay. It will probably be short. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-31-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. Turkey intercepts Iranian weapons headed to Syria ---> Lebanon
Something hidden. Its a news blurb story inside a story


MIDDLE EAST: LEBANON TRIBUNAL TOPS SYRIAN-IRANIAN TALKS

Damascus, 31 May (AKI) - A UN Security Council resolution to form an international tribunal to try those suspected of assassinating a former Lebanese premier that has drawn strong criticisism from Syria topped the agenda in talks Thursday between Syrian president Basher al-Assad and Iranian foreign minister Manuchehr Mottaki. The Iranian foreign minister who arrived in Damascus on Thursday morning for a previously unannounced visit said he had come to congratulate Assad on his victory in the recent presidential referedum. ............

The visit also coincided with the seizure by Turkish authorities of an arms haul allegedly orginating from Iran and destined to pass through Syria to militias in Lebanon in contravention of UN Security Council resolutions. Sources said the issue also came up in Thursday's meetings in Damascus.

Mottaki also met his Syrian counterpart Walid al-Muallim as well as Assad's deputy, Faruq al-Sharaa.

The UN Security Council's resolution late on Wednesday paved the way for the trial of several top Syrian and Lebanese security officials implicated by an investigative panel in the 14 February 2005 assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri. Damascus has repeatedly denied any involvement in the Beirut bomb attack that killed Hariri and 22 other people.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.420521090&par=0

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SayWhatYo Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
23. If the US was supplying arms...
Wouldn't they be ;smart' enough to use non-US weapons? I mean, I'm sure the US has plenty of old Russian designed weapons locked up somewhere.



tit tat tit tat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. after a roadside bomb blast slaughters troops and civilians
how many weapons get snatched off the street?
I'd say,with time and determination, enough weapons could be acquired at these roadside trap setups.

So, if any ser.no. were still on the weapons....I wonder how many could be traced back to a dead soldier.

...thats the other side of the coin often ignored when it comes to removal of those #'s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
26. Bullshit. CIA used AK variants for many years for the muj
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 10:02 AM by Pavulon
we have the ability to funnel russian made arms. We ran a covert war in afganistan using egyptian made ak rifles, heavy machine guns. Only after 8 years did we openly supply manpad weapons.

The m16 is carried by hamas and fatah morons. It is not like you cant buy them on the open market.



note m16a4 (probably)with second mag blocking forward assist and getting in the way if forced to clear the weapon in case of stoppage.

The us government did not sell the weapon to the ass who posed his baby with a rifle.


note colt m4. Rifle I carried around (fit in truck), colt did not sell this weapon to these assholes.


Some American units train on the ak variants.
http://blaire576.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/ak-47-inventor-us-troops-in-iraq-prefer-my-rifle-to-theirs/



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
razorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-06-07 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
27. It seems to be a logical step, if the U.S. is serious about stopping Iran from getting nukes.
If we can foment a revolution in Iran to destabilize their regime, it might prevent us from some day having to put U.S. troops on the ground there. It also seems to be tit-for-tat, considering the Iranian aid going to the Iraqi militants in order to kill American troops and Iraqi civilians.
That being said, it probably won't work, since very little in the ME ever goes according to plan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC