NYT: Doubts Grows as G.I.’s in Iraq Find Allies in Enemy Ranks

[FreeStateDemocrat]

Source: NY Times


By MICHAEL KAMBER
Published: May 27, 2007
BAGHDAD — Staff Sgt. David Safstrom does not regret his previous tours in Iraq, not even a difficult second stint when two comrades were killed while trying to capture insurgents.

“In Mosul, in 2003, it felt like we were making the city a better place,” he said. “There was no sectarian violence, Saddam was gone, we were tracking down the bad guys. It felt awesome.”

But now on his third deployment in Iraq, he is no longer a believer in the mission. The pivotal moment came, he says, this past February when soldiers killed a man setting a roadside bomb. When they searched the bomber’s body, they found identification showing him to be a sergeant in the Iraqi Army.

“I thought, ‘What are we doing here? Why are we still here?’ ” said Sergeant Safstrom, a member of Delta Company of the First Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry, 82nd Airborne Division. “We’re helping guys that are trying to kill us. We help them in the day. They turn around at night and try to kill us.”

(cont'd)

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/world/middleeast/28cnd-delta.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[aquart]

1. The Iraqis are doing what one is supposed to do to invaders.

We're just having a hard time wrapping our minds around the concept that WE are the invaders. WE are the bad guys.

[Tom Joad]

4. Iraqis are standing up. Every time a US humvee is hit, Iraqis are standing up against foreign

and belligerent invaders. Despite the illusions held by individual troops, the US is the problem in Iraq.

[Dhalgren]

5. Dead on, aquart! Dead fucking on!

We have to get out. And get out now. Every day that the Republicans and Democrats extend the hell of this occupation, is another day in hell for all of us. That's right, we will have to pay for this shit, and we all know it (whether we want to admit it or not...

[Tom Joad]

6. Do you actually believe that people have the right to armed resistance to an occupying army?

[frogcycle]

8. of course not

they should just be quiet and do as they are told, like the US congress :sarcasm:

[emilyg]

11. Yes.

[youngdem]

13. Of course.

How could it be that they would not?

[kimmylavin]

15. Um

You have heard of the American Revolution, right?

[annabanana]

18. You stir a mean pot, Mr. Joad.. . . . . n/t

[Phrogman]

26. Zing!

good one.

[aquart]

27. Is this a joke question?

A right? A duty!

That why the French Resistance is honored. And the Vichy government isn't.

[Tom Joad]

38. What do you think of Palestinians who throw rocks at Israeli tanks?

[Richard Steele]

7. Exactly. Just as EVERYONE has always done, to whatever extent they could. nm

[beardown]

10. What you said

We are the invaders. We ignored the Geneva conventions. We ignored the UN and international law. We sanctioned torture from the highest levels of our government. We used illegal weapons in taking cities from the resistance. We set up their government and constitution with a colonial power type of oil control.
The truth hurts or at least it should. No amount of flag waving or media control will change the facts on the ground in Iraq that places patriotic Iraqis in the position of having to resist a foreign occupying power.
Just because we aren't in the same league as Nazi Germany or Empiral Japan doesn't mean that we are not the bad guys in Iraq. No matter how honorable or brave or sacrificing our troops are in Iraq, their efforts have been betrayed by an administration that placed them into an immoral war with insufficient resourses.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. The truth hurts, and it should.

yep.

You should post more often, neighbor. :hi:

[xxqqqzme]

25. I gotta tell you - that last sentence packs

a wallop!

[aquart]

28. The German and Japanese armies were filled with brave, honorable men.

And tens of thousands of them sacrificed their lives. And their widows wept real tears.

They were still invaders. They were still the bad guys. What does the honor of the army have to do with the mission of the government?

[PurpleChez]

33. Right on.

While I mourn the death of each and every American serviceperson I simply can't muster up hate for the "enemy." We should not be there. We should not have gone there in the first place. We illegally invaded and occupied a sovereign nation and thus have no right to object to a resistance rising in response to our presence.

[lovuian]

2. Iraqi Army is a sham

they can't be trusted

[Karenina]

19. Except by those who want the invaders

EXPELLED.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kimmylavin]

16. EXACTLY

If we did wind up "fighting them over here", we would be calling ourselves patriots!

[Lisa]

24. even Canada fought back when the US invaded

For example, in the war of 1812, there were many instances of irregular militias forming to harrass occupying forces -- sometimes even including women and children, providing assistance and information to the Canadian/British army units. And that was at a time when quite a number of the people living in Canada were from the US originally. In border areas, almost 2 centuries later, these exploits are still recalled proudly. One popular brand of candy, "Laura Secord", was named after someone -- born in the US -- who likely would have been punished as a civilian collaborator if the war had ended with a US victory rather than a truce.


President Madison also thought it would be an easy victory. He was incorrect. (Though in comparison, he comes across much more sympathetically -- at least he was out there fighting, unlike today's administration. When the White House was burned, he was away leading the US forces. If such a thing happened today, it would be because Bush was on vacation, or because he ran away at the first sign of trouble ("forget about D.C., it's full of Democrats anyway").

[IndianaGreen]

9. Dear Sgt. Safstrom, because the Democrats caved in to Bush on the war

you and your men are going to be stuck in Iraq until at least 2009.

How I wish Reid and Pelosi had not squandered their electoral mandate!

[Bigmack]

12. “We’re helping guys that are trying to kill us.....

...We help them in the day. They turn around at night and try to kill us."

Where did I hear that before... OH YEAH.... in Vietnam! We were on a MedCap patrol and somebody stepped on a mine coming out of the hamlet. One of the Marines.... must have been a college grad... said "Try to help these muthas during the day and at night they just try to kill us."

Most Iraqi soldiers aren't even in the "insurgency"... they're just poor shlubs who need a job. Wait until those guys are going up against the rabid-assed militias...... "Want some Iraqi Army rifles... never been fired and only dropped once?"

[The Wizard]

20. We owned the day

and Charlie owned the night. Never underestimate people defending their homeland.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Sergeant Safstrom is a part of a colonial occuaption force

Why he thinks he is welcome there is a mystery.

[MetaTrope]

17. Iraqi Army sergeant was just following BFEE orders

It's good for U.S. business.

[Ian David]

21. We're training them over there so they'll be equpped to fight us over here. n/t

[aquart]

30. Like we trained bin Ladin in Afghanistan?

And wasn't that just brilliant of us.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

29. AIPAC?

This is the fault of the Jews?

[TheWraith]

35. AIPAC != Jews.

Just as PNAC != Americans. It's just an influnce group (and intelligence cover organization) for ultra-nationalist Israelis in the Likud mold--one which, notably, is not supported by the majority of American Jews.

[jaysunb]

31. News Flash, Sgt.Stafstrom

This is not anything new...and your commanders knew it.
Those nice people that worked by my side and were paid American taxpayer money, were quite often VC by night...we found out the same way you did.....your commanders know this.

You can not occupy anothers country. OK ?

[northofdenali]

32. Why? n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Let me say this: I really don't care what "the troops" believe

You will find one of them to support the war for every one that opposes it or has doubts. Either way, it doesn't and shouldn't matter. They are citizens (mostly) just like the rest of us, and their opinions and beliefs do not count more than ours.

In any case, the new line coming from Administration hacks and flacks seems to be a lot of nonsense about what "the troops" (a noxious phrase, if ever there was one, which is only made worse by the nauseating possessive form of "our troops") believe. To wit, they "believe" in the "mission" and "believe" that they are "doing good work," and other such platitudes. McCain has been on this jag for quite some time, constantly noting that he "talks to the troops" and they "believe in the mission." Today on NPR I heard another story in which some flack notes that "the troops" truly "believe" that they are helping the Iraqis, or at least making Americans "safer." The kicker for this story was one such "troop" who noted that THE ENEMY (tm) would be "bombing our sporting events" if "the troops" weren't "keeping them busy" in Iraq - a nice concrete twist on the old "fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here" canard. Then the story just ended with that. This soldier genuinely believes such nonsense, and that is story enough! Talk about the assault on reason!

The obvious follow-up questions (obvious to anyone not thoroughly subsumed by our opinion culture, or operating as an out-and-out propagandist) were never asked:

1) On what basis do you hold this belief?
2) Does this belief have any grounding in fact?

No. We shall have none of that. A soldier "believes" something, and that is enough. It is, of course, the damn near medieval logic of argument from authority, with the even more absurd caveat that authority is no longer even dependent on esoteric or proven knowledge, but can be gotten merely by signing a sheet of paper and taking a number of weeks of military basic training! If one of "the troops" so much as "believes" something, we are meant to take that as a positive contribution to a policy debate!

So, I really don't care if "the troops" are for the war, or against it. Except in their functions as citizens, their particular opinions are irrelevant. Since this article merely plays in to the same irrational and anti-democratic story-line (that we should be extra attentive to the ungrounded opinions of "troops"), it does not move us forward in the least bit.

[Grandrose]

36. Hey....Commander Guy!

Are you listening to the troops on the ground? Thought not!!!:mad: :kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. "Doubts Grows [sic]..."

Thanks, Times. :hug:
















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