Vote Against Killing Wild Horses, Burros

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Vote Against Killing Wild Horses, Burros
By SUZANNE GAMBOA, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, April 26, 2007
(04-26) 10:50 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --

The House voted Thursday to prevent the government from selling off for slaughter any wild horses and burros that roam public lands in the West.

The 277-137 vote would restore a 1971 law preventing the Bureau of Land Management from selling the animals for commercial processing.

The protection was removed in 2004 when former Sen. Conrad Burns, R-Mont., inserted a measure in a spending bill allowing their sale.

"These animals were earmarked for death," said the bill's sponsor, Democratic Rep. Nick Rahall of West Virginia, chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/26/national/w105036D51.DTL&type=politics

[BlackHawk706867]

1. That's great news, cause these bastards just aren't happy unless they are killing something... eom

[MidwestTransplant]

2. Burns should have been more careful...he may have nearly caused himself

to be the one eating that meat since I am sure it would served in prison where he is hopefully heading.

[robbyrob79]

3. I just wonder

What's the big deal with this? Horses aren't a native species to North America, so why shouldn't we do something to keep their population under control?

[Judi Lynn]

6. Why kill them? n/t

[Bacchus39]

8. why allow deer hunting then?

deer are pretty cute too. and at least they are native.

[jaybeat]

19. You can't domesticate deer

Horses and burros, on the other hand, are bred and owned by people for all kinds of uses, from pets to pulling power. Calling them "cute" misses the point, which is, for whatever reason, while cows, pigs, chickens and some other animals are raised to be eaten (also barbaric and cruel, in my opinion, but that is another issue), horses and burros are not. (Presumably because they are "worth" more to people for what they can do while they are alive.)

Now, as far as managing their numbers in the wild, it seems that this prohibition is a natural extension of our cultural preference. Since eating horse or burro is frowned upon, hunting them to reduce their numbers and environmental impact is similarly objectionable. Willing adoptive owners are turned away at BLM auctions; it is not as if no one wants to do anything else with them so we might as well kill them.

There's also, I think, an element of human responsibility at work here. We domesticated equines millennia ago, so they are *our* responsibility to take care of, wild or otherwise. Since we have never primarily raised these animals to eat, to turn around and do it now doesn't seem very "fair," in a species-to-species kind of way, especially since we brought them to this hemisphere.

Now, my opinion on hunting is consistent with this, but less mainstream. I believe that since the only reason deer, elk, etc. have overpopulation problems is because humans have upset the natural balance, we should prioritize predator reintroduction over hunting. If we do "have" to kill animals for the good of the herd/species, then we should hunt as the predators do, by killing the weak, sick and old animals, not the best and the biggest.

But regardless, wild horses and burros are both our responsibility and a significant part of our heritage. IMHO, they deserve better than to be shot for the "fun" of it.

[StarryNite]

11. Using that argument

then unless you're an American Indian you shouldn't be here either.

[slackmaster]

17. Even that one breaks down

There was a time, not too long ago, when there were no humans here either.

[juno jones]

39. I know some native americans. They don't mind sharing...

...they just don't want to be fucked...again.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

61. We should.

We need to reintroduce predators like wolves and mountain lions to those areas.

[damntexdem]

4. What a waste of time!

The Dems have some serious business to do, opposing the mess the Bushistas have made of the country.

[OnyxCollie]

46. Opinions are like assholes.

And yours stinks.

Unlike the Don't Do Shit Congress last session, this Congress can accomplish more than one thing simultaneously.

BTW, thanks for your compassion.

[Scout]

65. yeah, and we're all too stupid and lazy to care about more than

one thing at a time ... :eyes:

[StarryNite]

5. Blood lust

Those republicans have blood lust.

Thank you for posting this. It's really close to my heart because we see a small herd of wild horses every summer when we go camping. They are so beautiful. They walk around the campsite grazing and just being horses. Now I am anxious to see if they will be there when we go camping in a few weeks. It seems some sickos decided to kill some of the horses in that area.

Serial killer unique to 'new' Wild West

E.J. Montini
Republic columnist
Jan. 11, 2007 12:00 AM

Zeke Austin has been stalking killers in Arizona's backcountry for 25 years, and he hasn't seen anything quite like this.

"It's awful," he said. "We didn't have this happening 20 or 30 years ago. Now, they just go out with a gun and kill. I guess that's part of what we've done in society."

Austin is an investigator with the Arizona Department of Agriculture. He recently has been combing the forests outside of Pinedale, northwest of Show Low, searching for clues into the killing of at least six wild or feral horses. (A feral horse is one that had been domesticated but now roams free and untamed.)

~snip~

A press release issued by an organization called In Defense of Animals describes what some of the killing grounds looked like: "Two wild horses lay dead after being shot in the head. A neighboring resident found a third horse that met the same fate. Three additional horses have been discovered dead from gunshots in the last week, including a pregnant mare and a yearling. Two of the horses were reportedly beheaded."

Catching the shooter in the vast Mogollon Rim area isn't an easy task. Austin puts his own success rate over the years at about one in five.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/columns/articles/0111montini0111.html

[Judi Lynn]

7. Thank you, StarryNite. So glad to see your first-hand witness comments,

and your excellent article.

The image of children building a blind to study the horses without frightening them was a beautiful thought. It's good to know there are still people out there guided by a higher sensibility.
On edit: I forgot to mention, welcome to D.U. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[StarryNite]

10. Thank you

for the warm welcome. :hi:

Yeah, the wild horses are really special to me. I have taken so many pictures of them over the last few years. It's fun to see how much the colts have grown between camping trips. And now I don't even know if they are still alive. :cry:

But there is some very good news:

IDA and Other Plaintiffs Win Preliminary Injunction to Prevent Wild Horse Auction

Court Rules U.S. Forest Service Cannot Remove 400 Protected Wild Horses from Arizona's Apache-Sitgreaves Forest Until Case is Resolved


Phoenix, AZ As we reported in our August 24th e-newsletter, IDA has been fighting a U.S. Forest Service (USFS) plan to remove 400 wild horses from the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest in Eastern Arizona and auction them off. The Apache-Sitgreaves Forest was designated a protected area in 1971 under the Wild Horse and Burro Territory Act. We acquired evidence that the horses have been in the area since the 17th century, and thus have the right to protection under the Wild Horse and Burro Territory Act, so we took the USFS to court.

In September, IDA, the Animal Welfare Institute, the International Society for the Protection of Burros and Wild Mustangs and private individuals in Arizona jointly filed a lawsuit to prevent wild horses living in the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests from being rounded up and sold at auction. We recently won a preliminary injunction prohibiting USFS from soliciting a bid for the capture and removal of horses from the Apache Sitgreaves Forests and from removing any horses from the Forests. The injunction will remain valid until our case is resolved via summary judgment or trial. This could take as long as one or even two years, but the horses will remain protected during this time.

http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/arizona/az_action_alert_2.htm

Those 400 horses were going to be rounded up and sold at auction for slaughter. I just don't see how people think this mass slaughter is no big deal. I can understand that attitude from a neocon but I guess I just thought Democrats were better than that and had more compassion. However, after reading some of the replies to your post I guess I was wrong. Either that or they really aren't Democrats, just posers. I am a liberal Democrat who wears my compassion proudly.

[OnyxCollie]

47. I traveled to Oatman, AZ on old Route 66.

Wild burros roamed everywhere in the little town. One walked up to the door of a general store and stood there, watching the people inside. It was really heartwarming.

[StarryNite]

48. I've been to Oatman

and those charming little burros are a big help to that town. By drawing in the tourists they keep that town alive. They are so cute, they walk right up to you. Go here to check out some pictures of them.

http://www.oatmangoldroad.com/burros.htm

Oh, and anybody that thinks they should be shot is a sick fuck.

[jody]

9. Some cultures eat horses and not pork. In the U.S. we eat pork and not horses. So what? n/t

[StarryNite]

12. In some cultures people

eat people. So what's your point?

[jody]

36. I don’t condone cannibalism except in special cases, e.g. the crew of the whale ship Essex in 1820

and the Uruguayan rugby team in 1972.

I also don’t condone killing any threatened or endangered species for food or other purpose.

Horses and burros are not native to the U.S. and I do not object to their being killed and sold for food.

[StarryNite]

38. People aren't native to North America either.

I guess since the American Indians were the first ones here we could let them slide and just kill off the rest of us to make Soylent Green.

[jody]

40. Have a great day and good bye. n/t

[StarryNite]

41. It's been real,

and it's been fun but it hasn't been real fun. L8r

[lonestarnot]

55. acccck

[OlderButWiser]

24. But I bet they

look silly riding their little piggies.

[underpants]

13. That is AWESOME news

I was amazed at this several years ago when ABC reported on it. DU'ers from out west informed me of the huge effort that was and had been made to override Burns's bribe deal. GREAT WORK EVERYONE!

[semillama]

14. Wild Horses = ecological nightmare for Western habitats

I've posted before about the problems with wild horses and how they destroy ecosystems in the West, but Ted Williams says it better:

http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0609.html

*****
"Since the BLM is the primary caregiver for feral equids, I asked Campbell how they affect native ecosystems. He conceded that cows do more damage because there are lots more of them, but he pointed out that cattle provide food and livelihoods. Feral equids are just out there perpetuating a myth, and when it comes to habitat destruction, what they lack in numbers they make up for in efficiency. “They’re worse than cows,” he says. “They do incredible damage. When the grass between the shrubs is gone a cow is out of luck, but a horse or burro will stomp that plant to death to get that one last blade. When cows run out of forage the cowboys move them or take them home, but horses and burros are out there all year. They’re not fenced; they can go anywhere. BLM exacerbates the problem by hauling water to them. Instead of just letting them die, we keep them going. There are even horses in Las Vegas, which is obscene. In the desert! The horse groups have tremendous power with Congress. They only care about horses; they couldn’t give a damn about all the wildlife that’s adversely affected.”"
*****
"Strapped though they are for adequate funding, BLM equid managers squander what they get. “It’s frustrating to see them spend money in areas that can’t maintain viable horse populations,” says Nevada Department of Wildlife habitat bureau chief Dave Pulliam. “We see places where BLM has established a management goal of 15 or 20 horses when their own science indicates that 100 is the threshold for viability. So when money is the issue why are they wasting it? Why aren’t they zeroing out these herds? Sensitive desert species like bighorns, desert tortoises, and Gila monsters can’t tolerate horses. And horses will stand over a spring and run off other animals.” Even as feral horses proliferate in areas where they can’t make a decent living, they evict native species that would otherwise thrive. As one of dozens of examples, Pulliam offers the East High Rock Canyon Wilderness, where his agency wants to rehabilitate about 30 seeps and springs once associated with lush meadows. “In desert country, seeps and springs are the most important habitats for a whole myriad of species—sagebrush obligate birds, mule deer, bighorns, pronghorns, everything,” he says. “And they are absolutely beat to mud holes. Riparian habitat has disappeared. Water tables have dropped. Horse use is excessive to the point of rendering this habitat unavailable to wildlife. Our wildlife constituents don’t get as vociferous as the horse lovers.”"
****
"In the 1980s, after the spectacular failure of the Fund for Animals’ helicopter transfer of feral burros from the Grand Canyon to happy homes, the Park Service started shooting burros, accounting for 500 by the early 1990s. Such was the public uproar that the agency is again allowing burros to proliferate. Elaine Leslie, a biologist at Grand Canyon National Park until 2004 and now assistant superintendent at Canyon de Chelly National Monument in Arizona, tells me this: “You can find burros or burro evidence in the vast majority of Grand Canyon springs or seeps. They spread exotic grasses, contaminate water, trample wetland species, remove vegetation, and eliminate small mammals, birds, and amphibians. I have seen the only water source for 20 miles get so polluted backpackers couldn’t filter it. It was once rich with wetland vegetation, an oasis for birds and frogs; now it’s devoid of vegetation. We’re spending all this money—as per President Clinton’s standing executive order—trying to control exotic invasive species, and we’re not doing anything about feral horse and burro populations. Do people really look at what happens to these animals a year after they’re adopted? They’re in a can of dog food.”"

I would so very happy if we could remove feral horses from the wild, but people let sentiment get in the way of the facts and we're destroying wildlife to keep a myth alive.

[StarryNite]

15. There are other methods

besides a mass slaughter of the horses and burros. Have you ever heard of wild horse contraception? The outlook for PZP looks very promising.

In light of these problems and the continuing need, in 1991 the scientific community identified the desired characteristics for an ideal wild horse fertility control agent, as follows:

* The agent should be at least 90% effective.
* The agent should be capable of administration by remote delivery.
* The agent should either be immediately reversible, or its effects should passively wear off.
* The agent should be safe to pregnant animals.
* The agent should not pass through the natural food chain.
* The agent should be inexpensive.
* There should be no debilitating side effects on the health of the horses.
* The agent should not influence the social behavior of the horses.

This list of needs would drive much of the U.S. research into wildlife contraception during the 1990s, including research funded by both the BLM and the USGS. To meet the stated criteria, the National Park Service research team on Assateague Island National Seashore turned to an immunocontraceptive agent, porcine zona pellucida (PZP), which had been reported to block fertilization in dogs, rabbits, and primates. Experimental PZP application on the wild horses of Assateague Island commenced in 1988, resulting in promising reductions in the pregnancy rates of mares: by 1994, population growth began to stabilize, solely using PZP immunocontraception.

http://www.fort.usgs.gov/WildHorsePopulations/Contraception.asp

[TX-RAT]

21. And the cost per horse is?

[StarryNite]

35. Don't know

but if we can spend a trillion dollars on an illegal war that is killing thousands of American troops and tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children we should be able to come up with what it would take to solve a potential problem in a humane fashion.

[Coventina]

56. Thanks StarryNite, you've done a great job in this thread.

We are the richest nation on earth, we could "afford" to do whatever we chose to do. The problem is not money, but values and priorities.

[StarryNite]

58. Thank you Coventina

As you can tell, I am very passionate about this subject. I love the creatures that walk, swim, and fly this earth. I don't understand the coldness in some of the posts on this thread. It's ridiculous for some of the people to make blanket statements to the effect that the wild horses and burros can't exist with the native animal populations. In controlled numbers they can. And like you said it's about values and priorities. Mass slaughter of healthy animals shouldn't even be an option.

[Xithras]

22. I agree with that. They should let them die.

I'm a horse owner, and I understand the damage that wild horses do to these habitats enough to comprehend that current management practices don't work. The BLM needs to stop practices that include supporting horses in environments that cannot sustain them. If some of the horses die of thirst, that's the way nature works. The population will drop to a sustainable level, and the environment will be better off for it. Most of the problems with the wild horse populations are a direct result of the BLM's poor attempts to "manage" them.

[jaybeat]

29. Let's dump you and your family somewhere and see how you do

If you have trouble adapting, or adapt "too well" and overpopulate, we'll tell the folks that dumped you there that they aren't responsible and should just let you die, because "that's how nature works."

Domestication and ecosystems are like Iraq--you break it, you own it.

Now, you're right, the BLM has screwed up royally, but that doesn't mean we get to walk away from the mess that we (our species, anyway) created. We have a moral obligation to fix it in the most humane way possible.

[TX-RAT]

30. Wasn't there an adopt a horse program for these?

How many did you adopt?

I would have but between 4 horses, 68 cows, 2 Bulls, 4 dogs and 14 cats, my plates kinda full.

It's my opinion, that all the horses should be removed from the area. they ain't wild, their just feral, like all the feral goats and hogs that are destroying so much land in TX. La. OK. and most other southern states.

[jaybeat]

31. There was. The repukes cut the budget in favor of hunting them.

They've been there since the 1500s. They've been a part of Native American culture since that time.

If humans put them there, then we are obligated to take care of them.

[Xithras]

44. My point is that the ecosystem needs to be restored.

Humans broke it, and the horses are simply one of the ways that occurred. Unlike many people, I actually don't support the complete eradication of wild horses in the southwest. Up until fairly recently, ecologically, there WERE wild horses in North America. They can survive here without our help, and there is an equilibrium that can be reached.

We need to allow nature to re-establish itself according to its own rules. Yes, that means some animals currently living in unsustainable ecosystems will die. It also means that the animals which originally existed in those ecosystems will flourish. This is the way nature is supposed to work. In every case, mankinds misguided attempts to "manage" nature have done more harm than good. We need to learn to step back and let nature run herself. We need to give land back to nature. We need to reduce the impact of humans on our environment. We need to accept the fact that we can't control everything.

Horses will not go extinct again if we quit feeding and watering them. Some will die, some will survive. The species will react with Darwinian efficiency and find itself a niche it can survive in. That is the only way these horses, and the other animals in that environment, are going to survive over the longer term.

[StarryNite]

32. Luckily this slaughter was stopped, for now.

The second paragraph of the following article is very telling. And once again, the fire that drove these horses up into this area was caused by humans. It was actually two fires which combined. One was set by an arsonist and the other by a woman who was lost. It consumed 467,066 acres of woodland. Now, who is the bigger blight on the forests, horses or humans?

US Forest Service to Capture 400 Arizona
Wild Horses for Auction
National Animal Protection Groups Move to Stop Removal

PHOENIX (Aug. 31, 2005)—We have learned that the US Forest Service plans to remove 400 wild Arizona horses from the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest in Eastern Arizona and sell them at auction in Sun Valley, near Holbrook, Ariz. Most or all of the 400 horses, including mares and foals, will go to slaughter. The agency intends to accept a final bid on gathering these horses from their territory no later than Sept. 8, 2005. Its officials will then authorize the contractor to begin rounding up or trapping the horses as soon as 10 days after the contract is awarded.

~snip~

In a letter to IDA, a Forest Service official wrote that the horses are being removed because they interfere with efforts to reestablish vegetation in the area damaged by the Rodeo-Chediski fire. However, the same letter indicated tall grasses from the reseeding project had lured the horses, and local residents report the grasses have never before been so tall and lush. We suspect the real motivation for the horses’ removal originates from a June 2005 report from the Senate Appropriations Committee to Congress, instructing Arizona and other western states to use additional public land for grazing contracts.

We have retained an attorney and have asked the Forest Service to stop the removal of the horses—or we will seek court intervention.

http://www.awionline.org/wildlife/whb/heber/index.htm




~

[harpboy_ak]

50. It's time to solve the problem

These animals are destroying vast ecosystems, and they have not predators since western farmers and ranchers have shot most of the bears, wolves, and wild cats that would have kept the horses in check.

I know folks will idiotically insist that these "magnificent" animals should be saved, but no one wants to adopt them. They should be rounded up and humanely shot, AND THE MEAT SHOULD NOT BE WASTED. there is no reason why it can't be dog food, surely a better source of protein for pets than contaminated chinese wheat gluten.

i really mean that. the most humane way to deal with these horses is to round them up, anesthisize them, and put them down with one clean bullet through the brain. leaving them on the land doesn't help them or the ecosystem. i'm not being cruel, simply being practical.

these feral animals simply do not belong on that land. period.

[StarryNite]

51. Oh?

And the cattle do belong on that land? And people who are responsible for burning down acres and acres of forest land every year do? There are much better ways to solve the problem than to "humanely" slaughter them. And there are also many successful adoptions every year.

[StarryNite]

52. If you really want to get rid of the jackasses,

let's start with you. It wasn't the horses and burros that created a problem. They didn't ask to be abandoned. They didn't burn down the forests either. There is nothing humane about a mass slaughter. Especially when there are other ways to handle the situation. Why do some of you people want to solve every problem by killing things?

[Judi Lynn]

53. They come from a completely different realm. Can't imagine living like that.

It's a deteriorated approach to life which makes everything a whole lot uglier and more painful for others who have to share a world with them, or what's left of a world.

It sure as hell wasn't the animal kingdom which created this nightmare, either.

[semillama]

54. Why put the preservation of feral horse above actual native animals?

Why are non-native horses more valuable than the songbirds that depend on the riparian corridors the horses destroy?

I guess since the Lahontan Cutthroat Trout isn't as cuddly as a cute horsey, it's ok to allow their habitat to be destroyed by feral horse herds.



or how about the sage grouse?



Not cute enough? How about a Pronghorn - competition by feral horses have extirpated some populations.



I don't know that anyone is advocating mass slaughter, but by advocating for keeping feral horses in the wild in habitats that they never evolved in concert with is advocating the destruction of that habitat, and that's the same as saying it's ok to lose populations of native species so a romantic myth can be kept alive for the enjoyment of a few humans. Arguments about sustainable populations are, bluntly, horsecrap and not based in science. There cannot be sustainable populations because these horses are not a native species in their natural habitat. The bottom line is that like any invasive species, we'd be better off without feral horses in the wild.

[StarryNite]

57. You don't know that anyone is advocating

mass slaughter? Just read some of the posts on this thread. You say that horses are not a native species and therefore should not be allowed to remain in the wild, well what about cattle in those same areas?

In a letter to IDA, a Forest Service official wrote that the horses are being removed because they interfere with efforts to reestablish vegetation in the area damaged by the Rodeo-Chediski fire. However, the same letter indicated tall grasses from the reseeding project had lured the horses, and local residents report the grasses have never before been so tall and lush. We suspect the real motivation for the horses’ removal originates from a June 2005 report from the Senate Appropriations Committee to Congress, instructing Arizona and other western states to use additional public land for grazing contracts.

We have retained an attorney and have asked the Forest Service to stop the removal of the horses—or we will seek court intervention.

http://www.awionline.org/wildlife/whb/heber/index.htm

Many people do believe that wild horses and burros can exist in the wild and their populations can be controlled. Wild horse contraception is a very promising way to achieve that goal. There are responsible ways of dealing with the wild horse and burro populations. It's a shame that so many people want to solve problems with bullets.



They didn't ask to be displaced by a human caused forest fire.

[jaybeat]

76. Why blame the horses when it is our fault?

Humans are the biggest threat to native species. We are responsible for the conflict between horses and natives, though I'm sure that the threat from equines to native plants and animals is microscopic compared to the threats they face from human activity *directly*--you know, stuff like habitat destruction, grazing, pollution, development, hunting the strongest (pronghorns? Hello!), etc.

At worst, the poor horses and burros are just caught in the middle.

But it is so much easier to blame another creature than to blame ourselves, isn't it?

We made this mess. It is our responsibility to fix it, in the most humane way possible.

[slackmaster]

16. Those animals are not wild, they are feral and damaging to native species

Humane considerations notwithstanding.

[OlderButWiser]

25. Are there no number of

generations that could pass that could make them be considered wild?

[slackmaster]

26. I'm not qualified to answer that question in a scholarly way

I think that would be a matter of personal opinion.

[OlderButWiser]

27. From my limited knowledge...

they are certainly acting wild.

[slackmaster]

28. So are the canyon cats in my neighborhbood

But I doubt that many would call them wild animals.

[MasonJar]

18. How many times do we have to [ass this or similar measures to

protect these magnificent creatures. Thank God, Conrad Burns is gone.

[StarryNite]

20. For the Beautiful Creatures

Here is a little family of three that we had the pleasure to watch from our campsite last summer. Hope to see them again, alive and well in a few weeks. Oh, and keep in mind that these "feral" horses are now where they are because of a huge forest fire that was human caused a few years ago. Until then, they had been on the Indian reservation.

[jaybeat]

23. Stunning; thank you.

What beautiful photos! Thank you for sharing.

At the risk of being flamed, I think some folks need to be reminded how magnificent and special these creatures are. And, as you point out, they are, ultimately, OUR responsibility. For thousands of years, they have worked for us, at worst under horrific conditions, but, at best, as our partners and family.

We owe it to them to make sure they have a good quality of life, whether under the care of humans or in the wild. If they cause problems for us or other animals, it is up to US to fix the problems with the fewest ill effects to them as possible.

[StarryNite]

33. Thank you

for appreciating these gorgeous creatures. That magnificent buckskin is the stud. He is very protective of his little family.

I agree with you 100%. It's about time we started taking care of Earth and her creatures instead of using death and destruction as the way to solve problems.

[aaronbees]

49. They are beautiful indeed ...

Thank you for sharing them - they symbolize exactly why I'm thankful for this legislation.

[StarryNite]

34. To those who say "just kill them"

you sound just like bush neocons. If something is in your way, kill it. For instance the Iraqis are in the way of "our" oil, so just bomb them and take the oil. It's the same kind of sick logic. Instead of fixing problems some people just want to "Shock and Awe" what they perceive to be a problem.

[slackmaster]

42. How about sterilize-and-release, like some people do with feral cats?

They get to live out their lives in peace and harmony. What say you, StarryNite?

[StarryNite]

45. I think that could be a good option.

And since they most likely couldn't catch all of them, there would still be some new babies but at a controlled level.

My brother and his wife have actually done that with feral cats in their neighborhood. It works well because it puts an end to unwanted kittens being born and the sterilized cats keep other cats that aren't sterilized from moving into the neighborhood. My brother and his wife are cat lovers and have several inside cats some of which were born to feral cats.

[juno jones]

37. Those wild horses

have been out of the breeding pool for a bit. Perhaps they carry genes that will benefit our domestic horses. Anyways, i have always disliked the repub formulation of 'kill 'em all'. Let them be safe. We might appreciate it in 10-15 years. Long May They Run!

[Rhiannon12866]

43. K&R. Great news! I've contacted my legislators on this countless times!

Thanks for posting this!:woohoo:

[cosmik debris]

59. So what do we do about feral pigs

Remember the outbreak of e-coli attributed to feral pigs invading a spinach field? Should we have one standard for ugly animals and a higher standard for cute animals?

[Coventina]

60. Of course not. All living creatures deserve respect and compassion.

I understand that feral pigs are a problem in some parts of the country. Not here in Arizona though, to my knowledge. So I am not as well-read on the subject as the horse issue, which is an Arizona problem.

We do have wild pigs here, though. They're called havelina.

[cosmik debris]

62. feral pigs are not Javelinas

But they are an important source of protein (like deer) for many people in the south eastern part of the country. So who gets the most compassion and respect? Hungry people or wild animals?

[Coventina]

63. I know that. That's why I said "wild pigs" not "feral pigs".

I don't think I'm understanding the thrust of your argument.

Are you saying that feral pigs are an important food source for people in the southeast? If so, I'm confused because your previous post seemed to indicate that they were a problem to be eradicated as being a source of crop contamination.

[cosmik debris]

66. Two thoughts at the same time confuse you?

How sad.

Feral pigs do provide a source of food for the rural poor in several southeastern states.

Feral pigs were blamed for the problems in the spinach field.

The point of this thread is that wild animals are being used for food while some want them protected and not used for food.

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line.

Do we kill wild animals that cause problems for our crops?

Do we kill animals for food?

What standard do we use to decide which animals to kill and which ones to protect?

[Coventina]

68. What is the deal with the insults?

Are you just trying to pick a fight?

[cosmik debris]

70. I'm trying to get answers

And the only answer I've gotten from you is a nebulous statement about respect and compassion. That's not helpful or meaningful.

Have a nice day.

[Coventina]

71. I'm very sorry that statements about "respect and compassion" anger you so.

:shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

69. Bible says something like "Man does not live by slaughtering & scarfing all living things alone."

But that was then. What did they know?

[Judi Lynn]

67. Maybe the plan is to send the poor people out to eat them all gone

before they can head for the spinach.


Burp!

[TX-RAT]

72. It's worse than that.

Feral hogs are taking over most of TX and the southern states. They destroy fences, crops and just about anything they touch. The up side is their very good to eat and much leaner than domestic hog's. They have large litters and bred all year round. If i see one on my place it dies. I don't want then anywhere near my place.

One correction. Javelinas are not pigs.

[Coventina]

73. True. They are different species.

I'm beginning to be sorry I brought them up.

I only mentioned them as the closest thing we have here to "feral pigs."

[TX-RAT]

74. No big deal.

I have both on my place. I truly hope thats as close as y'all ever get to a feral hog.

[jaybeat]

75. I don't eat animals. Period. But for those that do...

We have a "cultural norm," if you will, that it is acceptable to eat pigs (wild, feral, or domestic), deer, elk, cow, chicken, turkey, pheasant, duck, goose, buffalo, etc. (Not including fish or bugs for simplicity.) It is not generally acceptable to eat horse or burro, wild, feral, or domestic.

AFAIK, it has nothing to do with which is considered "ugly" and which is considered "cute". It is a cultural preference that dates back a long ways. I don't know, but I would tend to think that it stems from humans believing there is a "higher value" for equines as work animals as opposed to meat animals. Just like people wouldn't normally slaughter a productive dairy cow--she's worth more producing milk than meat.

Again, from my point of view, there's plenty of food for everyone, without having to kill anything. But that's not what this debate is about. It's about, "Are equines different?" Most people say yes, and this vote reflects that. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Judi Lynn]

64. I believe the people who voted to restore the law, in the House felt informed enough

to make an intelligent decision, and voted 277 to 137 to make this change.

It was sponsored by Democrats, and corrected a problem created by idiot asshole Republican Conrad Burns.

[StarryNite]

77. Ya know,

it doesn't really matter what kind of living creature you mention, somebody is going to want to kill it. Whether it be for food or because it's considered a nuisance or it wasn't here before some other creature or somebody doesn't like it's looks or they want to take something that it has or they just have the urge to go out and hunt something down and kill it. Mankind, and I use that term loosely, has screwed things up and now we need to fix it. That doesn't mean going out and shooting things when there are better options. Just look around at the sorry state of the earth right now. What do you think caused it? On it's own nature has a way of taking care of itself, thank you very much. But it has been knocked out of balance by humans. The fact that horses were not among the original animals to inhabit North America is not the problem. Nature is used to changes within reason. What do you think evolution is? It's a process of growth and development. The arrogance of man is appalling. Some of the very same people who squawk the loudest about the wild horses and burros destroying the land are the very same ones out on the very same land running their cattle or driving their quads tearing up the desert. Not to mention the number of houses going up, cutting into the beautiful Sonoran desert for instance, only to sit empty. Somebody on this thread had mentioned catching the horses and anesthetizing them, then shooting them in the head. Now wouldn't it be a lot more practical and humane to catch the stallions and geld them?