GM's 76-year reign as car sales leader ends

[Omaha Steve]

Source: LA Times

GM's 76-year reign as car sales leader ends
By Martin Zimmerman, Times Staff Writer
April 25, 2007

Since the Great Depression, General Motors Corp. has been the world's largest automaker, a symbol of American economic power.

But on Tuesday the Detroit company lost its crown to Toyota Motor Corp. of Japan, which has been relentlessly chipping away at GM's global dominance. And now, as Toyota pulls into the passing lane, GM will only appear smaller in its rearview mirror.

"I've been in this business for 37 years, and what I'm seeing now is the continuation of a trend that I've observed for 37 years," said Jim Hossack, a consultant with AutoPacific Inc. in Tustin. "Toyota is getting stronger and stronger, and the Detroit Three are getting weaker and weaker."

Barring a merger of major auto-producing rivals, it's unlikely that Toyota's leadership position will be seriously challenged anytime soon. Years of missteps by the U.S.-based automakers have allowed Toyota to grab the lead by efficiently producing high-quality cars that are a hit with motorists.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota25apr25,1,3981597.story?coll=la-headlines-business

[Webster Green]

1. Perhaps more Hummer commercials could help them..

Maybe update the Who's music on the Hummer commercials to something from 'Tommy'.

Fucking idiots!

[AlecBGreen]

2. lol

:shrug: Maybe some led zeppelin would help? Those youngsers like their rock and/or roll!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. you mean the "get yo' mom on" commercials didn't turn their fortunes?

[Digit]

3. I would love to buy an American made car

But my experience with my Dodge Caravan which first lost the transmission, then the engine (which I paid to have replace, then the transmission ONCE again taught me a lesson.

Before that, I had a Chevy Van which needed something earlier than it should...they tried to put it on me and failed.

Then it was my mother's experience with Pontiacs. She purchased a brand new vehicle and just after a year the transmission failed. I was only in high school at the the time and they tried to tell her her warranty was over. Young twit that I was, I told them a transmission should last alot longer than a year and got it replaced for free. They were going to charge her for it!
I don't know why she kept buying these pieces of crap, but it sure taught me something.
Actually, it taught her something. Just a year before she died, she love my little Honda Accord so much, she went out and purchased a used one for herself. Her old Buick Skylark would die whenever she made a turn (weird, I know) and since she had only one leg, I did not want her stranded on the side of a road. That damn Buick only had about 9000 miles on it when we sold it. Yes, it was ten years old, but she never drove the dang thing.

I can recall my cocky little German mother driving up my driveway with her sunroof open and beaming a huge smile. Of course she laid on the horn for effect. She was one spunky Dem! Dang I miss her!

[KamaAina]

20. Most Toyotas sold in the U.S. are made in Georgetown, KY

outside Lexington. Many other "foreign" makes are actually built here as well: Honda in Marysville, OH, for example.

[Roland99]

25. But built to much better quality standards and in much more efficient plants

Ever been in the newer section of the Toyota plant where the Avalon is made? Sounds like an American plant during shutdown. Incredibly quiet, clean, well-run.

[ryanmuegge]

27. Where most workers make $7.50 an hour for working their asses off.

The Toyota plants are predominately in the south for a reason. Let's not romanticize Toyota too much. For most, these jobs aren't much better than McDonald's jobs in terms of pay (by and large; clearly, there are exceptions from plant to plant). I wish the American companies would make much needed progress in the area of fuel efficiency standards.

My mother works for supplier to the big three. I agree that the plants, from what I've heard, are more efficient and clean. Toyota's parts are much more interchangable between models, from what I understand, thus keeping costs lower. It's the little things like that which add up to a more profittable, efficient company. I know Japanese cars have a reputation for much higher quality, but this is no longer the case for the most part. If you can find a '92 and earlier Toyota, you'll notice a pretty significant quality difference, though. I hope the American automakers turn it around and invest in more in our country in the process.

[durtee librul]

31. Please google Toyota and Honda and see just how 'good'

their quality REALLY is......and get educated. They just don't publicize their recalls as loud and our wonderful mainstream media downplays it as well. I work as a quality professional in the automotive industry and see all the trade inside mags and what you read and perceive in media ain't all what is truly happening in the bowels of this industry.

First, folks, whine all you want about the big 3....like it or not, they and their unions are responsible for a lot of the life styles you all enjoy now...and since they are 'failing' notice the way your insurance is being eroded and all your health benefits and how most of you now work 2 jobs (maybe more) to support your families just to keep a roof over your head and food on the table? And for all of you who disagree, go ahead. I'm not getting roped into any damn arguments over economics.

So go the unions, so goes the country and if you want to argue, argue with facts not emotion. They set the standard for a lot of us, like it or not. Be jealous and say what you will, but that's the way it is and I don't give a rats ass if you agree or not. If you think for one minute it's 'fun' to be tied to an assembly line doing the same thing for 9 to 12 hours, you are welcome to try. Truth is, a lot of folks can't cut it.

Sorry, the bottom line, they can build all the dang factories they want here - the money STILL goes outside this country and it is not OUR manufacturing plant - it just happens to sit on good ol' USA soil.....and I have been in many plants and I am here to tell you as an employee of one of the Big 3, our plants for the most part are just as good and just as competitive as Honda and Toyota. Their pr is better, their cars ain't. You been hornswoggled.

Why can't we have fair and equal trade - well don't go there. That just opens another can of worms.

Keep your rice burners and when you don't have a job or insurance or good medical care, eat your car....or live in it.

I buy what I build and I am damn proud of American iron problems and all.

[ryanmuegge]

36. Yeah, too bad I agreed with everything you said. Save your self-righteous rant for an appropriate

post if you wish to post it as a response.

You posted basically the exact same thing I said.

My family's been in the automotive business for three generations. I know something about cars. You're right: they just don't publicize their recalls.

The point of the original post was: a) yeah, Toyota and Honda create a lot of jobs in this country, but they don't pay their workers shit; b) the quality gap has been closed since the mid-90s.

[Chovexani]

57. "Rice burners"?

:wow: :crazy:

[susanna]

58. I have some more to add.

Disclaimer: I'm a white-collar worker in the domestic auto industry.

Anyway, dirtee librul, I loved your post. I would add that I find it absolutely amazing at DU - DEMOCRATIC Underground - that people completely piss on the UAW and other unions. Some of these unions, in fact, FUND our party's existence during elections. Does no one on this board GET that? Without a strong union counterbalance to corporations, the Democratic Party will become (I fear) just a memory.

What's funny is that Japanese workers have pretty strong unions in their own countries. It's one of the reasons Toyota built over here in anti-union states, IMHO. LOL - they sure pulled one over on the American consumer! Coming to these shores was the Asian companies' union-busting tactic. Unfortunately, the Big 3 can't do likewise, because the reciprocal countries limit our ability to build plants, ship and/or sell overseas. The U.S., on the other hand, opens our borders as wide as possible...because we're for free trade! Yay us! :sarcasm:

[Psephos]

63. You said what many at DU refuse to believe

The key word being "believe." Because it is a matter of faith, not fact. I don't blame you for your frustration. Rant away, you've earned the right.

I do, however, blame all those who drive cars made somewhere besides the U.S. The loudest critics are usually the least-informed. The money they pay to overseas companies could flowing into jobs here. There's no more tangible way to fight offshoring of U.S. car assembly jobs than to buy a car made here. Double bonus if you buy one from an American-owned company.

The critics always have a stock answer, expressed sardonically: "American companies only make gas hog SUVs," or "American quality sucks," or "I refuse to give my money to companies that mistreat their employees so badly"... When you ask them how long since they actually set foot in a Big Three dealership, or if they can even name three models made by the Big Three, or if they've read any comparison articles in an independent auto magazine, or if they know which companies have the worst recall records, or of all global manufacturers, which companies pay their workers the highest wages, etc., etc., they usually change the subject. Because the actual answer is "no."

It astounds me that progressives won't support union labor and stable middle-class income with their purchase dollars. For at least half of these pseudo-progressives, the real truth is that it would hurt their prog street-cred to be seen in an American car. In other words, it's about style. An ego thing. I guess it really is true that you are what you drive.

Keep up the good work, dirtee librul. My Chrysler's parked right outside. Someday, when I replace it, I hope part of my purchase payment ends up in your paycheck.

Peace.

[AdHocSolver]

65. I have owned cars for over 40 years, both American brands and Japanese brands...

and I have had much better experience with the Japanese branded cars (two of which were manufactured here in the States.) I have also done a lot of my own car repair and I know the mechanics of how they work. I have also repaired or advised friends and relatives with their car issues covering many makes and models over the years.
I have to say that the Japanese cars held up much better and had fewer problems than the American cars. I attribute this to better design and engineering. The American built Japanese cars were just as good as the ones built in Japan. It wasn't a labor issue.
I would agree with you that the labor movement is responsible for our large middle class and our heretofore high standard of living. However, I also blame the union members who voted for and elected Ronald Reagan in the 1980's for the gutting of the trade union movement. Reagan was the major cause of the downturn of the labor movement when he fired all the air traffic controllers in the 1980s.
Just a few years ago, as it was closing plants in the U.S., General Motors spent a billion and a half dollars to build a Buick plant in China.
The technology has been around for years to build fuel-efficient cars. General Motors and Ford, in particular, preferred to build old-technology gas-guzzlers. Now that many Americans have found "happiness" with their gas-sipping Japanese cars, you expect them to go back to buying GM and Ford gas-hogs when gas is hovering around $3.00 a gallon? The American car companies have been happy to put next quarters profits above long-term viability in the auto markets and cost-conscious Americans have gotten the message and responded as enlightened consumers.
When Toyota, or Honda, or Nissan, or Mazda use American-made parts and American labor to build their cars, that money stays here in the U.S. and enables the U.S. economy. When G.M. or Ford build cars in Mexico or China, any profit they make comes back to the pockets of the wealthy fatcats who run that company. It doesn't help the U.S. economy in any way.

[pokercat999]

69. I don't know much about the production end of the

automobile business, but I've been working in "aftermarket" repair shops since 1975. For most of those years the Japanese have built (dollar for dollar, pound for pound) the most reliable cars in the world.

My belief is that the problems with American Vehicle manufactures lay at the feet of management. The rank and file American worker wants to produce the best product available, cost be damned. The American auto executive wants to build the most profitable vehicle ever, quality be damned. The American buyer wants the most value for their $$, country of origin be damned.

The Japanese just filled the request of the American buyer. Now weather they did it "fairly" or not, is a horse of another color.

[Roland99]

33. Looks like $30/hr to me

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=80833

[ryanmuegge]

40. "Toyota would not provide a US average."

Hmm...I wonder why. Refusing to give a measure of central tendency for the aggregate of US workers tells me that that's a bullshit PR statistic.

Don't kid yourself.

Why are Toyota plants predominately located in anti-union southern states? The answer is obvious.

Around here (in rural Illinois), the parts suppliers are threatening to send everyone's jobs to the south. Why? Because the wages are significantly lower for the same fucking work. The managmenet tells them that straight up. You're fooling yourself.


"GM is looking to slash labor costs again, using as its model the low-wage, nonunion plants Toyota operates in the southern US.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/apr2007/toyo-a26.shtml

[Roland99]

41. Beats having them go south of the border completely.

[ryanmuegge]

42. Yeah, I agree.

It wouldn't be a problem if the Southern states would stand up for their people.

Toyota doesn't mind going to Canada and paying decent wages, it seems. It's just a matter, I guess, of what state governments will let them get away with.

[Roland99]

43. Well, they have to remain competitive. Paying a line worker $90k/yr with bonuses is madness

and that's what's been killing the US automakers.

[ryanmuegge]

44. Again, I agree. There has to be a middle ground between the two extremes, though.

As much as I support and value unions, some of them did get a bit out of control in their demands at one time.

Hell, man, I can go do telemarketing around here and make more money a year (and get better benefits) than people doing hard labor jobs are in the south.

My mom's side is from Arkansas, when they come up to visit and talk about how much people are paid down there for killing themselves in a labor-intensive job, we're always in shock. It seems to get worse and worse every year.

[Roland99]

45. But what about differences in cost of living?

I make a pretty damn good salary where I'm at (Louisville) but if I made this and was living in CT or SoCal, I'd be living in a shack apartment!

[ryanmuegge]

51. I'm from a town of 3,100. $8.00 isn't enough to live on around here.

I can't even imagine what it'd be like in a town of 60-70K, or especially a big city.

Of course, we just had a 100% electric rate increase.

[AdHocSolver]

66. Paying a bunch of executives $5- to 10,000,000/yr each + bonuses + stock options,...

supporting a private jet plane fleet to rival that of any airline, and on, and on, doesn't help either. The fact is that worker pay is NOT the major cause of these companies losing money. If GM and Ford built cars that people wanted to buy, they wouldn't be losing money. Blaming worker pay for their problems is avoiding the real issue which is management incompetence and greed. The worker who builds the cars is contributing to the bottom line. Most of the executives at the top just suck up the profits; if they disappeared, there would be little revenue lost.

American executives make significantly more money than their Japanese or European counterparts. A few years ago, when Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler, the Chrysler CEO was paid something like ten times more than the Daimler CEO. This in spite of the fact that Daimler was making money and Chrysler was losing money.

If the U.S. had a reasonable minimum wage, then the workers in the South would make more money, whether unionized or not. There is a prevailing wage rate in any specific geographical area and companies will take that into account when determining pay scale.

A study was completed a few years ago that shows that the "average" Japanese worker now earns more than the "average" American worker.

[Roland99]

67. Good point. But I did see last night that the GM CEO is taking big a cut in pay.

but all the execs should do the same.

[bjb]

48. wages

If Toyota pays their workers such low wages, why are their vehicles so expensive? I don't shop at Walmart and I refuse to buy a foreign vehicle.

[ryanmuegge]

50. The market allows them to sell their products for that price.

They've got a reputation for quality (even though, again, that gap has closed).

[michreject]

52. It's called "dumping"..... ..........nt

[susanna]

56. One problem with the interchangeable parts you speak of...

...when you get a recall, you go straight down the tubes. It's 500,000 vs. 20,000 vehicles recalled.

Actually, the domestics found this out the hard way - they were the first ones to consolidate their parts to smaller numbers of suppliers. I'm willing to bet that Toyota and Honda will learn, in their own time, how risky that interchangability is.

On edit: clarity

[treestar]

37. Gee, I wonder if anyone will feel guilty for stealing those jobs

from the Japanese.

[pokercat999]

68. And BMW makes/assembles their entire worldwide

production of Z-4s and X-5s in Spartenburg, SC. I've been through the plant, seems like a good place to work. The engines and transmissions are imported from Germany but most everything else is from US suppliers I believe.

[susanna]

55. Honest question to you...

what years were these failures? I ask this sincerely. Thanks.

[Delphinus]

4. I *think*

it's their own fault. They continue to roll out these big, monstrous things and don't take into account the needs (or wants) of most consumers. Toyota builds a good product that has a resale value GM, Ford, and Chrysler would die for.

There's a part of me that's sad because it really is the end of an era.

[superconnected]

5. Yesterday I was told the story of Huffy bikes and where they went

apparently they opened a shop in China and the Chinese stole their designs and made them cheaper, then sold them back to America. Huffy went out of business.

GM sold out America long ago. So some company in Japan beat them to being number one. Guess what GM, that's called "good business." Isn't that the term you used when you closed most of your American plants and opened up plants in Mexico.

I wonder if Toyota is going to take their factorys out of Japan and move to china. Bet it wouldn't happen without some pretty stiff import tarrifs if they sell them back to Japan.

yet still, Toyota is now number 1.

Go Toyota.

[Worst Username Ever]

22. RE Huffy:

The story of the gallon pickle jar and Huffy bikes, with the usual suspect. Slightly different, according to Huffy's former President.

http://www.fastcompany.com/online/77/walmart.html

[Joanne98]

6. I think they did this on purpose...Build big cars until they go bankrupt.

Then they can get rid of their unions! Bastards!

[burrowowl]

7. What is good for GM is good for the Nation

Is it now what is good for Toyota is good for the Nation?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

8. I will never buy another "American" car

My last two cars were both complete pieces of shit, meanwhile my aunt just took her 1983 Toyota off the road because some crackhead threw a brick through the window to steal a bag of icing sugar.

[Roland99]

16. GM just sells outdated and bland vehicles and I, like you, will never buy "American" again.

I've owned Chrysler/Dodge almost exclusively (a Ford sprinkled in there a bit) and now have a Mazda 6. The fit and finish and quality is so much better than anything I've owned before. 65k miles in less than 3 1/2 years and all I've had to do is change the oil and just put some new tires on it recently. It's just now needing front brakes whereas on my Chryslers, I'd have been on my 2nd set and headed for a 3rd by this many miles.

[susanna]

61. Just curious - do you have a MazdaSpeed 6?

That's an important consideration to me based on your post.

[alarimer]

54. I never found an American car that I wanted to drive

I was looking for a small car, preferably a hatchback. That leaves basically (in American cars) the Pontiac Vibe (which I admit I never drove though I was not crazy about the Toyota Matrix and they are basically the same vehicle) and the Dodge caliber. Dodges are the worst pieces of shit on the planet so I didn't even bother testing it. We have Dodge trucks at work and they are so bad. Shit falls off them; they have more problems than any other make of truck we have. Just shit.

So I bought a Mazda 3, a beautiful little fun car.

[Blue_Tires]

10. sad but not unexpected

hopefully that will motivate people at the Ren Center to shake things up and try to retake the top spot...Maybe it will help GM to pull back and let Toyota feed on the excess until they become fat and complacent

[susanna]

72. It's not fat and complacent at all.

Some companies, and in my opinion Toyota is one of them, do better when bringing up the rear - they have never "led the pack."

GM has had to deal with a target on their back since the 30s-40s. Now Toyota wears the target. Nothing will ever be the same; that's true. I hope, for Toyota's sake, they can handle the incredibly jacked up production they will need to have to remain number one; their smaller-scale production system is untried at that particular (high impact) level for any length of time.

So goes the life of the leader...

[krispos42]

11. 1989 Olds Regency

172,000 miles on it. Everything in the engine and tranny is original. I think the radiator and heater core are original as well. I think, but am unable to confirm, that the water pump is finally starting to leak slightly. As far as I can tell it's the original alternator and other accessories as well.

Gets about 24 MPG, starts right up, shifts smoothly and as promptly as the comfort-tuned tranny will let it. Burns little if any oil, leaks no transmission fluid, A/C still works just fine.

Yeah, it's got problems. The steering column is loose, although the linkage to the rack-and-pinion steering is solid. The headliner is falling off. The (lone) cupholder finally broke off two weeks ago, although to be fair, the 32- and- 44-ounce drink cup for cars had not been developed 18 years ago. The driver's door panel is torn, and I have to re-rivet it back or something. And the windshield leaked badly when I first got the car two years ago. Some bathroom silicone fixed that, but previous waterlogging has rotted out the wiring to the dome and map lights in the car. And the windows literally crawl up and down. Probably needs lube.

My previous domestic car was a 1987 Thunderbird. 255,000 miles before the head gasket blew. A week later, it was, um, reposessed by an angry parent during a dispute and spend the next several years sitting in a driveway. When the car was donated to one of those charity organizations, it still started up on the first try. And everything in that engine and tranny was original as well.

Man, I liked the lines of that T-Bird, too. <sigh>

Will I drive the Olds a day longer than necessary? Nope. I have developed a certain grim respect for its durability, I like the fact that the cops don't seem to see me in it, and I enjoy the fact that people in much newer cars never seem to feel inclined to risk cutting me off in traffic. But I'll have first crack at a car in the family in the next few months, and I'll be trading in my 19-year-old Olds for a 5-year-old Subaru. Hopefully. It's simply too good of a deal to pass up. And then, with luck, I'll have the Subie for a decade or more.

Anyway, that's MY experience with domestics. Just thought I'd bring up a counterpoint to the seemingly endless Big Three bashing that goes on here.

[HughBeaumont]

14. 1997 Cavalier - 225,000 miles. SAME engine. SAME clutch.

Serious as a heart attack. The only thing it needs right now is a tune up and the brakes replaced, which I can do through a friend out of his garage for 1/4 of what the shops charge. There's honestly little difference in driving quality from when I bought it. No jerkiness and no stalls.

Wife's 1992 Nissan Sentra - replaced the exhaust three times, replaced 3/4 of the steering system, repeated brake jobs, repeated muffler replacements, three clutches. She got rid of it at 150,000 miles and got a 2003 Corolla.

Buying foreign doesn't automatically guarantee you a marathon man.

[okieinpain]

17. my family is all nissan. except for my dodge truck 2004 which the

transmission is starting to slip on. the only reason I could slip the dodge by her is because it was so cheap. I'm sad about gm, you know they will try and use this to break the unions.

[krispos42]

18. Yeah, my parents spent a fair amount on the '89 Maxima

Not tons, but a fair amount. It wasn't a lemon or anything. I think my Dad had them put Bilstein shocks on it once for some reason... like HE'S a speed demon... :rofl:

AFAIK the engine and tranny worked just find though.

USE CASTROL SYNTEC!!!!!

[Vinca]

12. I've been Toyota loyal for more than 20 years - right after the new GM

car I bought stalled a mile from the dealership and had to be towed. You can run Toyotas for decades if you want to. That's a rarity for an American car (unless you're a mechanic).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. R.I.P.

Rust In Peace.

[Zandor]

15. Pontiac Transport, 150k, orignal engine & tranny

Never a major (over $1,000) repair.

There was a big quality gap at one point. It closed considerably as the Big Three lost market share to other automakers and had to wake up and face the music.

Let's not be too harsh. It's the Big Three that pay top wages and benefits to their workers. They made bigger vehicles in response to the market and in order to bankroll that pay and benefits. They've been infinitely kinder to unions than most other employers in this environment.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. The Japanese cap their CEO pay. GM doesn't.

In 2005, the CEO of GM made $8.5 million. That's 170 times the pay of a worker making $50k.

The average Japanese CEO makes 11 times the pay of a factory floor worker. Or $550k.

Greed and short-sightedness have relegated GM to the scrap heap of history.

[NickB79]

19. No one could have predicted this

I mean, who would have thought it would be unprofitable to sell 15-mpg SUV's in a time of $3/gallon gasoline? :sarcasm:

[susanna]

59. Yet American consumers are the ones

who drove the over-heated market for retarded SUVs that never left pavement. Funny enough, the Japanese barrelled right on in to that market; now they're touting full-size SUVs, CUVs and monster trucks of their own - lots of V8s to spare! But no one ever mentions that - why? Listen - the Japanese knew where the money was too, people; just look at their entire line-up here, not just the fuel-efficient vehicles they tout.

There are a ton of folks who side with the consumers that think the domestics should be able to pull a low-mileage-hybrid-flex-fuel vehicle out of our ass while our market - swear to everything holy - is still whining for the utility of their monstrous SUV. It would be a laugh riot if it weren't so damn surreal.

update: spelling

[ellie]

21. Well, they shouldn't have

helped kill the electric car!

[Doctor_J]

23. Maybe they'll get to work on a hybrid?

Nah.

[Bombero1956]

26. lets see who makes gas hogs

Too many folks give the Japanese a bye with regard to gas guzzlers. Lets compare shall we?

Ford Explorer 2WD
8 cyl, 4.6 L, Automatic (6 speed), Regular 15 21

Ford Explorer 4WD
8 cyl, 4.6 L, Automatic (6 speed), Regular 14 20

Chevrolet Suburban 1500 2WD
8 cyl, 5.3 L, Automatic (4 speed), Regular 15 21

Chevrolet Suburban 1500 4WD
8 cyl, 6 L, Automatic (4 speed), Regular 14 18

Dodge Magnum AWD
8 cyl, 5.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 17 24

Infiniti FX45 AWD
8 cyl, 4.5 L, Auto(S5), Premium 14 18

Infiniti QX56 4WD
8 cyl, 5.6 L, Automatic (5 speed), Premium 13 18

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD
8 cyl, 5.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 15 20

Jeep Commander 4WD
8 cyl, 5.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 14 18

Lexus GX 470
8 cyl, 4.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Premium 15 19

Lincoln Navigator 2WD
8 cyl, 5.4 L, Automatic (6 speed), Regular 13 18

Mercury Mountaineer 4WD
8 cyl, 4.6 L, Automatic (6 speed), Regular 14 20

Nissan Armada 4WD
8 cyl, 5.6 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 13 18

Toyota 4Runner 4WD
8 cyl, 4.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 16 19

Toyota Land Cruiser Wagon 4WD
8 cyl, 4.7 L, Automatic (5 speed), Regular 13 17

[tabasco]

32. Now let's take a look at who makes the best mileage cars:

1. Honda Civic
2. Toyota Prius
3. Toyota Corolla
4. Honda Civic
5. Mini Cooper
6. Toyota Yaris
7. Honda Civic
8. Honda Fit
9. Toyota Camry Hybrid
10 Chevy Aveo

Models listed twice are different engines.

[Doctor_J]

39. Thanks, tabasco

I never said the Japanese don't make gas hogs. I said Detroit doesn't make hybrids. Even a Republican should be able to figure out the difference between those statements.

[Bombero1956]

53. This is what I drive

and I can sleep at night knowing that nobody is being laid off because of what I drive.

[NickB79]

47. You forgot the Scion xA

At 38 mpg highway, it bumps the Chevy Aveo (made in South Korea, btw) right off the list.

[susanna]

62. OK, cars.

Any figures for best mileage SUVs (which are still a major sales player)?

[susanna]

60. Thank you to infinity. n/t

[StarryNite]

28. Does anybody else feel

that with all the outsourcing and loss of jobs America is on life support?

[Irreverend IX]

29. Where's crazy GM guy?

Shouldn't he be all over this thread?

[TommyO]

30. GM's initial quality and long-term reliability is way up

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet are all at, or above, industry average for initial quality (per J.D. Power) while Saturn, Pontiac and Buick are all slightly below (Hummer, as expected, is dead-last among GM's nameplates). Industry average is for 124 problems per 100 vehicles sold, Saturn is at 129/100, Pontiac at 133, Buick at 134, Hummer is last at 171.

Excluding Hummer, which brands perform lower than Buick? Mitsubishi, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Scion, BMW, Subaru, Mazda, MINI, Jeep, Saab, Suzuki, Volkswagen, Isuzu and Land Rover.

What's unfortunate is that during the days of profit/cost-cutting they put out some pretty crappy products and are paying the price now - big time! Image is everything.

Both Ford and GM have made huge strides in both initial quality and long-term reliability and do have some desirable vehicles, but need to shift their reliance from SUVs (and their only slightly more efficient cousins, the crossovers) to cars, even wagons.

I'm seriously considering an Aura XR as my next car, since I won't be buying for a few years, it gives me plenty of time to research it's reliability over the next 36 months.

[kwassa]

46. I have a Chevrolet Malibu Maxx

I had an '04 with 46,000 miles on it when some guy in a van hit a pool of snow and water on the local interstate, and took a sharp left turn across several lanes of the freeway. I hit him doing freeway speeds. My car was totalled, air bags deployed, and I walked away unscratched and uninjured.

With the settlement we went out and bought another one, an '05, because we couldn't find another wagon we liked better. It came loaded with bells and whistles for the price the other cars start at without options. We test drove the first car against both Passats and Subarus, and the Maxx was more car. It also gets 30 mph and better in freeway driving, great for a 6 cylinder. It looks small on the outside, feels huge in the inside. Extended wheelbase gives it huge leg room in the back seat. It also has great off-the-line acceleration.

There is no other car out there that does the things that we need a car to do like this one.

[susanna]

71. I am so glad to hear you're okay.

I think, as an automotive employee, that the worst thing I ever have to hear is that a vehicle was not protective of its passengers. That is something none of us ever want to hear. I am so glad that your vehicle helped you walk away from an awful accident - seriously.

It's always nice when someone really likes a vehicle. One thing many folks forget is that thousands of people -- just like the folks that drive them -- try to design and build cars that will do what needs to be done, be it safety or horsepower (there's a market out there for that) or mileage.

I am glad you are okay, and I think you must have picked the right vehicle for you. I'm very happy for that.

[susanna]

70. All the domestics have improved with BIG strides in the past few years...

But don't waste your breath; these folks owned a GM/Ford years ago and have decided they'll never get in one again, even though the fit/finish, reliability and everything else has shot through the roof.

I understand, at a certain level, why that is. It will take time to change perceptions. One thing I would do is to encourage folks to at least test drive a domestic in the same class as the foreign makes they are looking at; just for giggles, if they still don't take the domestics seriously.

I bought, for example, a Mercury Milan several months ago, with some trepidation - I've heard the domestic horror stories. To be fair, it isn't old enough for the long-term reliability studies, but that thing is absolutely-freaking-beautiful. I love it. It handles like a European car, especially in slalom; very tight, nicely balanced. I only have the 4-cyl, yet that thing is pretty peppy and quick to gain highway speed. Love it!

It gets an average of 24 MPG, highway/city mix. It's available in both manual (that's the one I wanted) and automatic transmission (that's the one I ended up with because I had a right side shoulder surgery recently...waaaaaah). The interior is practically noiseless, except when I really go hard out of the gate; the engine is a little noisy then. The V6 doesn't have that problem from what I hear.

The thing I most want to say about it is that it feels NOTHING like the domestics of my younger years (read: the Crap Era). This thing is solid and beautifully appointed for an amazing price. I know I'm biased in the sense I work for the domestics, but truth be told I wouldn't say good things about any vehicle without believing it. I would just ask that folks at least take the time to do a side-by-side comparison before dismissing GM and Ford out of hand. Try Chrysler too, but they're pretty much a German conglomerate these days, so I sometimes have to regrettably leave them out of the domestic bunch. :-(


on edit: subject

[susanna]

75. Same thing with Ford...their stats are way up on quality.

I have a personal story to share on that note.

All these auto threads tickle me in a way. There are still a boatload of people, who haven't set foot in a domestic car in years, that still think it's relevant to bash them like all the "cool" kids do. It's semi-funny, but then it's sad, too. Don't get me wrong - the domestics have no one but themselves to blame for that state of affairs, but I do think that U.S. consumers could consider re-educating themselves. It's a two-way street to keep good jobs here.

I drove an import (VW Fox) for about 10 years. Great little car; I called it (and still do - we're restoring it) my personal go-cart. When the time came for a new one, I thought through it long and hard. The test drives I did - VW and the domestics, mostly (because nothing Toyota/Honda have appeal to me at all) really opened my eyes. I ended up with a Mercury Milan (which was my last "on paper" choice). My test drive sealed the deal -- the very same day. Admittedly, it's only six months at this point, but that car blew away my perceptions of the domestics. I keep looking for issues, but keep finding...none. I am beginning to wonder what's up, actually, from all the anti-domestic rants I see here and elsewhere. The car handles like a dream; tight but nimble, very European-feeling. The similar class VW I test drove (Jetta) felt - get this - clunky in comparison. Yep. I said that. And I know cars. I've worked on them all my life, and work in the industry, as I've mentioned. I have to say I am the ultimate cynic, working there, but this car? Well it just rules.

The car is about to go on a 4,000+ mile journey through most of Canada, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, upper New York State, and back through Canada, into Detroit. I'll post how it doesin real world use -- if anyone cares.

[freethought]

34. I say GM in bankruptcy in 5 years! Anyone care to wager? n/t

[susanna]

74. If you are looking forward to it...

...or for that matter Ford's bankruptcy, think again. If both those behemoths go down, you're looking at a 2nd Great Depression. GM and Ford and Chrysler employ FAR more than the Japanese can ever hope to.

Good luck on your wish for doom. I'm not one of your cheerleaders; I think you're nuts.

[lpbk2713]

35. That's what GMC gets for teaming up with that loser Hannity.

They get no sympathy from me.

[Selatius]

38. The senior executives at GM have themselves to blame for their fucking mistakes.

In the 1990s, they pushed big into SUVs because per vehicle they produced the greatest profit margins, but when the oil shock hit, they were brought to their knees because they neglected their small, mid-size, and full-size sedans.

They concentrated too much on short-term profits, and they neglected long-term viability as a result. They should've put more money into research and development to improve the manufacturing processes of cars to increase quality and durability, and they should've anticipated the rise of hybrids.

Instead of paying for their mistakes, these executives have simply turned around and pinned the blame on workers...by firing them...by the tens of thousands. If anything, the only people who deserve to be sacked are the executives of the company for failing. Perhaps GM should've fired executives and slashed their compensation packages instead.

[durtee librul]

49. They did, they sacked LaSorda

and now he's at Chrysler. Go figure.

That top bunch of car execs are like bloddsuckers - they just keep breeding and feeding off of each other.

They all oughta have to work like the rest of us do and I don't care what anyone says, you can't tell me that sitting on your arse in some plush office 'negotiating' all day on the phone or video conferencing is a tough job, like say, doing the same thing over and over again on a moving assembly line for 9-12 hours. Sure, they have stress...but who doesn't now days?

They are ALL overpaid and I agree with a previous poster - they should be compensated just like the japanese are - then we'd see how long the LaSorda's and Eatons and Lutzes would stick around.....they'd be bankers instead.

And one more thing, to the poster who claimed I was on a self righteous rant - bite me. I was agreeing with everything you said...don't be so touchy. We all know what the problems are - and those of us who have been and are lucky enough to work for automakers understand a lot better than those who never had and just want to sit back and criticize.

Again, I just wish some of you who drive your foreign cars could see what I do on a daily basis and that is that your parts are made in the same supplier factory with the same tooling that American iron is. AND good golly miss molly, even the robots in the assembly plants are made and programmed by the same vendor.

[susanna]

73. Dirtee librul, I love you.

I just sat through a bullshit meeting with bunches of dipshits who have only managed to run a company INTO the ground.

Luckily, the meeting ended upbeat; a very high level VP called the usual suspects on their bullshit. It's turning, I swear; there are people sweating in my company's halls. I am 110%, uber-happy about that. These people need to just GO AWAY and let those of us who care about our product (mobile machinery) do the real work. Just saying.

And your point about the vendors? LOL straight on. A lot of the parts are shared between US and Japanese companies; the suppliers find ways to make the tooling fit both. The average customer don't know that happy horsecrap, do they?

When people tell me their Japanese car is better, and I know for a FACT that they share domestic components, I have to just shake my head. It's astounding.

[fujiyama]

64. You're mostly correct

but the puzzling thing about GM is they HAVE the technology - they just don't implement it, or not well enough, at least domestically.