Japanese Mayor Shot Dead (Nagasaki)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CBS

The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki, a prominent anti-nuclear activist, was shot by a yakuza gangster on Tuesday, and news reports said he later died of his wounds.

Mayor Iccho Ito was shot twice late Tuesday outside the city's main train station by a gangster reportedly disgruntled over damage to his car at a public works site, according to Nagasaki prefectural (state) police official Rumi Tsujimoto.

Kyodo News agency and national broadcaster NHK said Ito died of his wounds early Wednesday.

Footage from the southwestern city of Nagasaki showed several officers wrestling a man to the ground and pushing him into a police car, and an ambulance leaving the scene as police shouted for bystanders to get out of the way.


Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/17/world/main2695446.shtml

[JuniperLea]

1. Gun control in Japan is the most stringent in the democratic world. n/t

[INDIA]

4. That was my thought too. But overall, FAR FAR fewer gun deaths and generic murders

than in the US. I'm pro-gun, but I see the other side of the argument too.

[JuniperLea]

7. Calmer culture?

More serious? Higher suicide rate though. Interesting though path here...

[ghostsofgiants]

8. Your point exactly?

[JuniperLea]

13. I hardly think it could be more clear

You're joking, right? You really can't imagine what that might mean? Honestly? That's too bad.



Stringent gun laws do not keep all the bad guys bare handed.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. The Yakuza is allowed to exist in Japan

the government has not tried to eradicate them, but instead allows them their place in the world.
That's the problem.

[JuniperLea]

22. I don't like imposing cultural thoughts on others

If we were to do that, we'd have to tell Blacks to quit writing songs that call women "hos"... and we'd have to tell people in other countries that wearing a burka is demeaning to women... and we'd have to say something to those Neo-Christians who want their girls to take loyalty oaths.

I've given up telling others how to change their culture for Lent.

[ghostsofgiants]

27. Do you even know what the Yakuza is?

[JuniperLea]

28. Of course!

It's a ritualistic ethnic Japanese criminal society, what we would call "The Mob".

They consider themselves to be part of the culture, which is why the Japanese allow them to remain! Duh!

[ghostsofgiants]

32. So organized crime syndicates are okay if they'e part of the culture?

Law enforcement shouldn't be concerned with shutting them down?

[JuniperLea]

34. Did you read my post at all?

Of course I think they should be shut down! And I think women should not be called hos in rap songs... and I think women should not be forced to wear burkas or be circumcised or be forced to give a virginity oath either. The problem with all of the above is that people argue that it's part of the culture! I can't even say that black on black name calling is a bad thing because I'm not black and I can't relate! :eyes:

I have no idea what it's like to be Japanese, so they need to sort their cultural differences out themselves.

[ghostsofgiants]

38. Once again, your thought process makes my brain bleed.

NewYorkerfromMass said that the problem is that the Yakuza is allowed to exist in Japan. In other words, the Japanese government allows it to exist. His point was that the Japanese government shouldn't allow it to exist. (IE. The Japanese should sort it out themselves.) He's not talking about the US not allowing it to exist or anything like that.

[JuniperLea]

40. That's not what I'm saying!

"His point was that the Japanese government shouldn't allow it to exist."


I'm saying that, much like the other cultural things I noted, it's not our call. We cannot even say that the Japanese government shouldn't allow it to exist! Can't even suggest it! It's their culture, their business.

Honestly.

[ghostsofgiants]

41. It's not a cultural issue, it's a crime issue.

The existence of organized crime is a problem. I don't see where culture comes into play.

[JuniperLea]

43. Oh. Good. Lord.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Ask yourself why the Japanese government takes such a hands-off stance on this!

[ghostsofgiants]

44. There could be any number of reasons.

I'm not a scholar of the relationship between the Japanese government and the Yakuza. If you want to point me to some reading material on the subject, I'd be glad to read up.

[JuniperLea]

45. Start here...

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/gang/yakuza/1.html

snip...

The origin of the yakuza is a matter of some debate. Some feel that its members are descendents of the 17th-century kabuki-mono (crazy ones), outlandish samurai who reveled in outlandish clothing and hair styles, spoke in elaborate slang, and carried unusually long swords in their belts. The kabuki-mono were also known as hatamoto-yakko (servants of the shogun). During the Tokugawa era, an extended period of peace in Japan, the services of these samurai were no longer needed, and so they became leaderless ronin (wave men). Without the guidance of a strong hand, they eventually shifted their focus from community service to theft and mayhem.

Modern yakuza members refute this theory and instead proclaim themselves to be the descendents of the machi-yokko (servants of the town) who protected their villages from the wayward hatamoto-yakko. The official yakuza history portrays the group's ancestors as underdog folk heroes who stood up for the poor and the defenseless, just as Robin Hood helped the peasants of medieval England.

snip...

But despite their garish style, the yakuza cannot be taken lightly. In Japan there are 110,000 active members divided into 2,500 families. By contrast, the United States has more than double the population of Japan but only 20,000 organized crime members total, and that number includes all criminal organizations, not just the Italian-American Mafia.


This is telling of the acceptance in society, as part of the culture...

snip...

The yakuza's influence is more pervasive and more accepted within Japanese society than organized crime is in America, and the yakuza have a firm and long-standing political alliance with Japan's right-wing nationalists. In addition to the typical vice crimes associated with organized crime everywhere, the yakuza are well ensconced in the corporate world. Their influence extends beyond Japanese borders and into other Asian countries, and even into the United States.


I'm betting you can Google tons of stuff...

[rayofreason]

57. I remember a "Sopranos" episode...

...where Meadow is explaining to her boyfriend the "cultural reasons" for some violence that he saw at a construction site where he was working and a bunch of the mob guys were collecting money. I really wish I could find the text of her remarks - a classic rationalization of brutal behavior.

I, for one, take a dim view of burkas, Yakuza finger chopping, or the omerta of the cosa nostra. If that is someone's culture, it must change. If we could enforce a ban on slavery (and, yes, it was the West that did that), we can impose other codes of behavior as well. If imposing our standards on others is wrong, then we should have no objection to an open slave trade, especially as some Islamic clerics have ruled that slavery is consistent with Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Slavery

[Psephos]

60. I remember that episode, and you're right, it was a classic rationalization

Now I'm going to go find that script.

Meanwhile, you've drawn out the general principle from the particulars quite nicely.

An aside: how is it, ray, that you *always* have 563 posts to your credit? Seems like it's been that way forever...yet I still see your posts regularly, if not exactly often. Are you...ummm...one of the undead? :-)

[rayofreason]

62. 563

To paraphrase Monty Python - I'm not quite undead. In fact, I feel much better.

I float in and out, sometimes just reading and not posting for a long time. I'll write something when the mood and circumstance warrant (and when I have time), so the number of my posts is not so larg. But I always find your posts to be reasoned argument. As you can guess from my moniker, I am an advocate of a rational and empirical approach to issues. That does not always play well with those for whom the revealed truth is first, and reality that does not fit must be discounted or exposed as a "hoax" or "conspiracy". In that regard I am a big fan of reductio ad absurdum. Hence my comment about slavery and the appropriateness of imposing one culture's values on another. Moral and cultural relativism is pernicious, and usually only serves as a mask for deeper hatreds or an excuse to justify what the speaker knows must just be TRUE.

[rayofreason]

56. Lent...

...is over.

[saigon68]

61. ~

[superconnected]

18. Did anyone ever say they did keep _all_ the bad guys from them.

Instead they're only proven to reduce the crime rate, not eliminate it completely.

For many of us reducing the crime rate, is a good direction to start in.

[JuniperLea]

23. I did

Pay attention and try to keep up.

[ghostsofgiants]

26. He meant did any supporters of gun control say it.

Try to keep up. :eyes:

[JuniperLea]

29. I'm the one who he was responding to...

And his question was directly related to my post! Try reading the post someone is responding to... you may understand the conversation better.

Let me break it down in bite sized pieces for you:

He asked me what my point was... following? Ok... I told him my point was that those stringent laws don't keep guns from the hands of all the bad guys... keeping that thought rolling? Good! Then you must understand my comment now. See. Easy. Take it step by step.

[ghostsofgiants]

33. You're comletely missing the point of what superconnected said when he asked if anyone ever said it.

Also: Your thought process must be horribly painful, because I don't even share it and it makes my mind bleed.

[JuniperLea]

35. We are all different...

Have different IQs, different ways of thinking things out... thanks for confirming.

No, I believe you missed it. Since he was replying to me, my post is the significance here.

[superconnected]

30. You understood perfectly.

Good job keeping up!

[JuniperLea]

36. Unfortunately

Neither of you got it. I'm the one who was asked for their point. I gave it, it was questioned, and I reiterated.

Very simple, really.

[ghostsofgiants]

37. Simple, but incorrect.

I asked your point, to which you responded that gun control laws don't keep guns out of the hands of every bad guy. superconnected then replied to you saying "Did anyone ever say they did keep _all_ the bad guys from them" by which he meant "has any supporter of gun control laws ever asserted that gun control will keep guns out of the hands of every bad guy?"

Clearly you're missing the point of superconnected's post, as I said.

You do have one valid point though: Why am I wasting my time?

[JuniperLea]

39. Oh Good God

I got it already. You didn't.

I'm the one saying that. Just because someone else threw in something completely different. He asked what I meant, I told him. He asked who ever said that. I told him I'm saying that.

Jeebus H. Cripes on a freaking cracker.

[karlrschneider]

48. Remember you're having a discussion with a person with a bleeding brain.

...

[JuniperLea]

53. That may explain things... n/t

[iverglas]

67. good show!

I'd hate to think I'm the only one who gets to enjoy these little games, the meat and potatoes of firearms discussions here and everywhere.

I must say the two of you evoked a truly outstanding performance in the spinning around crying 'look over there!' while trying to stanch the flow of blood from the lethal arrow to the heart of the straw person category. Somewhere, an awards ceremony is underway at this very moment. Both ears and the tail, I say.

But best director kudos of course go to youse guys. I look forward to your next production. ;)

[0rganism]

47. Japan's crime rate is not deteremined solely by its gun laws

The Japanese have a very different culture overall, they take family honor and community policing very seriously. It's completely possible that the effect of gun laws on their violent crime rate is negligible overall. Many other countries have equally strict firearms restrictions and much higher crime rates.

At the very least, I'd Japan's comparative lawfulness is overdetermined, with the gun laws having some impact, including shifting ownership and distribution balance very heavily to the Yakuza.

[ghostsofgiants]

19. Yeah, the two replies you've already gotten to this pretty much sum up what I was going to say.

[JuniperLea]

25. Then why did you waste your time?

And mine...

[Crayson]

66. But not Katana control ^^

[rinsd]

2. WTF?

"Mayor Iccho Ito was shot twice late Tuesday outside the city's main train station by a gangster reportedly disgruntled over damage to his car at a public works site"

As far as motives go, this one has me scratching my head.

[INDIA]

3. Wow. I've always heard that the most feared gangsters in the world...

Were from Japan/Hong Kong. Russian Mob is second, and the Italians a distant third. Something about the warrior/samurai culture left over from the feudal days. Scary stuff. A mayor? Wow. Condolences to the family.

And as long as DU is embroiled in the 2nd amendment debate, does anybody know the gun laws in Japan? I thought that private ownership of guns was banned under their pacifist constitution. (Obviously a much less violent culture overall, but this could be an example of how the bad guys arm themselves no matter what.)

[Mojorabbit]

5. The Japanese

mob are one bunch of scary dudes or they were in the 70's when I was living there.

[RamboLiberal]

6. Story from Manila paper last month - Yakuza smuggle guns

Camp Crame sources said the Japanese government has been worried over reports of gun smuggling cases in the Asia-Pacific region, with some of the firearms falling into the hands of Japanese crime syndicates like the Yakuza.

The National Police has received reports of two cases of gun smuggling into Taiwan, one on Oct. 5, 2000 and another on July 13, 2006, involving a total of 214 long and short high-powered firearms that originated from the Philippines.

In both cases, police investigators were able to track down five of the 150 units of the imported British-made Heckler & Koch MP5A sub-machine guns, which were delivered and diverted to a private gun dealer, from the hands of the Taiwanese gun smugglers.

http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=politics2_mar12_2007

[slackmaster]

9. This must be a joke, right?

Mayor Iccho Ito was shot twice late Tuesday outside the city's main train station by a gangster reportedly disgruntled over damage to his car at a public works site, according to Nagasaki prefectural (state) police official Rumi Tsujimoto.

Wow, I thought that kind of thing only happened in Texas. :sarcasm:

The strongest gun control on the planet, and the most dangerous criminals still have all the guns they want. And use them to settle petty disputes.

[INDIA]

10. But to argue counter my own personal opinion...

Shooting deaths, and murders in general, are still a rarity in Japan, compared to the thousands in the US every year. Tough to paint a broad brush with an isolated incident. If stuff like this was happening every week, you'd have a stronger argument.

[slackmaster]

12. Fortunately for the pro-control side, Japanese criminals use guns mostly on each other

You don't hear about good people getting shot because that is indeed rare.

[INDIA]

14. That's also partially true in the US.

Obviously incidents like VT hurt my argument, but a huge chunk of gun deaths are drug dealers and gang member killing each other in the same isolated parts of blighted inner city areas. I believe the (Dem) Mayor of Baltimore got in hot water a couple years back for saying just that when trying to defend his city's absurdly high murder rate.

95% of this country is just as safe as any European or Asian city.

[slackmaster]

15. I agree - US crime is very spotty and most places are quite safe

In my city (San Diego) most neighborhoods are perfectly fine. But just a quarter mile from my home is a very rough one. Fortunately there are two freeways between me and there, and no easy way to walk from there to where I live.

The only problem I've had is a few bullets stuck in my roof shingles. Not great, but it could be a lot worse if I was within line of sight of the problem area.

[INDIA]

17. wow, bullets struck your roof? That would scare the hell outta me!

Stay safe....AND 1000th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slackmaster]

21. They are falling down and go THWACK! as they stick in my asphalt shingles

Average depth of penetration about 1/8", in other words they end up protruding.

I'd like to strangle the assholes who fire them in the air. Typically they are handgun bullets, either .25 or .38 (9 mm) caliber.

ETA that has happened three times I know of in 11 years.

[Kagemusha]

11. Well you know what they say

when you ban legal gun ownership only criminals have firearms.

Edit: Though either way, I don't think the blatant murder of the mayor of a major city is even remotely common in Japan. I wonder if there's precedents in the modern era at all.

[superconnected]

20. But is their crime rate lower than ours?

Message deleted. I think my rudeness is uncalled for.

[slackmaster]

24. It depends on where you are

To the late mayor's family, the Japanese crime situation probably seems pretty serious right now.

In my part of San Diego, the violent crime rate is very close to zero.

[mainegreen]

52. Agreed. Crime rate where I grew up here in Maine was very low.

No random violence to speak of.
Baltimore? Scary (but better now).

[slackmaster]

63. I had a very scary experience in Baltimore once

I had an afternoon to kill and did some exploring. I drove through one area of beautiful 19th century row houses in good restoration, kind of like parts of Harlem in NYC. But suddenly in one block everything got real bad - All the street lights out, broken windows, gang-bangers yelling things at the white guy who looked very out of place.

I got the hell out of there.

[Blue_Tires]

65. yeah, I've been there many times

Baltimore has some unplesant parts, but the worst sections of Baltimore is still better than the best sections of East St. Louis :scared: :crazy:

[Blue_Tires]

31. he SHOT the mayor over damage to his car???

what the shit??

[JuniperLea]

42. Hell, in Los Angeles...

You can get shot for wearing the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood!

[Art_from_Ark]

58. It could be related to a scam called "atari-ya"

Here's how it works:

In Japan, gangsters prefer expensive cars like Mercedes and Cadillacs. In the "atari-ya" (literally, "hit man") scam, they intentionally force an auto accident in order to collect excessive amounts of money to "repair" the "damage" done to their car (which might have already existed). It appears to me that they might have tried such a scam using Nagasaki city property as a pretext (for example, "A rivet from your municipal construction site fell on my Mercedes and caused $5000 in damage"), and the mayor refused to go along with the scam.

[zara]

46. A gun tragedy in Japan is the assassination of 1 person

[karlrschneider]

49. And if you're an Iraqi, it doesn't even exist at all.

:eyes:

[sce56]

50. Away from all the arguments on gun control! The main thing here was a true Peace Maker

was lost! A person close to me knew him.
Photos from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference 2005: 7th NPT Review Conference in the General Assembly of the United Nations:

Nagasaki Mayor, Iccho Itoh, and Oxnard attorney, Carmen Ramirez, on the steps of the Isaiah Wall (and they shall beat their swords into plowshares) across from the UN in New York:

http://www.atomicmirror.org

[dave29]

51. Nagasaki. Didn't some sort of mass murder happen there once?

just curious

[saigon68]

54. Mass Murder happens in Iraq-Nam all the time

When amerikan planes bomb houses that contain "insurgents" A/K/A children

[karlrschneider]

55. No, you're thinking of Hiroshima. Nagasaki was just

collateral damage.

[Art_from_Ark]

59. Well, there was a mass murder of Christian missionaries there

back in the 17th century

In 1959, a boy in Nagasaki killed 7 members of his family.

[heliarc]

68. More recently...

There has been a case of what appears to be serial killings of foreign women alleged against one Japanese man who last I read was on the loose. (In Japan right now)

He hasn't yet used a gun. These killings appear to involve strangulation, mutilation and amputation.

[Eugene]

64. Japan to clamp down on guns after mayor shot-paper

Source: Reuters

Japan to clamp down on guns after mayor shot-paper
19 Apr 2007 03:17:29 GMT
Source: Reuters

TOKYO, April 19 (Reuters) - Japan will speed up efforts to
tighten gun control after the mayor of the southern city of
Nagasaki was fatally gunned down by a suspected gangster
this week, a newspaper reported on Thursday.

Japan already has strict gun control laws, but the shooting
of Itcho Ito on Tuesday has prompted some, including Prime
Minister Shinzo Abe, to call for even tighter controls.

The government and ruling coalition parties will aim to
submit a bill to revise gun control legislation by the end
of the current session of parliament on June 23, the Nikkei
newspaper said.

-snip-

Measures being considered include requiring guns to be
labelled by authorities as they are imported, which could
help police track down smuggled firearms from abroad.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/T6689.htm