Marines Announce Osprey Deployment

[RamboLiberal]

Source: ABC/AP

The commandant of the Marine Corps is announcing the first combat deployment for the M-V-22 Osprey aircraft today, a move that will affect where the aircraft are based.

The Osprey is expected to be used in Iraq.

The only three operational squadrons of Ospreys are based at New River Air Station next to Camp Lejeune in eastern North Carolina. The Marines currently have about 45 Ospreys, including testing and training squadrons.

Osprey aircraft take off like a helicopter and can fly like an airplane. They have more range, carrying capacity and can fly at up to 300 miles-per-hour. They will replace Vietnam-era C-H-46E Sea Knight helicopters.

In development since 1986, Osprey test flights were stopped for about 18 months after crashes in 2000 killed 23 Marines.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3038969

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Bet they will make good targets or crash like they did in test flights. I think is an aircraft that was a boondoggle.

[youngdem]

1. Uh oh, I fear we are gonna top 3,400 quickly. These things are sitting ducks for RPG's and the like

And they have handling problems. Bet we lose a few.

Sad.

[DURHAM D]

2. Last summer these things flew over my house several

times during one week. I was surprised to see them - I thought they had junked the project. They sound and look different than any other aircraft - in other words, you can hear them coming and know what they are.

[AnneD]

11. So did I...

they are too costly and unreliable last time I read. Had horrible field test results. I am glad they got the bugs worked out. :eyes::sarcasm:

[saigon68]

26. Osprey a/k/a The 20 Billion $$$$ Flying Anvil

LOL

[AnneD]

31. With just as much of a chance...

of becoming air borne....LOL

Trouble is, it will be our kids that will be on this experiment. What we need is hardy low tech equipment, not sophisticated equipment that can't stand up to adverse conditions.

[JohnyCanuck]

4. My fear would be

that I might get stuck in one where the tilt rotors get stuck in the horizontal position, since there's no way to make any type of conventional fixed-wing type approach and landing without the thing tying itself into a giant, aluminum knot since the rotor/prop blades would hit the ground before the landing gear or fuselage.

Maybe they've figured they've got that possibility covered by redundant hydraulic systems etc, but there's still Murphy's law (if anything can possibly go wrong, it will) to take into account.

[zonkers]

17. Yup, Ospreys are a disaster.

[theoldman]

3. Due to the fact that they fly faster than a helicopter, the V22

should present less of a target. The down side is that they carry more people than most helicopters so more will get killed if they are hit. Attack helicopters fly low during a mission making them a good target. The V22 will probably fly at a high altitude since it is used to transport troops or supplies.

[northzax]

39. in transit, perhaps

but in drop zones, it seems that the Osprey is likely to be limited in the types of maneuvers allowed, making it a slower, larger target that even the Chinooks.

what's the point of a military aircraft you can't use in a combat zone?

[daleo]

5. The Iraq "insurgents" can save on ammunition now

I have heard lots of knocks against these aircraft, not that I am qualified to judge. But according to what I have read, they do a pretty good job of falling out of the sky on their own. Using unproven equipment seems a bit desperate.

[Rick Myers]

7. Osprey brings new meaning to the phrase:

"Death from the Skies!"

[AnneD]

12. Funny...

but sad. I don't know wheither to laugh or cry.

[gulfcoastliberal]

6. Those things are far too complicated. They won't last in the sands of Iraq!

Those POS craft killed many Marines in test flight crashes. Think of all the moving parts required for such a complicated machine. Regular helicopters are getting trashed by the sand. This thing is even more vulnerable. And well placed small arms fire could probably bring it down easily.

[Sal Minella]

8. No physicist or engineer here, but I do not understand how the props can cease providing vertical

lift and suddenly start providing fast-enough horizontal pull to let other surfaces provide vertical lift.

It just seems to me that in that transition period from vertical=up into horizontal=forward=very=fast, there's a lot of time for a lot of things to go a lot of sour......jm(uneducated)ho.

[gulfcoastliberal]

10. I agree - looks very vulnerable transitioning from vto to level flight.

I guess the huge diameter of the props provides enough lift thrust to get it vertical and keep it in the air as the wings move from vertical to horizontal. That thing is a boondoggle. A total waste of billions of dollars and lives. I'm no aeronautical engineer either, but the test flight disasters speak for themselves regarding its design worthiness.

[Big Sky Boy]

16. It's a gradual shift

I've seen them fly. When they take off, the props are pointing straight up. When they get to the appropriate altitutude, they start slowly tilting forward. The craft stops hovering and and begins moving, slowly at first and then very, very fast. They can go as fast as any other fixed wing turbo prop -- several hundred mph.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. From what I have read...

They are most vulnerable to mechanical failure and attack when they transition from horizontal flight to vertical flight.

Seems like a bad time to be doing final trials to me.

[Ilsa]

13. I'm wondering if they HAVE to use the V-22 because they don't have

enough army helocopters available any more. I have been to an ARMY helo depot recently, but I wonder if alot of their equipment isn't worn out from the sands of Iraq.

BTW, hasn't the V-22 been a project for almost 20 years now?

[Hardrada]

14. Just like the Luftwaffe had to resort to using night fighters

in the daytime because it was running out of planes. Of course the nightfighters were unsuitable and were shot down. The more things change the more they stay the same etc. etc.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

15. Yes, and the Marine Corps has NO Army

helicopters, they are all Navy/MC types.

and yes, Osprey has been killing people since 1986 or so

[Ilsa]

20. Thanks for reminding me of the divisions, I had forgotten that

the MArine Corps sends helo pilots through their own school for their own craft. I wasn't thinking "Marines" at all. D'uh me!

[Big Sky Boy]

18. The V-22 was designed for a VERY specific use.

I attended a briefing about ten years ago...

We learned during the Falklands War (while we were assisting Britain) that helicopters are too slow for significant troop movements when your enemy has Exocet missiles. I was in the Navy at the time and we were especially concerned about marine landings -- the range of a standard helicopter meant that the ships had to come in very close to shore, within missile range...

The purpose of the V-22 is to move very quickly, hover, drop its payload and retreat quickly without dragging the ships within missile range.

I have no idea what they plan to use them for in Iraq -- and I am very concerned about a craft that is made almost entirely of composite materials.

Have you ever seen a Corvette after a major accident? There is nothing left of the fiberglass body.

[Ilsa]

19. Thanks for the details, BSB. Yeah, I've seen what little was

left of a 'vette after a crash. Scary. I didn't realize the V-22 was composite.

(I also remember having friends who were PO'ed about not being able to find a place for their magnet antennaes to attach! LOL)

[dysfunctional press]

24. iran has exocet missiles, doesn't it...?

maybe the ospreys are being positioned for a VERY specific use.

[MadMaddie]

25. Thanks for information....and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

35. Just like the B1B, B-2, and others.

specific theories of warfare, specific uses.

The B1B was an expensive disaster, costing billions, yet being easy to spot and shoot down because of its huge radar sig.
The B-2 was intended for one purpose and one purpose only - to provide a multi-layered attack against the USSR or China. To justify its huge cost, and the fact that it was radar invisible, they started playing with it, trying to find a new job for a superbly designed cold war relic. Instead of flying fast and high, they tweaked it (for billions more) to fly low and slow. Instead of carrying nukes, they rebuilt it to use smaller directional weapons, even cruise missiles.

I'll never forget how proud the Air Force was when they first used these babies in IRaqNam. They spoke glowingly of 20 hours in flight, with only two refuelings, multiple crews resting, working, sleeping, and how they managed a precision pin point attack on two targets AT THE SAME TIME! and then about the long flight home. And then, some nosy accountant did the math, they spent millions just to put that fleet in the air each time, AND, millions more just to blast a couple of buildings.

A land based, sea based even local air based cruise missile would have done the same job, faster, more accurately, without a team of 150 people for each plane (maintenance, crews, refueling, guidance, targetting, etc) for a small fraction of the cost. After his report hit some papers, all of a sudden all use of B2s ended.

the V22 is a relic and does everything assbackwards.

three needs in Iraq
allweather capacity in hot, sandy conditions. (night flight is considered "weather")
large payload
staying power in one location.

They won't dare fly these things at night for a couple of reasons. The wake they generate upon landing or take off causes a vortex which will down the next one real quick. down as in crash.
that rules out night flight.
large payload? The beasts they replace had 3-6 times the capacity.
staying power? not unless you have a death with. Sure they can hover, but a large slingshot can penetrate its skin and attack its very complex machinery inside. With a chopper, even a huge one, the rotating blades continue to provide some lift even with dead engines. Yeah you crash land but the key is you land. Back injuries, most likely but better bent than dead.
These don't have that capacity. they don't crash land, they merely crash.

The only reasons they are putting these flying mistakes into Iraq is because they ran out of older, more trusted equipment and they want to shock and awe the iraqis with new toys.

a bad, bad, bad mistake

[anotherdrew]

42. the design is flawed surely the rotodyne type would have been a much better choice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotodyne

there's video of it in flight on http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rotodyne&search=Search">youtube as well

"The first successful transition from vertical to horizontal and back to vertical flight was achieved on April 10, 1958. It also performed to expectations. It set a world speed record for a helicopter, at 190.9 mph (307 km/h) on 5 January 1959, over a 100 km closed circuit. As well as being fast, the craft had several safety features: it could hover with one engine shut down and its propellor feathered, and the prototype demonstrated several landings as an autogyro. The prototype was demonstrated several times at the Farnborough and Paris air shows, regularly amazing onlookers. The Rotodyne's tip drive and unloaded rotor made its performance far better when compared to pure helicopters and other forms of 'convertiplanes'. The aircraft could be flown at 175 knots (324 km/h) and pulled into a steep climbing turn without demonstrating any adverse handling characteristics."

Just think what modern technology could have done with this design.

[JohnyCanuck]

43. Well I think I can see the problem in this, if you can't

Check out the full name. It's a "Fairey" Rotodyne. You expect the Marine Corps would accept US Marines riding into battle in something called a "Fairey?" Next thing they'd be known as the Tinkerbell troops. :)

[anotherdrew]

44. well ya there is that, but the v22's performance isn't all that much better than this from 1960

"With Westland Aircraft the larger Rotodyne design could be developed to take from 57 to 75 passengers which with the Rolls-Royce Tyne turboprops (5,250 shp) would have a cruising speed of 370 km/h. It would be able to carry nearly 7 tonnes of freight and British Army vehicles would fit into its fuselage."

for comparison: ~1960 rotodyne prototype -vs- ~2007 v-22
Max takeoff weight: 38,000 lb (17,000 kg) - Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg) = 159.2%
Maximum speed: 213 mph (343 km/h) - Maximum speed: 275 knots (316 mph, 509 km/h) = 148.4%
Loaded weight: 33,000 lb (15,000 kg) - Loaded weight: 47,500 lb (21,500 kg) = 143.3%
Max takeoff weight: 38,000 lb (17,000 kg) - Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg) = 161.2%
average = 153.0%

I'd have thought in 45 or so years we'd have been able to get a larger % improvement over a 1950's era tech one-off prototype.

[anotherdrew]

41. that seems to suppose they do have anti-ship but no anti-air

Personally I think an update with modern tech of the Rotodyne design would have been a better choice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotodyne

[Sal Minella]

21. Seems like I've been reading about fatal Osprey crashes forever....

[saigon68]

27. Read More

Chain of Errors Caused Fatal Osprey Crash

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2000/n07282000_20007282.html

[ohio2007]

33. failed a desert test eh?

just saying this may be the chance the marines have to scrap the V-22 funding for good.

Use em or lose em....well....

[saigon68]

38. Or die in em

[hack89]

22. No

if the Marines want to get funding for more they have to demonstrate that they are effective in combat. The Army has plenty of helicopters.

[FogerRox]

34. Excellent point

[northzax]

40. technically, it is the Marines

the army gave up on V/STOL two decades ago.

[ChoralScholar]

23. Dave Barry used to make fun of these aircraft

constantly in his columns:

"All the government ever seems to do is suck up our hard earned money and spew it out on projects such as the V22 Osprey military aircraft, which the Pentagon doesn't even want, and which tends to crash, but which Congress has fought to spend millions on anyway, because this will help the re-election efforts of certain congresspersons, who would cheerfully vote to spend millions on a program to develop a working artificial hemorrhoid as long as the money would be spent in their districts."

"The wisest course for the Mobsters would be to turn all their worldly goods over to the government right now. Because if they keep attempting to file the correct form, they're going to wind up in serious trouble, fleeing through the swamps around Pensacola, pursued by airborne IRS agents in the new V22 Osprey, suspended via steel cables from some aircraft that can actually fly."

[tabasco]

28. War profiteers foist another substandard product on our military.

Taxpayers flip the bill with money but our troops pay the price in blood.

[reprobate]

29. A few years ago I saw a TV report that investigated the Osprey.

The main problem with the V-22 turned out to be a failure in the transmission that insured that the power from the engines was split between the two rotors. This was to guarantee a safe landing in the event of one engine failing.

I have no idea if they fixed the problem, but they did mention that it seemed to be quite badly iffected by dirt and sand. Just right for a desert war.

[ohio2007]

32. The marines never liked the pork barrel project

they didn't want the Osprey ( as the current low number of them indicate ) but whatever district the Osprey is built in, that congressman pushed to keep those jobs in his/her district during the Grahm/Rudman(sp) military spending review years.

water under the bridge,out of necessity, that congressman will find out if the machine will fly in combat very soon.

[JohnyCanuck]

30. The Marine Corps brass

could perhaps reassure the Marine Corps grunts who will be riding into battle in these levitating, Rube Goldberg contraptions of the Osprey's safety by replacing the current Marine Corps supplied helicopters assigned to the Presidential flight with Ospreys. Obviously I am joking, as we all know there is no way in hell you'd see Shrub, The Dick and other members of high Washington officialdom risking their lard-asses to ride in an Osprey any time soon.

[anotherdrew]

46. you're so right. make bush fly in an Osprey as marine-1 for ahile

as well as the rest of the brass, that is so fitting.

[lonestarnot]

36. Oh boy, we've resorted to crash splashing.

Guess enlistment is way down. :shrug:

[TroubleMan]

37. The Osprey is a death trap.

It already kills Marines back home in the states without things like enemy fire and combat stress on the pilots. This has all the makings of a nightmare.

[anotherdrew]

45. they just grounded them again on the 8th. another software bug found

this time the bug was found before it killed everyone on board, unlike most of the other accidents.
these things seem to love to leak hydrolic fluid