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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:37 AM
Original message
Italy to try U.S. soldier for agent's death in Iraq


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070207/ts_nm/italy_usa_shooting_dc_1;_ylt=Alh0QvtwxM_7Tk_i.0s5.FEUewgF
Italy to try U.S. soldier for agent's death in Iraq

11 minutes ago

ROME (Reuters) - A Rome judge on Wednesday ordered a U.S. soldier to stand trial on homicide charges for shooting dead an Italian intelligence agent in
Iraq in 2005 as he was escorting a newly freed hostage to safety, prosecutors said.
ADVERTISEMENT
click here

Mario Lozano of the U.S. Army's 69th Infantry Regiment was charged with voluntary homicide for shooting Nicola Calipari at a checkpoint near Baghdad airport. He was also charged with two counts of attempted homicide -- one for the other Italian agent driving the vehicle and the second for the freed hostage inside.

Prosecutors said the trial will begin on April 17.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, I looked at the story and it leaves out a vital piece of info.
Do the Italians have custody of this guy?

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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do they have custody?
Probably not, but they can request his extradition to stand trial, should that fail then Italy can request a warrant for his arrest through INTERPOL.

Italy is also a member of the EU and while I'm not an expert, I'm sure that each member country is expected to turn over any criminals to other member countries upon request.

This guy is now stuck between the US, Korea, and Iraq or Afghanistan, for him it is a small world.
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. it looks like he will be tried in absentia.
US has had a crappy record on extradition.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. So much for the whoppers told by george w. bush on this incident.
Just as with all his other lies, the facts come to light and are diametrically opposed to the bullshit spewed by bush.

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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. surely Lozano was acting on orders from above. no other such incident before or after...
let that be his defense
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Just because the Italian Government is saying
the shooting was a homicide doesn't mean it was. The Italian government has reasons other than the pure pursuit of justice to want to give the US a black eye.

The CIA kidnapping in Milan has them still angry as well as the CIA usage of Italian Masonic Lodges to funnel drugs, weapons and money back in the 80s P2 scandal which was part of the Iran-Contra smuggling affair.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1514376,00.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. In this particular case, it was cold blooded murder
and the now ex-GI should be extradited to Italy to face justice. We can no longer give immunity to troops that commit crimes overseas, whether it is in Iraq or in Okinawa.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. it was cold blooded murder
And your evidence to back this up is what?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Get your nose out of the American press
The British press reported, and it was widely posted in DU at the time, that the Italians had made arrangements to travel by that road to the airport at that particular time, and that the Americans knew this full well.

Someone in the Green Zone did not want the Italian reporter that had been released from captivity to come out alive, perhaps because she held Leftist views and was sympathetic to Iraqis.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thats your evidence?
Yea, thats going to carry you along way.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Nobody has to prove anything to you, you mutt! Go back to sleep.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Of course they knew. You're right. Jezus. Discussed exhaustively here,
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 03:37 PM by Judi Lynn
for days. Never any doubt among the D.U.'ers who read sufficiently on the subject.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

U.S. 'knew agent going to airport'
Wednesday, March 9, 2005 Posted: 11:57 AM EST (1657 GMT)

ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi says the intelligence agent shot dead by the U.S. military told them he would be escorting a newly released hostage to the airport -- contrary to U.S. claims.

Another Italian attache, who was at the Baghdad airport, also told U.S. military personnel the car carrying agent Nicola Calipari and journalist Giuliana Sgrena was on its way to the airport March 4 before the shooting occurred, Berlusconi told the Italian senate on Wednesday.
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/09/italy.sgrena/

On edit, adding:



Last Updated: Sunday, 6 March 2005, 13:33 GMT
Nicola Calipari: An 'extraordinary hero'

On Friday, Nicola Calipari was an unknown Italian secret agent, close to completing another successful mission for his country.
A few hours and a selfless and fatal act later, he had become a hero mourned by his entire nation.

Calipari was on the verge of delivering Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to safety after her hostage ordeal in Iraq, when their car came under US army fire.

She recalled that he "fell on top of me to protect me, and immediately, I repeat immediately, I felt his last breath and he died on top of me".

Doctors said he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly.

His sacrifice stunned Italy.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323209.stm
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
52. Uh-huh
Our soldiers are murdering leftists because they're sympathetic to Iraq.

Perhaps you ought to back off the tin foil a bit.



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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I do not have your certainty this was a murder
Being in Ramadi at the time I was aware of the search and due to my MOS had some access to intel concerning the status of the Italian Hostage. However, not being at the checkpoint when the shooting occurred I can not say for certain what did happen only that I have seen no evidence (only conjecture and accusations) that this incident was a murder.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. (only conjecture and accusations) that this incident was a murder.
And thats all you'll ever see.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. On that basis, you don't know the moon isn't made of green cheese,
because you'd only have certain astronauts word for it, at best. And what do you know of their character? Less than these accusers would have of your character.... which, unfortunately, is plenty judging from what you've written!
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Wrong, we have physical evidence. Please
do not attempt to bring the whole world into a solpsistic free fall.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Do you have any details on this evidence?
I am not as up on this story as I should be. Thanks.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Solipsist? I was following your example - satirically? Who's we?
"We"'s testimony deserves greater credence than the testimony of those European witnesses to a cold-blooded murder What physical evidence? Moon rock? Does it have "moon" imprinted in it like seaside rock?

Personally, I don't doubt the moon-landing, but we rely on the testimony of others for much of our knowledge of the world and the events occurring in it. It just happens - unfortnately for you - that almost universally aknowledged as among the least reliable sources of information and truth are your war leaders, particularly the civilians who have been micro-managing it? But then, that would have escaped your notice wouldn't it? You great lover of truth! As long as it's official neocon trash!

Do you think physical evidence is the only evidence? If so, I've got news for you.

The circumstantial evidence as well as the testimony of witnesses appears to be overwhelming ... yet you CHOOSE to bury your head in the sand.

Are you not aware of the multiple deaths of "unembedded" press members out there? Do you really think your officials in Iraq have more credibility, would be more honest than those Europeans? Do you think they have nothing better to do than make up false accusations of such a definitively serious nature? Yes, it's a coalition of the reluctant, but this is precisely one of innumerable indicators of the ethos informing the architects of this invasion, which understandably underlies their reluctance.

Geopolitics has never been for the ethically-disposed, but there have historically been lines never breached - other than as a causus belli for a world war. And that's only in terms of the perceived enemy!!! But killing your own journalists!!! For crying out loud!

I wonder you have the nerve to come on here with that half-witted, callow, insulting claptrap.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Wow. Personally I never
saw a press members get killed by American fire when I was in Iraq (either time) or Afghanistan.

And in my original post I presented evidence the Italian Government "might" have other reasons to be mad at the US and this would be prejudicial to the apparent Absolute Truth of their argument that the US attempted to murder the Intel agent.

Testimony of witnesses? Witnesses are never in error, angry or incorrect?

And look just because you ascribe to solipsism, don't get mad at me.

Solipsism: A position that knowledge of anything outside the mind is unjustified. The nature of the external world cannot be known and may not exist. A metaphysical position that nothing exists independent of one's own mind.

prove to me that you exist. You can't because I could claim your messages were actually typed by me, either knowingly or unknowingly.

Now if you will excuse me I have to gobble up some neocon trash... Unless it doesn't actually exist? Crap does the world disappear when I close my eyes?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Wow! you're really awesome when you run off at the mouth like that.
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 12:45 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
So erudite... oooh! Been at that dictionary of philosophy again? Or just the dictionary? The more you write, the more you sound like the oogly-oogly bird, flapping round and round in ever-decreasing circles and disappearing up your own backside. That's why they say a little knowledge is dangerous. You've obviously been educated beyond your capacity. A variant of the Peter principle.

Imagine that, you never personally witnessed a press member being killed by American fire? Whodathunk! You're really smart. That supports your "case" so compellingly! Well, guess what? I went to Australia and didn't see a duckbill platypus. It's so bizarrely- designed, it's obviously a mythical creature. About as implausible as an agency of the state murdering some of its country's own journalists reporting on a war.

Would your terms have been in Eyeraq and Afghanistan have been as a CIA operative? Don't tell me. Let me guess.

"Crap does the world disappear when I close my eyes?" What do you mean WHEN! Tee, hee. You're a card.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I used to work at Langley;
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 02:14 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
on the production line at Ford's truck plant there. You know. Langley, Berks, near Slough. But we weren't supposed to throw people off tall buildings and stuff like that. They were very prissy like that. A roughneck like E Howard Hunt, for example, just couldn't have worn it in a fit. He'd have found the innocuousness of the job completely soul-destroying. Me, I get all the adrenaline I can handle listening to Johnny Horton's North to Alaska, as I am at this moment.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. So please detail out the conspiracy
"As far as the Defense Department is concerned, we and the Ministry of Defence in Italy consider this a closed matter," Whitman said. Both countries have called the death an accident. So are the MoD of Italy in on the conspiracy and puppets of the CIB? (Americans in the know, are aware the Central Intelligence Bureau is more powerful than the CIA...)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L0744988.htm

I can deal with your blathering attacks on me. Is it possible that there may be other motives to try Mario Lozano? Or do you hold a priori knowledge of the Absolute Truth of CIB coercion and brainwashing on Mario Lozano

Is it possible some Italians may be (rightly) upset over, The P2 drug smuggling ring and it's links to the CIA and Iran/Contra in the 1970s/80s, the CIA kidnapping in Milan in 2003, the American Jet and the Ski lift cable in 1998? And are allowing this to override their perfect knowledge of Lozano's guilt? Why is the assertion of murder the truth? Because Judge Sante Spinaci granted the request to charge Lozano?

I'd also like to know where I asserted anything about the government of America being good, infallible or right.

As far as my never witnessing a murder of a member of the press, it does not convey upon me the omniscience which you possess, but merely is a data point of non-CIB murder of the press.

May the Stone of Scone be returned forever to it's rightful place in Westminster Abbey!
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. "Because Judge Sante Spinaci granted the request to charge Lozano?"
You're the one with the beef about Lozano being charged? What are you scared of? People can be reefed in off the streets in the US and simply disappeared. And you're grizzling about turning over a US citizen for an inquisitorial trial, presumably, in view of your assertions, on a lesser charge(s) than murder.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Lozano is not innocent but he is not guilty.
However, several of the messages on this thread have stated it is a fait accompli that Lozano murdered Nicola Calipari. No doubt at the behest of the odious Negroponte.

Your first response to me on the 7th indicated my assertion that I was not certain he committed a murder was akin to believing the moon was made of green cheese.

Naturally, my response to such a statement (viewed by my primate brain as an attack on my faculties) was sarcastic.

But, because the US government is evil and corrupt and the Italian people are naturally upset is not proof of his guilt and the tip of some grand conspiratorial iceberg.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. The US Thugs killed this man
Disgusting and about time justice is done.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. So you totally reject the possibility .
that people higher up in the chain of command screwed up and didn't get the word out to subordinates who needed to know? Why?
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. US soldier on Italy murder charge (BBC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6339021.stm">Full story at BBC News website
An Italian judge has ordered a US soldier to face trial over the death of an Italian intelligence agent in a car at a checkpoint in Baghdad.

Nicola Calipari, 51, was shot in March 2005 as he escorted Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport after securing her release from kidnappers.

The soldier, Mario Lozano, will face a charge of murder in a case that put serious strain on US-Italian relations.

<snip>

Spc Lozano, of the New York-based 69th Infantry Regiment, is indicted for murder and attempted murder.
This controversial case is back in the news again. Notorious for the http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4325253.stm">differing accounts form both sides as to what actually happened.

Looks like Bush is determined to make friends into enemies.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. It will be an in absentia show trial
without a defense or anything to counter what is asserted. I am surprised they even got a name.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Now whose fault would that be?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bush Ordered Attack on Sgrena and Calipari
Bush Ordered Attack on Sgrena and Calipari
Nicola Calipari was already 220 yards inside Baghdad Airport's security perimeter when he received an incoming call on his cell phone. Calipari said "Yes?" and instantly recognised the positive ident trap. As Deputy Chief Calipari cursed & threw himself across Giuliana Sgrena to protect her, the kill team from Langley fired more than 300 bullets at their car.

Copyright Joe Vialls, 10 March 2005

If the American Administration wishes to prove that it did not order the CIA to intentionally ambush and then brutally murder Nicola Calipari inside the American security cordon at Baghdad Airport, all it has to do is surrender the bullet-riddled target car to Italian forensic authorities for detailed examination.

As countless television programs have taught us with boring monotony in recent years, forensic scientists will then be able to match the blood spatters from Calipari's horrific head wound suffered inside the car, with Calipari reference blood samples held in Italy. In addition they will be able to match the blood soaked cloth from the car seat, with blood from badly injured journalist Giuliana Sgrena, currently in hospital.

Perhaps the Americans could fool the Italians by switching the interior furnishings of the target car with another of the same year and make, but with far fewer bullet holes? Unfortunately for New York, this would not work at all. Atomized blood particles from high-velocity wounds like Calipari's get into every nook and cranny of the vehicle, rendering any car switch obvious to Italian forensic experts.

It was this advance necessity to hide the damning hard evidence of a premeditated 'saturation' attack on the car, that dictated the final selection of the killing ground itself: well inside the heavily fortified American defensive perimeter around Baghdad International Airport, and thus out of sight and range of cameras belonging to the Republican Guard and Mehdi Army, nowadays collectively known as "The Resistance".
(snip/...)

http://www.vialls.com/italy/sgrena.html
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Joe Vialls huh?
The accuracy of the findings of Vialls' investigations has also been disputed in many quarters. His investigations ended almost exclusively in the same conclusion, with Mossad and the CIA being responsible for significant world events, acting on behalf of a supposed powerful cartel of Zionist bankers on Wall Street and politicians who he alleged gave orders and dictated policy at the cartel's behest.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vialls
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. "If the American Administration wishes to prove that it did not order the CIA
to intentionally ambush and then brutally murder Nicola Calipari inside the American security cordon at Baghdad Airport, all it has to do is surrender the bullet-riddled target car to Italian forensic authorities for detailed examination.

As countless television programs have taught us with boring monotony in recent years, forensic scientists will then be able to match the blood spatters from Calipari's horrific head wound suffered inside the car, with Calipari reference blood samples held in Italy. In addition they will be able to match the blood soaked cloth from the car seat, with blood from badly injured journalist Giuliana Sgrena, currently in hospital.

Perhaps the Americans could fool the Italians by switching the interior furnishings of the target car with another of the same year and make, but with far fewer bullet holes? Unfortunately for New York, this would not work at all. Atomized blood particles from high-velocity wounds like Calipari's get into every nook and cranny of the vehicle, rendering any car switch obvious to Italian forensic experts.

It was this advance necessity to hide the damning hard evidence of a premeditated 'saturation' attack on the car, that dictated the final selection of the killing ground itself: well inside the heavily fortified American defensive perimeter around Baghdad International Airport, and thus out of sight and range of cameras belonging to the Republican Guard and Mehdi Army, nowadays collectively known as 'The Resistance'."

Is there something you'd care to rebut about in the above quotation? Some faulty reasoning? Doh...
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. I would simply prefer another source ..
one that is not linked to anti-semitic conspiracies. Just a personal preference you understand.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. I would prefer another source, too, as I despise anti-semitism,
but this is an imperfect world, and I don't believe that that gives me the right to abdicate my intelligence and deny a statement that is all too plausible out of hand, simply on that basis.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
45. As I was in a hurry earlier, and grabbed the first thing I found in a search,
it occurred to me, now that I have another moment to check this thread, that there may be some DU'ers who'd like a look at some of the threads we all read and many posted in 2005, when things were still being written about this hideous event:

UpInArms
U.S. bars Italians from examining victim’s car
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1335011

Cicero (tombstoned)
US satellite recorded checkpoint shooting, shows speed of Italian car: CBS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1434581

bemildred
Italy media reveals Iraq details
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1437886

NNN0LHI
Italy minister calls U.S. version of Iraq killing "a lie"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1443680

NNN0LHI
Italy, U.S. Disagree Over Agent Shooting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1395750

DoYouEverWonder
Nicola said, 'You are free. Come with me.' Then they shot (new info)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1307383

There are many, many more threads. These alone should offer real food for thought.

As for my source, in my earlier search article, Mr. Vialls, just learning someone labels him as one thing or another is enough to cause me to DENOUCE my post, to REPUDIATE it, to RUE the day I dared to post it. I'm kidding.

I believe he covered material we all discussed in depth, derived from many sources, and that's o.k. with me. Any time you question a source, wonder if he's/she's telling the truth, try checking the facts he or she has asserted. It's more direct, more effective.
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
53. ROTFL!
A little skepticism is actually very healthy. This stuff though, is far beyond that and is heading in the direction of medical intervention.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Good for Italy.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. The US was culpable in the incident. There was a plane waiting at the
airport; the US had been informed; the soldiers should have been informed. This was a brave man who rescued a hostage. He should still be alive; his death is inexcusable. By the way, it hurts me in my depths when I think of all the young Iraqi children who should still be alive, should still be alive for decades to come. I cry for our soldiers and their families, but most of the dead Iraqis are totally innocent of anything but being between George Bush's bombs and the ground where they landed. These people are truly evil personified.
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. There's an old saying in the infantry: "better to be tried by12 than carried by 6".
Anyone who has ever been in a place like Iraq or Vietnam where someone is plotting to kill you every minute of every day knows that your very survival depends on shooting your rifle without hesitation. I seriously doubt that this kid intended to murder Calipari, he intended to go home from Iraq alive. but even more than that, Iraq is a war zone for Christ's sakes. When you walk out into it, you take your chances just like everybody else.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. If it was as you suggest, "friendly fire", what's the problem? It happens in war.
Edited on Thu Feb-08-07 05:34 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
The proper medium for reason is love and wars are by definition driven by its antithesis, extreme malice, hatred, so it's little wonder that, as that great historian of yours, Barbara Tuchman once nailed it, "War is the unfolding of miscalculations".

The miscalculations for a "grunt" may, of necessity, be constrained by a timeframe of a nanosecond, but, as you imply, he's not excogitating in an ivory tower. Time for reflection, reason(!), is a luxury he may sometimes not be able to afford.

In this situation, if the explanation is innocent, why cover it up? Why the obstructionism towards an ally, justifiably aggrieved without confirmation of what was really behind the tragedy. Usually, I dare say, with "blue on blue", it's to cover up the derelictions of superiors, as appears to have been the case with the British troops.

The indications would seem to be otherwise, in this case, so that the abstructionism only tends to confirm the worst fears of US critics in this incident.
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. My only contention is that Mario Lozano is innocent of the charges brought against him
I purposely didn't speculate beyond that. Either way, I don't think it's proper for Italy to call for Mario Lozano's head on a plate if it is no more than a means of threatening/punishing/exposing someone else. They should summon him as a witness if they seek truth and justice.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Irony: Mario is of Italian descent.
I doubt that this trial will produce any verdict. The US Govt. will certainly not cooperate. It is suspicious because the Italian Reporter was writing about the events of the Falluja Invasion by US Troops. Theory: The Agent was not the target. She was.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. How on earth do you know he is innocent of the charges?
Edited on Thu Feb-08-07 08:30 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
You could save your country a great deal of money by replacing its legal system, with that kind of omniscience.

And if he was a leftist (i.e. honest) journalist covering Fallujah, it virtually guarantees it was a CIA job, and the soldier was a pawn, patsy, even.

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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. How on earth do you know that he is guilty oh circumlocutious one?
"You could save your country a great deal of money by replacing its legal system, with that kind of omniscience."
A.) This is an internet political forum, not a legal proceeding; as such, neither of us is presenting anything but theories. B.)Applying the principle of Occam's razor to the two conflicting theories suggests that mine is closer to reality than yours as my "trigger happy New York National Guradsman theory" is far less complicated than your "Government assassination squad murder conspiracy theory".

"And if he was a leftist (i.e. honest) journalist covering Fallujah, it virtually guarantees it was a CIA job, and the soldier was a pawn, patsy, even."
And you're getting snooty with with me about omniscience? For the second time, I'm purposely not speculating beyond my contention that Lozano did not, himself, conspire to commit murder. If you wish to to, go ahead but my argument ends with Lozano's innocence so you'll have to take it up with someone else.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Well if you discount circumstantial evidecne, no matter how compelling,
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 12:04 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
you really are as thick as two short planks.

But, unfortunately, it is a culpable stupidity, because it is clearly wilful. You were obviously endowed with a worldly intelligence, but choose to use it selectively and seemingly in bad faith. "None so blind....".

Or have I misjudged you, and you have the integrity to recant your wholesale dismissal of circumstantial evidence?

I'm afraid expecting an intelligent answer from you would make me as stupid as you, at least judged on your wilful nescience.
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. .
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 05:16 PM by MGD
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. The US routinely white washes the crimes of her soldiers
whether we are speaking of a rapist in Okinawa, or in Lozano's case, everyone knows that America lies all the time.

The whole of Italy mourned the killing of Nicola Calipari with politicians from across the political spectrum, from Berlusconi's fascists to the Italian Communist Party, demanding accountability and justice from the US government.

Italy has a better track record on truth-telling than Amerika.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. IndianaGreen is very well respected here. Your insults don't carry much weight. n/t
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. It wasn't an insult and I wasn't talking to you.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. This guy, if I remember correctly, was one of Negroponte's personal security.
Edited on Thu Feb-08-07 11:26 PM by w4rma
He just *happened* to be waiting on the route that the two Italian special service agents with their left-wing journalist (who was hated by Berlusconi, the right-winger Prime Minister of Italy at that time). The bullets were mostly fired at the area where the journalist should have been, except this agent covered her body with his.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. He was on security detail for Negroponte
who was expected to use that road that night.

Given the choice of believing the pathological lying US government and the Italians, I choose to believe the Italians.
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Which guy is that? Lozano?
Lozano was probably working at a Burger King before he was sent to Iraq with his National Guard unit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05357/626962.stm
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Hey, the lowest in the chain who I blame is Negroponte who gave him the order to go there and … (nt)
Edited on Fri Feb-09-07 12:57 AM by w4rma
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Is there some evidence that Negroponte ordered a political assassination?
Here are the facts as I see them:
1.) Lozano was a National Guardsmen. No offense to the National Guard, but they're in way over their head in Iraq. They are FUBARs(fucked up beyond all recognition) waiting to happen IMO.
2.) Specialist Lozano's unit was new to Iraq and on one of its first missions. As such, they were even more green than the average Guardsman in Iraq and, as such, they were even more prone to fucking things up.
3.) They were sent out to Guard route Irish. Route Irish is notorious for its many spectacular engagements with the insurgents. When you patrol route Irish, you do so fully anticipating contact with the enemy. This is enough to make any soldier trigger happy. As such, the potential for fucking up just like this is multiplied once again by the inexperience and the under-qualification of the soldiers.
4.) It was night. The previous potential for fucking up is now multiplied by the fact that night time increases the chaos and the anxiety and the potential for enemy contact. We are now at a point where it is virtually inevitable that things are going to be fucked up one way or the other but we're still not done making this situation bad yet.
5.) They had already fired warning shots at vehicles that night several times. Any time a soldier fires live rounds in a real world scenario, the intensity level is increased. Their anxiety level had to be well beyond the moderate levels that are conducive to increased performance. I can not help but believe that they were experiencing, at this point, the high levels of anxiety (commonly know as panic) which inhibits rational thought and breaks a creature down to its most basic instincts, fight or flight. Flight isn't an option however. Potential for fucking up is now assured.
6.) They had been left in position 6 times longer than policy directed. Soldiers on route Irish do not remain in place for more than 15-20 minutes because doing so allows the enemy time to mobilize and coordinate one of the attacks that route Irish is famous for. They had been in place for an hour and a half and had had to fire shots numerous times guaranteeing that their position was compromised. As such, they were probably assuming that contact would occur at any minute if they didn't get the order to withdraw. Again, potential for fuck up is virtually guaranteed at this point.

In conclusion,
I am not convinced that there is a conspiracy at work here. This sounds more like a tragedy than a conspiracy to me. Anti-US sentiments and the undermining intentions of various political discontents will, however, make it difficult for some to accept this for what it is.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. It'll all come out in court, won't it? (nt)
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. Probably not actually. nt
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Yes, and you were working as chief scientific officer at NASA.
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Ahhh, what's a matter, are you afraid to talk about the facts now?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-09-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. That figures now. He was no pawn or patsy.
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