Saddam's hero-like image shattered in Arab eyes

[leftward]

By Samia Nakhoul

DUBAI (Reuters) - For many Arabs Saddam Hussein's meek surrender to U.S. forces marked the total humiliation of a man who portrayed himself as a champion of Arab rights and the reincarnation of the 12th century Muslim warrior Saladin.

Repeated broadcasts of close-up footage of Saddam submitting to medical exams at the hands of U.S. soldiers were seen with disbelief, shame and disgust.

Of course many were revelling in his spectacular humiliation.

But even those who predicted his downfall did not imagine it would be that way -- plucked by U.S. soldiers like a rat from a hole.

"No Arab and no Muslim will ever forget these images. They touched something very, very deep," veteran Moroccan journalist, Khalid Jamai, a leading independent commentator, told Reuters.

"It was disgraceful to publish those pictures. It goes against human dignity, to present him like a gorilla that has come out of the forest, with someone checking his head for lice."

The deposed Iraqi leader's Arab supporters and enemies alike watched over and over again U.S. film of his surrender without firing a shot to defend himself.

http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=3994680

[aquart]

1. That's what my Mom said about the lice pictures.

And she isn't a Muslim sympathizer.

[Drifter]

2. Wouldn't humiliating Saddam ...

strengthen their resolve ?

Doesn't this sound familiar.

Cheers
Drifter

[Zhade]

13. In a word? YES.

The White House has been braying since the announcement that they are following a "no gloating" policy.

Well, it seems to me that showing Hussein the way they did is gloating. Humiliating an enemy leader (although Hussein appears not to have been leading the resistance) is not only the quickest way to fire up that enemy's resolve, I do believe it's against the Geneva Convention.

This is not to say I support him. Hell, I would have been happy to shoot him in the head, given half a chance. I am glad they captured him alive, but I fear the U.S. military will pay the price for the Bush administration's decision to air this humiliating footage.

The Bushies will now spin this for all it's worth. The loyal followers will forget anything else these traitors have done that they may have been waking up to. They will rally around the flag and the pResident even more than before, and dissent will become even more dangerous.

Also, with the knowledge that Hussein is not coming back, the Iraqi resistance will grow far more bolder than before. They will redouble their efforts to drive the U.S. out of their country. As a result, more troops and more civilians will die.

This capture is a mixed blessing at best. It's very good that he is no longer in power and killing people. I'd love to see him spill the beans on the BFEE - but I won't hold my breath on that.

[Tinoire]

3. That entire fake capture and charade was calculated for this effect

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't have dogs sniffing him out. That would have completed the picture for the Muslims.

The entire thing is surreal in its grotesqueness. Shows just how low these boys are.

I spit on the celebration and think very little of those who think there was any cause to celebrate. This whole thing is calculated to humiliate and inflame- absolutely despicable.

[Character Assassin]

4. Please support that contention.

That entire fake capture and charade was calculated for this effect.

Sure it was. Support your statement, please.

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't have dogs sniffing him out. That would have completed the picture for the Muslims.

So why didn't they, then?

The entire thing is surreal in its grotesqueness. Shows just how low these boys are.

There is nothing low about it whatsoever.

I spit on the celebration and think very little of those who think there was any cause to celebrate. This whole thing is calculated to humiliate and inflame- absolutely despicable.

Sure it was. Support your statement, please.

[5thGenDemocrat]

5. Right. The POS is responsible for how many thousands of deaths?

And Tinoire has the nerve to say "shows how low these boys are." No, the boys (in fact, the MEN of the First Brigade, 4th Infantry Division) did just fine -- better than fine, as they took Hussein alive and did their part to see the guy stands trial and, hopefully, rots in a cell for the rest of his days.
Spit on the celebration? Well, that makes one of you. Why don't you go hold this poor, mass-murderer's hands and coo to him to make him (and you) both feel better? I suspect you want to very, very much.
John
I shed no tears for Hussein, and I'd shed none if they'd just shot the SOB when they had the opportunity. What goes around should come around.

[Tinoire]

8. Ahem!

The boys in question are Bush and co. but not to worry how could you possibly know that as a retired 20 year vet the last people I would insult are our troops? Nothing like seeing people jump to their own little conclusions.

[leftchick]

35. I am confused... to which POS killing thousands of lives are you refering?

the aWol* chimp in chief comes first in my mind.....

[sam7]

37. Agreed.

Throw him in a chipper and screw whoever laments Husein's lost dignity.

[Tinoire]

6. For you

Sorry, not a chance. There are quite a few stories in LBN & GD from yesterday where you can get the same information I did. Just start reading. I've never been interested in your merry-go-rounds and certainly am not today.

If it's that important to you, make a donation to DU, get a star and do a search on my name from yesterday. Plenty of posts with all the links you need- I'm not going to waste my time digging them up for you or anyone else from the school of "There is nothing low about it whatsoever".

[Character Assassin]

9. Ah, I see that you can't.

Sorry, not a chance. There are quite a few stories in LBN & GD from yesterday where you can get the same information I did. Just start reading. I've never been interested in your merry-go-rounds and certainly am not today.

I've read both those parts of the forum, yesterday and today, and have seen nothing that would support your contention "That entire fake capture and charade was calculated for this effect."

If it's that important to you, make a donation to DU, get a star and do a search on my name from yesterday. Plenty of posts with all the links you need- I'm not going to waste my time digging them up for you or anyone else from the school of "There is nothing low about it whatsoever".

Uh-huh. So you make a statement, you are unable to support it, and you want me to take steps to search for answers to back up your position.

This tells me all I need to know about the veracity of your claims.

[Tinoire]

10. Let me put this plainly for you

What you think of my claims is of no concern to me. What you think is of no concern to me. Never has been, never will be and no amount of insulting posts will ever change that.

Have an "enchanting day" :)

[Character Assassin]

11. You haven't been insulted.

What you think of my claims is of no concern to me. What you think is of no concern to me. Never has been, never will be and no amount of insulting posts will ever change that.

Have an "enchanting day" :)

If you consider what I wrote in this thread to be insulting, then we do indeed have nothing further to discuss.

[Zhade]

20. I can't answer for Tinoire...

...but I can tell you that Bush's credibility is zero with any life-form with an IQ above that of, say, a slug.

Something has really bothered me since the alleged capture (alleged, because we only have the Bush administration's word on how things happened, and they lie about so very many things). I think it had to do with a couple of things I'd noticed before this happened.

1. The "early warning" by Rep. Ray LaHood (R-IL), given December 1:

U.S. Rep. Ray LaHood held his thumb and forefinger slightly apart and said, "We're this close" to catching Saddam Hussein.

Once that's accomplished, Iraqi resistance will fall apart, said the five-term Republican congressman from Peoria who serves on the House Intelligence Committee.

A member of The Pantagraph editorial board -- not really expecting an answer -- asked LaHood for more details, saying, "Do you know something we don't?"

"Yes I do," replied LaHood.

<snip>

LaHood said polls still show most Americans support the U.S. military presence in Iraq. Then he added, "Once we get Saddam ... and we're this close."

2. The creation, on December 9, of a war crimes tribunal under the control of the Iraqi Governing Council (aka "puppet government"):

Also, some human rights groups say Iraq's U.S. occupiers had too much say in creating the tribunal, and that Iraqi judges and prosecutors may not have enough experience to engage in such complex cases.

American legal advisers coached the Governing Council lawyers in drafting the tribunal law, which is similar to proposals made in Washington in April.

Now, neither of these two amazing coincidences shows proof that BushCo had Hussein and decided to reveal him at a time of their choosing. A smoking gun hasn't been found, and may not be.

However, it is extremely important and entirely relevant to point out that the Bush administration is full of lying traitors, and thus should not be instantly believed. That is the nature of the beast known as the BFEE.

Something stinks. I've had totally apolitical people mention their belief that this was all a set-up. Perhaps the constant betrayal, lies, and deceit have made them tired of being manipulated. Perhaps we are reaching to suggest that this was all a scam to trick Americans once again.

You gotta admit, though, it's really reaching to suggest that BushCo might be telling the truth!

[LiberalFighter]

21. It was a matter of timing

Christmas? Christian holiday? Give the soldiers a feeling of love for Bush? Needing to push the poll numbers up? Give his SOTU address a good press?



"The world was better without you, Saddam!", said Bush

Our response should be... The world and the USA will be better without you Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tinoire]

24. Ray LaHood =same guy who called DK's Iraq amendment "cheap shot of year"

A real beauty that guy!

Thanks for this information! Can't believe he's on the the Veterans' Affairs Committee and the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

=======================================================

WASHINGTON - The House on Thursday rejected two attempts by Democratic lawmakers for additional inquiries into the handling of intelligence on Iraq's weapons programs.

<snip>

Democrats have questioned whether prewar intelligence was inaccurate or manipulated to back up President Bush's push for war. Republicans have said there is no sign of wrongdoing and have accused Democrats of raising the issue for political reasons.

<snip>

An amendment proposed by Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas to require the U.S. comptroller general to study U.S. intelligence-sharing with U.N. inspectors was defeated 239-185.

By a 347-76 vote, the House rejected an amendment by Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio to require the CIA's inspector general to audit all telephone and electronic communications between the CIA and Vice President Dick Cheney relating to Iraq's weapons.

Kucinich, a presidential candidate and outspoken opponent of the war, cited a Washington Post story in which unidentified intelligence analysts said they had felt pressured by Cheney to make their assessments meet administration policy objectives. In debate Wednesday, Rep. Ray LaHood, R-Ill., called Kucinich's proposal the "cheap shot amendment of the year."

<snip>

© 2003 The Associated Press

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0626-10.htm

[Just Me]

22. DEBKA ANALYSIS,...kinda waters down your fire,...

,...Character Assasin (interesting name,...wonder how on earth you came up with that).

It's posted already, but, for your convenience,...I'll cite it, just for you,...


http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=743

[Tinoire]

23. Welcome to DU Just Me!

:toast:

I look forward to reading your posts :)

[Just Me]

30. Thank you,...

,...heh, heh, heh,...I know these guys when I see 'em *LOL*. It'll be okay :) Fortunately, they do operate on a blissful and chosen ignorance. They may actually "get it" after some time. But, maybe not. You know how that goes,...that "free will" thingy.

[Character Assassin]

33. Now that's an interesting comment. Pray tell, which guys?

I know these guys when I see 'em

Oh, do tell.

[Just Me]

39. Muwhahahahaha,...

,...those kinda guys,...;)

[Character Assassin]

25. Debka, to my experience, is like quoting the John Birch Society

or hystrionic material such as found as www.whatreallyhappened.com

I read the link, and find that their 7 points are rather irrelevant to whether or not he was already a captive or not. Their 'analysts' conjecture doesn't hold up particularly well to scrutiny, and, IMO, isn't deserving of the term 'anaylsis'.

[Just Me]

29. Ooooo,..."irrelevant",...doesn't THAT sound familiar,...

,...and tell me, "Character Assassin",...exactly WHAT makes your particular point of view,....especially "relevant". Nothing personal, mind you, just seeking out the unique and valuable "relevancy" of your particular point of view.

[Character Assassin]

31. You seem to have overlooked something

...and tell me, "Character Assassin",...exactly WHAT makes your particular point of view,....especially "relevant". Nothing personal, mind you, just seeking out the unique and valuable "relevancy" of your particular point of view.

Since it seems to have escaped your notice, I haven't offered a particular point of view other than that concerning the veracity and/or accuracy of Debka. But since you asked, here you go:

1. The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks.

He was apparently a man on the run, and likely did not have either the facilites to accomodate personal grooming to the degree to which he was accustomed or perhaps he wished to alter his usual appearance. I would think this would be obvious for a fugitive on the run.

2. The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period

See above.

3. The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed – 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.

What does the opulence of his former palaces have to do with anything? Beggars can't be chosers, and it's reasonable that he would not have had access to something more formidable.

4. Saddam looked beaten and hungry.

He didn't look beaten to me. He may well have been hungry, which is exactly the opposite of what one would expect of someone who'd been in custody.

5. Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.

So what? The man is a coward, and believes his own foolish myth that he must be alive to be the savior of the Iraqi people.

6. The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks – it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering.

That he could not have removed himself from the hole doesn't make sense. The covering was apparently styrofoam, and it wasn't locked.

7. And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him (a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward)– but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.

And? The man appears to have been on the run and without the resources once avaiable to him.

According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.

According to simple logic, that DEBKA 'analysis' isn't worth the pixels it's being displayed on.

[Just Me]

40. According to,....more "relevant" you,...get it?

,...probably not. That's okay. Personally, I admire a "skeptic" as I am one myself *grin*. However, it was/is evident that you were all over a particular poster,...THAT, I do not particularly admire. Besides,...I would think that DEBKA link perked your "skepticism" and "curiosity" about what REALLY happened. After all,...we are aiming towards the target of truth,...with only information towards our conjecture. So,...chill,..."character assassin",...and, do, please share HOW you came up with that name *LOL*.

[Character Assassin]

43. It's a play on words.

That's where I got this particular handle.

According to,....more "relevant" you,...get it?

I understand what you're trying to say, but you seem to be missing my point. DEBKA is stating "Becauase of factors X, Y and Z, the situation was definitely like this", and they try to pass their 'analysis' as something more than just conjecture.

I'm saying it's nothing more than conjecture, and conjecture that is derived from illogical use of the data.

So it's not necessarily a matter of me being relevant source of information, but rather the appropriateness of the data selected by DEBKA, its relevance to the conclusions that they've come up with and how they arrived at them.

Besides,...I would think that DEBKA link perked your "skepticism" and "curiosity" about what REALLY happened.

I'm stating that (a) if someone is asserting that we don't know what REALLY happened, he/she has to prove that case, and no one has yet done so and (b) I haven't taken a particular position yet as to the veracity of what is being reported, but rather I am questioning the doubts that have been raised about it based on the evidence at hand.

[lumpy]

52. There has been so much intrigue

and lies and convolutions in Dubya's ill planned war on terror anything is possible. Really, the Debka article could well be close to the truth. The feeling persists that Saddam's appearance and statements indicate that he was in a captive situation. I guess it doesn't really matter, the fact remains that Bush's invasion of Iraq was based on lies & speculation, thousands of Iraqis/US personal were killed and the country torn apart. Thousands of Iraqis remain incarcerated behind barbed wire, families have been decimated and the US is left with the biggest problem ever to be faced. The US has lost respect in the world community and the door has been for more so-called preemptive invasions. Bushco should have exerted patience for revenge and power and let the UN do it's job. I fail to see how capturing Saddam has changed anything.

[The Stranger]

28. Wait a minute.

That entire fake capture and charade was calculated for this effect.

Sure it was. Support your statement, please.

You doubt that the capture was calculated for its political effect? There is no need for specific support for that statement -- it is virtually admitted.

The entire thing is surreal in its grotesqueness. Shows just how low these boys are.

There is nothing low about it whatsoever.

Support your statement, please. And explain how invading another country, massacring thousands of innocents in the process, and hunting down and killing the leaders of that country, complete with Geneva-banned televised images, is not low.

Sure it was. Support your statement, please.

If it was, then support your own statement.

[leftchick]

36. At it again CA?

...for your reading pleasure.....

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/04ED8C25-1CBE-412F-AC41-7D0B86142FD8.htm

This is the view the Arab world has and it is not pretty.

[Character Assassin]

38. Yes. I realize using logic and reason can be painful for some

But I think that's all for the best, in the end. And no, I am not implying this is the case with you.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/04ED8C25-1CBE-412F-AC41-7D0B86142FD8.htm

This is the view the Arab world has and it is not pretty.

Yes, that may well be, but that has nothing to do with the original assertions that I was responding to (and have yet to be supported).

[Just Me]

41. "using logic and reason" is actually a RELIEF,...

,...for most of us (in my personal, humble belief). And, I do not see how that link you provided has to do with your attack upon another poster's perspective upon the possibilities,...

Perhaps you would explain,...kindly,...please,...

[Character Assassin]

44. I have provided no link. That was from #36, not me.

I stated that the information provided at that link may be true, but it doesn't apply to the subject at hand.

[Just Me]

42. Being the "accuser",...you do have the burden of proof,...LOL

[Character Assassin]

45. Yes, thanks, I'm aware of the rules of logic. But you're wrong

The individual making the assertion in the positive has the burden of proof, and I am not he. The individual disputing that assertion in the positive must evaluate (and respond to) the reply.

[blm]

16. I agree with you, Tinoire. This was a dog and pony show.

It looked more to me like they've had Saddam for awhile, and likely even reprogrammed him a bit on events of the 80s. He looked drugged, to me, and a little too cooperative with his captors.

[mobuto]

18. What would you look like

if you were on the run, daily, with 150,000 troops on the lookout for you, for seven months, to the point were you hid in a tiny, dark, cement well and were then pulled out by American troops and flown into interrogation, knowing that you soon would be tried, convicted and hanged for crimes against humanity.

No, if I were Saddam (God forbid), I think I'd look pretty much the way he does. He'd have looked better if they'd had him for a while.

likely even reprogrammed him a bit on events of the 80s.

Um, whatever.

[Tinoire]

19. Lol thanks! I knew I wasn't alone in this

There's a current thread in GD on the matter as we speak as well as one in LBN where this is discussed. I've wondered about the drugs too. Someone with medical experience mentioned yesterday that he displayed classic signs of being under Sodium Pentathol; I could never specify what drug but he did look and act that way. What was interesting was that he went from being disoriented, incoherent (to use their term) and cooperative to belligerent and insulting in a rather short time span.

If you or anyone else book-marked last fortnight's stories about him having been captured, please PM me the links!

Peace :)

[Pocho]

34. NO TINOIRE, YOU'LL NEVER BE ALONE

There are many with recently well exercised built in bull shit detectors who understand the Watergate laws: 1) No matter how paranoid you are, what the government is actually doing is worse. 2) Do not believe anything until it's been officially denied.

I never cease to wonder at those on DU who continually lambaste what they claim as intentionally molded biases of the press, damn the government for outrageous lying and then turn right around when it suits and accept as facts information for which that same press and government are the only sources. The best response to such minds of convenience is to ignore their empty challenges and go right on pointing to the elephant in the room.

However it really proceeded, the capture of Hussein may yet bode well but in an unexpected sense. His removal leaves a void which begs filling. There may yet be another in waiting with the motivation and capability of a Ho Chi Min ready to step out from behind that elephant and repeat the teaching of a hard lesson apparently forgotten.

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. I thought he looked good in his Santa costume...

FUCK BUSH Buttons, stickers & Magnets

[slackmaster]

7. I'm not the only one who thought he was treated like a gorilla

That's why I suggested only half-kiddingly in another thread that he should be put on display like King Kong.

[peacetalksforall]

12. The showing of that film disgusted me...

have we no class?

have we no concern for Muslims?

have we no concern for humans?

have we no concern for Gods' creatures.

This was probably the lowest propaganda decision ever made by the military, media, and administration handlers.

It was disgusting and will only be used for retaliation.

How many heads are we going to see such as Perl's.

One of the statements coming out of the mouth of Bush, Sr after Gulf War 1 was that Hussein was not captured because of the effect it would have on other Moslem leaders and their following in the area. He said something about having to preserve the dignity of the other leaders because they consider what is done to one is done to all - or something like that. This is the way my mind remembers it.

How many low points are we going to hit to make a Roveian jackpot?

[Tinoire]

15. As you should be able to tell by now

I totally agree with you.

No
No
No
No
Definitely
Definitely
Not one- they'd blow up the entire world first.


There is no limit in answer to your last question because those boys know no shame.

[okieinpain]

27. nope sorry, only the freepers are pandered too. the rest of us

lefty commies are unpatriotic and don't deserve any consideration from the white house, media, congress or federal courts.

[peacetalksforall]

14. Showing that film was for fearful haters and votes.

All those people in this country who call themselves christians are extrememly fearful of people who weren't born in their state or county and their fear is fertilizer for hate - very typical of humans in history - the problem is in spite of our raving and self proclaimed patriotism and supremism, we can't rise above basic ugly instincts.

[Zhade]

17. Absolutely correct.

This will blow up in the Bushies' faces - and the shrapnel will hit the troops and the civilians.

Hussein was a man to fear, no question. But this disgusting display on our government's part makes me ashamed. We were supposed to be better than this. We were supposed to uphold rights and dignity for others, even while justly punishing those same people.

Just because we CAN show something like this does not mean we SHOULD. I'm appalled at this fear-mongering, Arab-humiliating appeal to Americans' baser instincts.

[tlcandie]

26. Tinoire or someone here maybe can help me, I've been really

busy the last week and more, but this picture was on tbo.com showing the spider web entrance that the soldiers uncovered. I'm a bit confused. I thought it was inside this little house/hut/room thing where he had been?



Also, I thought that the room that had shown was empty? Same link for this pic....



Thanks in advance for help in clarifying!

[Tinoire]

46. That's the first time I've seen those pictures. Interesting!

Will see if I can contribute anything...

Where are the rats and mice?

[psychopomp]

47. The hole and the huts

The hole was found near some huts in the backyard. The bottom photo is probably the interior of one of the huts.

details here

[Tinoire]

50. Well,,, not much but here's something

Nic Robertson: Inside Saddam's hideout
Monday, December 15, 2003 Posted: 1850 GMT ( 2:50 AM HKT)
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/15/hideout.robertson.otsc/

Exhibit A


Exhibit B

Soldiers equipped with night vision goggles found their target hiding in a tiny concrete hole about six feet underground.

At six feet long, two feet across and three feet high, the hole was barely big enough for Saddam to lie in.

Soldiers who participated in the raid showed CNN's Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson the two-room hovel where Saddam had been living.

Exhibit C



The story they would like us to believe is that he lived in that 2-room house and that the hole was the emergency hiding place from the yard (which makes little sense also- someone who's going to build an emergency "hole" isn't going to build it in the back-yard where he has to run out-side, visible, to get there!

Makes no sense. You would think that Saddaam had a ton of lavish underground bunkers a-la Osama (remember those?).

Where did you get the info that the entrance was inside the house... I skimmed so much this week-end that I didn't pay attention to that detail. Curiouser and curiouser... The whole charade... so badly staged... They must have used a B-level Hollywood writer- those cheap bastards! ;)


Oh and from the same article:

Outside the rooms, the soldiers searched a miniature courtyard.

Pulling back a rug they found an eight-inch thick piece of Styrofoam with rope handles "plugging" a hole.
---

A rug in the courtyard?! A man who so cleverly hid WMDs throughout the Middle East had a hole in the courtyard covered by a rug?! Oh Please Dubya... You wrote this script yourself after a few too many Thanksgiving beers with Chalabi!

[Zhade]

51. WAIT. Something just jumped out at me.

Watch as I dazzle everyone with my "reason and logic":

So, we're expected to believe that Hussein lived in this hut, and had the hole as an emergency hiding place.

Okay, then answer this, Mr. Bush - what if Hussein had been alone? Suppose whatever guards he might have had were outside smoking or something, and get capped by U.S. troops?

Hussein jumps in his handy hidey-hole and waits for the troops to vamoose.

But wait! If Hussein has no one aboveground to place the dirt on the styrofoam and then cover the whole deal with a rug, the hole becomes completely useless, because it can't be concealed!

So a guy who, we're told, took such precautions as never sleeping in the same bed two nights in a row allows for such an easily-foiled exit strategy?

BULLSHIT. That does not make one iota of sense. And that's another thing to add to the "staged capture" column.

[Entente]

48. I would like to see

Photos and footage of Bush's next medical checkup. Including any anal examinations he may need. I think it is only fair!

[Tinoire]

49. lol! That would be only fair

Lice-check too. You never know what you get when you lie with vile rodents ;)

[Moderator]

53. Locking.

This thread was started by a conservative disruptor who has since been banned. It is the policy of Democratic Underground to lock threads that were started by banned disruptors.

Thanks!

DU Moderator