NYT: 51% of Women Are Now Living Without Spouse

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/us/16census.html?hp&ex=1168923600&en=8507615d5bdf468e&ei=5094&partner=homepage

For what experts say is probably the first time, more American women are living without a husband than with one, according to a New York Times analysis of census results.

In 2005, 51 percent of women said they were living without a spouse, up from 35 percent in 1950 and 49 percent in 2000.

Coupled with the fact that in 2005 married couples became a minority of all American households for the first time, the trend could ultimately shape social and workplace policies, including the ways government and employers distribute benefits.

Several factors are driving the statistical shift. At one end of the age spectrum, women are marrying later or living with unmarried partners more often and for longer periods. At the other end, women are living longer as widows and, after a divorce, are more likely than men to delay remarriage, sometimes delighting in their newfound freedom.

In addition, marriage rates among black women remain low. Only about 30 percent of black women are living with a spouse, according to the Census Bureau, compared with about 49 percent of Hispanic women, 55 percent of non-Hispanic white women and more than 60 percent of Asian women.

[lostnotforgotten]

1. And They Don't Want To Date - 50 Yr Old White Male No Dates In 10 Years

eom

[Porcupine]

24. They're "living life to it's fullest!"

They like to travel. They like to have "fun" and "laugh a lot." They all have great senses of humour. They all love their jobs and they know what they're doing with their lives. They have dogs, cats, kids and sometimes horses to take care of. None of them drink to excess or have drug, depression or complicating health problems either.

I think we need to get real as a people about what we can expect in another person. I also think we are going to have a great national tragedy in about 15 years when millions of people realize they know nobody who ever saw the place thier kids were born. What does it mean to grow old surrounded by people who know nothing of the life you led when you were young? It will be like a national case of alzhiemers.

I guess we're going to find out.

[Demeter]

109. Have You Tried Proposing Marriage?

"Dating" is a no-win situation for women seeking a life partner...

and marriage is a man's ticket to a longer, happier life.

[truthisfreedom]

117. Sure they do! I'm 47 and I date all the time.

Dating is all they have time for. Marriage has a bad name, apparently.

[olddad56]

129. I'm 58, never been married and ....

there has never been a time in my life when so many available, attractive women have been interested in dating me. I'm not bragging, I can't explain it, but it is cool. Most of the woman I date are divorced and glad of it.

[lostnotforgotten]

139. 8,000 Hits At Match.Com - No Dice Over 10 years

Now living in Syracuse NY - Very Slim Pickins Here.

[olddad56]

140. 8000 hits, no dice, time for an agonizing reappraisal of who you are.

[lostnotforgotten]

141. 6' 2" Tall 220 lbs - Still Have All My Hair - Can Speak Well - Play The Piano - Fly

two college degrees etc, etc. - pretty normal all in all.

[olddad56]

144. I'm 5'10", 160lbs, can't play the piano or fly, no problems.

Maybe they don't care about your height and weight, whether or not you can fly or play the piano, how many degrees you have.

Something is missing for you and I'm suggesting to you that if you can figure it out and won it, you will never have a problem meeting or dating woman.

Maybe they don't want someone who finds himself interesting, maybe they want someone who finds them interesting.

Search within yourself, ask your close friends to be brutally honest with you, ask the 8000 hits on match.com to tell you why they weren't interested in dating you. Find that central theme and if you find something you don't like, work on it.

I wish you the best.

[nick303]

151. Check out some of the work by dave deangelo

It may not be the image you're looking for but I found it extremely helpful.

[eridani]

163. That's called statistics

And the older you get, the more favorable they are for you. Opposite applies with women of your age.

[Cleita]

2. Count me in the widow population and I really have no

desire to find another one.

[Tansy_Gold]

131. ditto

I'm living with a long-time boyfriend -- or rather, he's living with me, because the house is in my name and my name only.

I loved my husband and we had a successful marriage, but I've made it abundantly clear that I will NEVER marry again.

Interestingly enough, of the five widows who are in my social circle, none are looking to remarry. However, the one widower in the group is getting married again in two weeks, less than two years after his wife's death. He has made it very clear that a.) he is not yet over his wife's death and still has difficulty dealing with her personal possessions in the house (which he will be sharing with his new wife); and b.) that he has been "lost" without a wife and is glad he has found "someone, anyone" to marry him.


Tansy Gold, a 51%-er

[Manifestor_of_Light]

184. It's the well publicised man shortage

And the fact that some men are helpless and can't even feed themselves or wash their own clothes.
Widowers get snapped up quickly by some woman who wants to take care of them and smother them in the guise of taking care of them.

And the fact that women are pickier after a divorce-from-hell or two, and won't put up with jerks and control freaks.

[Digit]

3. Happily divorced here n/t

[Sweet Freedom]

26. Separated and waiting for the final D

I've told my friends that if they ever hear me say that I'm getting married again, they should beat the shit out me so I can't walk down the aisle.

It's great to be happy!

[Triana]

4. Single and female for 16+ years here...

..well over 40, and no intention to get 'hitched' (again) anytime soon. It was bad enough the first time, thankyouverymuch and I am not making that mistake again. It's just not for me. Apparently, many women area deciding it's not for them, either - now that they CAN choose. It's hard to even find a decent date or dating relationship with someone who isn't a freak, an addict, just plain disgusting, or controlling and abusive, much less anyone to live with at that age - and I don't WANT to live with anyone. Ick!

[anitar1]

162. Congratulations Triana. I was married 23 years and

that was quite enough. Met so many men and dated some , but finally gave that up years ago.I have male friends and like it that way. I am happily single and old now--still love my privacy--enjoy my home and friends and am never bored. so much to do and enjoy.Also greatly enjoy my grown children.

[Triana]

168. I think it's the only way once over 40...

...because there just isn't anything out there for women that age - particularly if we don't WANT to live with or marry anyone. And there are the abusers, who are always searching for new victims to meet their insidious needs and who jump from one relationship to another and to the next and the next, as soon as they are confronted with their abuse and controlling behavior by their current "Mommy". Who needs it? Ugh.

[mountainvue]

170. I agree wholeheartedly. Why does everyone think

we need to be paired off? I am much happier with my life now.

[Triana]

171. It's the old atttitude that women can't take care of themselves...

...but they can. That's why this article / statistic is so significant. Men are expected to be independent but not women. I'm sure the mysogenists and fundies would have a shitfit over it, claiming that women's independence is 'threatening the family'. This is why, I think, that the patriarchy has always tried to keep women out of the workforce and still pays them less. To disable or thwart their ability to achieve independence. To keep them under the thumb of men and all that men choose to subject them to so that they cannot escape it.

But they are escaping it, anyway. In spite of, and not because of the patriarchy. It's really something to celebrate, IMO. I am so happy to be alive to see this sea change. It's hardly enough, but it IS something and it is something we all ought to be proud of and resolve NEVER to go back-to lives of dependence. Having a man in your life ought to be a choice, not a necessity for survival.

[ckramer]

5. Why American male hate American female, or vice versa

Is something wrong with our society?

[Warpy]

17. Maybe there's something wrong with MARRIAGE

I sure as hell don't want another one.

20 years of unwedded bliss here.

He's on #4.

[Maine-ah]

42. some people are meant for it others are not.

I wouldn't say there's anything "wrong" with marriage, other than it was wrong for you.

[Blue_Tires]

23. imo, our society puts too much emphasis on

financial wealth as a measuring stick for success---i.e., 'marriage material'

and there are other factors that we as americans may be too obsessive about, like looks, sex, kids, etc as we try to eternally find that nonexistent "perfect" person

[raccoon]

49. No. It's just that people, especially women, don't put up with as much crap as they used to.

Also, there's less social stigma attached to being divorced. Or never married.

[redqueen]

61. Yep!

That's it in a nutshell.

[Lost4words]

82. My wife says, A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

is she trying to tell me something?

edit spelling

[Megahurtz]

120. Especially the Crap part! n/t

[eridani]

164. The flip side of that is that people are less willing to cut each other slack--

--in the search for perfection. Given so many horror stories about the crap that people put up with in the past, that's understandable. We still haven't gotten to that golden mean yet though.

[Marnieworld]

56. The article said no such thing

It's not that there is any less companionship. It was the classification of "spouse" at home that it measured. There can be lots of love between or within the sexes that isn't measured by the word "marriage".

[SemperEadem]

106. it's not about society

it's about the fact that a woman is no longer defined by a husband. It's not necessary for her to marry if she chooses not to. It has nothing to do with women hating men: it has to do with women loving themselves and being comfortable in who they are without the definition of "Mrs. Him". It's about them recognizing that they don't want to put a husband ahead of themeselves and knowing that there is nothing wrong with having that mindset.

[DianeG5385]

6. Yeah baby, I'm divorced and don't want to have to deal marriage again

I don't think I'm good at it having been divorced twice and I'm not going to get married again to satisfy some social norm. I can afford to support myself and my kids, I have a large, supportive family and haven't really wanted to date. I don't know that marriage is all it's cracked up to be fantasy wise at least for me and my kids are super duper. How would marriage improve my life? I don't want to be controlled and that's a big issue for me.

[shanti]

19. i heard that!

:hi:

[lebkuchen]

101. To hell w/marriage. What about sex?

I'm no doctor, but I do swear by (on?) viagra and vibrators. If you don't have these, try pharmacy and "Good Vibrations" out of San Francisco. They deliver.

It seems logical that an active sex life is important to good health. I personally don't think marriage is a factor.

[citygal]

7. This is why * is spending

millions to promote marriage. Why our government is even preoccupied with funding such private decision making is puzzling. Maybe it would be better spent helping the homeless or providing health care to children...

[RazzleCat]

8. Interesting

I think its all about choice. 20 odd years ago we (women) did not have a choice, it was marriage or be a pariah in our society. I am divorced but in a committed relationship. I would like to be married again to the man I am with now, but I have a 15 year old son, right now combining our households would be a stupid and stressful exercise. I have hopes that after my son graduates high school and goes on to college of creating a single household with my honey. But I can say that finding a guy you can get along with after a certain age is very difficult. I have been single for over 13 years, dated a ton of guy's, most of which I had issues with, they were either to controlling, to immature or just not right. I believe that once you have your own home, and are in charge it becomes very difficult to work out the compromises necessary when two adults share a space.

[BluePatriot]

45. True...

"I believe that once you have your own home, and are in charge it becomes very difficult to work out the compromises necessary when two adults share a space."

Dingdingding we have a winner!!!

That is so true. As a woman, after living on my own a few years and then getting married I crave being completely in charge of my domain again at times.

[femrap]

57. W and the neocons hate women...

they want them returned to their 'natural' state of chattel. I'm NOT kidding.

Welcome to DU!

[SemperEadem]

107. which makes the RW feigned outrage

over the comments taken out of context which Sen. Boxer had with Dr. Rice this past week so glaringly hypocritical. Larua Bush took the same swipe at Rice about a month ago, but none of them said anything about that. Limpbutt call it 'a shot below the ovaires', but doesn't Rice represent the 'feminazis' he's always whining about? Isn't she the very example they're trying to correct with this ignorant funding initiative?

[femrap]

157. I thought what laura said to Condi

was personally mean....she meant to hurt Condi. And it got very little press.

Condi has been with * and neocons for a long time and she does as she is told. I think * and her are having an affair...therefore, the nasty comments by laura.

Boxer did nothing wrong....simply stating that Condi has no immediate family in harm's way....could have been nieces/nephews in the military.

Check out the National Women's Law Center. They keep updates on how the neocons have reduced women's rights in the past 6 years. And, of course, the MSM doesn't report it. (Like the Bureau of Labor no longer wants to count women in the workforce).

[ckramer]

9. Dr. Frasier Crane was divorced

His wife was also a PhD. They fought a lot. So on the surface, it seemed that one couple needs only one brain.

But 60 percent of the Asian women are married, only 30 percent of the black women are staying with a man.

Would it have something to do with the culture?

Are we having a bad culture here in US that is detrimental to marriage?



Seinfeld didn't want to get married;

George didn't want to get married;

Kramer didn't want to get married;

Elaine did want to get married, to Jerry, who didn't want to marry her.

What's wrong with us?

[WindRavenX]

10. or....maybe some of us don't want to get married?

:shrug:

[MattSh]

37. What's wrong with us?

If you get married,

Someone might get pissed when you want a wide-screen plasma TV. SO's hate it when you have your buds over for the big game. Instead, lets go shopping for some meaningless trinket that will break in three months.

your SO might spend your home equity loan on a new Lexus, instead of the boat you wanted.

you might have to forgo your plan to buy a new computer with more computing power than all of NASA had in the 60's.

Someone might want to you sacrifice for them. That's so 20th century. Remember in America, it's all about ME.

That goes for men and women.

For half the world, "happily ever after" means having a roof over your head and food on the table. In America, it means a six figure McMansion, two SUV's, basketball, soccer, tennis, croquet, chess lessons, and $5000 birthday parties for the kids.

But hey, that's why there's a whole world of women (or men). Twenty years with minimal dating in the US, engaged less than six months after meeting my foreign lady, married almost a year now. Plus it gets me an easy admission ticket to another country too. You just might need that some day. If you're discouraged with the local scene, I encourage you to try it.

[flying_wahini]

44. welcome to DU!

[AnneD]

112. I gave up on the dating scene and focused on raising my daughter...

Imagine my surprise when my friend for India proposed to me. He is an old fashioned guy, but loves being married to a progressive woman. I never guessed I'd marry again at age 48. It is much better this time because we went in to this with the idea that it was forever. We negated everything before we married. I went to his country and met the remaining family (this proved invaluable). It is very hard work these days, sometimes aggravating in fact, but it is a journey well worth it. Of course, I come from a long line of long lived and long married folks so I might have a genetic predisposition. I was lucky to have found my Prince (Prince Adequate-I am realistic- I live here , he is the optimist-he immigrated).

If he dies, will I ever remarry? Probably not-he would be hard to replace. I lived by myself so I am not afraid and I have planned for it. But it really is nicer to share.

[SemperEadem]

115. I'm not quite that bitter to outsource for affection

[Morgana LaFey]

54. YES! there's something wrong with our culture --

It's called PATRIARCHY. When women get a chance to opt out, many of them do. I'm not surprised at the stats at all -- or, actually, I'm surprised they're not a little higher on the side of women who are not married because some years ago -- and this has been the case right along -- polls showed that most women who were married weren't so crazy about marriage, and most men were. Also there've been studies showing that women who were married were less happy than men who were married -- marriage is GOOD for men, not so good for women.

And I can't help but point out that this statistic and the ones I mention are living proof of the reason that in the past women HAD to be economically and socially oppressed in ways tha would FORCE them to be married. In the days before 2nd Wave Feminism (pre-late 1960s), most jobs were simply closed to women, period. And wages have always been less for women, as they still are (70-something percent of what men make, and currently actually dropping again). Plus there was the horrible socials stigma of being an old maid, not fully normal. So women couldn't support themselves very well and were socially outcast -- powerful encouragements to marry.

But that wasn't the end of it! There were positive motivators too! Society made marriage SOUND like the very greatest thing in the world, something that would end all your problems and make you happy, complete and WHOLE. So fulfilling, so romantic, so ideal and comfortable, that it's a must for everyone, no exceptions.

For most people, the reality has NO relationship to the hype. Once the overpriced weddings and the honeymoon are over, reality sets in and people are left wondering what's wrong with THEM -- all that idealistic, romantic stuff makes everyone ELSE happy, doesn't it? SO it must be them.

I happen to be pro-marriage, but ONLY from more realistic viewpoing tha society's current one, and ONLY when it's a marriage between equals, which is rare even these days. My first marriage wasn't bad, but it sure wan't good, either. And from that I learned that for me (and no doubt many women), a mediocre marriage isn't good enough -- NO marriage is better than a mediocre marriage. Period, end of discussion.

If women can support themselves minimally, they'll NOT likely enter into permanent relationships where they aren't happy.

I think the bottom line is that men have to make themselves more marriagable, and that unfortunately includes developing much better attitudes about women. Judging from what I see on DU (men who consider themselves progressives and therefore SHOULD be quite pro-women and even feminist themselves but aren't), it'll be a long time before women ultimately find marriage something that enhances rather than detracts from their lives.

And oh -- one of the problems with men may be that they think cartoon and sitcom characters (or centerfold models) are accurate portrayals of reality. Just a thought.

[customerserviceguy]

66. Are you saying

it's impossible, or just too darn difficult, to find someone who is willing to have a partner-style marriage? All men want to control a woman? That sounds suspiciously like the "All men rape" graffiti I saw while at the University of Washington back in the 1970's.

As for sitcom role models, there hasn't been a pro-male one made since the 1960's. All men shown in modern sitcoms are pompous or stupid, and their wives are always intelligent, sensitive, and right. What message have those shows been sending to the kids who watch them?

[Lorien]

80. She didn't make any blanket statements, period.

She merely noted a trend. When extreme right wing beliefs are the norm in a society (ours), then YES, you do find many controlling men who are extremely disrespectful towards women. Not all, just many. Political and cultural belief have moved so far to the right in recent years that most "liberals" are centrists at best. It's not a good environment to live in if you're a woman with opinions and ambitions of your own.

And yes, I agree with you about the sitcoms. The message that's being sent to kids seems to be "boys; never grow up! Girls: men need mommies, no matter their age!" it's incredibly demeaning.

[Morgana LaFey]

124. I think one of the main messages is

Men can fuck up royally and at will and women will come along and clean up their messes and smile -- and still love them!, just as they continue to clean their houses and their clothes.

Women have too often been placed into the position of being the conscience and responsibility-keepers for men, allowing men a wonderful "out" and excuse for boorish or worse behavior. You see this in the kinds of rhetoric that still, ocassionaly surfaces: "women are the civilizers of men," or "women keep men out of trouble" and the like. It's faux compliment to women covering a ruse that lets men opt out of responsible behavior like I said, at will AND blame women (for not "civilizing" them better) when they do so. :puke:


BTW, the poster clearly missed my point re sitcoms, but did you as well? I'd encourage you to reread the post I was responding to.

I would also point out that sitcoms with men who are clearly dysfunctional in any number of ways are, in many cases, simply caricatures of common types and as such are exaggerated. But in addition, members of the DOMINANT CULTURE (white male) are the only ones who can routinely be made fun of in a comedic sense. If you start picking on women and minorities, you're a bully as well as a misogynist and a racist. So demeaning or not, that's what you're going to see. Plus, turning reality upside down like that (women = dominant, men = less powerful) continues to promote the myth that the situation for women is just fine, so what are they complaining about?


Ahh -- here it is. The quote I was looking for which explains what I just said much better, from Molly Ivins:

There are two kinds of humor. One kind that makes us chuckle about our foibles and our shared humanity -- like what Garrison Keillor does.
The other kind holds people up to public contempt and ridicule -- that's what I do. Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar. -- Molly Ivins
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/quotes/a/molly_ivins.htm

[Lorien]

135. I didn't miss your point re sitcoms. It's a valid point, as was his

(they were two separate points, really).I have a male feminist friend who is INFURIATED by sitcoms like "Everybody loves Raymond" where the bumbling child-like husband has a wife who acts as his mother (conscience). He admits that it's a true stereotype in some cases, but not every case. He's married and is a caregiver to his wife who is in poor physical and mental health; she doesn't work, drive, or participate much in any domestic chores. It's all up to him and he doesn't complain about any of it. He SHOULD hate the stereotype of men as irresponsible self centered boys because it simply doesn't fit him. He's also scientist who has fought year after year to help female coworkers get the raises and recognition they deserve when their male supervisors overlook them time and time again. He knows that women often get shafted in the workplace and he has joined the fight to end that. He doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the knuckle draggers.


In some families the woman is the more dominant of the two. My grandmother certainly was and my grandfather knew it. Equality is best, but it does often end up with one calling most of the shots-and it's not always the husband. Quite often, but not always.


Most sitcoms are satire these days. Shows like "Family ties" "The Cosby Show" and "Roseanne" laughed at our shared humanity while today's sitcoms hold up dysfunctional individuals for ridicule. It's all very mean spirited and demeaning to everyone-which is why I generally won't watch such garbage.


As a single female business owner in a male dominated field I DON'T think that today's situation for women is "just fine", but neither do I feel powerless. I hope I never will.

[SemperEadem]

116. Hey Morgana... just like you said in that other post

it's almost predictable, isn't it?

[Morgana LaFey]

126. Wearingly so...

wearingly so. :hi:

[Morgana LaFey]

125. I'm not going to play those games with you. Sorry.

After just a couple of threads I've had my belly completely full in another forum. I write fairly clearly. If you want to pile twisted meaning on top of what I actually said, that's your business and you're on your own. Maybe you can find some nice compadre to play those games with, eh?

I will, however, share something with you that I copied some time ago, when I was just lurking here. If I HAD said (or implied) "all men" I think this pretty much would answer your indignation:

VelmaD http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2314633#2314691
Thu Oct-05-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. I'm going to try to be honest with you...
without being mean. There's a reason sometimes all men get lumped together on this issue. It's because ALL women are impacted by it. There isn't a woman in this society, no matter how rich or pretty or republican-voting, who doesn't have the boundaries of her life hemmed in by the patriarchy. Being demure and subservient and a "good girl" will not save you. And since all women are effected whether they want to be or not...individual men are also not allowed to opt out. You don't get to go "I don't support the patriarchy" and all of a sudden not get the unearned advantages that come with being born male.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you feel like you're getting painted with a broad brush. But considering how many centuries women have had to put up with being painted as a group with the most unflattering stereotypes...learn to cope.


Great response. Well said, VelmaD!

[Triana]

153. (trophy) (trophy) (trophy) !!! Here, here!

:applause:

That's how you put the lid on the whiners about how "all men" get lumped together. Thank you VelmaD and MLF!! :hug:

[jgraz]

190. and Morgana goes right back on the ignore list

Stick to astrology, sweetie. You actually make more sense on that subject (sad to say).

[Scout]

191. lucky for Morgana! n/t

[jgraz]

192. My guess is she's one of the "luckiest" posters on DU

[femrap]

59. Life is NOT a TV show.....

it's just propaganda trying to pressure us into sterotypical roles so we can be more easily manipulated.

[PassingFair]

130. Um....maybe they aren't real people?

You forgot Murphy Brown.

:crazy:

[ckramer]

145. But Dr. Lilith Sternin was fully in control of her life.

But she didn't seem to be happy, did she?

I can't see how Frasier can love her, being over confident, over analytical, and systemetically meticulous - quality of a confident man.

Dr. Lilith Sternin announced she was leaving Frasier to live in with her lover, Dr Louis Pascal. Great! Typical behavior of a man.

Now look at that female station manager at KACL who had sex with Frasier. Is she well off, yes. Is she independent, yes. Is she happy? Hardly.

Look at the beautiful but pathetic woman Roz Doyle. Same story.



In my opinion, being in that 51% is not necessary a bliss for a woman. One day when the 51% increased to 71%, I am not sure if the world would be better for both sexes.



But surprise! Daphne Moon found her happiness! A perfect couple with Niles.

[HeeBGBz]

11. I haven't found anyone I even want to date

Let alone marry. So where's the 51% of the men who aren't espoused?

[spooky3]

28. I agree--I think the biggest problem is simply finding

people you don't meet at work, who aren't married and/or busy with kids, and many of us still have demanding jobs and volunteer work. When you are not in your 20s, you're out of place at a bar or batting eyelashes in the produce department.

[Triana]

34. ditto...

...not much out there as far as dating - esp. if you're not in your 20s or mid-thirties at the oldest. I h8 noisy bars, anyway.

[customerserviceguy]

68. I'm not saying you won't find creeps

but many people I know have been successful in Internet dating. I met my lady online back in September, 2005. She lives in NY, and we've had ten live, in-person meetings. She's met my family and friends, and I've done the same with hers, and everybody in our lives thinks we're meant for each other, as do we. I plan to move there in April.

I'll acknowledge it can be expensive (usually about 25 bucks a month for a good dating service) and frustrating (you'll encounter married men who just want to fool around), but it offers a chance for men who don't like the bar scene, and are not completely full of themselves ego-wise, to begin something with a person over more than an alcohol-induced haze.

[eridani]

165. All of the online marriages that I know about have turned out very well

Maybe it's the extensive verbal communication before you ever get around to finding out about the in-person chemistry thing?

[customerserviceguy]

179. I agree

that people should meet as soon as possible, before emotional attachment sets in. Besides, any marriage made from any sort of way of meeting has a 50/50 chance of going wrong. When you remove the fundies who would never get divorced from the numbers, the chances of a marriage surviving for normal people drops even lower.

I'm not against people remaining single, in fact, that's probably a better course to take when one has minor children still at home. It's really hard to give what it takes to make a marriage if somebody else has a prior, higher claim on your love and attention. I know that from having been a stepparent, and from getting custody of my son from a first marriage during a subsequent one.

Going online is just another avenue to potentially meet people, if you want to date, but don't want to find someone at work, in bars, through hobbies, or from fix-ups by friends. It's an active way of trying to look for what you want in your life, rather than waiting for it to just come to you.

[alarimer]

142. This is certainly true for me

not being very social, it is extremely difficult to find someone I like enough (or who likes me enough) to date, never mind establish a relationship. I can count on one hand the number of guys I have seen more than once. I never hear from them again after the first date. Or rarely. Which may say more about me than about them. I guess it is a numbers game. If you cannot meet lots of people, it is very hard.

And once you reach a certain age it becomes even more difficult. Although I have a number of younger admirers for some bizarre reason. But they are not looking for the same things as I am.

[Lorien]

62. I'm with you there

I haven't seriously dated anyone in 18 years. Fooled around with yes, but not seriously dated. I just haven't met anyone with the right combination of qualities I guess. I tried "settling" once in my youth; got engaged, moved in with the guy...it was a nightmare. Never again! Now I'll wait to find the right one, and if he never comes along then so be it!

[lebkuchen]

95. What are your interests?

Pursue them with a passion (if you aren't already), and let the cards fall where they may.

[daleo]

12. Marriage can definitely have its highs and lows

I think part of the problem is that 25+ years with the same person can lose its novelty, to say the least. I don't just mean sex - I mean conversation, and all sorts of routine interactions as well. It is hard to keep a friendship going that long, let alone an intimate relationship.

This probably wasn't so much of a problem when lifespans were much shorter, on average. The average length of a relationship would have been much shorter during most of human history (one or the other would probably die before they were 50), so the optimum pair bond length that we have evolved for is probably much shorter than we now tend to live.

[llmart]

25. Your analysis is correct.....

I lived with my parents and siblings a total of 18 years (the first 3 or 4 years of your life you don't really remember so you can subtract those). I've lived with my spouse for 38 years, and we're not even 60 yet. It is unrealistic to expect any relationship to last that long when living together day after day (after day after day after day......)

We have to ask ourselves how much of what we've been fed by our culture is really true? Are humans really monogamous? I don't think so. I don't think we were meant to be. We need to break down the myths of relationships.

Women today are able to get along without a man for financial support. Our culture has changed quite a bit for women. Many have found they can have a very well-rounded, satisfactory life without being married.

[customerserviceguy]

71. Well

my folks have been married for 54 years, and are just as happy with each other as they've always been. The only distress I see is when one of them has a failing-health episode. Last year, when my father came back on his hospital floor after surgery, Mom said, "There goes the love of my life." When she came back from tumor surgery in a salivary gland, Dad fetched her wedding ring from her personal belongings, and put it back on her finger with all the reverence he did back in 1952.

They don't get out much, not even to church anymore, but they enjoy every single day they still have. Even in mock arguments over college football (Dad was born in Ohio, and he protested Mom's cheering on of Florida to really whip the Buckeyes!) you still see an affection that makes you glad they found each other. Someday, maybe I'll be so lucky...

[daleo]

158. I didn't mean to imply people couldn't have happy relationships of long standing

I meant the hypothesis in a statistical sense. Certainly there would be a good percentage of people who don't have trouble with maintaining 50 year relationships. I suppose they offset the ones who can't handle even five years.

And just knowing that it isn't as easy as the romantic stories would have us believe can help people to overcome these other problems, like boredom.

[eridani]

166. Some famous sociologist once said--

Divorce has become a functional substitute for death. The flip side of the extended longevity thing is that your chances of seeing a 50th wedding anniversary have never been better.

[all.of.me]

13. Yeah!

Eight and a half years here. Raising two girls by myself. I wouldn't dream of adding another relationship to this household. I have two, and I feel I need to focus on them. Then when they are out of school and on their own (just five more years! more yeah!), I am looking forward to my freedom. I don't see a man fitting into that scenario, either.

Women needed men in the 50s. They did not work, they kept house and raised kids. Now we have high paying jobs, and the relationship is not a necessity like it used to be. We are capable of taking care of ourselves.

[Triana]

35. Yeah!

...and dont have to put up with crap and abuse to have a roof over our heads - cause it's OUR roof.

[all.of.me]

43. That's what kept me in that relationship an extra two years.

I had no idea what I was going to do financially! The kids were 4 & 8, and I was scared to death, but finally I just went ahead and trusted that it would all be ok. It was a few years of struggle, but now it is so worth it. I know that I am capable of taking care of myself (and two others).

[Triana]

46. that is key...

..women are finding out that they can take care of themselves (and their kids!) and don't need to rely on someone else. It's a GOOD thing.

[all.of.me]

47. It's WONDERFUL!

:)

[Nite Owl]

14. I loved being married

to my husband but since he passed away there hasn't been another. It's not the marriage it's the person. Now after bringing up two boys on my own, being financially stable on my own and making all my own decisions I don't know if I could marry again. Right now I rather like making all the decisions on my own, it is very empowering.

[OKthatsIT]

136. Its that damn closet....its just too damn small.

LOL...yup, I hear ya.

[Lisa]

15. almost 40, never married

I guess the old-fashioned term is "spinster"? Luckily my parents haven't put the pressure on me to have grandchildren. BTW, I'm Asian, so I guess I'm one of the unattached minority (in more ways than one!).

[lebkuchen]

99. Have you read Mary Daly's book "GYN/Ecology?

She deconstructs much of the old fashioned, nevertheless well-entrenched, terminology, like "spinster."

The functioning of the word spinster to contort women's minds into double-double think is clear. It has been a powerful weapon of intimidation and deception, driving women into the "respectable" alternative of marriage, forcing them to believe, against all evidence to the contrary, that wedlock will be salvation from a fate worse than death, that it will inevitably mean fulfillment. The alternatives, traditionally, have been the roles of prostitute, nun, or mistress. In more recent times, another alternative is the life-style of "swinging single," euphemistically called "bachelor girl." The process of re-claiming the meaning of spinster does not follow the route of affirming the "freedom" of the "swinging" bachelor girl, which is simply a variation on the theme of prostitute/mistress/wife. Instead it begins with reversing the reveral, seeing the basic unfreedom in all these feminine roles.

...

In essence, the Spinster is a witch. She is derided because she is free and therefore feared. Since derision is not powerful enough to stop her spinning, she is the object of attack by propaganda. Any cursory reading of a typical children's fairy tale book gives overwhelming evidence of the campaign against witches, which includes mothers, stepmothers, wicked queens, ogresses. It is not accidental that in the story of Sleeping Beauty, the princess is cursed to prick her finger on a spindle which causes her to fall asleep for one hundred years, until she is awakened by her prince. More adept Spinsters are not falling asleep, not waiting to be awakened, but awakening and waking each other by our Presence.

[Lisa]

147. and the Three Fates!

Busy spinning out the threads of human lives. I haven't read the Daly book, but it sounds interesting ... Lloyd Alexander's books have a take on the Fates which puts a feminist "spin" on their traditional image.

[lebkuchen]

160. The chapter on Chinese footbinding is distressing

not to mention the chapters on African genital mutilation, and European witchburning, which she then cross-references with Nazi medicine and American gynecology.

Considering how little women are valued in most of the world, I think it's to American women's credit that they are taking a big step away from the poor treatment and enjoying life on their own terms. The originating article itself will no doubt influence women in other countries.

[Hekate]

167. Does Daly acknowledge that is was/is women who subjugate their daughters?

My husband once said a shocking thing to me about my own mom: "It's the mothers who bind their daughters' feet."

In cultures that are _that_ repressive of women, women themselves are in charge of seeing their daughters are mutilated, whether by FGM or footbinding.

In cultures that are a lot less repressive, which would consider such practices barbaric, mothers are still in charge of socializing their daughters to know their proper places. We/they participate.

Hekate

[lebkuchen]

173. She ties in religious myth to the hocus pocus rituals harmful to women

Women have not only been involved in these rituals/beliefs to hurt their own daughters, but subscribe to the beliefs themselves, hurting themselves. How many Christian women have remained with an abusive spouse "for better or worse, till death do us part" inspite of the obvious danger to themselves?

[Karenina]

176. And to their children!!!

How many women simply "look the other way" when abuse occurs under their noses? I cannot imagine any worse psychic slavery than having been conditioned that holding on to a man is a necessity in this life.

I can imagine neither marrying again (kids are grown) nor living with someone without retaining my own abode. I require a LOT of time alone and most men expect to be put in the center. Or they become jealous of the music, or they have problems that I have very close (platonic/sibling) male friends. "Sweetie, where are my______?" I say "WHO NEEDS THAT CRAP!"

The guys that hit on me are rarely more than 5 years older than my first kid. It's flattering :blush: but the very idea is ridiculous! (Unless during Karneval one gets taken over by da urge for a roll in the hay!) :silly:

[lebkuchen]

177. Hi Karenina!

Yeah, it is so sad to see the # of kids raised with poor parental role models, in situations that are psychologically/physically unhealthy--with an "adult" letting it happen.

Case in point: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16669557/

The "own abode" situation has worked very well for me. However, I am considering renting to my good friend--he will be staying in the kellar and will be permitted to visit me upstairs from time to time. :) That way, I can make a few extra $, and if it doesn't work out, we can at least say we had some great candlelight dinners. I love living in a wine region for that reason, and IPOD is so much fun when choosing dinnertime music.

Look at all the famous men married to women young enough to BE their daughters. Still not interested in living that scenario in reverse? ;)

[Karenina]

182. Ehrlich gesagt

My young buddies make MUCH BETTER FRIENDS. Trustworthy, loyal, steadfast and solid friends. Their Alpha WM status makes them perfect "Rittern ohne Furcht und Tadeln." They REALLY look out for me in ways that I NEVER, EVER experienced in the U.S. Their wives and SOs are just put on notice to "deal with it" like they would have to if I were "one of the boys from school days." (That's not a huge problem, though, as I'm a kid magnet and am happy to relieve mom for an afternoon or just spend time with her without him OR the kids. I bring my AA "extended family conciousness" to my new Heimat and it functions quite well).

My male friends have told me since I was in my teens, "I relate to you like another guy." Of course there were times when that was devastating; it was tied to being de-sexed because of my colour. At the same time, I was part of the ONLY GENERATION IN HISTORY that could have sex without the fear of pregnancy, disapprobation or DEATH. I took full advantage and will never regret how I learned to relate to those männliche creatures during those years. There's nothing new under the sun. ;-)

OH! Other than Roger Cicero!!! If you like crooners with a swinging big band a la Frank, DO CHECK HIM OUT!!! The CD is entitled "Männersachen," the lyrics are in Deutsch (and FUCKING BRILLIANT, it's really a first).
A taste:

Zieh die Schuh aus!

ich bin ein Sammler ein Jäger
ein guter Ernährer
ein Schrauber ein Dreher
ein Ganz-Früh-Aufsteher
ein Broker ein Seller
ein Intellektueller
ein Helfer ein Heiler
im Grunde ein Geiler

bin ein Schöpfer ein Macher
Beschützer Bewacher
ein Forscher ein Retter
adretter Jet setter
gedstählter Don Juan
ein Bild von einem Mann
so steh ich vor Dir
und höre dann:

Zieh die Schuh´aus!
bring den Müll raus!
paß aufs Kind auf!
und dann räum hier auf!
geh nicht spät aus!
nicht wieder bis um eins
Ich verstehe was du sagst
Aber nicht was du meinst

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[shanti]

16. that would be me too

:) interesting to see that i'm in the majority. i've been divorced for 15 years, no bf for 3, and pretty happy with my life. it seems like it's MEN who have more problems being single (after a divorce), not women. and it's a fact that women initiate divorces more than men.

sure, it would be nice to have a man in my life again, but i'm not trying to make it happen. if it happens, it will. life goes on. women KNOW that they will spend a significant amount of time alone and they accept it better.

[spooky3]

31. I think many--NOT ALL--men who are 40 or older have not adjusted

to the women's movement from way back. Some advertise in the personals column for women 10-20 years younger than they are. Some are fine with women with careers as long as these women do all the "traditional" things well too and don't have any career complaints they have to listen to. Some want women who are slim (unusual in the post menopause years) and attractive even though they aren't--(uh, buddy, that usually works only when you are mega-wealthy and the woman is shallow and grasping, another throwback). Those who successfully manage a career & exercise, and keep their homes well-maintained and decorated are thought to be gay (so they think), so if they do two out of three they think that's great.

These aren't good partners for women who have evolved.

[Triana]

36. That's what I see a lot of - 40+ men want younger women...

...who are slim. I am, and work at it, but - uh - that goes TWO ways - oh and I'm WAY too old for most men my age. I am not turned on by beer bellies and trouser cleavage. Men - if they want attractive women who take care of themselves - should take the same care with themselves as they expect women to do. And they really DO need to get out of the 60s and 70s and adjust their expectations a little bit. (OK - a LOT)

"These aren't good partners for women who have evolved." <<---- exactly!

[zalinda]

18. I'm in the majority too

Young guys hit on me all the time for sex (which is weird to me), but I am not into casual sex, which is usually pretty blah, when a guy doesn't think he's ever going to see you again.

I've looked at dating sites, and men my age don't want women my age, they want younger. And then there's the rudeness, you email back and forth and then nothing. Hey, a little common courtesy, say you're sorry, but not interested.

So, I've been single for about 28 years now, but not because I want to be. I just won't live a miserable life to not be alone.

zalinda

[lebkuchen]

104. I hope you find a share partner

to share life's highlights with.

[LanternWaste]

123. For a weird guy, he had a couple of accidental truths in him...

"So, I've been single for about 28 years now, but not because I want to be. I just won't live a miserable life to not be alone."


I commiserate over this myself with a bottle of wine every year or two and keep going back to what a friend told me many, many years ago...

"Better to be miserable because you're alone than miserable because you're with someone"

For a weird guy, he had a couple of accidental yet absolute truths in him.


(Not that I'm inferring you're miseable nor implying I am...)

[devilgrrl]

20. That must mean that about the same amount of men are living without a spouse!

:wow:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

29. Less shock value there...men are strong, independent and love the rugged solitary life.

We women need them to protect us and care for us. It's shocking that we could exist without them, especially in these numbers!

My husband and I are having seismic shifts in our marriage as I've gotten promotions and salary increases over the last five years in which he either made a lot of money or was laid off for months at a time. Two years ago, he got a job working at the same company I'm at...no stress there!

We slotted ourselves into those idiotic stereotypes when we first got married...now it remains to be seen how well we adjust to the major changes in our dynamics.

I sure do love him, though. And, we have a great kid together.

F***ing societal "norms". They'll screw you up every time. MKJ

[dsc]

40. No because men are far less likely to have long widowhoods

they either remarry or die in many cases.

[Tesha]

64. No; a large cohort of the unmarried women are widowed...

> That must mean that about the same amount of men
> are living without a spouse!

No; a large cohort of the unmarried women are widowed.
That means the men they were married to aren't divorced,
they're dead!

So a smaller percentage of men are unmarried.

Tesha

[Lorien]

74. No, America is 57% female, 43% male, and 13% of men are gay

while only 2% of women are lesbians. That's a statistic from about eight years ago, but the same is probably true today.

[REP]

21. Jeez, So NOW I'm Getting Married !!

After 14+ years, I finally said yes - but we're both over 40 and this will be the first marriage for both of us, so I guess we're bucking several trends at once.

[femrap]

67. Don't let that 'piece of paper'

change your relationship. That INSTITUTION of marriage has a funny way of changing people.

Good luck.

[REP]

181. Guess You Missed the "14+ Years" Part...

If either one of us were the kind of person who could be "changed" by a piece of paper, we wouldn't be marrying each other! We've been together since we were in our mid-twenties; now we're in our early 40s; we're not kids who barely know each other rushing into something jumped up on hormones and lust. This isn't going to make either one of want to become parents, either - another reason we're marrying each other! Oddly enough, we're doing this in part for the legal ramifications (wills, etc) as well as the romantic aspect.

[Blue_Tires]

22. evidently that 51% all have boyfriends when i ask them out

:evilgrin: :shrug:

[ForPeace]

85. I was happily married

but my husband died five years ago. If I get married again I lose the medical insurance he worked so hard to earn for us and also wouldn't be eligible to get his social security. As long as retirement and health care are dependent on not getting married I think we'll see more and more women opting for the single life. If Bush is serious about promoting marriage he should push to change policies that discourage it.

Edited for: supposed to be reply to original message :-(

[Blue_Tires]

134. welcome to the site!!

[tavalon]

27. And there is a substantial number who just do things differently

and so would answer that they "were living without a spouse". I would, for instance. Because there is no marriage certificate. Of course, I live with three partners that I intend to be with for as long as the love shall last (five years so far). So, really, did the survey include delving in to the myriad of different relating situations that people are in these days. Did the lesbians end up showing up as not being married for instance? And so on. And actually, if my family dissolved, I don't really feel like I would have much interest in starting up something else but then, that's been most of my adult life - I just go with the flow and interesting things just come up.

Edited to add: What I was trying to say is that this survey strikes me as having a big heterosexual monogamistic angle and so, to my reckoning doesn't really tell me much I'm interested in.

[raccoon]

30. Happily single here, and in my 50's.

I wouldn't mind being married if it was a happy marriage. If it added to my life in some way.

I've had two real long-term serious relationships, where I considered marriage.

In both of those, things started out good (of course) and later the men became verbally abusive and generally no fun to be around. I'd rather be alone than in a relationship like that.

[Triana]

38. verbal abuse....

....seems to be epidemic these days. I've had that issue too. Either it has become epidemic as women have evolved, or it is just now being acknowledged as abuse, whereas before, it wasn't (because it hasn't yet become physical abuse - but it usually does eventually).

And I think (some) women haven't quite learned that they don't HAVE to tolerate it these days and how to set boundaries in their relationships and not be codependent. I didn't figure that out until I had survived an incredibly abusive situation. I'm not surprised that many women are just opting out and leaving the knuckle-draggers with the clubs alone in their caves. bytheway, vibrators are wonderful things. ;)

I'll be DAMNED if I'll put up with that (abuse) anymore (I am learning not to - it's respect, or the door, they can choose). Like you, I'd rather be ALONE than put up with that! It's healthier - in more ways than one.

[FormerDem06]

83. funny thing is, amongst our married friends the verbal abuse is going the other way...

I hear the women berating the guys moreso than the other way around these days. Thankfully, my wife and I don't have that problem, but we were friends first and that has worked out well over four years of friendship, eight years of marriage and two wonderful kids later.

I think that our society is in trouble though. I thoroughly believe that little boys DO need a dad in their life who is a strong role model to turn out completely okay. Most of friends who didn't have that can't stay in a relationship for very long it seems, and most that did have that are happily married and understand that a relationship is an equal partnership.

Some things are learned behaviors I guess.

[Triana]

90. Definitely...

verbal abuse can go both ways. It's more often men who are abusers, but that does not mean women don't do it too. I've SEEN them do it. It's just as bad.

[Lorien]

84. I certainly see it as an epidemic

I've experienced it with at least half the men I've dated, and physical abuse from one. Just two weeks ago the mask came off the guy I've been seeing for the past seven months. I had a minor disagreement with him (our first) and ended up wondering if his massive temper tantrum was going to leave me black and blue! Needless to say things have cooled off. A lot. I told a girlfriend (58) about the situation and she replied "Oh, men are all like that Just give him his space and he'll come around". ALL like that?? I think not. It's incredibly sad that so many women will settle for such treatment. I'm with you; being alone is far healthier than living with any type of abuse.

[Triana]

92. Uummm...

...if you're having to worry that any interaction with him will leave you bruised (emotionally or physically) you probably ought to opt out of that arrangement. Not to tell you what to do but...you're right they're NOT all like that. And you should not put up with that! I asked a counsellor about how to handle this. She said: the first time they do it (get really angry, yell, call names, seem more interested in blaming you for an issue than looking at their own behavior or role in the issue or controlling you instead of themselves, become verbally or physically abusive -- or if you don't feel safe around them), address it with them and express concern about the ability to resolve issues in a healthy way going forward. Mention that if issues can't be resolved in a non-harming, fair and respectful (respect is key) manner then it's better not to be in that relationship. After that, if it happens again - show 'em the door.

ONE warning. MAYBE two max. That was her advice. Good luck, whatever you decide!

[Lorien]

113. Oh, I agree

he didn't get physical, but his reaction was so over the top that I was really worried that he might. I told him as much and he apologized profusely-but one more strike and he's out. I simply can't respect anyone who has so little control over their temper (hardly a sign of maturity). It upsets me greatly that my friend believes that such behavior is entirely normal and to be expected. I'm worried now about what's really going on with her and the man she's living with.:-(

[uberllama42]

32. I have no real incentive to get married

I'm 19 years old, and I have witnessed 19 years of my parents hating each other and wanting to get divorced. The only reason they're still together is that they cannot afford to be divorced. I don't know of any married couple I would consider "happily married," so I have no model for what a happy marriage might look like. Scary as it might be for our society, I can't see a lot of people my age deciding to get married if they don't really want to. I know I'm not going to make that kind of a sacrifice just to keep society going. Besides, if I did, I would probably end up with a failed marriage anyway.

[flying_wahini]

52. don't let your parent's lousy marriage ruin it for you

as you get older you will know what you need to sustain your heart - and will know what won't.
Perhaps it will help you know who NOT to marry.
Just try and stay single until you get your head together. I changed a LOT during my 20's and
had several marriage proposals, but chose to live alone until I figured me out.
It was the best thing in the world, I was stronger emotionally and knew what I needed.

[uberllama42]

96. good advice, I think

I really can't speak for what the next 10 or 20 years will teach me. That's just where I am right now. I'm fairly sure the birth of my brother and me (twins and an unplanned pregnancy) had a lot to do with my parents being stuck in a marriage that they were starting to want out of. As you said, I have a pretty good model of what not to get myself invovled in. I'm certainly open to anything better which happens to present itself, though.

[spooky3]

33. Check out this interesting book:

Bella DePaolo

Singled Out: How Singles are Stereotyped, Stigmatized, and Ignored, and Still Live Happily Ever After (Hardcover)

(at Amazon.com) "DePaulo fastidiously defines the various categories of singlehood-divorced, widowed or just plain never been married-and gives their struggle a voice in this intriguing cultural study. According to DePaulo, "singlism" is the pervasive discrimination single people face in politics and everyday life, though DePaulo makes it clear he isn't equating it with racism or sexism. Rather, DePaulo uncovers society's immediate associations-conscious and otherwise-with the word "single," including the implication of loneliness, homosexuality and/or a personal defect that prevents a single person from achieving the dubiously enshrined goal of marriage. In addition, this exhaustive study reveals how marriage has come to represent the foundation of both American society and politics, and how the resulting system of discrimination pervades even in this modern age of financial freedom-including increased tax burdens, decreased social security benefits, and real-world wage disparity. In identifying the stigmas of being single and debunking myths like "marrieds know best," DePaulo has given this complicated subject the attention and respect it deserves, opening a dialogue without offering any pat solutions."
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

[femrap]

70. I want to read this book....

and BTW, the author is a 'she,' not a 'he.'

[Le Taz Hot]

39. OK, after reading all the threads

bashing marriage and trust me, I and my husband are on #3, I've got to say, when it's right (rare), it is unbelievable. That whole soul mate things that I spent years denigrating? Guess what? It's very real and it's better than I ever could have imagined.

I spent lots of very very happy single years. Loved it. Made good money, bought my own home, took vacations, all of it and I don't regret one day of it. I'm just saying marring CAN be something incredibly wonderful IF it's the right person.

Sorry. Carry on.

[shanti]

58. it sounds like

the old saw, "third time works like a charm" was meant for you. i've been divorced twice too, but not interested in trying again. but i will say that when bluebird of happiness lands on your doorstep, don't let it get away!

peace

[Tesha]

69. What Le Taz Hot said... (NT)

[Lisa]

148. good for you!

I'm definitely not anti-marriage -- I'm at the age where many of my friends are tying the knot for the 2nd or 3rd time, and I'm pleased to report that several of them are having a wonderful adventure. It's kind of exciting to know that there is a lot of hope for people trying new relationships after age 40 (countering the "standard wisdom" that I might as well just stop looking, or settle for somebody who is not at all compatible).

[Nite Owl]

161. That's the point I was trying to make

My marriage was incredible and I don't think it is something you can have more than once. It isn't just being married, it's that person that if you are really lucky you will be able to share life with. I was lucky, I don't think it could ever happen again.

[Massachusetts]

41. What will Homo sapiens think of next?

Stay tuned.

[slackmaster]

48. Yet women still don't get equal pay for equal work

The desk is stacked against a woman trying to run a household on her income alone.

Some of them, my ex included, manage to do well in spite of it, but many do not.

[flying_wahini]

50. after 25 years of marriage - I have to say that being married is no picnic

BUT- I love my husband and we have a very good marriage,
having said that, I lived alone and was self supporting until I was 30, and that had everything to do with my happy marriage now.
Most people in general, marry too young and usually just do it because it is the next step in what
I like to call Dot to Dot living; 'Merican style ....
I think that women who manage to stay single until 40 are usually quite strong emotionally and
are happier than women who marry too young.

[shanti]

60. you're probably right

i married at 18 (big mistake), again at 34, now 51 and single for 15 years. with kids and all, i've NEVER lived alone. however, this will change in less than 18 months (yeah!).

if i could do my life over again, i'd wait until at least 30 to marry.

[lebkuchen]

102. Why marry at all?

Some Catholic asked me at my Xmas dinner table what my relationship was with my dinnermate.

I told him, "We're living in sin."

[SemperEadem]

118. Well done!!!

[lebkuchen]

174. Then he asked

"Who tolerates whom more?"

If a relationship has reached the point of mutual toleration, isn't the couple better off moving on?

[LuckyLib]

133. My phrase is "I've been married, and I've been single. They are both highly over-rated!"

[shrike]

51. Married relatively late (36), and prefer marriage to singledom

But I'm rather unique amongst the women I know. Those who were married and now single much prefer the latter. I would remarry if my husband passed, but only if the guy were as good a chum as he is. Now that I'm older, things like status, income mean much less. He'd have to be a guy I love to hang around with.

[customerserviceguy]

73. I'd guess

that instead of your friends, who married early for the wrong reasons, you took the time to find out who you were as a person, before you tried to integrate your life with another person's life. What dooms so many relationships to failure is the willingness of a woman to "Gumby" herself to have and keep a man, nobody can keep that up for very long and stay sane.

[Lerkfish]

77. LOL! "Gumby" herself? that's a great quote.

I may use that sometime.

[shrike]

91. I think you're right

It seems to take a long time, and a dash of emotional maturity, for men and women to look at each other as equals and companions.

And yeah, women do Gumby themselves, don't they? It amazes me at times: they "set their cap" for a certain guy and turn themselves inside out trying to "land" him. I've even seen women do a guy's laundry and iron his shirts.

OTOH, both sexes can be a little shallow when picking a mate. He likes the way she looks, or she thinks he's going to make so much money she'll never have to work again.

[customerserviceguy]

180. The old way

was to get married as soon as possible, so you can get started on making many babies for the next generation, and raise them before you died in your 50's. With our modern day society needing educated people, most folks aren't ready to take on the burdens of ordinary everyday working life until some time in their mid twenties, anyway. We live much longer lives than our great-grandparents did, and we need to be choosier about who we would like to spend the rest of that life with.

But our biology, especially our hormones, is calibrated for a prehistoric life that was nasty, short and brutish!

[shrike]

188. Ain't that the truth. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

185. There are male golddiggers too

I know from experience. He tried to nag me to death and very nearly succeeded.

[shrike]

187. LOL n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

53. I'm single! Come and get it, ladies! Belch. (Why again am I single?)

Scratches overweight belly and wonders...

[Megahurtz]

121. Lol! n/t

[Yavin4]

55. Makes Me Feel Sorry For Women In Prior Generations

Who had to stay in bad marriages in order to survive.

[lebkuchen]

94. In Japan you can't get a divorce w/o the husband's permission

At least that's the way it was on Okinawa. Fortunately, the drunken former husband signed the paperwork. When my friend brought the paperwork into the county office for processing (w/the husband outside in the car, too ashamed to come in), the office din, with typing and telephone calls, came to a halt, and workers approached the counter to inquire what my friend would do without a husband, what would become of her child?

She said, "It's none of your business!"

The US is about 40 years ahead of that mentality, which isn't a lot.

[Morgana LaFey]

128. Or get married in the first place in order to survive

And yes, stay married -- often to abusers, alcoholics, etc., etc., etc. and too often (pre 1960s) with a dozen kids to try to raise (dozen = literally or figuratively).

[Lerkfish]

63. tangent: when my first wife passed, all sorts of people kept trying to fix me

up with unmarried friends of theirs. I appreciated the concern, but was having trouble dealing with my grief and didn't want to become immediately entangled in another relationship.
I eventually became part of a widow/widower counseling group and found that society has a double standard:
widows are not immediately bombarded with dating offers, but men are. I think both extremes are not helpful.
Widowers do not need to be immediately "fixed" and widows should not be abandoned, if they don't wish to be.

I'm just sayin


:shrug:

[femrap]

72. I always wondered about that, Lerkfish....

I wonder why that is....maybe society feels a woman can cope alone and a man can't? I've seen that the widow is sometimes abandoned by her married friends....no more invitations because she is a 3rd wheel.

Sometimes I think our culture (esp. regarding gender roles) sucks.

[Lerkfish]

76. agreed, its sucks and it seems counterproductive.

I hesitate to misogynist, but it certainly seems that way.
If the desired goal of the friends is to remarry the widowed, I do not understand why that goal should IMMEDIATE for the widower, but not so for the widow.

I'm not saying that getting remarried is always the right thing, but society certainly seems to indicate it wants that.

My feeling was that a widower was seen as a "good catch", with the assumption being he was marriageable and became involuntarily single (as opposed to divorce). But at the same time, the widow seems to be "used goods".

Its horribly wrong and unfair, and as a widower I can tell its unfair to us, too, because it presumes we want to forget the wife we love and immediately replace her, as if that were possible, in a very short amount of time, which is unhealthy, too.

[Maine-ah]

98. exactly what happend to my Mom.

[Lerkfish]

105. that's unfair and unfortunate.

my thoughts out to your mom.

[Triana]

172. My Dad's wife (my stepmom) died and...

..within a week or two he was dating someone else who someone fixed him up with. When my stepfather died, Mom got no such 'support'. Society seems to only want to support half their population (women) when they conform to certain roles. When those roles dissolve - whether by choice or by life events, women are shunned and support is withheld and they are abandoned by society. That's one reason elderly women are among the poorest in society - they're just supposed to rot and die after a certain age, I guess. Maybe that speaks to the need for women to have good friends and friendships that aren't dependent on their marital or partner status. Problem is, so many of them are, by default.

Sucks indeed.

Even when we break up with a partner, the mutual 'friends' we had as a couple take sides, most often with the male. Females seem to get the brunt of the blame for the failed relationship and they seem to be the ones 'frozen out' by the 'friends' they had as a couple. Or, that's been my experience. But that's part of the 'nice guy' veneer that the couples' mutual 'friends' see. They often don't know what the guy was like in his intimate relationships. Often, he was not such a 'nice guy' to HER in private. But - no one will ever believe that. Society has strange, gullible attitudes, sometimes.

[Kber]

87. My grandfather experienced the same thing

He'd never lived alone in his life - went from his parents' home to a boarding house in college to setting up shop with my grandmother.

He was well into his 80's when he lived alone for the first time, and he felt that most people seemed to think it was "unnatural" or something. He actually enjoyed a few years of quiet. One memorable family moment about a year after he became a widower, my aunt was trying to get him to buy a hearing aid, but he wanted to get a new computer instead. After a few minutes or arguing the merits, he finally stamped his feet, like a little boy almost, and said, "look , I don't want a hearing aid and mother's dead, so she can't make me get one now!"

Which pretty much ended the conversation.

[kineneb]

65. married now for 25 years

and will stay that way until Hubby dies (est. about 5 years- serious health issues :-( )

After this effort of being a full-time caregiver, I think I will take the rest of my life as a sort of "vacation" (I am 48). The mortgage is so low that it would be ridiculous for me to move, so I will probably take in a friend as a boarder. We can be two cranky old gals, living out life in peace.

[Arugula Latte]

75. I am lucky I have a caring, sensitive husband, however,

in my experience, men like him are few and far between (probably most of them are hanging out on DU). If I were not married to him, I would vastly prefer to be single than to live with most of the men I've known.

[silverweb]

78. Another happy member of the 51%!

I'm one of those who's much happier living alone.

Hubby #1 is dead and #2 has been MIA for 15+ years -- and I'm not even close to being interested in pairing up with anyone again.

[yardwork]

79. The U.S. government won't let me marry my partner

so I'm happily living as a "single" lesbian. If the pro-marriage folks don't like that, maybe they should take another look at their attitudes toward the millions of us who are queer. Just sayin!

[Lisa]

149. funny, isn't it!

Certain people keep up a constant barrage of "why don't you settle down and get married?" -- but they sure change their position 180 degrees when one hints at going to Vancouver or Toronto to obey their directives!

[yardwork]

175. Yes - kind of exposes their hypocrisy, doesn't it? lol!

[Lisa]

183. indeed!

I have a rather nosy co-worker who used to keep making coy hints to her single female colleagues that it was about time to settle down and raise a family, and that it was our moral/ethical duty to do so, or we were abandoning our femininity. Several of us decided to have some fun with her and began asking for hints on planning weddings ... of the same-sex variety. She has been oddly silent since then.

[superconnected]

81. And loving every minute of it!

I think pointing it out is archaic though.

People who want a spouse should have one and not be attacked for it.

People who don't should also not be attacked for their decision.

There is happiness on both sides of the fence. Pointing it out makes me remember when married people used to want single people to conform to their choice - of believing you _had_ to have a partner or you were "gay" or smth was wrong with you.

[Kber]

86. I guess you could count my mother as on the the happy singles

She's been living with a wonderful man for years now - my kids call him grandpa.

Every year or so, he asks her to marry him, she says "no", he says "thank god" and they go on with their lives.

Once, she asked him why he keeps asking her when they both know that neither wants to ever be married again. He agreed that he didn't really want to get married, but he'd rather be married than be without her, so he likes to do a yearly "temperature check" to make sure she's still cool with their situation.

Kinda sweet in a post-romantic way.

For me, I've known my husband 15 years, been married 13+, am glad I did, and if he asked me again today I'd say yes in a New York minute. But that's us.

[Karenina]

103. That is SOOO sweet!

Your post made my day! Next time you see them, give them both a (((BIG HUG))) from a stranger across the big pond that they'll never meet.

[Taverner]

88. The Dobson Mafia must love this stat

[mary_unbound]

89. One of the few ways

in which I qualify as part of a majority.

[lebkuchen]

93. Marriage is a sacrament.

I'm not religious.

[distantearlywarning]

97. As someone recently posted in the Lounge:

"For all those men who say, 'Why buy the cow when you can get the milk
for free'? Here's an update for you: Nowadays 80% of women are against
marriage, why?


Because women realize it's not worth buying an entire Pig, just to
get a little sausage."

:evilgrin:

[Triana]

111. LOL - LOVE it!!

thank you. I'm saving this one.

[Megahurtz]

122. Hahahahahahahaha!!!

:rofl:

Good one!

[Lilith Velkor]

169. Why buy a pig when the sausage is free?

Fucking brilliant! :rofl:

[bitchkitty]

100. Hoooooooo boy, I could write a book.

But I find these figures very heartening, because I've long felt that our fairytale ideals of love and marriage are a setup for failure right from the beginning.

Not that marriage doesn't work, it can be a beautiful, lifelong thing, but not all people are meant to be couples - me, for example! Throughout my childhood and early adulthood, despite having a high IQ, I prepared myself for one thing - to get married. I was the tail end of the baby boomers, and that used to be what women aspired to, at least in my Southern family.

So I got married - and married, and married. I won't bore you with details, suffice it to say we never reached the "happily" after "ever after".

I am now single and happy, and the poor guys I married have gone on to other pastures, hopefully where they don't have to live up to some impossible-to-live-up-to, Prince-Charming standard that was set for them long before they ever met me...

[Triana]

110. Love the moniker...

...'bitchkitty'.

One of my fave characters!

[Sapere aude]

108. I think different lifestyle choices should be available to all. We are not all taken from the same

mold. What's right for me is not right for you. I don't think there should be one lifestyle fits all.

It is not surprising to me that marriage is down and I think that people have more freedom to choose what they do. Let the fundies live in misery, God/Goddess does not expect us to be miserable on earth then move to some great gold mansion in heaven. Make the best of this incarnation because you don't know how long it will be to the next.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

154. Dingdingdingdingding!

Options are good.

[LanternWaste]

114. and Bob Boudeland says...

Yeah... I can't help it. When I see a story like this I'm compelled by morbid curiosity to see what our brethren on the right have to say about it. So, without editing or redacting, I present this topic from Bizarro Land (also known as Free Repubic). (The last one's my fav... it's gotta be some embittered guy who's wife left him for someone attractive and intelligent)





"The decline of American society should follow from this."

"The author of this tripe uses PC speculation for the reason that marriage is dropping. The real reason is the feminazi's and liberal judges! Few men today wish to risk their life's earnings that a wife wont get a wild hair and take everything they own in court after 15-20 years."


"As a muslim terrorist once stated... "our biggest advantage is that our women are mothers, and your women are whores". A little vulgur but there is a scary point in there."

"This is a downward spiral. Has been for the black community and it will be for the larger community."

"Yes, this is a triumph of feminism. Untold in this study, however, is the tragedy of shattered lives, aborted children,increase in venereal disease, along with broken homes from these women (and men) who "delight in their newfound freedom".

"There are many, many divorced women receiving substantial alimony payments who are living with boyfriends whom they will never marry because the alimony would end."

"Every man in his 20's and 30's knows someone that was raped in court and ruined for no reason except his wife got bored. That is the reason marriage is going down and it will start biting women right in the a$$ for believing NOW and their liberal spin."

[janx]

152. Be fair, now.

There are a couple of freeper females in that thread who are enjoying freedom after raising their kids...

[Zhade]

119. ...AND?

Who cares, it's their lives!

[sweetheart]

127. flexible labour is victorious

Fewer personal relationships means a bigger tax base as everyone must work.. wwooohooo, more military weapons!

This news is not about liberation, as women are not attaining liberation out of this,
but rather enslavement, that nobody, neither man nor woman, benefits when the social
relationships decay leaving the only lasting relationship of life with employer/career.

Its a tragic erosion sold as the latest greatest. .. but economics is hard on relationships
and marriage has outlived its usefulness in the new world order... the family unit is a corporate
need only until another taxpayer/consumer is created, then its time to bust it up... good work
cocacola, monstanto, coors and AEI... we need more slaves.

[treestar]

132. So what percentage of men are living without spouse?

Notice how the media always states statistics like this in terms of women. Like marriage only matters to women. Like we're all dying to get married and hook that reluctant male. Go stuff it, NYT!

[superconnected]

138. It's in the article - 47%

53% married

[Raine]

137. I'm 56 single and intend to stay that way

the guy I'd been involved with for years had a lousy attitude and also cheated on me, thank God we weren't married. I gave him his walking papers and feel much better without him than I did with him.

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

143. step 1: destroy the family

[Digit]

150. Destroy WHAT family?

You were being sarcastic, right?

[olddad56]

159. I think TV has already destroyed the family in most homes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

186. The family has been destroyed by the economy

The economy got bad because of greed at the top, and women had to work whether or not they wanted to, and so now both parents working and kids in day care is the norm.

These right wingers who are so focused on marriage never talk about good jobs for people so they can make enough money to support their families, and have time to be with their kids. That's because they're a bunch of hypocrites. They don't want to pay men OR women enough to support a family.

Oh and BTW, I had to pay my ex husband child support for 15 years, until our child graduated from high school. He got custody and fought me like hell, during and after the divorce. He did this to punish me for having the child in the first place. I'm prochoice and refused to get an abortion. We got married before the child was conceived.

[Trajan]

146. I liked being married ....

I liked sharing in a life moving forward; together ...

I miss the warmth and caring ....

I guess I am not yet cynical enough .....

[GoddessOfGuinness]

155. Nothing wrong with that...

Nothing wrong with not liking it, either.

[nodehopper]

156. does this include people who live with s/os but are unmarried?

the article doesn't say explicitly, unless I missed it.

[KansDem]

178. My wife would be one of the 51% if she wasn't already married...

x(

[MissMillie]

189. This should mean that there are

plenty of available men out there....

:shrug:

(Who am I kidding? I haven't met an "available" man in my entire life."