Israel field-tests effective anti-RPG weapon (US Army blocks deployment)

[Greyskye]

Israel field-tests effective anti-RPG weapon
So why isn’t the U.S. Army doing the same? NBC News investigates

WASHINGTON - In September, NBC News first reported on a fierce debate within the Pentagon over an Israeli-made system that shoots rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) out of the sky. The Army seems intent on killing the system, but officials in the Office of the Secretary of Defense believe it can save American lives.

Over the last three years, U.S. commanders in Iraq have issued a series of urgent pleas for a system to counter RPGs — a favorite weapon of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Pentagon's Office of Force Transformation (OFT) scoured the world for a solution and thought it found one in "Trophy," which was developed over the last decade in Israel.

Much more at link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16545885/

So now the Army is intentionally putting soldiers at risk. The Israeli system is ready now (and deployed on Israeli military vehicles, while the contracted US system still under development won't be ready for another 4 years - minimum!

:grr:

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. Well, of course.

We are supposed to sell Israel weapons, not the other way around. There's no profit in being a weapons purchaser.

[Solo_in_MD]

12. You would be surprised at just how much we do buy from Israel

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Actually, I do remember in the first year of *'s war we had to buy

rifle ammo from Israel because, despite planning it for years, the DOD didn't have enough on hand.

Rather sad, I thought.

[Solo_in_MD]

19. Try this site

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/

[The Stranger]

27. Surprise us.

[jody]

2. One should not rush to buy things like anti-RPG systems based on marketing hype. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Agreed.

I like how they put "field tests" and "effective" in the same sentence.

[papau]

5. This one works well - but the not built here by favored corporation crowd puts our

kids lifes at stake for pride and money.

This system has been around for a couple of years - if memory serves.

But NBC seems to have gotten the courage to report on it only post the Dem election victory.

[jody]

6. If it's so good, why didn't Israel use it in Lebanon where it was beaten by irregular forces? n/t

[question everything]

22. How do you know that it was not used in Lebanon?

Of course, this was not the problem with Lebanon, but rather the long range missiles that went into residential areas.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. It works well, according to the defense contractors that build it.

Just like the Patriot missle.

:eyes:

[Vidar]

11. But the Patriot had the best test results money could forge.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. There are substantive issues with the Israeli system when used with dismounts

which appears to be the issue. The issue with RPGs is less with tanks and more with APCs, HUMMVs, and trucks which tend to have dismount personnel nearby.

[TheBaldyMan]

17. Just like the Dragonskin debacle all over again,

equipment that was better than the feeble pork-barrel stuff that was being supplied to the troops was outright banned. Soldiers who had bought a superior armour with their own money were ordered to remove the armour or face disciplinary action. They then had to go out on patrol with the far less effective (but more profitable) personal armour.

To this day the DoD refuses to release test result for Dragonskin. The DoD is also refuseing to carry out any further tests that might prove what everybody suspects. Inferior armour has been accepted because it would have put contractors noses out of joint and reduced their fat profits.

[SOS]

18. Works well?

It was apparently non-existent in August:

"One-tenth of the Israeli tanks that took part in the Lebanon war were destroyed or disabled, a military study found.
According to Armored Corps data published Thursday, Hezbollah anti-armor missiles penetrated 20 Israeli tanks during the monthlong war, killing 17 crewmen. The number of tank crewmen wounded was in the double digits.
The high toll of the war on Israel’s Armored Corps was a shock to top military brass, especially given the fact that Hezbollah has no tanks."

[Phx_Dem]

20. info

"The product has been in development for over a decade but the IDF, due to budgetary concerns, did not acquire it until after the second war in Lebanon. After the war, during which many IDF tanks were seriously damaged by RPG attacks, the IDF changed its position on the subject and according to various publications has decided to purchase the system."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350869,00.html

[question everything]

23. Of course not. But according to NBC News

the army would not even consider testing it

Army's resistance to additional testing of Trophy could "open the Army up to criticism from the Office of the Secretary of Defense that the Army is looking for the perfect solution instead of something that while not perfect might be 'good enough.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16563771/

[MikeNearMcChord]

4. Now let's see...Israel has a system, that is ready now

protects from attacks from all around...can be autoloaded, with minimum exposure for the troops..and the fact if anybody knows how to protect it's troops from insurgent tactics, it is hard to match Israel, with their knowledge. BUT NOOOOO, we got to go to Raytheon, which might be ready with a system in four years if we are lucky(Raytheon is also responsible for the Patriot Missile System).. If it was up to me I would have that Major General busted to buck Private and made to ride in unprotected vehicles in Baghdad.
Why join the military now?

[jody]

8. Why didn't Israel use it in Lebanon? n/t

[MikeNearMcChord]

10. A good question, they are now arming their vehicles with them

now. (and maybe they wish they did do it) But is it not better to try them right now, instead of God knows what Raytheon may have for the Army in 2011 or is it 2012, maybe 2016?

[atreides1]

14. Still not battle tested is it???

Field testing in a controlled environment isn't the same as using the equipment in combat, we saw that with the Patriot missile.

And why did the Israelis wait until now? How come they've only purchased 100 systems, when they have more then 100 armored vehicles?

If they are tried and fail in combat, who do you think will get the blame for the failure? It won't be the civilians in the Pentagon who sing the praises of this system, it'll be General Sorenson and those who wear the uniform.

[Phx_Dem]

21. See post #20. nt

[sam sarrha]

9. should have known Fascist for profit Bull Shit was involved

[SOS]

16. The Pentagon doesn't want it.

End of story.
After the Lavi fighter jet debacle, the Pentagon will never agree to this.
Most likey outcome is that Congress forces the DoD to buy it and they'll put it in storage.

[Greyskye]

26. yep

The project was canceled in part because the U.S. was not prepared to finance an aircraft that would compete in the export market with the F-16C/D and the F/A-18C/D, and also because a dispute arose as to the final cost. The Israeli government was unable to finance the project alone and canceled it on August 30, 1987. <1> The decision to cancel was approved with a majority of only one vote. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Lavi)

Sounds like the biggest problem with the Levi was the same as this anti-RPG system - we have defence contactors building a competing system.

All hail the mighty military-industrial complex. :sarcasm:

[Toots]

24. RPGs are basically antipersonel weapons

Rocket Propelled Grenades. They are mostly used against troops and not vehicles. I can't imagine soldiers carrying around such a device. I am sure it may work to some degree for our tanks and humvees but they seem to be the targets of IEDs mostly. I think it is another scam to make some military contactor more money..:shrug:

[TheLastMohican]

25. Hmm.. I would have to disagree

The anti-tank RPG-29 Vampire encountered by Israeli armor in Lebanon is a very potent anti-armor weapon.

Check this out:

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl04-e.htm



Armour penetration: ERA plus more than 600 mm RHA - which is definetely a weapon against tanks and APCs.

However, RPGs can be fitted with the anti-personnel rounds, but that is another story.

[One_Life_To_Give]

28. I think in Iraq it has been predominantly the RPG-7

For the size, weight and cost it is a very effective weapon.
Available ordinance includes all types including fragmentation, thermal as well as armor piercing.

A relatively unskilled operator can sucessfully employ the weapon against unarmoured ground troops. And this has been a favorite of forces opposing the US military since Vietnam.