SICK FIDEL 'IN SPAIN'

[Mika]

SICK FIDEL 'IN SPAIN'
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=sick-fidel--in-spain--&method=full&objectid=18372391&siteid=66633-name_page.html

3 January 2007

AILING Fidel Castro was rumoured to be in a Spanish hospital yesterday after being smuggled into the country.

It was reported that the Cuban dictator, above, was in a Madrid clinic.

He is said to have been flown in on the same plane as the Spanish surgeon who jetted to Cuba last week to treat him.

[slackmaster]

1. They say Spain is pretty

Though I've never been.

[asjr]

2. My sister went one summer. She said to "Hold tight to your purse."

[heliarc]

15. I know some neighborhoods in the US

where you should hold tight to your purse too. Spain is fantastic.

[Julius Civitatus]

29. That would be a blanket statement

Spain has been suffering from a serious wave of crime in recent years, mostly because of their ridiculously naive border control practices and lax immigration policies. Urban areas have been affected by this problem, but rural areas are still as open and welcoming as they always were.

Madrid and Barcelona have certainly become less safe than they were traditionally, but you have to hold tight to your purse in NYC, Philadelphia or Washington DC.

[Psephos]

41. You have to hold onto your purse in most places on Earth

and that's not a new development.

Peace.

[bmbmd]

3. Well, I've never been to Spain.

But I've been to Oklahoma.

[slackmaster]

9. They tell me I was born there

But I really don't remember.

[Critters2]

56. In Oklahoma, or Arizona. What does it matter?

What does it matter?

[nolabels]

12. lemme guess.............Three Dog Night?

Thanks for the memories :shrug:

[donheld]

44. Who let the dog's out?

:evilgrin:

[Critters2]

57. Who? Who? Who? Who? nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Some say it's the best place

they've eh-eh-eh-ver seen.

[mac56]

51. Well, they should know.

They've been there enough.

[Fovea]

17. but I kinda like the music...

Manuel de Falla, J. Rodrigo, Fernando Sor.

[bmbmd]

25. I thought it was

Hoyt Axton.

[Fovea]

40. Sweet Misery is my favorite of Hoyt's

but I meant I like the music of Spain.
Played Classical Guitar and Vihuela de Mano (Spanish Lute)
for most of my life.

[flordehinojos]

43. jota aragonesa, whoever wroteit as well as "las bodas de luis alonso".

[Duer 157099]

53. Well, Daniel says

it's the best place that he's ever seen.

Oh, and he should know, he's been there enough.

(Lord! I miss Daniel!)

[Critters2]

58. *nod* I miss him so much. nt

[babylonsister]

4. Smuggled in? Whaa, his passport wasn't current? nt

[dipsydoodle]

8. That' a technicality.

Basically you need a passport to get back into your own country - not to enter another one. It's soley up to the foreign country you're entering as to whether they let you in or not either with or without a passport.

I guess they recognised him !:hi:

[babylonsister]

19. I never heard of that. As of 1 Jan, you need a passport to enter MX

and Canada. I need a passport to get on a plane to exit this country and also need to show it upon entering another.
But yes, I imagine someone recognized him.

[dipsydoodle]

21. I'm not so sure

you actually need the passport to enter Mexico or Canada - it's to ensure your re-entry into the USA. With regard to entry and re-entry : my brother left his passpport at a hotel in Holland and to get back in through immigration here he simply needed to prove his identity. Back in 1984 a friend whose passport had been effectively destroyed by a bottle of shampoo whilst in flight was allowed into Spain when the rest of us simply explained he was stupid !

I accept that your rules may differ due to your security measures. Why not ask around regarding the circumstances under which you could be phyically prevented from leaving your own country ? Maybe you've just been led to believe yet another lie.

[babylonsister]

22. We travel quite a bit, and no ticket would be issued to me for

a flight overseas from the US w/o showing my passport. Last time this was tested on us was in November. I didn't realize it's a rule that might just be applicable to the US though, so thanks for that.

[sofa king]

46. I'm wondering if the U.S. and Spain have an extradition agreement.

I'm thinking that if the U.S. wants Castro's ass and Spain has an agreement with the U.S. to turn over various nasties that each other wants, then it would be a good idea to smuggle the ailing Fidel in and/or out of Spain, beneath diplomatic channels.

[dipsydoodle]

5. None of the EU countries have any issues with Cuba

so I'm guessing he'd have been welcome at any of the member nation's hospitals. Shame he didn't come to the UK - would've been interesting to visit him. :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. 2003 - BBC: EU condemns Cuba over human rights

The European Union has announced it will impose a range of diplomatic sanctions against Cuba over its recent human rights record.
In a sharply worded statement issued by presidency-holder Greece, the EU said it was re-examining its relationship with Havana.

more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2967148.stm

[Judi Lynn]

33. You need to update your information.

US frowns on end of Cuba sanctions, but EU diplomats defend policy
Division apparent in transatlantic alliance
01 February 2005
Washington Feb. 1 - The United States took a dim view Tuesday of an EU suspension of diplomatic sanctions on Cuba, calling productive dialogue with Havana "simply not possible."

In a statement that marked a real split between Washington and Brussels on Cuba policy, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said: "We remain concerned that suspending the restrictive measures without achieving the goals for which they were put into place will embolden regime hardliners and dishearten the peaceful opposition."

But European ambassadors to Cuba defended the European Union's decision, expressing optimism that the end of the freeze would lead to several improvements.

They also assured opponents of Cuba's government that the EU would continue to raise human rights issues on the Caribbean island and maintain contact with dissidents.

"There is no reason to lack trust in our desire to try and do both things at the same time - improve dialogue with the (Cuban) government, and with civil society, including the peaceful opposition," Sven Kuhn von Burgsdorff, the EU's business attache in Cuba, told the Associated Press.
(snip/...)

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050201T210000-0500_74353_OBS_EU_DIPLOMATS_IN_CUBA_DEFEND_DECISION_TO_RESTORE_RELATIONS_.asp

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brussels mulls restoring high-level contact with Cuba
By Christopher Adams in London

Published: January 30 2005 18:37 | Last updated: January 30 2005 18:37

Foreign ministers from the European Union are poised to perform a diplomatic about-turn and restore high-level ties with Cuba, ending a two-year freeze in relations with Fidel Castro's regime.

Barring possible last-minute opposition from the Czech Republic, which remains concerned about the move, the decision is likely to be taken at a meeting in Brussels on Monday. It risks annoying Washington, which has argued that a ban on ministerial contact remain in place, and angering human rights groups.

Opponents to restoring high-level ties have argued it bows to explicit demands from the Castro regime, which has frozen contact with most EU embassies in Havana since member states imposed a range of diplomatic sanctions in 2003 in response to its poor human rights record.
(snip/...)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/220754ba-72ed-11d9-86a0-00000e2511c8.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You should do your best to portray the situation AS IT IS.

[0007]

47. You never cease to amaze me with your bent propaganda

[Judi Lynn]

35. It's very likely any problems there have been in diplomacy have been created and fanned

by right-wing pressure groups in the U.S. They really lobby as hard as they can at the U.N., and in Geneva every opportunity that arises. From what I've heard, there have been some very wild moments when right-wing idiot "exiles" from Miami have run into Cuban diplomats in neutral areas, attending conferences.

Of course, who can forget after hearing the news of at least a couple of Cuban "exiles" who fired mortars or something at the U.N. building itself, and a group of Cuban "exiles" who murdered a Cuban diplomat to the U.N. in New York City, and of a Cuban "exile" woman who came bellowing out of a crowd of her comrades and attacked Che Guevara with a knife the day he went there to make a speech.

They even murder EACH OTHER if they learn or suspect the "other" may hold the belief there should be dialog with the Cuban government.

They have been trying to command all aspects of U.S./Cuba policy, and they have been fiendishly active in trying to run Cuban policy for various former Soviet-affiliated countries, as well, like Czechoslovakia. The U.S. ultra-reactionary right-wing, following its leaders like Jesse Helms, have whole-heartedly supported and financed Cuban "exile" efforts at mayhem.

I think they see them as their "pets," and their "pets" see them as idiot chumps to be duped, manipulated, used for whatever purpose they can serve.

The right-wing funnels U.S. taxpayers' money to the Cuban right-wing through various "non-profit groups" and other Cuban right-wing groups feed it all right back to the right-wing politicians, through campaign contributions. It's a nice arrangement for all of them.

[UTUSN]

6. Sick old white European male goes back to mommy's breast

Weren't all those doctors in Cuba supposed to be very very good?

(Ducking... )

[bigworld]

23. Fidel's father was from Spain

[RagingInMiami]

61. They're all driving cabs in Havana in order to make a living

[Mika]

62. And the brutal dictatorship allows that? {sarcasm}

The Drs in Cuba are part of the government health system (y'know.. that monsterous baby eating Castro's system that shoots anyone who steps outta line), but they're allowed to work as cab drivers instead of their medical jobs? What kind of ruthless bloodthirsty dictatorship allows that?

:rofl:

[keta11]

7. I thought they were always bragging about Cuba

having the best healthcare system and doctors in the world!

[robcon]

10. ... and they still won't say what Castro's got

seems like a state secret - although Castro has the right to medical privacy, most politicians give some idea as to their condition, other than describing it as a stomach/intestines problem that was operated on in Cuba.

[heliarc]

20. Castro's got a disease called...

old age. I've never heard of it, but it seems to kill almost 70% of living things!

[gulfcoastliberal]

49. Gotta be cancer - that's my take on it

Cuba does have a first-world medical education system. Remember how Cuba kept saying Fidel "...doesn't have cancer." = Fidel has cancer.

[Mika]

11. So, do you think that Cuba has ever said that all #1 specialists are Cuban?

More mewling from the Castrophobes, I see.

:crazy:


Here are some facts though..


Learn from Cuba

[heliarc]

18. Thanks Mika

We should also mention all the americans who fly to Bangladesh to get complex procedures done. I'm not suggesting that Castro is practicing some sort of medical tourism, but for the nation that prides itself on having the best medical care in the world (natch)... there are quite a few people finding better and cheaper health care abroad.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/medicaltourism.html

[amandabeech]

14. The New York Stock Exhcange suspended trading today of Cuban bonds from

the 1930s. The things hadn't traded since the 1990s, but were still listed.

Obviously, somebody knows something.

[donsu]

16. kick

nt

[onehandle]

24. The bastard needs to live until Bush is out of office.

Rove would use a Cuba transition to totally recolor Bush's legacy.

[Judi Lynn]

26. So his doctor took him back to Spain. Easy to comprehend, isn't it?

They probably have facilities there, which, due to the American EMBARGO on Cuba, they CAN'T GET in Cuba, through no fault whatsoever of their own.

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health reported, "It is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering --and even deaths --in Cuba." According to Oxfam America, about half of all modern drugs cannot be purchased by Cuba because of US law. Not only does this prevent Cuba from resolving many of the health problems in the country, but Cuba's excellent medical researchers have their work severely hindered by the inability to use drugs essential to their work. Consequently, Cuba may have lost the opportunity to cure major, worldwide, lethal diseases. Notwithstanding the difficulties posed by the blockade, Cuba has continued the struggle to fight health problems. According to the AAWH report, "A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens." What other country in "democratic" Latin America demonstrates this level of commitment? "Such a stringent embargo, if applied to most other countries in the developing world, would have had catastrophic effects on the public health system. Cuba's health-care system, however, is uniformly considered the preeminent model in the Third World," says the AAWH study. Statistics from UNICEF show that Cuba not only spends the highest percentage of its GDP on health care of any Latin American country, but its free health care system covers 98 percent of the population, higher than anywhere in Latin America and higher than the United States.

Nevertheless the consequences of the blockade can be fatal. The AAWH report describes an incident which perhaps best portrays the character of US policy, "In one instance Cuban cardiologists diagnosed a heart attack patient with a ventricular arrythmia. He required an implantable defibrillator to survive. Though the U.S. firm CPI, which then held a virtual monopoly on the device, expressed a willingness to make the sale, the U.S. government denied a license for it. Two months later the patient died."
(snip/...)

http://www.impactpress.com/articles/febmar99/cuba2399.html

Why is it NOT a surprise to learn Fidel Castro is in Spain for treatment?

1. The country speaks his language, no language barrier
   
2. They have a leftist President who just may be interested in providing better security for him during his trip, hopefully keeping out the would-be Cuban "exile" right-wing terrorists, or CIA assassins.
   
3. Access to medical equipment the embargo will not allow Cuba to buy.

[Mika]

39. Excellent point, Judi

Due to the US's extraterritorial Helms-Burton law many health care products are not allowed to be sold to Cuba (at the risk to the company of being fined or banned in the US by the US Treasury Dept). I'm pretty sure that includes many of the latest state-of-the-art technologies used in acute pancreatitis and abdominal leakage (which is what ails Mr Castro, according to Dr. García Sabrido's specialty and his statements).

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. I thought that Cuba had a world class health care system?

:shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

30. Then you should research enough to confirm or dispel your information. n/t

[manic expression]

32. They do n/t

[BadGimp]

28. This could get interesting..

What if the Bushistas decide to try to block his return..

It could happen. It would not be smart and the World COmmunity would be outraged but when has that ever stopped these goons?

[David__77]

34. I see the imperialism-lovers are checking in here.

As if there's anything to the leader of a developing country obtaining specialist care in a friendly country. It happens all the time. Cuba is a medically-advanced country, but still a very small one. Cuba, like the US, takes all measures to protect its state leaders.

[Judi Lynn]

36. I've heard some of the completely unearthly measures they take

to keep this little emperor safe. Simply far and away more expensive, more wildly elaborate than would EVER make good sense.

Fidel Castro, from what I've heard, when he has been healthy, zips around Havana in a jeep, and walks out in public, even with the history of so many assassination attempts behind him, and probably still ahead.

[Mika]

37. Yep

Interesting that Haitian PM, Rene Prevail, just got back from Cuba where he has had medical treatment for prostate cancer.


Haiti's Préval to undergo cancer tests
Haitian President René Préval said that
blood tests during his recent visit to
Cuba suggested a possible return of
prostate cancer and that he will be
tested again.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/haiti/16211528.htm?source=rss&channel=miamiherald_haiti



Plus. Its not like Americans travel to any other country to get medical treatments. :eyes: NOT!

[Judi Lynn]

38. I've heard of the traffic from Europe to Cuba for medical purposes for years.

A Canadian poster you probably remember posted at the old CNN US/Cuba Relations message board about visiting a health spa/clinic there, once, and commented on the fact that they reserve one day a week to open the doors to the people in the town where the facility is located to use (free, of course). I found that very interesting.

This may be similar to what she was discussing:
http://www.gocuba.ca/en/travelForHealth.asp

More info. from a quick search:

HEALTH TOURISM

The above statistics include of course the huge number of visitors who arrive in Cuba as "Health Tourists" seeking help for a wide range of medical conditions and ailments for which Cuban medical practitioners have developed treatments. Cuban "Health Tourism" is famous world-wide, and has long been generating substantial income for the country. Servimed is the network of specialist medical and health centres offering both medical services for clients and training at all levels for health professionals. Clients enjoy access to the most advanced medical treatments, modern technical equipment and unique standards of comfort as well as enjoying the beauty and tranquillity of the countryside. Centres offer treatments for conditions such as: hypertension, , pigmentary retinosis (or night blindness), Parkinson's disease, psoriasis, deformities of the spinal column, bone tumours, paralysis, and rheumatic diseases. Health tourists can also take advantage of Servimed's therapeutic communities for the treatment of drug addiction, stress and the Ibero Latin American Centre for the Third Age.
(snip)

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/CubaSi-January/Turism.html

Health tourism is another significant option because the recognized international prestige of Cuban medical science gives it a comparative advantage. The Servimed Company, part of the Cubanacán Corporation Group, S.A., works closely with five hotels, 23 hospitals, 11 international clinics, and a variety of pharmacies and optical stores. Health tourism accounts for two percent of tourism, and although this area does not anticipate spectacular growth in the next few years, a wide range of possibilities in the health arena could add significant value to tourism offerings. Education and sports are also important areas of development for specialized tourism, as is eco-tourism.
(snip)

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~drclas/publications/revista/Tourism/castillo.html

Health tourism

Another growing source of income is health tourism, with a number of specialist hospitals, clinics, health spas and resorts catering to foreign visitors.


Many patients travel to Cuba for treatment
Last year more than 5000 foreign patients travelled to Cuba for a wide range of treatments including eye-surgery, neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's' disease, and orthopaedics.

Most patients are from Latin America.

However the unique Cuban treatment for retinitis pigmentosa, often known as night blindness, has attracted many patients from Europe and North America,
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3284995.stm

[Mika]

59. Article: Americans traveling overseas for inexpensive, quality care

An article related to the health care discussion above..

Tourist Rx: Traveling overseas for inexpensive, quality care
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/travel/16380326.htm

Vacation time isn't just for fun. Increasingly, people who have never left the United States before are traveling thousands of miles for complex medical procedures.

The reason is, simply, money. Treatments that would drive many people into bankruptcy at home often cost only a few thousand dollars in the developing world.

-

More and more, though, medical tourists are going to unfamiliar countries for complex treatments such as orthopedic surgery and cardiac procedures. For the most part, these are working people who are under-insured or uninsured -- though this may soon change.

Several large corporations are considering adding overseas medical treatment to the range of options for employees with health insurance, says Dr. Arnold Milstein, of Mercer Human Resource Consulting, who has been retained by five Fortune 500 companies (he won't say which) to figure out whether outsourcing healthcare is a viable option in some cases. One option under consideration to make the trip more palatable: Covering all of the employee's out-of-pocket expenses, along with a round-trip ticket for a spouse or other caregiver.

[UTUSN]

42. And *I* see that anybody to whom a head of state dressed in military DRAG is a red flag

is immediately FLAMED ("imperialism-lovers"). Have at it, comaradero (I'm quoting closer to Walt WHITMAN ---"comaradero"---than political terminology). I am sick to death of FLAMERS who attack perfectly good Democratic DUers for having the obnoxious nerve to dare express a differing opinion. Nighty-night.
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/

[Mika]

45. They wouldn't get "flamed" if they brought accurate info to the discussion.

If these "perfectly good Democratic DUers" express a different opinion, that is one thing. But, if these "perfectly good Democratic DUers" bring pro imperialist dis-info/mis-info to the discussion, then they are setting themselves up to be corrected (or "flamed", as you see it). Sadly, few of the pro imperialist Cubaphobes seem to read up on current info relating to the issue at hand. Much of the current info has been posted numerous times on the DU Cuba threads, but the pro imperialist Cubaphobes come out mewling with the same ol' US gov/Miami Cubano "exile" dis-info or pro imperialist propaganda. Its too bad that you see their being corrected/informed by informed DUers (who have actually been to Cuba and/or have done their homework on the subject being discussed) as being "flamed".

:shrug:

[robcon]

50. In other words, Mika, when YOU do it, it's informed opinion, not flame.

I think a hypocrite is posting, and it's not the "Cubaphobes." Your entire content/responses, which you claim are "informed," is a smear of other DUers by guilt-by-association - describing other DUers as captives of the Miami mob, the Gusanos and the local Florida Republicans.

If you really had an informed opinion, you'd skip the personal attacks and the guilt-by-association smears.

[Mika]

52. Your words, not mine.

But, if one were to review the thousands of postings on the DU Cuba threads then one would notice that the mewling Castrophobes bring little to the discussion in the form of facts or current information. Few links to back up their claims - and when they sometimes do they turn out to be old and seriously outdated if not cold-war era disinfo.

I do notice, however, that your entire response to me is nothing but a smear.

If you want to (continue to) walk/talk in lock step with the "Miami mob, the Gusanos and the local Florida Republicans", then, go right ahead.


:hi:

[gorbal]

54. I wouldn't say they were "pro-imperialist Castrophobes"

Just misinformed, like I was a year or two ago. I had some of the people I often agree with now making me feel kind of hurt.

[Vogon_Glory]

48. As Well That Pinochet Cashed In His Chips...

Just as well that Augosto Pinochet died in Chile. If Pinochet and Castro had been seeking treatment in the same hospital ward at the same hospital at the same time, they would not have been good ward-mates.

:evilgrin:

[robcon]

55. I think Castro would have pointed out Pinochet's mistake

Fidel would have said that Pinochet made the mistake of having a plebiscite in '88, which Pinochet lost, which ended up in the freeing of Chile from Pinochet's dictatorship.

Castro would have said not to have the vote - just continue to arrest anyone who disagrees with the junta like he does.

[Mika]

63. Pure Castrophobic fantasy.

Ms Cleo? Is that you?

So, why aren't Elizardo Sanchez and Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo and Oswaldo Paya (to name just a few) in jail?


Your constantly repeating the same false charges is getting boring. Why not try a new line of BS? Just for entertainment purposes.

[Eugene]

60. AFP: US maintains Fidel Castro is in grips of terminal illness

US maintains Fidel Castro is in grips of terminal illness

Sat Jan 6, 5:13 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US intelligence community still believes Cuban
leader Fidel Castro is terminally ill and has "months, not years" to live,
a spokesman said.

Though a Spanish doctor visited Castro last month and denied he had
cancer, Ross Feinstein, spokesman for the Office of the Director of
National Intelligence, said "The bottom line: He is terminally ill."

"We believe that he has months, not years," Feinstein said, adding that
"nothing has changed in the director's assessment" since the doctor's
comments on Castro late last month.

-snip-

Spanish doctor Jose Luis Garcia Sabrido told reporters in Madrid after
returning from Cuba last month that Castro, who underwent an operation
on July 27, is "in a process of slow but progressive recovery" and does
not need further surgery.

-snip-

Full article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070106/pl_afp/uscubacastro_070106221136