AP: 6 Imams Removed From Twin Cities Flight

[Eugene]

6 Imams Removed From Twin Cities Flight

By STEVE KARNOWSKI
The Associated Press
Tuesday, November 21, 2006; 1:42 AM

MINNEAPOLIS -- Six Muslim imams were removed from a US Airways flight
at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport on Monday and questioned
by police for several hours before being released, a leader of the
group said.

The six were among passengers who boarded Flight 300, bound for Phoenix,
around 6:30 p.m., airport spokesman Pat Hogan said.

A passenger initially raised concerns about the group through a note passed
to a flight attendant, according to Andrea Rader, a spokeswoman for US
Airways. She said police were called after the captain and airport security
workers asked the men to leave the plane and the men refused.

-snip-

Reached by cell phone just after his release, Shahin said he didn't know
where they would spend the night or how they would try to get back to
Phoenix on Tuesday. Hooper said US Airways refused to put the men on
another flight.

-snip-

Full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112100228.html

[FormerOstrich]

1. I just read this and it made me sick....

What is wrong with people? Someone passed a note to the flight attendants. The flight attendants should have nipped that shit in the bud. Instead they react. I get so angry when I read about how stupid people are! I hope the "worried" passengers were in a hurry since the ordeal delayed the flight for three hours.

Some people should stay home and hide under their beds.

:wtf:

[pnwmom]

88. There appears to be more to this story.

For one thing, the men were reported to be standing up on the flight. Airlines understandably get nervous when passengers suddenly stand up together during a flight.

Some other background is here.

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/826056.html

"Pat Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission, said that witnesses to Monday's events told police that before the flight that besides praying, the imams were spouting anti-American rhetoric, talking about the war in Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

"One of the imams was heard saying that he would do whatever is necessary to fulfill his commitment to the Qur'an, witnesses told police, Hogan said. Other witnesses said some of the imams were repeating "Allah, Allah," he said.

"And a couple of the imams asked for seat-belt extensions, even though it did not appear they needed them, Hogan said.

"All of this made passengers, the attendants and the pilot uncomfortable, Hogan said. As a result, the pilot called police to have the imams escorted from plane."

[President Kerry]

127. from that same link...

Said Shahin: "We were never bothering anyone, not saying anything loudly. We were just prostrating ourselves, the normal way we pray."

Marwan Sadeddin, another of the imams, said, "What bothers me the most is these false statements and lies that we were shouting, 'Allah, Allah.' This never happened."

Another, Ahmad Shqeirat, said, "That is a lie. We were not talking politics. And even if we did, so what? What is suspicious about that?"

All those things said by other passengers could have been hysteria affecting perception. In any case, US Airways refusing to re-board them on another flight is inexcusable.

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/826056.html

[UncleSepp]

2. Can we count on the "Religion is delusion" people here?

Are they going to support the rights of these imams to say a prayer without being arrested? How about any of our rights to say what we please? Will the smug superiority of the ideological atheist and capital-S Skeptic get in the way of the right of an individual to do what he likes, as long as it breaks no law and harms no other?

It's those folks I really have my eyes on right now. I don't trust them. Atheists? No problem. Agnostic? Also no problem. Any religion or spiritual path? Hey, good for you, fine. It's the people who belittle any way of being and way of understanding other than their own who get under my skin, and that counts for "accept Christ or burn in Hell" as much as it does for "go pray to your invisible sky-father".

[ChairmanAgnostic]

11. you missed the adherents to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

While I think that everyone has the right to be delusional in their own way, the willingness of a minority in the US to force their beliefs on others is a danger.

Here, for a variety of reasons, muslims are viewed as a threat to America. That thought process is misguided, silly and possibly dangerous. (to the imams, at the very least). But what can you expect from people who preach that Adam and Eve walked with the dinosauers, that the world is 6,016 yrs old, and that god listens to prayers.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Why are you attacking atheists?

I am one, but I am also a fierce civil libertarian. These people should have been left alone since there was ZERO evidence they were a threat to anyone. Just because one delusional group (Christians,) wants to violate the rights of another delusional group (Muslims), does not mean that I stand by and condone it.

Even the deluded have rights.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

129. May I offer an attempt at answering your question?

[Kelvin Mace]

149. LOL

Yeah, that was my take.

[AlienGirl]

160. Sorry, I was fresh off of a knuckleheaded discussion elsewhere

It was an argument (flamewar) composed of self-righteous religious folk and smug skeptics. It was not on DU, but it may as well have been. It wasn't substantially different from what happens here.

[UncleSepp]

164. Dang it. Didn't check who i was signed in as.

[AlienGirl]

159. I'm not. Read that again.

From my post: "Atheists? No problem. Agnostic? Also no problem."

That's an attack how?

I appreciate your stand as a civil libertarian, and that is in fact my own stand. I do not appreciate a "Why are you attacking atheists" that is as much of a non sequitur as "Why do you hate America".

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. Please don't confuse criticism and ridicule with persecution

Do you not trust someone who says "wearing baseball caps backwards looks stupid?" Would you assume they therefore want them banned? There's a world of difference between giving an opinion about something, and trying to control it. Why you're trying to conflate the two, I can't tell.

[AlienGirl]

161. You fail reading also!!

I never conflated the two. Now you're just making things up.

[Crim_n al]

78. You're suggesting it's atheists getting upset about Muslims

praying on planes?

That's a real crack up.

In case you haven't noticed, the anti-Muslim sentiments are being voiced by Christians and Jews, not atheists.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

89. I'm fine with them saying a prayer, but I'm not so fine with them

doing it standing up on a plane -- especially if it's not in English. How do you know it's a prayer? How do you know, if it's a prayer, that it's not the kind of prayer that one of the 9/11 hijackers probably said? They prayed, too.

[Zhade]

120. And if rightwing Jews prayed standing up in Yiddish?

Would you be so quick to suspect them?

Don't answer me; ponder it for yourself.

[AlienGirl]

165. Hasidic Jews have had trouble on airplanes recently as well

(But prayers are usually said in Hebrew, and most Jews are not right-wing, and many Hasidim are not right-wing. Here is the website of a friend of mine who is a Hasidic rabbi, vegetarian, and peace activist. http://upstel.net/~rooster/ Reb Gershom used to have an Impeach Bush banner up, but he lost a bunch of images because of computer problems.)

People are so scared that anyone who looks or acts even a little "different" panics them anymore. When, in reality, we are more likely to die by slipping in the bath or choking on a piece of Big Mac than by being attacked by a terrorist.

Tucker

[Toots]

124. They prayed, too.

How do you know? How do you know religion was involved at all in the 9-11 attacks? Maybe because the government that found a pristeen passport laying on the street in New York told you I guess.

[Zhade]

119. I'll happily belittle religion all day long for its lack of evidence.

But people can pray if they want. This wasn't a government-led prayer; these men were wronged.

I'll stick up for believers' right to believe whatever silliness they want, as long as - like you acknowledge - they don't force it on others or use it to hurt others.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

128. Yes you can. The complaining passenger is a paranoid bigot.

Dumb too. Wouldn't real terrorists be more discreet?

Religion IS delusion, but delusion by itself doesn't blow up things.

[UncleSepp]

163. Thank you!

I was expecting a large section of this thread to turn into a shoutfest about the validity of religious belief instead of a discussion about rights and freedoms. I'd been in a shoutfest inspired by the same story elsewhere earlier in the day. What I didn't expect was the number of responses that seem to have been to a different post entirely, that really do not follow at all from what I posted. Maybe they come from bots. "If the post contains these keywords, assume the post means x, and respond with y." ;-)

There seems to be a need for a certain kind of religious folk and and a certain sort of atheist to inject personal opinions on religion into any discussion at the slightest provocation - any mention of any sort of religion causes one sort of mouth-foamer to go off about how there is only one truth and that is Jesus (for example) or the other sort to trot out the invisible pink unicorn analogy. I'm not saying that all or most religious folk or atheist folk ARE that way, but the rabid ideologues are much louder. Both seem to have the same motivation of needing to be looked at, paid attention to, and recognized as morally or intellectually superior. I'm sick and tired of both kinds. I don't give two hoots who is religious, who is atheist, who is agnostic and who barks at the moon. I just wish they'd stop tying their thoughts and beliefs about religion to *everything* in a manner that, while not itself delusional, certainly approaches obsession and loose association.

[Chipper Chat]

3. "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street"

[Parche]

80. twilight zone

That is one of his best episodes


It is fear, unknown,anger,ignorance all wrapped in one.......just like constipated conservatives.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Missy Vixen]

54. It's good to exchange one bigotry for another, isn't it? n/t

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. please...

It isn't bigotry to object to spending five and a half hours with an individual oozing into your personal space. And even if being overweight is beyond their control electing not to bathe is not.

If you can afford an airline ticket, I am sure you have access to somewhere with a shower.

To say nothing about the entire flight between Baltimore and Los Angeles being a lecture on the magic of jesus.

[pnwmom]

101. There were a number of other factors that raised suspicion.

One way tickets for some of the passengers.
No baggage for some of the passengers.
Requested seat belt extender that was placed under a seat instead of being used.
Changing seats after boarding the plane; not sitting in assigned seats.

[Roland99]

5. "Three of them stood and said their normal evening prayers together on the plane"

I'm against profiling but even I might have gotten more than a bit nervous had I seen that.

[carla]

6. praying makes you nervous?

How about these exclamations? Oh my god, good heavens, thanks be to god etc that you hear every day. Those are also akin to praying.

[Roland99]

7. No, those aren't akin to praying

Those are phrases that haven't much meaning.

But, seeing Muslims stand up on a plane and start praying is certainly going to raise more than a few eyebrows. The wounds of 9/11 are not yet healed and while their comments wrt to the lack of understanding of Islam may be true, they should also be aware of what their standing and praying on a plane is going to do.

[Gin]

8. I am "ignorant" about Islam and would have been concerned

if I was on that plane.

Three of them stood and said their normal evening prayers together on the plane, as 1.7 billion Muslims around the world do every day, Shahin said. He attributed any concerns by passengers or crew to ignorance about Islam.

[alarimer]

97. I would have been very pissed off to be delayed by this crap

more than I would have been concerned about these men. I would have been pissed at whatever ignorant asshole complained.

[MadHound]

9. So, a couple of priests get out their stoles, kneel in the aisle,

And conduct a small prayer service. In a foreign language no less,"In Nomani Patri Et Fili Spiriti Sancti." Would you be upset by this? Consider them to be terrorists? No, probably not.

And neither should you consider the Imans a threat. This sort of BS happens due to Americans' bigotry, fear, and lack of any other cultural knowledge besides their own. Get to know your Islamic neighbors, coworkers, fellow students. Sit down and ask them about their faith, they will probably be more than happy to talk to you about it. Educate yourself so that you have at least a passing knowledge of Islam, after all, it is the one of the largest growing religious group in the US. It is becoming an increasingly large part of our cultural landscape, so we might as well do what we've done with other religions, know it, acknowledge it, assimilate it. After all, it is no stranger than that religion that practices symbolic cannibalism on their lord by eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood:shrug:

[Roland99]

12. So, all of America is magically going to understand all about Islam in a matter of a few years?

WAKE UP!

It will take decades if not longer before the ignorance of Islam in America is defeated.

Until then, BOTH sides need to be cognizant of each other. Americans need to work to accept Muslims as peace-loving individuals and Muslims need to understand the fear still prevalent just below the surface, esp. when sitting on an airplane.

Your analogy, btw, is completely bogus and ignores everything going on with this situation. Christianity is very well known here in the US. There's quite the comfort zone with it, you could say. You do a disservice to yourself even attempting such a lame analogy.

[MadHound]

13. You're correct, especially since Americans can't be bothered to educate themselves

About anything other than NASCAR, Faux news, or American Idol:eyes: Look, I've known the basic practices of Islam since I was in jr. high, thirty years ago. Learned about it in my Social Studies class. Having an overview of various theologies was a common part of the curriculum back in the day, but I guess that's no longer the case:shrug:

So, let us remedy that. Launch a media initiative in order to correct peoples' ignorance and bigotry. Run specials in papers and on television. Have guest speakers. Do what it takes to educate people. We owe this both to ourselves, as a pluralistic society, and to Islamic immigrants, so they don't feel that they're walking into the fire when they get here. Assimilation is a two way street friend, time that we started learning.

[Roland99]

14. Hey, I'd be all for that. And it pains me that 5 years after 9/11 we don't have that.

Where are the peace-loving activist leaders from any religion? Why aren't they pushing this?

[MadHound]

24. They're out there, and they're doing their best.

The leaders of our local mosque offer up open houses at the mosque on a regular basis, complete with mini seminars on Islam. This is happening all over the country, and the message has actually been taken up by various Christian leaders also. Sadly, this effort is flying into the face of that storm of bigoted garbage that comes from Faux news, hate radio, and fundamentalism Christian churches.

Sorry, but it is this sort of bigotry and ignorance that is keeping a lot of people from coming to the US anymore. 911 isn't an excuse for bigotry, hatred and jingoism. Islam in this country is reaching out, trying to bring enlightment and understanding to mainstream America, yet for the most part they're getting either shouted down or ignored. Sad to see fear and loathing grip this country's soul again.

[Roland99]

27. Good to hear that's beginning to happen, at least on a local level.

Hopefully it will pick up speed and breadth quickly.



Re: your second point:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2624871&mesg_id=2624901

:(

[Rose Siding]

30. It isn't just "beginning to happen".

It's been going on for years, whether the media is bombarding you with it or not.

[Roland99]

32. Well, one question still remains....

Why aren't the moderate Muslim leaders of this nation forcing their way onto the M$M to help clear the air?

I know it's a steep climb for them but, imo, they should be on every news outlet pushing for understanding.

[Rose Siding]

35. There are probably many reasons, but here's an example of how the media treat them-

He isn't an Imam or anything but I'd consider Rep Ellison to be a "moderate Muslim leader", wouldn't you? Here's how he was treated on CNN:

'Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies'
http://mediamatters.org/items/200611150004

[Roland99]

41. Glenn Beck is an asshole and that's an extreme example. I'm talking about...

getting on Oprah, Regis, The Today Show, Good Morning America, etc. Something that actually has viewership.

[Rose Siding]

48. Moderate Muslims have appeared on all of those shows.

Except, I think, Regis (for which I kind of respect them)

You must have missed the 3 part series that Oprah did.

[Roland99]

57. Must have.

[treestar]

38. Hello, if they tried to "force" their way into anything

There would be hell to pay.

I'm sure it's much harder than it appears.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

141. Same reason the liberal Christian leaders can't get on TV to denounce

the political fundies.

Extremism is "sexier" on TV than reasonableness is.

[Little Wing]

74. Or maybe if the Imams were smart

they'd recognize that American's aren't up to snuff in world affairs, and pray before they got on the plane.

Americans are always bashed for not recognizing the cultural differences of others, but why is it so obscene and wrong to suggest the Imams might have been a bit more culturally aware?

[MadHound]

122. Well, being that saying a prayer is determined by time

I would say that it was time for the prayer when the Imans were in the plane, not on the ground. And frankly, if they had done this in an airport, I think that the result would have been the same. Over reaction based on bigotry and ignorance.

[Little Wing]

125. I'm sure there's some leeway in the time of prayer

Ever see a Muslim stuck in an elevator because he had to pray?

Or halfway across an intersection?

[MadHound]

150. So hey, why don't you go find out?

A little research, a little knowledge, a little cultural understanding is good for everybody. One shouldn't have everything spoon fed to you:shrug:

One thing to keep in mind with time however. This was before the plane took off, so any time restriction on the prayer would also be limited by the need to soon be seated, belted, and ready for the take-off process. Double time limitation then so to speak.

[PassingFair]

130. I'm with you on this, Little Wing.

If not culturally aware, how about SITUATIONALLY aware?

A bunch of Christians on their knees praying on a plane
would creep me out too.

If they were handling snakes (venomous or NOT) I think
they would get ejected!

"Mother*ing SNAKES, on the Mother*ing PLANE"

After 9/11, some xtian folks exhorted me to pray
before take off, and I told them to keep it
to themselves, PLEASE.

They thought I was rude. I thought THEY were.
They made me nervous.

[MadHound]

151. Yes, but you didn't call down the wrath and suspicion of airline personell

You didn't get these Christians kicked off of a plane, just because what you thought of as "creepy" However if you are Muslim, dark skinned, and perform a prayer before take-off, suddenly it goes from being "creepy" to being a threat worthy enough to remove these men, detain them for several hours?

Sorry, but that is the work of ignorance and bigotry. An attitude that we all need to change. After all, Islam is the fastest growing religious group in this country. We had better get used to it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. LOL.

That's like blaming the lynch mob victim for not knowing that the klan was racist.

[Cozumel]

126. I learned it in Jr High as well...

about 10-12 years ago. it was in a history class i do believe. coulda been social studies though... so that curriculum was still there then as well... not sure about now. that's why when my daughter is old enough, i think we'll home school her. i want her to actually learn something, not this watered down crap they teach these days...

[knitter4democracy]

42. Not all forms of Christianity

If an Antiochian Orthodox priest started doing evening prayers in Arabic in his cassock, I'm sure he'd be kicked off a plane, too.

A large percentage of people in this country of Arabic descent are Christian. They're Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Rite Catholic, and Coptic Christians. Yet, most Americans think anyone who speaks Arabic is automatically Muslim and probably has ties to Al Qaeda somehow.

I'm just saying, it was a good analogy. I've seen people react oddly to Orthodox Christianity, since that is my faith. Not all forms of Christianity are well-known here.

[Odin2005]

67. Not necessarily. alot of our prejudices are based on cultural things rather then physical appearance

In my experience people tend not to notice Arab Christians as much as Arab Muslims because the former don't fit the CULTURAL sterotype we give to Arabs.

[knitter4democracy]

68. We have different experiences, then.

Some of my Arab Christian friends have been discriminated against and feel they shouldn't have to wear their crosses openly and carry a Bible in order for people to know that they aren't "that kind" of Arab.

[MisterP]

94. the "War on Christmas" hysteria gets me--why are they never

around on Jan. 7--that's Julian Christmas, and therefore a Christian Christmas as equal as one with John Gibson rubbing his foofy, demi-humanoid hair all over it. Consistency--and brains, for that matter--are never an issue for American fundies, I fear.

[AliceWonderland]

49. "Americans need to work to accept Muslims" -- these Muslims *are* American.

These Muslims are Americans. From Arizona and California.

[The Stranger]

56. Yeah, sure, and Michael Richards' audience members need to just understand

that it will decades if not longer before ignorance of racism in America is defeated. :sarcasm:

[Roland99]

58. You disagree that Muslims need to be accepted in American society?

wow.

[The Stranger]

71. Are you responding to my post? Or someone else's.

[Roland99]

72. You replied to me. I replied to you.

[The Stranger]

132. But that's just it: You didn't reply to me.

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

113. Are you aware...

that it is possible to be born in America AND be a practicing Muslim?
Your post seems to suggest one precludes the other.

[treestar]

31. Priests doing that would be odd

But even the most passing knowledge of Islam would tell you it is normal for the Muslims to stop right where they are for the five daily prayers.

[knitter4democracy]

43. Not if they're Orthodox.

We're supposed to pray three times a day, more if we're more devout (like a priest). Antiochian Orthodox Christians use Arabic in some of their prayers.

[treestar]

51. You learn something new every day. :-)

Thanks. I know little about the Orthodox faiths.

[knitter4democracy]

63. Eastern Orthodox Christianity is a small minority here.

We're all the same, just use different languages and different tones for liturgy. We may be under different patriarchs, but we're all the same.

The Antiochian Orthodox often use Arabic in their services and are under the Patriarch of Antioch. The Greek Orthodox usually use New Testament Greek (not modern Greek) in their services, and the ones here in the States are under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (they've never switched over to the new name). The church I go to is under the Russian Patriarch, Patriarch Alexii of Moscow, and we use the Russian tones and Old Church Slavonic (rarely--we're almost all English). There are more, like the Orthodox Church of America, the Serbian Orthodox, etc., but the only real differences are which patriarch we're under and which base language we use.

[harpboy_ak]

86. Orthodox churches have traditionally used local languages

Orthodox churches have a long and strong tradition of using local languages, unlike the Roman church which used Latin almost exclusively for liturgy until the 1960s.

In Alaska, the Russian missionary priests learned the local languages as quickly as possible so they could translate the liturgy and the Bible. The Alaska State Museum has a manuscript of the Gospels in Tlingit, phonetically written in Cyrillic characters. RO services here can include liturgy and music in New Testament Greek, Old Slavonic, Russian, English, Tlingit, Yu'pik, or Unangan (Aleut), depending on what part of Alaska you're in.

Later missionaries, mostly American, insisted on teaching the original inhabitants English, and attempted to stamp out their languages and cultures, while Orthodox churches supported the native language and culture.

[knitter4democracy]

93. Yup. It's created issues here in the States, though.

For example, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America requires that at least half of the liturgy be in Greek. That's because so many still speak it and want it here. It's hard for non-Greeks in the parish, though (speaking from experience). In the Serbian church, it's all in an old version of Serbian, which few of the younger generations speak.

There are many of us who think the Church in the Americas should be one and should predominantly use the language of the people, like we traditionally have done, instead of fifteen different jurisdictions and languages.

[brentspeak]

46. It wouldn't upset me because priests are not known to advocate hijacking

airplanes and crashing them into buildings. On the other hand, there have been countless imans in the Middle East, and some in Europe, who have declared "Death to America!"

So, it's perfectly understandable that a passenger would feel uneasy when he/she witnesses a group of imans praying before a flight. In fact, it would be abnormal for a passenger not to feel uneasy.

[MadHound]

61. OK, so Catholics wouldn't make you nervous because they haven't blown anybody up.

So let's say that a couple of fundamentalist Christians get up and start praying. Would that make you nervous?

Now then, remember, what Christian sect Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were.

Hmmmm.

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

114. Catholics have blown up people

Ever hear of the Irish Republican Army?

[MadHound]

121. Yes, I've heard of the IRA,

I'm simply trying to point out the there are devout people in every religion, also that there are religious/political fanatics in every religion.

[qwlauren35]

77. I wish it was so simple...

This reminds me of the joke about Eddie Murphy and Michael Jordan getting onto an elevator with some little old lady, and when one of them said "Down", the lady hit the floor spread-eagled.

I got an e-mail the other day that was pro-profiling. It was extremely sarcastic, but it pointed out that we have had a lot of terrorist incidents around the world in the last 20 years, and a large number of them were enacted by Islamic EXTREMISTS. The sad part is that many of us Americans don't know the extremists from the non-extremists and we are paranoid.

There's no easy fix against cultural or ethnic paranoia.

I agree that knowledge of Islam and Islamic culture would HELP, but not entirely. I agree with the guy who said that if 3-6 Muslims started to pray just before a plane took off, a lot of us would freak out, because we would fear that they were praying for a successful suicide mission.

I wish I thought that it was an unreasonable fear. Statistically it is, but anecdotally, it's not.

I think I too would have hoped that they would be taken from the plane -OR- that the flight crew had been previously given the proper information about its Islamic passengers to be able to reassure the rest of those on board.

In fact, given this incident, I hope that the latter happens. We probably have no idea to what extent there is already extensive and intensive screening of non-American Muslims who wish to fly on US aircraft, but I have no doubt of it. Instead of hiding it, we need to use the information that assures the government/airline to assure the passengers.

The situation could have gone another way, and again, not an unreasonable scenario. A group of Americans could have attacked the Imams, and harmed them or beaten them, thinking that they were subduing terrorists.

We definitely need to heighten awareness on many levels. Part of the education process hopefully will enable the average citizen to exercise good judgment, even if there is an instinctive desire to incite riot or act as a vigilante.

[MadHound]

123. Well, neither this incident, nor that scene in the movie were funny

Just another ugly incident based on stereotyping and bigotry. Over the last twenty years how many millions Muslims traveled by plane, train, subway, boat, etc. etc? And how many of them have committed a terrorist attack, blown something up, crashed the vehicle. Less than 2000. Hell, last year the Palestinians launched only seven suicide bombers:shrug: And remember, 911 was brought off by nineteen men. And this is out of how many Muslim travelers over the past twenty years? Tens of millions. Do the math friend, and you wind up with a figure of less than one percent. This country is quivering in fear and bigotry over a possibility that is less than one percent:eyes: Frankly, we should be a lot more worried about getting into car accidents than dying in a terrorist attack.

Unreasonable fear, based on anecdotes, inflated by the media, whipped up by bigotry and hysteria, and voila, here we are, detaining innocent people, pawning off our civil liberities for some vague promise of security. How very sad. It is said that Osama attacked up because he hates us for our freedoms, well he must be ecstatic right now, since we have increasingly fewer freedoms every day.

And apparently we haven't learned from history. We've been through this sort of ugly religious bigotry before. Denying people their rights based on religion, acting our of bigotry and ignorance, tarring an entire religious group over the acts of a few(again, less than one percent). Think back, what religious group made major population inroads into the US in the 19th century, to be met with ignorance, bigotry and hate.

Yeah, Catholics.

They were discriminated against, persecuted, misunderstood, hated and harassed. Yet now, due to time and sheer numbers, they are, for the most part, accepted in our society. You would think that we would learn from this incident, realize that the overwhelming majority of Muslims presented no threat, who have come to the US because they want their part of the American Dream. Yet out of fear and ignorance, we're doing our level best to make it a living nightmare. We just don't learn a damn thing from history:eyes:

So get to know Islam, and your Islamic neighbors. You will, perhaps, be suprised at how similar we are, even in religious matters. After all, Islam is one of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity are the other two. We are essentially worshiping the same God, we're just approaching him in three different ways.

So what are you going to profile on? Race, ethnicity, skin color? Face it, Islamic adherents come in all different sizes, shapes and ethnicity. They can be fair skinned or dark, blonde haired or black haired, blue eyed or brown eyed. That fine looking, Aryan looking man in the corner praying, he could indeed be Muslim. You start basing your security on profiles, then you are failing to do your job, for sure as shit, the terrorists will change up people and tactics, and slip something by on the waist of that fine looking Aryan young man, while security is busy searching a group of devout, Arab Imans. Stupidity.

And we shouldn't wait for others to educate us, we have got to educate ourselves. And the more familiarity we have, the more we know, then the less we have to fear.

[Coventina]

136. I flew with a group of Eastern Orthodox nuns once, and it scared me.

I should preface this by saying that I am TERRIFIED of flying in the first place. I have a serious phobia about it. Just typing about it is making me short of breath and shaky. So, yeah, I have a serious problem.

Anyway, I was flying from Philly to Phoenix, and there was a large group of Eastern Orthodox nuns on the flight. I don't know what language they spoke, at the time I assumed it was Greek. But thanks to Knitter4democracy's informative posts downthread, :hi: I see now that it could have been Greek, Arabic, Russion or Serbian or who knows?

But anyway, I got to thinking that posing as nuns would be a "great" way of getting terrorists on a plane. Who would question a bunch of kindly nuns?

I know it was just my own fears, but I was seriously freaked out during takeoff. As the flight progressed without incident, I gradually calmed down.

Bigotry is caused by fear. And when it comes to planes, I admit I am very fearful.

On the ground, I feel that I am a loving, trusting person. I worked with a devout Muslim man who stopped to pray during the day, and it never even crossed my mind that he would be a "terrorist". If I had seen him do it on a plane, well...the bigotry would rear its ugly head. I'm not proud of it, I'm just trying to be honest. Fear is often situational, and so is bigotry.

on edit: typo

on further edit: I see that knitter's posts are actually above mine, not below. Threads can get so confusing sometimes!!

[BreweryYardRat]

157. About something you said...

"But anyway, I got to thinking that posing as nuns would be a "great" way of getting terrorists on a plane. Who would question a bunch of kindly nuns?"

The IRA used to smuggle weapons this way, and probably set bombs, too. I'd be surprised if even the DHS boys weren't aware of that.

[Nihil]

15. Oh come on!

> The wounds of 9/11 are not yet healed

When will Americans give up with this shit?

Bigoted ignorant passengers? "The wounds of 9/11 are not yet healed"

Unlawful detention without trial? "9/11 changed everything"

State invasion of privacy? "9/11"

Murdering innocent civilians whilst stealing their resources? "9/11"

As a nation, you have still failed to acknowledge the nature of the
crimes that happened that day so you do not deserve to hide behind
it as an excuse for la-la happyland ignorance and xenophobia either.

Get over it.

[Roland99]

20. Newsflash. On the morning of 9/11, four airplanes were hijacked and crashed.

That's a FACT.

A very tragic and deeply-cutting fact.


As I posted above, America is not going to magically fall in love with all of the peace-loving Muslims. It will take time to get over the tragedy of 9/11 and for the gov't to stop abusing that tragedy for political/economic/military gain.

You can't expect everyone to push that memory of the planes crashing out of their minds. Esp. when a group of Muslims stand up on a freakin' plane and start praying. It's going to cause people to be concerned (or worse).


As I said above, BOTH sides need to be cognizant of the others' fears and worries and struggles.


Get over it?


"Cheney"

[treestar]

39. By now I think every American can be expected

To have gotten past any temporary bigotry allegedly allowable due to 911.

There does get to a point where people keep their wounds open to use as an excuse, seeing how it have given them power, being a victim.

And for Americans whose victimization is just in being American (not an actual survivor of a 911 victim) it is past time where that can be said to be the case.

[pnwmom]

104. I think there were enough questionable circumstances to warrant caution.

Besides the praying, wherever and however and in whatever language it took place; and the anti-America comments.

Some of the men had one-way tickets.
Some had no baggage.
While all six had separate seats, some of them moved from their assigned seats after getting on board, so they were sitting in pairs.
At least one asked for a seat extender and then, instead of using it, placed it under his seat.

Given the totality of irregular circumstances, I think the airline was correct to investigate.

[Nihil]

50. Gosh, is *that* news?

> On the morning of 9/11, four airplanes were hijacked and crashed.
> That's a FACT.

Is it a fact I disputed? No.
Is it a newsflash? No.
Is it news? No.

Has any American politician been charged with complicity? No.
Has any high-ranking official been dismissed for incompetence? No.
Has anyone been brought to justice for this crime? No.

Like I said ...
> As a nation, you have still failed to acknowledge the nature
> of the crimes that happened that day ...

For some reason, however, you (and many thousands of your compatriots)
seem to think that Muslims (and the rest of the world apparently) still
need to pussyfoot around Americans over five years later.

There certainly hasn't been any indication that Americans in general
have shown any attempt to be "cognizant of the others' fears and worries
and struggles". Still, there's a first time for everything ...

"Cheney"

[Roland99]

59. Way to put words in my mouth.

Where did I ever say Muslims "need to pussyfoot around Americans over five years later"

Never said it. Nope.

But, go ahead and find me a quote.


What I said was that they need to be cognizant that fears exist in the average American (largely due to the vast amount of propaganda that's spewed forth from the gov't on a daily basis). To ignore that fact is to act callously and arrogantly.

[Nihil]

66. Sauce for the goose and all that.

If I was claiming that those were your exact words I would either
have quoted them ("..") or referenced the post ("> ...").
Nice way to dodge avoiding the rest of my post though.

Meanwhile, "seeing Muslims stand up on a <freakin'> plane and start
praying" (.7 & .20) is somehow an affront to your American sensitivity.

Or do you view "raising more than a few eyebrows" (.7) and causing
"people to be concerned (or worse)" (.20) - not to mention the actions
of the passengers in the OP - to be a reasonable response, somehow
justified by these "fears" that still exist in "the average American"
over five years later? I view it as irrational, ignorant and bigoted.

> To ignore that fact is to act callously and arrogantly.

Maybe you (collectively, not Roland99 personally) need a touch of the
real world to shock you out of your hysterical insular trance?

[Roland99]

73. WTF are you rambling about now?

Or, are you saying that all of America now magically understands every nuance about Islam and that no Muslim standing up on a plane and reciting prayers could possibly be perceived as anything remotely approaching suspicious behavior?


Drop the rose-colored glasses and enter the world of reality.


As much you and I both may dislike that reality, it exists.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Newsflash...

It's an insult to the 9-11 victims to use their deaths as lame excuses for bigotry.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

87. Three men standing up and speaking together in Arabic on a plane

might make a lot of people nervous.

How would observers know they were praying? Or what they were praying about? The 9/11 hijackers were religious fanantics, they probably prayed, too -- so even if the passengers on this plane were able to know these men were praying, that wouldn't necessarily make them feel safer.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. Except they weren't doing it on the plane.

They were doing it at the airport.

Some bigots saw arabic men and decided they were terrorists. To hell with them.

"The 9/11 hijackers were religious fanantics, they probably prayed, too"

Actually, they dressed up like Western tourists. Hawaiian shirts and all.

[pnwmom]

98. The BBC report says that they were standing in the plane.

Accounts at this time seem to differ.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6168838.stm

"The six men were taken off the US Airways flight, bound to Phoenix from Minneapolis, after a passenger reported "suspicious activity" to cabin crew.

"The men were told to disembark shortly after saying evening prayers. Three of the six had stood as they prayed."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-11-21T173337Z_01_N21395996_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-IMAMS.xml&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1

"Patrick Hogan, spokesman for the Minneapolis-St. Paul Metropolitan Airports Commission, said the airline asked airport police to remove the six men from the Minneapolis to Phoenix flight because their actions were 'arousing some concerns' among both passengers and crew.

"He said the men had been praying at the gate area but he did not know if they tried to pray once at their seats inside the plane.

"He also said some witnesses reported the men were making anti-American statements involving the Iraq war, asked to change seats once inside the cabin, that one requested an extender to make his seat belt larger even though he did not appear to need it and that in general 'there was some peculiar behavior.'"


http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-061121usairways-story,0,45069.story?coll=chi-business-hed

"Flight 300 was still at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport when the incident occurred. Before the imams boarded, they were ``praying loudly in the gate area. Some were heard to be making statements against the U.S. involvement in Iraq,'' Pat Hogan, spokesman for the airport, said in an interview today.

"Some of the six repeatedly said ``Allah'' as they boarded, then asked to change seats and requested safety-belt extensions that they put under their seats, Hogan said. One was overheard to say he would ``go to whatever measures necessary to obey all that is set out in the Koran,'' Hogan said."

-- It does seem peculiar to ask for extenders and then put them under their seats.


http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/breaking_news/16069916.htm

And one-way tickets is always a concern these days:

"An airport police report said the flight's captain had already decided he wanted the men off the plane after the passenger passed a flight attendant a note pointing out "Arabic men."

"Witnesses said the men prayed in the terminal and made critical comments about the Iraq war, according to the police report, and a US Airways manager said three of the men had only one-way tickets and no checked baggage.

"An airport police officer and a federal air marshal agreed that the combination of circumstances was suspicious, and eventually asked the men to leave the airplane, the police report said.

"There were a number of things that gave the flight crew pause," Airport spokesman Patrick Hogan said. It wasn't immediately possible to verify whether the passengers who reported suspicious activity witnessed it themselves."

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/11/21/passengers.removed/

"The passenger thought the imams -- who were speaking in Arabic and English -- had made anti-U.S. statements before boarding and "made similar statements while boarding," said Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security.

"Once on board, Knocke said, the six split up into groups of two and did not sit in their assigned seats."

[Javelina8]

103. If all of this is true

it seems reasonable that the flight crew had its suspicions. It really does look more and more to me like this may have been done with the intent of provoking a reaction.

[pnwmom]

107. I think so, too. Under the worst case scenario,

a terrorist group could use situations like these to wear down our defenses. Several false alarms like this, and maybe we'd stop screening passengers for suspicious behavior . . . .

Welcome to DU, Javelina8.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

144. If they were praying, why WOULDN'T they say "Allah"?

:shrug:

[MUSTANG_2004]

155. Well, it is pretty weird.

When was the last time you and two or three others prayed together in a public place? Ostentatious displays of religion are tacky, no matter what your religion is, whether you're Jerry Falwell or one of these men.

[Nihil]

158. Mind you, it would have been pretty ironic ...

... if, when questioned, the imams simply said they were praying
that none of the ignorant paranoid Americans around them would try
to get them kicked off the plane without cause ...

:shrug:

[Roland99]

167. What do we have here? Seems the imams weren't picked on for being Muslim.They were acting suspicious

http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/12/the_faking_imams_pajamas_media.php

Pauline said she did not see or hear the imams pray at the gate (she was at dinner in a nearby airport eatery), but heard about the pre-flight prayers from other passengers hours later.

As the plane boarded, she said, no one refused to fly. The public prayers and Arabic phone call did not trigger any alarms - so much for the p.c. allegations that people were disturbed by Muslim prayers.

...

So the captain apparently made his decision to delay the flight based on many complaints, not one. And he consulted a federal air marshal, a U.S. Airways ground security coordinator and the airline’s security office in Phoenix. All thought the imams were acting suspiciously, Rader told me.

Other factors were also considered: All six imams had boarded together, with the first-class passengers - even though only one of them had a first-class ticket. Three had one-way tickets. Between the six men, only one had checked a bag.

[rodeodance]

19. yes. yet, it is difficult not to make assessments at the moment. I

really do not know what I would do.

[krispos42]

10. Well that's what heppens when your dinner is...

"Chicken Allah King"!

Oh, God, that's a terrible joke. I watched too much 'Titus'...

[lynne]

16. Their "normal evening prayers" is what the article states -

- yet I've never seen any muslim saying their normal evening prayers in any restaurant, the mall, a ball game, the movies or any of the hundreds of public places where muslims may be during the evening. Maybe I'm just not observant. I do think that public muslim prayers is the exception in lieu of the rule and something that the majority of us are not used to seeing.

It would make me nervous, too, and I would probably request to remove myself from the plane had I witnessed three muslims in prayer immediately before takeoff. Some might say that makes me a racist. So be it. While I understand that not all muslims are terrorists, the sad fact is that the overwhelming majority of terrorists are muslim.

[Bridget Burke]

18. No, you're not racist.

At least, your reaction to this story doesn't show you are "racist." (Perhaps you are, in other settings.) Ignorant & xenophobic are more suitable.

Every Muslim must pray 5 times a day, at specific times. There's a certain amount of "leeway" in the timing--but Imams are probably stricter than your average believer.

Just because you haven't noticed something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What else are you missing?

Not all Americans invade Muslim countries. But the overwhelming majority of invaders in Iraq are Americans.

[lynne]

21. One thing I'm curious about -

- is that there were six Imams on the plane and only three chose to pray. If they absolutely must pray 5 times a day at specific times, why did the other three Imams not do so?

[Bridget Burke]

33. Islam is not monolithic.

Why don't you ask a Muslim?

[Roland99]

22. Something tells me these imams did it on purpose in order to raise a stink

Something smells about this. Like you said, how many start into evening prayers in public places throughout the US? Although, perhaps if more did, Americans would begin to adjust and accept it.

[lynne]

28. That's my take on it, too -

- especially since only 3 of the 6 participated. Had there been a compelling need and religious requirement to publicly pray at that specific place and time, all 6 would have participated.

[treestar]

37. Baloney, everyone is different

Some people are more demonstrative than others.

Some Christians might pray on a plane, others might find it too public.

[Tesha]

47. It wouldn't matter if they did.

If you have religious freedom, then you are free to exercise
it even if the purpose is to raise a stink with the ignorant.

Tesha

[Roland99]

60. You have freedom of speech but cannot yell "Fire!" in a theater.

Try it and see what happens.


Now, that's not a valid analogy to what happened to the imams, not in the slightest. But, your point cannot be black-and-white. If they did it on purpose to cause a stink, what do you think was solved by it and by their outrage at being taken off the plane? Wouldn't you think they'd be saying they *did* do it on purpose to prove a point? I think they would so, actually, I believe now that they didn't do it on purpose and were just subject to the fears of people who've been subjected to propaganda blasting in their faces 24/7.

But, the imams should have been aware of that and realized that most people here in American (esp. the non-Muslims) are very ignorant of Islam and its customs and rituals.

[Tesha]

83. Praying is not the equivalent of yelling "Fire". (NT)

[Roland99]

91. I know. You obviously didn't read my post.

[pink-o]

95. some muslims pray 5 times a day

...it's what their denomination demands. If it comes time to pray and they're in an inconvenient place, they can't just blow it off.

And the irony of ironies....???? My father's family is Orthodox Jewish (I personally am an ethnically and culturally Jewish agnostic) and I've seen plenty of scenes in airports and aboard planes where the Orthodox get up, put on the shawls and start praying. Some rock back and forth as if in a trance. One man was in the boarding area tying that box thing to his head and wrapping leather thongs around his arms (and if anyone more Jewish than I understands this custom, please enlighten me!). In Milan airport, my gentile friend told me the praying Jews were freaking him out and he thought they were creepy. When I explained the idea behind the prayers, he felt bad for his knee-jerk reaction.

Listen, for those of us who know and care about our Muslim friends, we should ALL be working to end the prejudice against them! We understand the ignorance of the woman who clutches her purse to her bosom when she passes a black man on the street; to freak out about people PRAYING is a complete overreaction. But we have to scapegoat someone, don't we? Should I just be happy that it's not my people for a change???

I guess Islam must be the new gay.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

145. Those uppity muslims.

:eyes:

[leesa]

36. You are TOLD that the overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslims.

It is propaganda and you believe it. Our terrorism is done from thousands of feet up in planes. What we did to Iraq was pure terrorism and we killed many more people than all other terrorists combined, so by that logic, most terrorists are American soldiers.

The problem is in your head.

[angryxyouth]

79. Don't forget CIA sponsored terror blamed on Muslims

[Oak2004]

116. Odd, before 9/11 I saw it on several occasions,

once in the aisle during a cross-country Amtrak trip in the 1970s.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. I've seen Muslims doing afternoon prayers on a light rail train

in the suburbs of Portland.

This really freaked out a fundie who happened to be riding in the same car. He started saying loudly, "Jesus Christ is lord of the United States of America. Jesus Christ is lord of the United States of America" like a mantra.

[Coventina]

146. I don't know why I find that funny, but I do.

We are building a light-rail system here in Phoenix.

I can't wait to meet all the weirdos on the train!

[NashVegas]

17. God, This Is Silly

Do they really think the Imams are going to blow themselves up? Fuck, no. Even if they are terrorists, they won't do it themselves, they'll have some stooge do it for them.

[Roland99]

23. And the average American on a plane can discern?

[meganmonkey]

84. If they can't 'discern'

it is THEIR problem, NOT the imams.

I can't believe how many people are making excuses for some asshole causing a ruckus on the plane. The person who wrote the note is the one who should be removed from the plane and questioned for their extreme, judgmental asshole-ness, not the other way around.

[Roland99]

92. And the flight crew bears no responsibility either?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. Yes.

And they failed in their responsibility to protect their muslim passengers.

[pnwmom]

102. The airline had other reasons for concern, besides

whatever the passengers reported.

Some of the men were on one-way tickets, some had no baggage, some changed seats and weren't sitting in the seats to which they were assigned, and at least one asked for a seat extender and then instead of using it, placed it under his seat.

[tanyev]

25. Prayers on a plane!

AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!

[carlydenise]

26. A relative of mine actually tripped over a praying muslim once

in an airport...she was hurrying to her gate and tripped over a guy crouching over on his rug while he was praying.
Carly

[Fierce]

40. Public radio later reported that they didn't pray on the plane.

They prayed in the airport.

[lumpy]

55. Yes, they prayed in the airport not on the plane.

x

[pnwmom]

105. Patrick Hogan, the airline spokesman, said that he didn't know

if they also prayed on the plane -- not that they definitely didn't.

[knitter4democracy]

44. This really bothers me.

Are we all so conditioned to believe that anyone who speaks Arabic and has brown skin is an enemy? They prayed. The prayers are the same, and they're repeated on television, so why wouldn't we know that they're prayers. Or is it that we honestly think that any person of Arabic descent who prays before getting on a plane is a terrorist? It's okay for white people to pray before getting on a plane (I've done it and seen others do it, even in groups), but it's not okay for anyone else?

This really bothers me. My daughter's godfather is of Palestinian descent. He is an Eastern Orthodox Christian who knows the prayers in Arabic and sometimes sings them to himself. He's a doctor, an iconographer, and an amazing man. Would they kick him off the plane just because of stupid fear?

It is time for us to heal from 9/11. It was a horrible thing, yes, but we didn't round up all Palestinian Americans after Bobby Kennedy was shot. We didn't shut down the Michigan Militia after the Oklahoma City bombing. We didn't over-react when terrorists killed our president and made Teddy Roosevelt president. This is ridiculous at this point. It is time for healing and for moving into peace.

[treestar]

52. The reactions of some freeper-Americans if anyone is interested

They are deliberately trying to freak us out, and should have been prevented from flying. Bottom line: their co-religionists flew airplanes into buildings and killed thousands of people. This is just a ploy to enhance thier "victimhood" and test our security. I am e-mailing the airline in support of its actions.

Should have escorted them from that flight to the next one leaving for Iran or Syria.

Hey CAIR: Everything I needed to know about Islam I learned on 911.

I wonder what they were saying in the prayers that got passengers so worked up?

Well DUH!!! After 9/11, when any muslim stands up in a plane and starts speaking in a language most American's don't understand, that is suspicious behavior and past experiences lead us not to TRUST said behavior.

The Muslims have a plan of civil disobedience and this fits the profile.
Until we kick every last one of them out of the country or put them in internment camps we will have no peace or safety or security or a hope for our future.

It, too, believe that they should not be granted visas to enter this country, or be allowed to enter on a visa-waiver passport. The ones who are here should be sent back to their natal hell holes, and the ones that were born here should assimilate, cease and desist from scaring people on airplanes or return to where ever their parents came from. We don't want them here. They are working to destroy our government and way of life. This is not a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment does not mention airlines and any kind of right to fly.

What freakin' morans. A parade of ignorance. The last sentence of the last one has me ROFL.

[yellowcanine]

53. Wait a minute. They were removed because of concerns raised by ONE passenger and because they

stood up and prayed at the normal Muslim time for praying????? That is just bullshit. Were they bothering anyone? Did they stand up when they were supposed to be belted in? If not, this is bullshit.

[pnwmom]

106. There was more involved than that.

Some of them had one-way tickets.
Some of them had no baggage.
They had six separate seats, but some of them moved out of their assigned seats so they were sitting in pairs.

All of these behaviors raise red flags these days.

Oddly, at least one of them asked for a seat belt extender that he didn't appear to need -- then placed it under his seat.

[yellowcanine]

108. I will wait for the full story to come out. "Wolf" has been cried way too many times since 9/11.

I have learned to withold judgement. Most of these "facts" such as the ones you are citing, turn out to be "factoids" in the harsh light of day, I have observed. Sorry - put me down as not convinced.

[pnwmom]

110. These men may be perfectly innocent.

But I don't think it is unreasonable for them to have been investigated, given their behavior.

Suppose a terrorist group DID want to wear down our defenses. What better way than to trigger a series of false alarms . . . .

But you are right. We won't know all the facts until the full investigation is completed. Until then, it's really just speculation.

[goodhue]

153. These "facts" have not been established

Here is the latest from local paper . . .

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/826056.html

* * *

In a statement to police, a US Airways gate agent wrote that three of the men prayed in Arabic at the gate. "I was suspicious by the way they were praying very loud," the gate agent said.

Said Shahin: "We were never bothering anyone, not saying anything loudly. We were just prostrating ourselves, the normal way we pray."

* * *

Before passengers boarded, one became alarmed by an overheard discussion. "They seemed angry," he wrote in a police statement. "Mentioned 'U.S.' and 'killing Saddam.' Two men then swore slightly under their breath/mumbled. They spoke Arabic again. The gate called boarding for the flight. The men then chanted 'Allah, Allah, Allah.' "

Marwan Sadeddin, another of the imams, said, "What bothers me the most is these false statements and lies that we were shouting, 'Allah, Allah.' This never happened."

Another, Ahmad Shqeirat, said, "That is a lie. We were not talking politics. And even if we did, so what? What is suspicious about that?"

Once the six were seated, two in front, two in the middle and two in back, and paid visits to each other to chat, some passengers became alarmed, the police report said. One passed a note to a flight attendant citing the alleged comments about Allah and Saddam.

Flight attendants alerted the pilot, who called airport police and asked them to remove the men from the plane. They left "cooperatively," according to the police report.

* * *

[Deja Q]

64. Anyone possessing false IDs should be jailed. That's breaking the law.

Anyone thrusting their religion in an enclosed space is causing a disturbance.

And I don't care which religion they're preaching.

Nor would I doubt anybody praying in the name of Jesus, Peter McPancake, or anybody else would have been treated differently.

Since they've been released and not guilty of attempting or anything, US Airways should pay the bill. But let's look outside the box. Anybody causing a disturbance will get hassled and I'm compelled to agree, for the sake of the many. And that has also included white people trying for the Mile High club. (and it can't get much more ridiculous than that!!)


(Edit: Addendum: It's been said the folks booted from the plane had held numerous IDs, each with the same photo. Either way, one article claiming multiple ID cards compared to everyone saying "making a public disturbance" when other reports of public disturbances have been investigated - e.g. the mile high thing... oh well. )

[mitchtv]

81. I get offended at being a captive audiance

for Any "floor show" where I am trapped into watching/hearing, especially religious floor shows. Sit down and read a holy book .God knows it's tough enough to fly anywhere these days.

[meganmonkey]

85. I get offended by big SUVs

Do I get to write a note and have them taken off the road?

:shrug:

[Sabriel]

65. I hope Rep. Ellison doesn't fly US Air

This will wreak havoc on his schedule.

[truebrit71]

69. The sooner we ban all muslims from air travel, the sooner we'll all be safer....

:sarcasm: :puke:

This story just makes me so mad....

[dmallind]

75. I'm one of those invisible-father-in-the-sky folks

And stand by that characterization to boot. After all the typical Xian view of a deity is exactly that.

But I couldn't give a tinker's cuss if imams or priests or rabbis (or shock horror even fat people!) are on the same plane with me. Yes I'll look with some suspicion on any group that stands up and engages in some overtly histrionic behavior reagrdless of what it is. If a couple of people stood up and started reciting solilioquys from Shakespeare I'd raise an eyebrow and be somewhat on guard for other unusual behavior from them too, but that's all. Ask them to leave or complain about them? Not at all. Keep an eye out in case they do other doolally things? Yep, and no apology there.

And on a side note I wonder whow many people who complain about the "fat" people on planes fit themselves into the seat. My 16 yr old 105lb scrawny stepdaughter hangs over the sides of a oplane seat so what chance does a full sized person have? I've had someone complain about me in this context until I demonstrated that it was my shoulders, not my gut, that were in their way and there is little to no excess fat on my shoulders - I'm simply a large powerfully built guy and if I had the body fat of a marathoner I'd still spill over into the next seat - it's not my fault they are made for anorexics or grade schoolers. The average airplane seat is leass than 18" wide. How wide are you whiners?

[Love Bug]

76. "Flying while Muslim"

Profiling for the 21st Century...

[meganmonkey]

82. Makes me sick

how many people here are blaming these Imams for other people's ignorance and over-reactions. Because some judgmental asshole causes a stink, it's okay for these guys to be questioned for hours. It's sick.

:puke:

[kitty1]

96. Here's a suggestion for unorthodox practices by muslims or...

others when flying.
Advise the crew ahead of time of your intentions to pray standing up and make the request before flight time so people who don't realize what you're doing won't freak out, and try to have you thrown off the flight. Perhaps the crew could then tell the passengers what is taking place so they're not afraid.
Who wouldn't be just a little bit nervous to see 6 Islamic men stand in unison and start to speak in Arabic together and call out to Allah.
These men are intelligent enough to know that Westerners get easily spooked on flights nowadays.
What if 6 Christian Evangelicals on an Qatar Airlines flight to Egypt got up in unison and started to shout Hallelujah in English and started singing a rousing chorus of "Go tell it on the mountain"
What do you think would happen to those infidels on that flight?

[roody]

99. For safety reasons, persons on a flight should

stay seated with their seatbelts on. I think common sense should trump religious practices.

[pnwmom]

100. I agree. I also think that there were enough circumstances

to justify the airline's caution, at least according to the accounts we have now.

The one-way tickets of several of the imams
The fact that three of them had no baggage
At least some changed seats so they were sitting in pairs and not in their assigned single seats
Asking for seat extenders, and then placing the extenders under their seats instead of using them
Their angry statements about the US and the Iraq war before the flight

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2624753&mesg_id=2626175

[yellowcanine]

111. "Their angry statements about the US and the Iraq war before the flight"

Now there is a hanging offense. :sarcasm:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

However inconvenient, it still applies.

[pnwmom]

115. It was the totality of the circumstances that led to the investigation.

Not just what they said, or what they did, but everything.

Just making angry statements wouldn't be a reason to worry, but that combined with everything else -- the one way tickets, the lack of baggage, etc. -- gave the airline a reason for caution.

[yellowcanine]

131. Uh huh. Right. Keep repeating that and maybe it will become more

credible each time. Not. This was profiling based on religion and culture. Do you really think that given the exact same actions by, say, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard, James Kennedy, Chuck Colson, and Jimmy Swaggert - that the airline response would have been the same? I don't think so. Evangelicals pray out loud at airports and in airplanes as well.


By the way, I heard this morning that Homeland Security cleared them and US Airways still didn't
let them fly. Is this true?


Answered my own question. Apparently it is true. They had to take another airline. They flew home without incident

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/826056.html

Look, I know you are sincere here, but this story about suspicious activity, etc. is just not standing up to the light of day. On the face of it it never did make any sense. Why would real terrorists dress up like Imams and draw attention to themselves as Muslims?

[pnwmom]

134. These men aren't public figures like Jerry Falwell. Few people

would recognize them.

And how were they dressed so that anyone would know they were imams? What special clothing does an imam wear? There's no centralized hierarchy -- who would tell an imam how to dress? You could probably look it up now, if there is special clothing, but did you yourself happen to know before this incident? I bet you don't, any more than I do.

If this were simple racial profiling, then it would be happening every day, because Arab and Middle Eastern appearing men fly EVERY DAY without incident on US airways and other airlines. What made this different is the other circumstances.

On edit: I just perused images of imams on google, and there is nothing in their dress that would identify men as imams. Some wore caps or turbans, some had bare heads, and they wore various kinds of dress, including western clothing. I wouldn't have known an imam on sight before this incident and I still wouldn't.

[yellowcanine]

137. Actually - yes there are distinctions - I used "dressed" loosely. They often do

have distinctive garb - particularly headgear and a distinctive robe - and they may have full beards depending on the sect. But they often wear Western style clothing as well. What they were wearing here I don't know. But somehow everyone seemed to know they were Imams and I would guess that going to and from an Imam convention with fellow Imams one would be more likely to wear the distinctive garb. As for your last point - all I can say is where have you been? This IS happening every day - Middle Eastern appearing men are being detained at check points for special scrutiny, being asked to leave flights based on passenger fears, etc. Ask a Sikh if you don't believe me. And your "other circumstances" are still not proven, at least not anything I have seen.

[pnwmom]

138. No, they're not proven. We'll have to wait for further information.

But if the other circumstances ARE true, then I think the airline was justified.

There may well be other cases involving Middle Eastern men where suspicions weren't justified -- without knowing the specific cases, who can say? But, IF these particular circumstances turn out to be true, I don't blame the airline for its caution.

[yellowcanine]

140. The airline refused to carry them even AFTER they were cleared by

Homeland Security, so yes, I do blame them. If, if, if. That is all you have. The burden of proof here is on the airline and so far they are failing to provide anything.

[NVMojo]

109. outrageous

[yellowcanine]

112. "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither

Liberty nor Safety."

Useful reminder here, methinks.

[truthisfreedom]

117. ridiculous paranoia. if people are uncomfortable with other's religious beliefs,

the people who are uncomfortable should ask for another flight, not the other way around.

[Zhade]

118. All it takes is one racist passenger to kick off the racial profiling.

What an enlightened country we live in.

[pnwmom]

135. Is it racial profiling

when there are other suspicious behavioral factors involved?

one way tickets
no baggage
leaving assigned separate seats after boarding and sitting together
asking for a seat extender, then placing it under the seat instead of using it

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. It's racist.

They weren't terrorists.

[pnwmom]

152. But you can't know that until AFTER the fact.

The airline had to do the investigation to know who they were dealing with. Before that, all they knew was that there was a group of men who were acting in ways that gave rise to suspicion.

[Coventina]

133. I have to be honest: It would have freaked me out.

I'm terrified of flying and anything, ANYTHING out of the ordinary would set me off.

I start crying whenever I hear strange noises on planes. So hell yeah, I would have been scared if I saw people acting strangely. I about had a nervous breakdown once when I overheard another passenger threaten to punch a stewardess in the face (this was long before 9/11).

I realize that this is my problem and my phobia about airplanes. I "manage" it by not flying very often.

So if I saw people moving about the cabin in a group, or blocking the aisle or acting "strange" (strange meaning not seated quietly in their seat) in any way, it would have been major freak-out time for me.

[MUSTANG_2004]

154. If they had any empathy, they'd have realized it

Really, September 11th wasn't that long ago. Surely they're not so out of touch that they wouldn't realize that 6 Arab men behaving oddly (and yes, men praying together in public is pretty freaky) would scare airplane passengers?

[Katzenjammer]

139. My question is: when are we going to require these filthy subhumans to

wear a marker so we can recognize them in the street? I'd suggest that they all be required to add either "Muhammad" or "Fatima" to their names, and to wear a prominent green star-and-quarter-moon on the front of their outer clothing.

For the safety of our children, they should probably be forbidden to use public transportation, too. And there's no reason for them to own cars, either. They should be forced to turn them over to the police. Actually, perhaps collecting them together in one place would make them easier to surveil. I'm sure there are places in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming that would suit. Their homes and businesses could then be bought inexpensively by Real Americans, improving our already-wonderful economy.

[mikdalesh]

156. This has a really polarizing effect.

In this thread there were numerous points about average Americans knowing close to nothing about Islam. That is a moot point, what is critical is that instead of learning about Islam they become more entrenched. You know the conservative motto to "prefer the devil you know to the devil you do not know". This is actually a really big issue, not just an isolated incident. This is how America reacts to people we encounter in war.

Bush claims that if we pull troops out of Iraq that Alqueda will have a stable base of operations to launch more terrorist attacks. As the congress begins to push the administration to end the war the republican party is going to strongly promote the idea that America is becoming more vulnerable to terrorism. This could lead to a new wave of terrorism, or just stronger police tactics and greater paranoia of anything coming from that part of the world. Politicians feed on the feelings of voters. That is one reason that immigration was such a hotly discussed topic in the last election. Fear and hate over terrorism may cause the wounds from 9-11 to fester into a mass hysteria about immigration and Islam in America. We are calling for healing and understanding but you have to realize that this shift in thinking is not likely to happen for people who are entrenched in their ways. There is extreme polarization on both sides of the spectrum.

[humbled_opinion]

166. All the more reason to understand that on 911...

Our Democracy died. In other words I think we could have overcame the 2000 election results in 04 but 911 and subsequent actions in the name of that tradgedy have stained America beyond repair I believe.