Guatemala shocks Venezuela in U.N. vote

[Freddie Stubbs]

By PABLO BACHELET
[e-mail]

NEW YORK - U.S.-backed Guatemala easily outpolled Venezuela in a vote today for a seat on the U.N. Security Council, dealing a surprising blow to leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.

Guatemala won the first round of voting 109-76, but fell short of the 124 votes, or two-thirds majority, needed to win the seat. Seven countries, including Chile, Ecuador and Peru, abstained in the first round.

In the second of what are expected to be several rounds, Guatemala won by an even margin, 114-74, with four abstentions. A third round was expected later in the day.

The vote is to select a Latin American representative to the Security Council that will succeed Argentina in a two-year term that begins in January 2008.

more: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15773158.htm

[tk2kewl]

1. I hear that Diebold got the UN contract.

[EFerrari]

2. I can't believe that the UN is still appeasing BushCo.

:wow:

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. Perhaps it is simply a rejection of Chavez rather than embracing Bush

[EFerrari]

6. No. Chavez is much more popular than Bush has ever been n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. That's not saying very much

[Bacchus39]

8. not at the UN apparently

n/t

[EFerrari]

11. Which gives you a sense of how representative that body is.

eom

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. Perhaps many nations don't like either of them

[Bacchus39]

15. Venezuela has been on the Security Council 4 times, Guatemala none

so which country should be elected in order to ensure a fairer representation??

[EFerrari]

16. Cart before horse. "Guatemala" isn't going to get the seat.

The ruling elite thata suck the blood of the people will. :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. If only more countries were like Iran and North Korea

[Moochy]

30. Got Agenda? n/t

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. No, just opposing demagogues

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. Yes

Opposing bad guys

[TankLV]

129. Yep - he sure does!

Never misses a beat to unjustly bash this good person...

[EFerrari]

33. Freddie, write down everything you know about Iran

and then mail me the matchbook.

Geezus.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

67. Hee hee.

Couldn't resist...

[Freddie Stubbs]

68. So, your're saying that Chavez is as bad a s Rumsfeld?

:shrug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

71. No.

I just think it's funny. As in - is there anyone left out there who doesn't cozy up to these nasty characters?

[SOS]

109. Don't forget this one

Let's post photos of Nixon shaking hands with Mao, Kennedy and Khrushchev, Reagan and Gorbachev......
It's pointless, but fun.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

178. That one's even worse

If Maliki & Ahmadinajad are getting buddy-buddy, we're in a boatload of trouble in Iraq.

[DuaneBidoux]

80. I agree totally. I am amazed at his support here. Your picture says all.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

87. So, you're saying that Chavez is as bad as Bush?

Willing to become friends with evil people to further his agenda?

[Judi Lynn]

96. No. n/t

[katinmn]

164. That pic shows diplomacy. Nice. Thank you. :-)

[Yupster]

102. It's too bad

that what's going to eventually happen is neither of the two countries will get it, and a compromise choice will be agreed to.

That's too bad because Guatemala has waited a long time for this chance. They've never had a seat on the Council.

[Marie26]

176. Perhaps

Chavez isn't very well-liked by other Latin American countries. Maybe his UN speech was a bit too much for them - or maybe the US just used some bribes & threats to get its way.

[ShortnFiery]

24. Fear and sucking up to power will do that for MANY ...

I watched CSPAN last night as that oaf O'Reilly was signing books. There were both men and women gushing all over this cruel and immoral man. It was disgustingly superficial fawning and it reminded me of when I worked as a Protocol Officer in a Battalion Command Group.

People talk big but very few of us are unimpressed by power and authority. Watch your co-workers' behavior when a big boss shows up ---> then go hurl into the toilet.

Far too many people go "ga ga" over Power and Authority.

I resent absolute authority to such an extent that I will go out of my way to avoid or tweak their sensibilities.

As Mark Twain often Quips:

"I also didn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member."

Therefore, I request that we can consider The UN as one big-ass club where the USA is the 800lb Gorilla in the corner. ALL COUNTRIES either admire, want benefits and/or fear US. :(

[Benhurst]

39. It wasn't Mark Twain, but Groucho Marx

who said, "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."

[FormerDem06]

59. There are four 800lb Gorilla in the corner...

China is actually the 2,000 lb gorilla that keeps things happening like Darfur intervention.
Russia, the US and Great Britian would be the others. In case you haven't been watching, the US gets its way about 25% of the time in that "club". Or if they do get their way, China refuses to honor anything they vote for after a little while.

[wholetruth00]

62. Wonder how much it cost taxpayers to pay off for Gutamela votes.

Gutamela is one of the worst governments on the face of the earth. After the killings of nuns and others there over the years by the US supported thugs, how can the UN vote go this way?

[DocSavage]

133. Yeah

and Venazuala and Iran are lands of sugar plums and lollypops. Just imagine that most of the rest of the world knows or at least suspects that Chavez is a kook.

[bobbie]

174. You asked good questions wholetruth00

And only got bad answers. :evilgrin:
Well that's how it goes on some threads.

[Marie26]

179. Chavez threads

are flame-only zones.

[bobbie]

180. Ok so you don't like Prez Chavez, or are reluctant to discuss him

There are plenty of people here who do appreciate the man, and aren't afraid to discuss him.
Trolls aren't that intimidating. Once people throw facts at them they get real real quiet...

[Marie26]

181. Are you flaming me? Huh?

Well I never. :rofl: A troll accusation, an insinuation, and a self-righteous posture all in one post! It's a trifecta.

[bobbie]

182. LOL

"Never"??? Aw c'mon... ;-)

[Marie26]

183. LOL

By "never", I mean more like every day in General Discussion. Which is why I'm sloooowing backing away from the Chavez thread, carefully watching all exits. ;)

[bobbie]

184. ROTFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...to myself actually

To each their own. I like to counter the many smears of Prez Chavez. That's why I'm quickly backing into any such thread...that's right, ass first. ;-)

[Bacchus39]

4. awww...poor Hugo

pobrecito

[Mudoria]

5. Viva Guatemala!

[EFerrari]

10. Y pobrecitos, the poor people of Guatemala with their

BushCo collaborating government.

[MGD]

23. my sentiments exactly nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Well, I guess you can have a bone to be happy until December 3.

[David__77]

9. not surprising... most countries are imperialism-appeasers.

things are at a low-tide for resisting the empire. it will change though, and chavez is part of that. the PEOPLE of the world condemn imperialism even if their corrupt and dictatorial leaders are in cahoots with it.

[EFerrari]

12. You bet. And that's why BushCo is doing everything it can to

take Chavez out.

Viva Chavez.

[Johnyawl]

14. Could it be that Chavez shot himself in the foot with his mouth?

I like Chavez, but I think a more statesman like demeanor at his recent UN appearence might have benefited Venezuela. It is quite possible to critisize Bush without resorting to playground insults.(however much fun that may be)

[Temporary1]

17. You know Bush is threatening countries behind the scenes

Seems most logical to me.

[goclark]

18. What happened on the latest vote? nt

[Adelante]

19. There have been four rounds so far

Guatamala's won all of them, but Chavez says he will not step down. Next is the fifth.

[Adelante]

21. Up to six rounds

Tied. 93-93

[pampango]

25. Damn "imperialism-appeasers" countries seem to be caving.

Or are they "imperialism-appeasers" only if they don't vote the way we want them to?

It is reassuring that in the course of a few hours, some votes are changing. Could it be that Hugo's good intentions are belatedly becoming apparent to the appeasers of the world? (Don't even suggest that Hugo might be make some "offers" of his own for a correct vote.)

[Adelante]

28. Would I do a thing like that?

:D

"(Don't even suggest that Hugo might be make some "offers" of his own for a correct vote.)"

[Adelante]

27. 7th round

Guatemala 96; Venezuela 89

[Bacchus39]

29. is this a 12 or 15 round bout?

n/t

[Bacchus39]

31. how much has this cost Venezuela????

http://www.eluniversal.com/2006/10/16/pol_ava_16A791499.shtml

"Cuánto petróleo se ha regalado, cómo se han firmado cheques para tratar de congraciarse con naciones cuyos votos no favorecieron las aspiraciones de nuestro país. Esto lo deploramos porque sin duda es un golpe histórico para imagen de Venezuela."

How much petroleum has been given away?, how have checks been signed to attempt to ingratiate with nations whose votes did not favor the aspirations of our country. This we deplore because, without a doubt, it is a historic blow to the image of Venezuela.

[Bacchus39]

32. round 8: Guatemala 102 Venezuela 85

Chavez is lucky that the win can only be by knockout.

[Adelante]

34. In the 9th: Guatemala 107; Venezuela 81

[Flanker]

37. You support Uribe and now LEDEZMA?

Do you have a clue or are you sure you are a progressive?

[Bacchus39]

64. Guatemala never in security council, Venezuela 4 times

I'm glad some of our members have taken the time to learn about Guatemala's sad history.

Now, what that has to do with their bid on the UN is another story. are some saying because the US has intervened illegally in Guatemala in the past that makes them ineligible to compete??

[ronnie624]

74. No one is saying

"...because the US has intervened illegally in Guatemala in the past that makes them ineligible to compete". That's just something you have pulled out of thin air and held up as someone else's position, as has been witnessed on many occasions.

What some of us are saying, confused one, is that we believe the philosophy of the Bolivarian Revolution would be far more likely to represent the interests of the people of Latin America to the UN, as opposed to the representation that would be offered by an oligarchical ruling class, installed specifically for the purpose of exploiting the resources, labor and economy of Guatemala for the benefit of U.S. corporate interests.

Comprende?

[Bacchus39]

75. apparently a majority of other nations do not agree with you

in addition, Guatemala has been a significant contributer of troops for UN missions. Venezuela has not. surely, active participation in the goals of the UN should be a consideration for countries to elect the security council, rather than simply who screams the loudest.

[ronnie624]

83. I tend to believe bribes and blackmail

by the U.S. government receive far greater consideration than "active participation in the goals of the UN", whatever that means.

[Bacchus39]

86. sending troops for UN missions for example

having never been on the security council while Venezuela has been on 4 times.

[Freddie Stubbs]

126. But Chavez has spent millions of dollars travelling the world

and doling out aid to try to win this seat.

I guess sometimes money can't buy love.

[TankLV]

130. That's good news for Hugo - it began something like 53-120 against

Venezuala.

Looks like Hugo's got the big mo...

I hope and pray...

[Freddie Stubbs]

76. It's a secrect ballot

[Temporary1]

78. Remember how secret the Iraq war intelligence was at the UN?

When Bush was caught spying on delegates?

[Judi Lynn]

79. Ha ha. Some of us surely remember!

Welcome to D.U., Temporary1!

Had it been a legitimate President, it would have been a humiliating event.

[greccogirl]

22. Ha ha! Ol'

Chavez might find himself in election trouble according to the number of protestors against him.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Money talks, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Gee, why am I now depressed? :(

[Judi Lynn]

35. Why don't you post a link to some of your information on Chavez's

being in "election trouble according to the number of protestors against him?"

You'd be serving an important educational function among the Democrats around here.

[greccogirl]

141. There was a

recent news article showing thousands and thousands protesting against Chavez.

[Flanker]

143. It is called anecdotal evidence`

ie non-scientific... polls (aka scientific evidence) show a 55-60 for Chavez to 25 for Rosales

[greccogirl]

144. That may be but I was

shocked to see that many protestors.

[Flanker]

146. The problem is I don't yhink you are familiar with Ven

Thjose are not many people bu prhaps 20,000 the same oposition used to pull 5-10 times as much between 2002-2004

[Judi Lynn]

145. If you had been following news from Venezuela for years you'd know

huge numbers turn out who support Chavez. So many turned out to protest the coup, even though all the news outlets blocked this news from getting around, which would have brought out so very many MORE, that they showed so much resistance, as in a movement AGAINST the coup, and eventually the Venezuelan soldiers went against their orders from the coup leaders who had assumed control of the country, and the coup was finished the right way: the people were allowed to keep the President they elected in a landslide.

Here's an article which may be helpful:

October 12, 2006 at 06:21:18

BBC Guilty of Venality In Its Misreporting on Venezuela

by Stephen Lendman

BBC Guilty of Venality in Its Misreporting on Venezuela - by Stephen Lendman

Listeners and viewers expecting to find a safe alternative to the corporate-controlled media by turning to the BBC better reconsider their choice based on the vaunted news organization's reporting on Venezuela and specifically on the misinformation it put out in an online piece on October 8 titled - "Mass Venezuela opposition rally." It claims "Tens of thousands of people have marched through the Venezuelan capital, Caracas, in support of the main opposition candidate, Manuel Rosales."

If readers of this piece just went to VHeadline.com, they'd have gotten a much different picture - from the actual photo of those "tens of thousands" that, in fact, may have been all of a single ten thousand or so in the streets in a show of tepid support at best and not what anyone would call "mass." Shame on BBC and its reporter in Caracas Greg Morsbach for lying for the power interests he serves, so he reports what they want put out even if it's not true.

Based in Caracas for the BBC, correspondent Morsbach must knows a massive crowd when he sees one as Hugo Chavez draws them every time he addresses a rally that routinely turns out en masse in a tsunami of red-shirted supporters to see, hear and cheer him. He surely can tell the difference between a huge Chavez crowd and the puny one for Mr. Rosales on October 8, many of whom were likely just on the Caracas streets and curious to see what was going on. BBC must think this kind of misreporting is the way to maintain a gilt-edged reputation as a reliable news service. The sad truth is that reputation got tarnished many years ago and went to pieces in the shameless reporting the UK-based news organization did in the run-up to the Iraq war when it's entire news operation went into overdrive functioning as a state propaganda service for our government and theirs.

But back to the Morsbach report in which he claims the so-called mass rally "filled the main avenues of the city centre (and) was the biggest opposition rally Venezuela has seen since early 2004." It may have been about the only one of any size seen, and it may have partially filled a single avenue, but as the actual photo on VHeadline.com's site shows, it thinned out fast after moving away from its small core center. Correspondent Morsbach may be nearsighted and failed to notice. Surely on BBC pay he can afford to correct that impediment so he can see more clearly and report more accurately in the future.
(snip/...)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_stephen__061012_bbc_guilty_of_venali.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are only a couple of photos taken of one pro-Chavez demonstration.



You owe it to yourself to find out more about this subject.

[roody]

151. But he is a dictator and does not allow protests!!! eom

[stepnw1f]

38. weird.... (nt)

[0007]

40. Is this straight from John Bolton mouth? Or from junior's asshole?

[Judi Lynn]

49. Not much a difference in quality there, would you say? n/t

[Occulus]

81. That sounds like something a Certain Poster upthread might say n/t

[Adelante]

36. Postponed until tommorow

10th round: Guatemala 110; Venezuela 77

Freddie, any thoughts on a compromise country?

[bobbie]

41. Why is this surprising?

Guatemala was one of the first countries the CIA took over in the 50's, so the US retains a lot of power there. If they're under control then the insiders can let them in.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Sure glad you mentioned it! The citizens have no power to fight back

at right-wing intruders in their world, death squads, powerful U.S. companies going back to serious pain from the Eisenhower administration, and continuing into the present.

The people living there currently know exactly what can happen to them if they don't please their right-wing U.S.-serving masters.

Interpreting the 1954 U.S. Intervention in Guatemala: Realist, Revisionist, and Postrevisionist Perspectives
Stephen M. Streeter
McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario

AT NINE IN THE EVENING of June 27, 1954, Guatemalan President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán announced his resignation. The beleaguered colonel had many reasons for abandoning the presidency. His 1952 land reform program, known as Decree 900, had enraged wealthy planters and United Fruit Company (UFCO) officials, who spread propaganda tagging Arbenz as a Communist. Earlier in 1954, at the Tenth Inter-American Conference in Caracas, Venezuela, the Eisenhower administration had isolated Guatemala by bludgeoning members of the Organization of American States (OAS) into adopting an anticommunist resolution which insinuated that the Arbenz regime had become a Communist beachhead. Then, on June 17, Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas and his band of several hundred peasant soldiers--the so-called Liberation Army--had invaded Guatemala from Honduras with logistical support from a covert U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operation code-named PBSUCCESS. As the Liberation army stumbled its way through the countryside, unmarked planes strafed Guatemala City while radio broadcasters jammed the airwaves with rumors that the government was collapsing. Although the early stages of the invasion had gone poorly for Castillo Armas, the Guatemalan army decided on the 25th to abandon the battlefield in Zacapa. The high command refused the president's order to arm the civilian militias, and instead demanded that he step down. Feeling exhausted, confused, and cornered, Arbenz surrendered the government to the army, hoping desperately that the invaders might still be repelled. But U.S. officials threatened, cajoled, and bribed Castillo Armas's military rivals, so that by July 1st the "Liberation" had triumphed.
(snip)http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ht/34.1/streeter.html

[Cha]

44. So they're not letting Venezuela in

the UN? On the bright side.. Chavez could start his own UN down south..who would want to belong to an organization that wouldn't let Venequela in and had john the sniper bolten for a loudmouth US rep?

[bobbie]

46. I wouldn't hold my breath for Venezuela to get in the UN

They're not under the CIA's thumb, in spite of two CIA coup attempts, which means their presedent is a loose cannon as far as the insiders are concerned.

But I also wouldn't expect President Chavez to give up. As long as there's a breath in that man's body I truly believe he'll be fighting the bad guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8cfsYOtuiU]

[Judi Lynn]

47. So much rough stuff behind the scenes strong-arming, threatening, making

deals. Easy to see why _Bush chose Death Squad Negroponte first, then the knock-down, drag-out getting people to let John Bolton in there.

It may be Latin America's best bet is to continue consolidating their interests, in the long run, instead of continuing to let right-wing American Presidents divide and intimidate them, along with the World Bank and IMF, etc.

[Cha]

50. I'm really rooting for them!

"It may be Latin America's best bet is to continue consolidating their interests, in the long run, instead of continuing to let right-wing American Presidents divide and intimidate them, along with the World Bank and IMF, etc."

It's sickenly tragic what has been done to South American countries in the past by the US.

The UN is going to make itself obsolete kowtowing to the bushevitz.

[bobbie]

52. I have to admit to being a tad hazy on the bottom line about the UN

Ok, so according to my internet pipe-based research...a lot of this globalist crap rose out of the ashes of WW2: the CIA (albeit kinda restructured from the OSS but mostly new), UN, NATO, the *cold war*...

And I tend to see things in black and white/good vs evil terms, since...uh, I think it's true. So I see the UN as essentially an (evil) tool of the insiders and globalists, but perhaps one that has evolved into an organization that sometimes defies the insiders and tries to do some good. Sort of like the current situation wherein the insiders are now attacking the CIA because it occasionally tells the truth and defies them.

Anyway, I would like to have a better understanding of UN politics.

[bobbie]

53. "Latin America's best bet"

If you're talking about Venezuela then I sure agree. President Chavez is a friggen hero as far as I'm concerned. I'm not claiming he's perfect, but he's a helluva lot more legit than our "president." And he may be given to hyperbole, sometimes even on the floor of the UN (tho' Bush is, in fact, the devil). But if he doesn't keep a super high profile then he's dead. It's very strategic and very critical to his survival.

He's defied the odds, and the CIA, and stayed alive for years. Usually when the CIA wants you dead...you be dead.

[bobbie]

54. Good lord

I hope no country is ever again so desperate and uninformed that they go to the World Bank for "help."

[ellisonz]

104. Venezuela is in the UN. Venezuela is not winning a seat on...

the Security Council, which is non-veto.

[bobbie]

117. Ohhh, thank you ellisonz, I didn't understand the difference

I have a lot to learn about the UN.

[bobbie]

45. Thank you for posting that info and timeline

So many current events can be understood with some knowledge of the CIA.

[Judi Lynn]

48. You definitely added the missing direction that reminded some of us

we needed to add a little perspective to this, rather than letting the spinners run away with it again!

Reminding DU'ers that if they have questions about things, to plunge in and start taking advantage of the internet(S) is very helpful. Once they start arming themselves with knowledge they KNOW is real, it's impossible for blow-hards to lead them away from the real structure of these events.

[bobbie]

51. Yes Judi Lynn, the internet makes it easier than ever to learn the truth

As upsetting as that truth is.

Which of course makes the internet very dangerous to the regime...
So use it while ya got it; and protect it as much as possible (i.e., net neutrality...).

As you indicate, that's what those internet *pipes* are there for. :evilgrin:

[Gabi Hayes]

55. to all you Contras infesting this thread. here you go,

death squad fans, have fun, yuk it up. hope your posts are out of ignorance, rather than in solidarity of fifty years of US support for GENOCIDE in Guatemala:




Efrain Ríos Montt, the genocidal general known as the Pinochet of Guatemala, is suddenly back in business. On July 14, the supreme court of Guatemalan overturned a 1985 constitutional ban and permitted the former military dictator to run for president of the Latin American nation in elections slated for November.



"Twenty years ago General Ríos Montt ran a military regime that killed thousands of people," says Jose Miguel Vivanco, executive director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. "Today he should be on trial, not running for president."



Ríos Montt, who now serves as president of the Guatemalan National Congress, has run for president three other times. In 1974, the general narrowly won the presidential vote, but his election was never recognized. He tried again twice in the 1990s, but both times was prohibited by a provision of the Guatemalan constitutional banning people who had participated in military coups from becoming president.



In March 1982, Ríos Montt seized power in a bloody coup d'etat that was quietly backed by the CIA and the Reagan White House. He and his fellow generals, Maldonando Schadd and Luis Gordillo, deposed Gen. Romeo Lucas Garcia and set up a military tribunal with Montt at its head. The junta immediately suspended the constitution, set up secret tribunals and began a brutal crackdown on political dissidents that featured kidnapping, torture, and extra-judicial assassinations.

much more, fuckers

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/StClair_Rios-Montt.htm



much more



History of Guatemala's Death Squads by Robert ParryThe original Guatemalan death squads took shape in the mid-1960s under ... Other examples of Guatemala's "death squad" strategy came to light later. ...
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/HxGuatemala_DeathSquads.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


CAQ Guatemala Summer 1989 NairnGuatemala's death squads with such names as "Secret Anti-Communist Army" and "Eye for an Eye" specialize in "disappearances" of their political opponents, ...
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/GuatemalaJul89_Nairn.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages


1999/05/20GUATEMALAN DEATH SQUAD DOSSIER: Internal Military Log Reveals Fate of 183 ... The logbook covers death squad activity by Guatemalan intelligence units ...
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB15/press.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages


Guatemala DocumentsOne of the abductions that prompts Chapin to write this cable -- that of Sergio Samayoa Morales -- is a case detailed in the Guatemalan death squad document ...
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB15/index.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages


Crimes Of War Project > The BookThe situation in Guatemala was clearly an internal armed conflict, and humanitarian law applied. Therefore, the government, army, death squads, ...
www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/death-squads.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


CIA Support of Death SquadsGuatemala: Death Squads. Guatemala, 1953-84. For 30 years the CIA has been ... Guatemala. 1960-82. Trained military death squads who used "terror tactics" ...
www.serendipity.li/cia/death_squads.htm - 170k - Cached - Similar pages


LASNET Archive 1995: NAIRN: THE CIA & GUATEMALA'S DEATH SQUADSdeath squad operations that go far beyond the disclosures that have recently shaken official Washington. The news that the C.I.A. employed a Guatemalan ...
lanic.utexas.edu/la/region/news/arc/lasnet/1995/0312.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages


CNN - Guatemalan street kids face hardships, death squads ...Short article about street children in Guatemala City.
www.cnn.com/WORLD/9802/14/guatemala.street.kids/ - 18k - Cached - Similar pages


AAAS - Guatemalan Death Squad DossierThe Guatemalan armed forces kept detailed records of its death squad operations, ... Related Sites with Material on the Guatemalan Death Squad Dossier ...
shr.aaas.org/guatemala/gdsd/index.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


Rights Groups Hope Pope Will Shine Light on Guatemalan Death-SquadsRights Groups Hope Pope Will Shine Light on Guatemalan Death-Squads. by Jim Lobe. International human rights groups are hoping that Pope John Paul II, ...
www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0729-06.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

[Gabi Hayes]

56. for even more laughs, creeps, add 'CIA' to the search. if that leaves you

in stitches, but not surfeited, add "Negroponte"

[Gabi Hayes]

57. then, there's always Jennifer Harbury, whose husband was

tortured to death in Guatemala

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/12/1416231

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/08/int05036.html

that's enough fun for one day

[Judi Lynn]

60. It's so sad her husband was tortured and murdered by an officer

on the CIA payroll, she has been writing and speaking for years about this, trying to enlighten people about what's been going on in their name, and still so few know her name, or that there was ever anything serious going on in Central America, or South America, which involved the U.S. at all.

Yet it seems they all show up here to offer their two cents!

Heard her husband had been tortured over a very long time, and your second link on Jennifer Harbury discussed that:

...My husband was picked up by the Guatemalan military. He was captured alive in 1992. Then they falsely stated that he had been killed in combat. I found out six months later that he was, in fact, still alive, that they had faked his death in order to torture him long term, with medical assistance to avoid accidentally killing him, so that he would break psychologically and reveal all of his information to them.
(snip)

, it was revealed by U.S. Rep. Robert Torricelli, who was then on the Intelligence Committee in the House, that my husband had indeed been captured alive, had been held for two and a half years and severely tortured, then extra-judiciously executed or assassinated by military intelligence officials in Guatemala, who were also on the CIA payroll as paid informants.

In other words, the CIA had been paying the very people that were torturing and who eventually killed my husband without trial. The documents from the U.S. government also showed that both the CIA and the United States Embassy had known where my husband was, and the fact that he was being tortured in the hands of U.S.-paid informants, from the first week of his capture. We could have saved him.

The documents also revealed that there were 350 other prisoners in similar circumstances. That was announced to the CIA and the U.S. Embassy during the first year. We not only could have saved my husband's life, we could have saved 350 other lives. But we were not allowed to do so because we were given false information by the CIA and the U.S. – the United States Embassy.

BuzzFlash: Your husband was tortured and kept in a body cast so he couldn't escape, while interrogators tortured him nearly to death. They had a doctor there to make sure he wouldn't die, they revived him, and then tortured him some more. In your book, you point out that the interrogator in the Guatemalan military – a high-ranking officer– that this man was trained at the infamous School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia.
(snip)

I hope whoever has the time will look at the material you've provided. Thank you.

[Judi Lynn]

66. Speaking of the devil, Guatemala has suddenly apologized to her!

Guatemala apologizes to U.S. widow over murder
17 Oct 2006 01:59:15 GMT
Source: Reuters

By Mica Rosenberg

GUATEMALA CITY, Oct 16 (Reuters) - After three hunger strikes, a Supreme Court case and over a decade of waiting, U.S. lawyer Jennifer Harbury received an apology on Monday from Guatemala for the torture and murder of her guerrilla husband.

The government claimed responsibility for the disappearance of Mayan rebel leader Efrain Bamaca at an official event at the National Palace, where in 1994 Harbury went on a 32-day hunger strike to push for information about her husband's death.

"Today Guatemala wants to publicly recognize the atrocities of the past ... to stop denying the undeniable, excusing what is not excusable," said Frank La Rue, head of the government's human rights commission.

La Rue admitted Bamaca was kidnapped and murdered by state security forces.
(snip)

Her case was dismissed from the U.S. Supreme Court, but despite years of death threats, including a call on her cell phone last year and a fire bomb in her car in Washington, Harbury is still pursuing the case.
(snip/...)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16424669.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you see any odd between this SUDDEN apology to Jennifer Harbury, to Guatemala's sudden appearance under the microscope as it has been forced to oppose Hugo Chavez, along with its bloody history of persecution of its citizens on behalf of US-trained and supported right-wing figures, its long history of providing shelter to Nazi criminals like Mengele, and its continuing domination by the American right-wing interests?

[Judi Lynn]

58. You've dealt us a spectacular hand of sources, Gabi Hayes!

I just finished the first one you listed, the "History of Guatemala's Death Squads." There are a couple of areas that simply cry out to be excerpted for DU'ers. Isn't it ugly that the very rough stuff in Guatemala started with Eisenhower, and then blossomed into a complete bloodbath when Reagan held the reins of power, and that _{George W. Bush} has thoughtfully spirited some of the vilest culprits from the US-supported wars against the people in Central America, and put them in his own administration, and adding Kissinger as an advisor, as well? Good god.

~snip~
Despite these grisly facts on the ground, the annual State Department human rights survey sugarcoated the facts for the American public and praised the supposedly improved human rights situation in Guatemala. "The overall conduct of the armed forces had improved by late in the year" 1982, the report stated.
A different picture -- far closer to the secret information held by the U.S. government -- was coming from independent human rights investigators. On March 17, 1983, Americas Watch representatives condemned the Guatemalan army for human rights atrocities against the Indian population.
New York attorney Stephen L. Kass said these findings included proof that the government carried out "virtually indiscriminate murder of men, women and children of any farm regarded by the army as possibly supportive of guerrilla insurgents."
Rural women suspected of guerrilla sympathies were raped before execution, Kass said. Children were "thrown into burning homes. They are thrown in the air and speared with bayonets. We heard many, many stories of children being picked up by the ankles and swung against poles so their heads are destroyed." {AP, March 17, 1983}
(snip)

On Feb. 25, 1999, a Guatemalan truth commission issued a report on the staggering human rights crimes that Reagan and his administration had aided, abetted and concealed.
The Historical Clarification Commission, an independent human rights body, estimated that the Guatemalan conflict claimed the lives of some 200,000 people with the most savage bloodletting occurring in the 1980s. Based on a review of about 20 percent of the dead, the panel blamed the army for 93 percent of the killings and leftist guerrillas for three percent. Four percent were listed as unresolved.
The report documented that in the 1980s, the army committed 626 massacres against Mayan villages. "The massacres that eliminated entire Mayan villages are neither perfidious allegations nor figments of the imagination, but an authentic chapter in Guatemala's history," the commission concluded.
The army "completely exterminated Mayan communities, destroyed their livestock and crops," the report said. In the northern highlands, the report termed the slaughter a "genocide." Besides carrying out murder and "disappearances," the army routinely engaged in torture and rape. "The rape of women, during torture or before being murdered, was a common practice" by the military and paramilitary forces, the report found.
The report added that the "government of the United States, through various agencies including the CIA, provided direct and indirect support for some state operations." The report concluded that the U.S. government also gave money and training to a Guatemalan military that committed "acts of genocide" against the Mayans.
"Believing that the ends justified everything, the military and the state security forces blindly pursued the anticommunist struggle, without respect for any legal principles or the most elemental ethical and religious values, and in this way, completely lost any semblance of human morals," said the commission chairman, Christian Tomuschat, a German jurist.
"Within the framework of the counterinsurgency operations carried out between 1981 and 1983, in certain regions of the country agents of the Guatemalan state committed acts of genocide against groups of the Mayan people," Tomuschat said.
During a visit to Central America, on March 10, 1999, President Bill Clinton apologized for the past U.S. support of right-wing regimes in Guatemala. "For the United States, it is important that I state clearly that support for military forces and intelligence units which engaged in violence and widespread repression was wrong, and the United States must not repeat that mistake," Clinton said.
(snip)

And it's easy to see _Bush has repudiated that apology, beyond all doubt.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. And let's not forget

Guatemala is the only country in the American continent besides the US that has the death penalty. Lovely.

[Bacchus39]

77. Cuba, although not on the continent

n/t

[Critters2]

137. And don't forget the fact that Rios-Montt's son-in-law

sits on the International Relations Committee of the United States House of Representatives. So, what's in it for the Rethugs if Guatemala is on the SC?

PS I hate Jerry Weller. It just needs to be said from time to time.

[Gabi Hayes]

142. hopefully not for too much longer

you heard about what's going on with him and Foley, yes?

I can smell his district from where I live, and have been nauseated by the stench of his local offices when I drive through there once or twice a year.

[Critters2]

147. I've heard hints of something on DU

but the only thing my local paper has carried is this...

http://mywebtimes.com/ottnews/archives/ottawa/display.php?id=277316&query=Weller

This says that Weller knows something about some other member of Congress and another male page.

[Robeson]

113. Bingo. I dated a girl who was a refugee from that U.S. protectorate...

...why would anyone be surprised by this? I've heard the horror stories.

[Judi Lynn]

61. Guatemalans trying to exhume victems of a Reagan-era massacre

have been getting death threats, according to A-I:

Guatemala: Fear for safety/intimidation
PUBLIC AI Index: AMR 34/033/2002

UA 137/02 Fear for safety/intimidation 10 May 2002

GUATEMALA Jesus Tecú Osorio (m) ]
Carlos Chen Osorio (m) ] human rights defenders
Pedrina Burrero Lopez (f) ]
Juan de Dios García Xajil (m) ]

The four people named above work for a non-governmental organisation that is
exhuming the clandestine mass graves of people massacred by the army during
Guatemala's civil conflict in an area in Baja Verapaz Department inhabited by
the Maya-Achí indigenous people. All have been receiving anonymous death
threats for some time, but these have suddenly increased, and Amnesty
International believes their lives are in danger.

All four work for the Asociación para el Desarrollo Integral de las Víctimas de
la Violencia en las Verapaces Maya Achí (ADIVIMA), Association for the Integral
Development of Victims of Violence in the Verapaces Maya Achí. Two of those
threatened, Jesus Tecú Osorio and Carlos Chen Osorio, are also key witnesses in
the CALDH (The Legal Centre for Action in Human Rights) suit for genocide
against officials of the administrations of General Romero Lucas García and
Efraín Ríos Montt, the latter now President of the Guatemalan Congress.

Anonymous threats to the four have been made to the ADIVIMA office, to their
homes and mobile phones. The caller threatens to kill them if they continue
with their work. Juan de Dios García Xajil was told for example, ''te voy a
matar'' (I'm going to kill you) and ''te conozco'' (I know you), or has had
callers simply hang up when he answers. Carlos Chen was told he will be killed
unless he stopped pressing for exhumations. On 1 May Pedrina Burrero Lopez
received a call in which a funeral march was played. She was asked if she had
stopped working for ADIVIMA: if not, the caller said, ''punto y aparte''
(that's the end of the story). In addition, shots were fired opposite Carlos
Chen's home on 1 April, and close to Pedrina Burrero Lopez's home on 2 May.

ADIVIMA has carried out 19 exhumations of clandestine graves in and around the
Rabinal municipality, finding remains of 706 people. They estimate a further 61
clandestine cemeteries in the Rabinal area alone.

All four victims have been closely associated with these exhumations. ADIVIMA
fears the threats are intended to intimidate them, to stop the exhumations and
their efforts to bring those responsible for the massacres to justice. The
threats have been reported to the Public Prosecutor's Office in Salamá, Baja
Verapaz, which has been asked to investigate.
(snip/...)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR340332002?open&of=ENG-317

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds as if the murderous right-wing is very much in charge in Guatemala, still. Who would expect otherwise? Reagan helped kill off anyone who might even dream someday of dissenting.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Adding insult to injury,bloody right-wing dictator Rios Montt's daughter

is married to a U.S. Republican Congressman. Smooth, isn't it?

Illinois Republican Jerry Weller is one of the most powerful men in Congress when it comes to Latin America. His wife is the most powerful woman in Guatemala’s controversial FRG party.
By Frank Smyth
August 25, 2006

JERRY WELLER WAS running for his sixth term as congressman from Illinois’ 11th District in July 2004 when he announced that he was engaged to Zury Rios Sosa, an outspoken third-term legislator in Guatemala’s congress and the daughter of former dictator General Efrain Rios Montt. “I am thrilled to have found my best friend and soulmate,” Weller stated in a press release. “Our love knows no boundaries.” In the same release Sosa said, “With Jerry, I am starting an eternal springtime. I admire his character, his commitment to his responsibilities, and his honesty.”

Their mutual admiration notwithstanding, the announcement raised a red flag. Weller, who would be the first congressman ever to marry a member of a foreign national legislature, sat on the International Relations Committee and its western hemisphere subcommittee--would his votes be influenced by Sosa?

In a July 12 editorial the Chicago Sun-Times said, “The problem is the image it conveys to our Latin American neighbors, who are critical enough of our policies without concerns about how a vote might have been influenced by a committee member’s wife.” The following day the Bloomington Pantagraph, the biggest paper in Weller’s district, ran an editorial that said, “Any time an elected U.S. representative privy to confidential information is intimately involved with a central figure in a foreign government--and one whose father has been accused of genocide within that country--there should be concern. . . . There are some boundaries that elected representatives have to draw in the name of U.S. security. We can’t say Weller has crossed that line, but he’s sure tiptoeing down it.”
(snip)

Two years later Weller, who’s 49, and Sosa, who’s 38, are married and just had their first child. Weller is up for reelection in November. Sosa is still a leading member of Guatemala’s single-house, 158-member congress, and until earlier this year she sat on its foreign affairs committee, the counterpart to Weller’s committee. She’s the second most powerful person in her party, the Guatemalan Republican Front, or FRG, which was founded in 1989 by her father and is still led by him. It’s been plagued by accusations of corruption, money laundering, and helping drug traffickers, though no one’s accused her personally of any of those things. In many ways she’s the clean face of her party, having sponsored legislation to protect women and people with AIDS from discrimination and to protect children by regulating the advertising of tobacco and alcohol. She’s also sponsored legislation to curtail the financing of terrorists and to curb smuggling, allowing Guatemalan authorities to seize assets such as trucks, boats, and planes from drug runners.
(snip/...)

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/jerryweller/

[Critters2]

136. Weller is my Congressman, which both saddens and infuriates me

Americans don't know enough about his father-in-law's bloody history to make an informed decision on election day, but I'm doin' my best to educate 'em!

I hate Weller. And Rios Montt.

[Peace Patriot]

65. The Bush Junta would do anything to keep Chavez off the UN Security...

Counctil. I imagine they've spent a whole lot of our money on it--like the US taxpayer dollars they've poured into Chavez's opposition in Venezuela (against Venezuelan law). And if that didn't work....bribes, blackmail, threats. If you think they're spying here, can you imagine what they've doing in other countries?

They've been busy.

[muryan]

84. ..

:tinfoilhat:

[bobbie]

116. Junta tried like hell to overthrow his gov't, you can see the coup here...

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/10/03/the-revolution-will-not-be-televised/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D5832390545689805144%26sourceid%3Ddocidfeed%26hl%3Dundefined&frame=true

[muryan]

85. Id rather see a US supporting country get the seat over chavez

There isnt a day of the week i would want venezuela to have this seat. The problem is that most of you see chavez as being very anti-bush. He might be, but he is much more anti-american. So in 2008 when we finally get the white house back, i dont think he is going to change one iota and i see that as a problem.

[Judi Lynn]

88. Your "US supporting country" has been controlled since the days

of Eisenhower through pressure and control by right-wing American Presidents. You should spend some time getting a historic view of this country.

The toll on the population of Guatemala has been hideous, wildly brutal, and irresversable. Genocide. Entire villages were wiped out, people hiding, afraid to return to their houses for fear of being slaughtered by death squads, some members trained in the U.S. at the School of the Americas, working under the direction of right-wing monster dictators.

Please do yourself a favor and start reading, in order to have some depth to your comments on such serious matters.

[Freddie Stubbs]

90. Hasn't Guatemala's civil war been over for ten years now?

Isn't it true that they now have democratic elections which have been considered free and fair by international observers?

[Judi Lynn]

91. Insightful! After generations of genocide, wholesale slaughter of entire

villages to show people they'd better NOT even consider anyone other than US-supported right-wing officials, Guatemalans are understandibly reticent to get all fired up about anyone other than the "safe" ones.

Yeah, democratic. That's exactly the way true right-wing ass#oles see it.

[Bacchus39]

99. complete jibberish. has nothing to do with Guatemala's bid

for the UN. Guatemala has had several successive democratic administrations. I bet a majority of Guatemalans want to be on the security council.

[muryan]

103. Dont let facts stand of the way of hate

Anything that makes the right wing of this country seem less like complete evil is subject to scorn. I wonder what ever happened to just disagreeing with a concept and not demonizing an entire group based on the actions of a few...looking like freeper land around here.

[Bacchus39]

106. I wouldn't know, I don't do freeperland

and you?

[Bacchus39]

98. yes it has been that long. Guatemala's time has come

to be on the security council.

[w4rma]

107. Do you know where the term banana republic originated? Guatemala has been

one of the biggest examples of the "banana republic". The country was literally run by United Fruit Co. (As of 1990, Chiquita Brands International, Inc.) who exploited the labor of the folks who lived there to pick their bananas cheaply and sell them in the U.S. market at a huge profit to this multi national corporation.

And Guatemala *still* has horrible human rights and labor abuses. Also, the right-wing run country is a major trafficking point for the drug trade for opium, cocaine and heroin.

Why are you ignoring the still horrible human rights abuses and impediments to free speech in Guatemala, Bacchus39? And why are you so in love with pushing this despotically run nation to a leadership position on the security council?

[Bacchus39]

108. maybe because I lived in Guatemala and have a particular

fondness and bias towards it perhaps??? and view a seat on the Security Council as a shot in the arm for Guatemala and recognition of accomplishment in ending the civil war and recognition of Guatemala's contributions to UN missions. also, that Guatemala has never been on the SC.

and you support Venezuela why again??



Venezuela is a transhipment point for drugs and has limitations on speech and media content as well.

[w4rma]

112. Drugs from Colombia, which is another right-wing run country.

Colombia which has many of the same exact problems that Guatemala has. Colombia which Venezuela is not on good terms with because it creates more work for their police force to try to slow down and prevent drugs from passing through Venezuela from Colombia.

As for your alleged "limitations on speech and media content" in Venezuela:

Flanker posts:
There is more freedom of speech in Venezuela than in the US
I have lived on the latter and currently live in the former, and find the accusations to be the real caricature, when most are either lying (Bolton) or simply don't know. Anyone is welcome to find out instead of linking to HRW articles that are themselves foreign to reality. I will add this post to my journal in case anybody wants to link to it.


Jailed Journalists

There are 0 jailed journalists in Venezuela http://www.cpj.org/attacks05/pages05/imprison_05.html a few stood trial but none were jailed, the only one that may go to jail if caught is Patricia Poleo and indeed the only one to flee the country (currently in the states) she is wanted for being an intellectual mastermind of the Danilo Anderson murder though.

There are four main private TV channels over the airwaves:

Globovision http://www.globovision.com/index.php If I recall the only 24 hour news channel that is broad casted (ie using public airwaves) in the world, they are DEEPLY opposed to Chavez and his government, Fox News does not hold a candle to it, if you want to see it for yourself there is a video link (in spanish obviously), but you may have to pay a fee, if you do watch prime time programing.

RCTV http://www.rctv.net / More of a variety channel, its newscasts and opinion is DEEPLY opposed to the government, They normally appear in the morning or later at night, they have a free video cast, its owner Marciel Granier is also a vocal Chavez critic.

Venevision http://www.venevision.net / Used to be like the above, but they are a bit more moderate nowadays (moderate is defined by just showing the other side, it is that bad) Mostly because its owner Cisneros has more or less accepted his lack of real power, and he has plenty of other business interests in the country.

Televen http://www.venevision.net / Another variety channel, similar to Venevision, they are more moderate because the government advertises on it or at least that is a theory, extremists were also fired from their time slots, but it had more to do with lower ratings than anything else, The more extremist the channel the lower the ratings it gets, and they keep getting lower.

There are three public TV Channels over the airwaves + Telesur (cable only I think)

VTV: http://www.vtv.gov.ve / The original public Channel, there are plans to turn it into a 24 hour news channel, today it is closer in style to PBS culture, variety, news, opinion. Of course it is openly ideological to Chavez on opinion programing. it has a video link.

Vive: www.vive.gob.ve / a new public channel, mostly for political documentaries, don't watch it much

ANTV: www.antv.gob.ve / C-Span clone, controlled by the Legislature.

Radio

There are far too many to show them all, so I will go with the two major ones:

Union Radio http://www.unionradio.com.ve / Privately owned, the only one that has a direct equivalent in the states, it is
right wing talk radio, same extremism, same ethical standards, though with musical intermissions, http://200.74.220.116:8080/ramgen/encoder/noticias.rm here is an audio link (spanish) recommend the afternoons. A recent conspiracy theory two of their talking heads posited yesterday was that VTV digitally added the applauses to Chavez speech... that type of irrationality.

RNV http://www.rnv.gov.ve/noticias / Similar to VTV but on radio, has an audio link.

Print

Now it gets easier because a few of them can be easily read online and translated to with google or altavista.

El Universal www.eud.com Strong opposition newspaper, check out their opinion pieces in particular http://opinion.eluniversal.com / they also have an english version but that never makes the print edition so why bother.

El Nacional http://el-nacional.com / Another opposition newspaper, articles can be read by paid subscription

Tal Cual http://www.talcualdigital.com / Another strong Chavez critic, its editor and star writer attempted a campaign for the presidency but failed to get more than 3% in the press polls, he now backs the unity opposition candidate, the only credit he gets is that on occasion he blisters the opposition as well. Also has paid subscription.

Panorama www.panodi.com Regional Zulia paper and perhaps the most sympathetic to Chavez in all of the privately owned media. free but lousy archives.

Ultimas Noticias http://www.ultimasnoticias.com.ve / The most neutral media in the country and most sold newspaper, displacing both El Universal and Nacional during this political saga. paid subscription.

There are plenty more opposition papers but I have not read them in detail you can find the rest here: http://www.prensaescrita.com/america/venezuela.php in particular el mundo, nuevo pais, notitarde, etc. all opposition papers.

Internet

Common citizens also have their say and it generally more radicalized

Noticiero Digital www.noticierodigital.com on the surface it si an opinion aggregator (visually elegant as well, check out their opinion pieces on the right) but its forums http://www.noticierodigital.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=f65ff3c3c398944a83b160a076886139 is a freerpublic like clone, only more extreme (there is the occasional Pinochet appreciation thread). Its only saving grace is that anyone can post regardless of political affiliation, just that there are far fewer Chavistas.

aporrea http://aporrea.org / The other side of the coin. Less extreme because they are less angry.

A political cartoons can also bridge the language divide published in Tal Cual.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2187974

[Bacchus39]

121. free speech huh?? so why this??

The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.

The human rights bodies of the United Nations and of the Organization of American States have repeatedly urged states to repeal such provisions.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm


did you catch that?? its a criminal offense to insult the president.



and believe me the feeling between Colombia and Venezuela is mutual.

[Flanker]

124. It has always been ilegal to insult the president...

I did not see you whining about it then. Why? becasue it was never enforced and you never klnew about it, guess what? even though punishments were increased it is still not enforced today either, and I can still find dozens of articles calling him a dictator.

[Bacchus39]

125. what was the purpose of increasing the penalties??

Chile and Costa Rica just recently rescinded their antiquated desacato laws but Venezuela increased the penalties? why??

don't tell me how great free speech is in Venezuela when the government has just taken measures (at least attempted to) to restrict it.

[Flanker]

139. It is better than in the US

Go ahead call for Bush's assasination, and I will contact the FBI to see them explain it to you, I on the other hand will call for the assasination of Chavez and you can inform anyone.

As I said it was always the law, but you did not care because you had no bone to grind. As to why it happened? Chavez has VERY thick skin, you have no freaking idea how thick, but his followers do not. Congress makes the law, the Excutive enforces it. To date maybe 0.00001% has been prosecuted out of the insults, and of those that reach the court (None for insulting Chavez) he has pardoned one or two before they even served time.

[Bacchus39]

170. the penalties were increased under Chavez

why is that?

why do they want to limit free speech and political criticism? can you imagine if it were a crime to insult Bush???

[Judi Lynn]

171. Here's a photo of a sign carried by an a-hole opposition member

during an opposition parade in Caracas. Probably the crowning achievement of his stupid, spiteful life!

[bobbie]

114. You nailed it w4rma, great info about Guatamala's history

And we can thank the CIA for creating that banana republic.

In 1954 the CIA overthrew the elected Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz. They deemed Arbenz a dangerous communist after his government appropriated unused land owned by the United Fruit Company (now Chiquita Banana) in order to redistribute land to poor peasants. United Fruit was paid for their land but they thought it was too little.

CIA Director (and former attorney to Prescott Bush) Allen Dulles had a financial interest in United Fruit. Power “was assumed by Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas, who had at one time received military training at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Armas gave United Fruit its land back, banned banana workers unions, abolished the tax on interest and dividends to foreign investors, and jailed thousands. The CIA provided lists of alleged "communists", including union leaders, who were promptly executed. Castillo Arma's brutal crackdown touched off the civil war in 1960 which dragged on for 36 years and killed over one hundred thousand (100,000) people --in a country with a current population of only 13 million.” http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=962298

And the CIA tends to pay for its bloody operations by selling or trading drugs.

Guatamala is still under the CIA's thumb. It's within that context that they hold "democratic" elections.

[Judi Lynn]

118. Excellent bit of information to share, bobbie. So glad to see it.

What has been done to exploit the desperately poor of the Western Hemisphere is beyond evil. It should require a completely new term for itself. There is nothing more vicious than what has happened to the people of Central and South America at the hands of the monsters running the companies which rape the resources and slaughter the people who don't serve them well enough or cheaply enough.

It surely makes one pray there is a hell far more terrifying than one can possibly imagine waiting for these worthless, murderous parasites.

[Shakespeare]

110. You have that exactly backwards. He is NOT anti-American.

And if you have trouble understanding why....well, I'm not sure where to start with you.

I think I'd be anti-Bush, too, if he repeatedly tried to have me overthrown and/or assassinated.

[nolabels]

166. Hugo, brave Anti-imperialist, from long line of American Anti-imperialist

How can be Anti-American? Most of the people in this hemisphere agree with Hugo. To me it looks like Bush does more bidding for the peoples across the oceans than he he does for people over here on this side of the world. Like this whole thing shouldn't even be a debate. Why even is the rest of world butting in here? Isn't this a regional thing? Freaking crap, all this is just plain crap :puke:

All the bush ass kissers need to go the eff home, reasoning with them is only foolishness stacked on foolishness

[0rganism]

120. yet this "anti-American" has been giving away oil to the American poor

You could, of course, attach a cynical or even sinister motivation to this, in terms of undercutting American influence on oil markets. However, it is difficult to make a (credible) case that Chavez actually has anything against Americans, generally.

If by "much more anti-american", you mean "much more anti-imperialist and anti-corporatist", we might have some ground on which to agree.

And if, in 2008, the Democrats win the whitehouse only to continue business as usual with respect to latin America, then we do indeed have a problem -- and it isn't Hugo Chavez.

[EFerrari]

131. As a previous poster said you have that exactly backwards.

If Chavez were anti-American, do you honestly think he'd have so many friends and supporters among American progressives?

Really, stop listening to the Bush media.

[Adelante]

89. 14th round: Guatemala 108; Venezuela 76

[Adelante]

92. 15th round: Guatemala 107; Venezuela 78

[Adelante]

97. 16th round: Guatemala 108; Venezuela 76.

[Adelante]

100. 17th round: Guatemala 107; Venezuela 77

[Adelante]

101. 19th round: Guatemala 107; Venezuela 79

[Yupster]

105. Seems like it's time

for a compromise candidate to arise.

[PeaceProgProsp]

135. Seems like it's time for Bolton to stay in his seat and let

the Guatemalan and Venezuelan ambassadors work the room (and, if you look at post 132, it looks like Guatemala isn't interested in working the room).

[rinsd]

93. Do you have a source for that? I'd like to follow it as well.

Thanks in advance.

[Adelante]

94. Here you go

http://english.eluniversal.com/

Top left.

[rinsd]

95. Thank you (nt)

[Matilda]

111. I was a bit surprised to see, in photos at eluniversal,

that Guetamala and Venezuela have been giving presents to other member nations.

I was naive enough to suppose that that kind of vote-buying would be out of line at the UN.

It just seems a bit - grubby?

[Adelante]

123. Politics, like everywhere

Horse trading and nutcracking.

[Adelante]

119. 28th round: Guatemala 105; Venezuela 79

[Adelante]

122. 29th round: Guatemala 107; Venezuela 77

[Adelante]

127. 31st round: Guatemala 108; Venezuela 77

[Matilda]

128. Bolton must be working his socks off.

[Matilda]

132. The "Wretched of the Earth" Raise Their Voices of Dignity in the UN

"Most papers have portrayed the battle taking place at the UN, for the Security Council seat, as one
in which Guatemala has beat Venezuela in most voting rounds. This, however, is an over-simplified
view of what has been happening. Rather, the success of Venezuela's candidacy cannot be measured
in terms of rounds won or lost because the dignity and voice of the voiceless cannot be negotiated,
silenced or beaten. The dignity of the countries backing Venezuela cannot be understood at the UN
because it is not for sale."

(snip)

Venezuela has been emphatic in affirming that it is not competing with its sister republic of
Guatemala for the Security Council seat, but is competing with the Empire, the United States. And
this has been evident by the constant lobbying and movement between delegations all day the US
Ambassador - a shameful lobbying - while the Guatemalan Ambassador remained in his seat, watching
over the voting."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1855


It is rather wonderful that this solid little core of countries, numbering around the 77 mark, is
standing steadfastly by Venezuela. It's always heartening when the little guys stand up to the
big guys, even if they can't win in the end. They have already made their point.

[PeaceProgProsp]

134. Is there a list of these brave countries somewhere?

[Matilda]

140. I've searched the UN pages without success so far.

The ballots are secret, so all I've been able to find out is that it
was believed that Venezuela's major support would come from Asia, Africa
and those Latin American countries receiving support from Venezuela,
while Europe is supporting Guatemala. But I did read during the week
that Bolivia was abstaining, which is a surprise - Morales is close to
Chavez, so it looks like perhaps Bolivia has been leant on by the US.

The longest ballot on record is that of 1979, when Cuba and Colombia
went 154 rounds. On the 155th, Mexico entered the contest and was
elected. Second longest was 1960, between Poland and Turkey, which
went 52 rounds, and in the end they agreed to split the seat, each
taking one year.

A link to the only UN briefing I could find on this, halfway down the
page:

http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2006/db061019.doc.htm

Edit: Ecuador abstaining, not Bolivia.

[rinsd]

138. The unvarnished truth from Chavez propaganda arm

:eyes:

[bobbie]

148. I've heard more truth from President Chavez in the past month

Than I have from the illegitimate US regime in the past six years.

[upi402]

149. exactly

I still haven't found where Chavez ordered human rights abuses. Just accusation lodged with Amnesty by the rightist junta elites still trying to get him...

by any means necessary.

I got it -what he did at the UN podium. I got it. It scared the hell out of the Republicans.

[bobbie]

150. Exactly Exactly. Chavez's substantial UN remarks weren't reported

Yeah we heard a lot about the fact that he (correctly) identified El Diablo in a virtual lineup. But how many people here heard about his very accurate accusations against the Bush regime?

His big point was that Bush's regime sponsors terrorists while claiming to fight terrorism. He also comes out and says that the CIA was involved in 911. Or as Kevin Tillman said so perfectly:

"Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is."

Well here are excerpts of a report on Chavez's UN remarks that I bet most people haven't seen:

http://infowars.com/articles/ww3/chavez_slams_us_protection_posada_at_un.htm

"Chavez Slams U.S. Protection Of CIA Plane Bomber Posada At UN
Press fascination with "devil" quote overshadows Venezuelan President's expose of state sponsored terror, reference to 9/11 inside job

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | September 21 2006

In focusing solely on Hugo Chavez's characterization of Bush as the devil, the mainstream media have succeeded in aiming attention away from the Venezuelan President's most salient point made during his UN speech - CIA control of terror cells around the world and their protection of plane bomber Luis Posada.

According to documents released by the George Washington University's National Security Archive, and verified by the BBC , Luis Posada Carriles was a CIA agent and on the payroll from the 1960s until mid-1976.

Posada was part of an anti-Cuban terror cell called Commanders of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU), led by another CIA operative Orlando Bosch. From the mid-1970's Posada and Bosch instigated a reign of terror that spanned seven countries, carrying out over 50 bombings and political assassinations - including the October 1976 bombing of a Cuban passenger plane as it took off from Barbados, killing 73 innocent people on board.

All at the behest of the current President's father and then CIA Director George H.W. Bush.

Posada and Bosch were arrested and jailed in Venezuela but promptly escaped in 1985 when money from Miami, funneled in by fellow terrorist Gaspar Jimenez Escobedo, was used to bribe prison guards.
...
After El Salvador, Posada was given safe passage by the U.S. government and allowed to continue to carry out terrorist atrocities, including a wave of tourist industry bombings in Havana during the 1990's.

Posada was finally arrested by federal agents in Miami in May of 2005, but a recent ruling by US magistrate Norbert Garney in El Paso, Texas, will pave the way for the CIA asset and mass murderer to be released once again.

Whether or not you agree with the politics of trying to undermine Communist regimes during the Cold War - the fact remains that the U.S. government has historically created and hired terrorist organizations to carry out acts of mass murder of innocent people to further geopolitical agendas - and has then deliberately protected terrorists from arrest or prosecution.

The hypocrisy of a government and a Bush dynasty supposedly engaged in a war on terror and yet concurrently the biggest sponsor of global terror was made plain by Chavez during his speech yesterday.

"And we must recall in this room that in just a few days there will be another anniversary. Thirty years will have passed from this other horrendous terrorist attack on the Cuban plan e, where 73 innocents died, a Cubana de Aviacion airliner," said Chavez.

"And where is the biggest terrorist of this continent who took the responsibility for blowing up the plane? He spent a few years in jail in Venezuela. Thanks to CIA and then government officials, he was allowed to escape, and he lives here in this country, protected by the government."

"And he was convicted. He has confessed to his crime. But the U.S. government has double standards. It protects terrorism when it wants to," said the Venezuelan President.

"I accuse the American government of protecting terrorists and of having a completely cynical discourse."

Subsequent media response to Chavez's speech framed the debate to only include discussion of his "devil" reference - an almost offhand joke at the start of the talk - and completely ignored the detailed enunciation of the U.S. government's protection of the CIA's terrorist operatives.
...
Chavez again alluded to U.S. government complicity in 9/11, a subject he had raised in a previous speech.

"And I would just add one thing: Those who perpetrated this crime are free. And that other event where an American citizen also died were American themselves. They were CIA killers, terrorists."

Amid the difficult translation, Chavez is clearly making reference to elements of the CIA being behind 9/11.

[upi402]

153. good to not be 100% alone n/t

[bobbie]

156. Oh you're most definitely not alone upi402

And notice when we report hard facts showing the good that President Chavez does, it gets real real quiet in this thread. Facts, as opposed to name calling, are hard to dispute.

[Judi Lynn]

154. That's an unforgettable quote by Kevin Tillman:

"Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is."

Kevin, on the left with his brother, the late Pat Tillman

By the way, I've read the Miami terrorists _Bush has let back into the country, one wanted by Venezuela (Posada) had enough plastic explosive in Panama in their plan to blow up the auditorium, to level two city blocks.

This from the same people who pulled off the first bombing of an airliner in flight in the Western Hemisphere, when they killed everyone on board the Cubana airliner, including children.

Thanks for your valuable comments.

[bobbie]

157. It is an unforgettable quote Judi Lynn, Kevin wrote an unforgettable essay

Both of the Tillman brothers are/were truly fine individuals. Pat was misrepresented in the media, and by Bush; he was used as propaganda for their cause when in fact he quickly realized the Iraq war was a fraud, as was Bush. He spoke out scathingly about Bush, urging people not to vote for him. He arranged to meet with Noam Chomsky; he kept a *journal*... He was murdered by his own men and the journal has never been found. Perhaps it was burned along with his clothes immediately after the murder.

This incident went way beyond the "friendly fire" explanation that the gov't finally grudgingly admitted to--after they'd used Pat's death for their own purposes. He was murdered because he, the poster boy for Bush's war, had learned and watched and thought and read and evolved and was soon to generate a lot of bad publicity for the regime.

I think Pat's family knows all this. Kevin certainly seems to.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/110605Z.shtml

>By the way, I've read the Miami terrorists Bush has let back into the country, one wanted by
>Venezuela (Posada) had enough plastic explosive in Panama in their plan to blow up the auditorium,
>to level two city blocks.

Oh? I didn't know about that little gem. But then Bush's terrorists are immune from the "War on Terrorism" aren't they?

>This from the same people who pulled off the first bombing of an airliner in flight in the Western >Hemisphere, when they killed everyone on board the Cubana airliner, including children.

Including all members of the Cuban fencing team I think. Is that the team that was on board?

>Thanks for your valuable comments.

U 2.

[Judi Lynn]

160. The Cuban National Fencing team was returning from Venezuela,

after having competed there, taking gold and silver prizes:

Aboard CU-455 were 73 persons. 57 of the passengers were Cubans. 11 aboard were Guyanese, including a little nine year old girl named Harry Paul. The remaining five passengers were Koreans. Those on board averaged only 30 years of age.

Traveling with the group were 24 members of the Cuban fencing team, many of them teen-agers, fresh from gold medal victories at the Youth Fencing Championship in Caracas. One of the young fencers, Nancy Uranga, was only twenty-three years old and pregnant. The athletes proudly wore their medals dangling over their clothes, as they boarded the aircraft.

http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/cubaandterrorism/Jose%20Pertierra%20Sept%2023%20Posada%20Presentation.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's a DU poster living in Jamaica who had a friend among the young medical students from Guyana who were on board the plane, as well. I have seen her posts a few times on her memory of that event and its impact.

Posada Carriles would probably be living freely in Miami this moment if he hadn't gotten cocky and held his own personal press conference to boast about himself, which caught the interest of news people outside Miami, and led to his arrest a little later by the FBI.

(I'm sure you recall that _Bush the Elder pardoned bomber/mass murderer Orlando Bosch, who also was "sprung" from prison in Venezuela by bribes to prison guards with money from the Cuban American National Foundation in Miami, and that _{George W. Bush} released a couple of Cuban "exile" terrorist/bombers who murdered Chilean diplomat Orlando Letelier on the streets of Washington D.C., after they served only several years. _Bushes are very fond of terrorists who serve purposes they like. They go out of their way to help them.)

As Orlando Bosch said of the teenagers, and apparently the 9 year old kid on the Cubana airliner, "There were no innocents on that plane."http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/mnt122001nielsen.htm

[bobbie]

163. That's a helluva quote

"There were no innocents on that plane."http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticle..."
From a truly evil individual.

Orlando Bosch was also in Dealey Plaza the day of President Kennedy's assassination. This may be a photo of him about 30-60 seconds after the fatal shot was fired from directly behind him--behind the fence. Scroll down.

http://www.copweb.be/Orlando%20Bosch%20Avila.htm

Presumably he'd also say that Kennedy was no innocent.

Also in Dallas that day--his old pal George HW Bush... (And Richard Nixon of course.)

[1932]

155. Here's an mp3 of the UN speech

http://www.archive.org/details/Hugo_Chavez_UN_Sept_20_2006_eng_trans

[bobbie]

158. Excellent 1932, thank you so much

I've yet to listen to the entire thing (I've read it) and wanted to. Great link.

Kick ass Hugo...

[roody]

152. Discussion from Democracy Now

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/20/1434200

[bobbie]

159. roody this is a helluva great link!

Not only is the topic quite interesting..., but the interview was done by Amy Goodman--IMO the finest journalist we have. Thank you for posting it!

[roody]

162. Too bad the translator was not very good. eom

[upi402]

161. They played Bolton on Democracy Now!

and he sounded like an absolute turd. We must be doing some real slimy dealing behind the scenes but I wasn't able to hear what it was exactly from the Venezuela. ambassador.
:shrug:
And Bolton had no reasoning as to WHY the USA was trying so hard to submarine Chavez. We all know the Americas is in our grip, historically, and is punished severely if they try to wriggle loose. We have murdered democratically elected leaders before trying to do the same to Chavez, just because they aren't corporatist.

[bobbie]

165. Ah hell why doesn't Bolton just come out and say it?

The Bush klan is trying hard to submarine Chavez because we want to steal his oil like we did with Iraq. There, was that so hard to say? :evilgrin:

"Corporatist"--good term. Very accurate.

[Freddie Stubbs]

167. Do you beleive that President Kerry would have supported Chavez's UN bid?

I kind of doubt it:

Kerry Attacks Venezuela's Chavez

Reuters
March 22, 2004

By Pascal Fletcher
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - U.S. Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has attacked Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as a dubious democrat hostile to U.S. interests, delivering a slap in the face to the leftist leader who had portrayed Kerry as a potential friend.

The Kerry statement on his Web site made front-page news in Venezuela on Monday, nearly two weeks after Chavez had publicly praised the Democrat contender, hailing his health care plans and likening him to assassinated U.S. President John Kennedy.

In his declaration dated March 19, the Massachusetts senator accused Chavez of undermining Venezuela's democracy, supporting Colombian rebels and "narco-terrorists" and trying to torpedo a constitutional bid by foes to hold a referendum on his rule.

Condemning Chavez's policies as "detrimental to our interests," Kerry said the United States should lead international pressure to persuade him to allow a recall vote.

more: http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/1683.html

[Flanker]

168. Even though I have no ilusions those hostilities

Were to get Florida due to the large Cuban and Venezuelan exile community extremly intolerant and extremely right wing.

http://www.youtube.com/v/qPDpcQC_3gA

Here is a recent video about the oposition candiadate, in Venezuela he is all lovy dovy claiming to represent everybody, but whenever within the confines of the extremists he calls a third of the country paraistes for living of government welfare (which his campaign misleadingly supports)

In the end Kerry had envy of Chavez...

[Judi Lynn]

169. Very resourceful! Kerry has succumbed to lobbying from opposition a-holes.

It was discussed at D.U. repeatedly by Democrats in earlier days.

We have all read the swinish boasts made by Curtis Reed, of the "Free Venezuela" organization operating in South Florida, in Tampa, which also boasts a Cuban "exile" population, like Miami. The two societies have combined for an anti-Chavez parade, on a day the entire rest of the world poured into the streets to protest _Bush's pending vile, deceitful, slaughter in Iraq. As their guests of honor, leading the parade, they featured two of the coup leaders, the President of Fedecamaras, Carlos Fernandez, and Carlos Ortega, the crooked union boss who had lead the strikes on U.S. taxpayers' money.



Miami right-wing loser parade




coup leaders Carlos Fernandez, Carlos Ortega, Fernandez and Ortega

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Open letter from Curtis Reed, President of "Free Venezuela" in South Florida, anti-Chavez activist. Like all true a-holes, he wanted to make sure everyone possible realizes his importance:

Published: Tuesday, March 23, 2004
Bylined to: Curtis Reed

Tampa-based Free Venezuela, Inc: Our goal is regime change in Venezuela

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:39:42 GMT
From: Curtis Reed [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Error: It was Venezuelans in TAMPA

In David Coleman's article "Venezuela's relations with USA to improve if Bush 2 loses election this fall" you stated that Senator Kerry's statement regarding the Chavez regime amounted to "Parroting anti-Venezuelan Miami Herald propaganda."

In fact, the Kerry position statement was the result of the effort of Venezuelan-Americans from the Tampa area who contacted his camp and conducted an education campaign to be sure that Kerry understood what a threat the Chavez regime represents to US interests, regional stability, and how it endangers democracy across the hemisphere.

We have been working constantly over several years to establish good contacts with our representatives, and it was through those contacts that we made direct contact with John Kerry and delivered to him the message you will find below.

We are now in the process of publishing more Op-Ed articles, organizing round table discussions about the Chavez regime, and speaking out on nationally syndicated radio shows. Let there be no confusion: the "Miami Mafia" had nothing to do with this. It was the result of hard work by US citizens and Venezuelan expatriate organizations like FREE VENEZUELA that we influenced Kerry, and we will continue to push US policy until we achieve our goal.

Our goal: regime change in Venezuela.

Finally, let your communist friends know that their propaganda machines are failing, and the tide has turned against the Chavez dictatorship. We have convinced Democrats and Republicans alike that Chavez and his criminal henchmen are the antithesis to Democratic principles.

Have a nice day.

Curtis Reed
[e-mail]

http://vheadline.org/readnews.asp?id=16656

[bobbie]

172. Hm, interesting Freddie--thanks for the quote

Normally I don't like to speculate, but given that Kerry is on the record with such remarks we do have a pretty good clue. I wouldn't expect Kerry to change policy after all he's the ultimate insider, Skull and Bone member, who made it clear in 2004 that he would not oppose the war machine by putting an end to their profits. Of course he's since recanted, but I don't trust him.

Hell, that just puts him in synch with other so-called Democrats though. After President Chavez's speech, Nancy Pelosi and Charlie Rangel (of all people) trashed him in the media. So I have no illusions that the figureheads pretending to represent the people would have good relations with President Chavez--the teller of embarassing truths.

[Minstrel Boy]

173. Here's Chavez's praise for Kerry

referred to in your article:

"His speech seemed a lot like that of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. God free him from the fate of John Fitzgerald Kennedy… The Democratic Senator said that, for the people of the United States, his health care plan had to become a right for everyone and not a privilege for a few. Someone could have said, if this man had come here to visit the Adentro Barrio, ‘Chávez bought him already! He’s a Chavista!’ But no: He is a human being, and I believe he is pointed in the right direction. It is the direction that the people from the United States to the Southern Cone demand. The world demands equality, justice… If we leaders don’t understand this, the future of the world will bring the horror of new wars… I have here the path to this peaceful revolution. We will make it a reality to end, forever, the possibility of violence."

Al Giordano's comment:

In a sane U.S. political landscape, such inspired words from an elected Latin American leader would generate pride from the candidate that moved him from afar, pleasure to his supporters, and general admiration from the press and public. It is long overdue, after all, that the United States finds and respects its natural allies in this hemisphere instead of trying futily to colonize them. But the Commercial Media-soaked U.S. political system is too toxic to understand even its own rare victories. Here was the most independent elected leader in Latin America trying to make friends with the next president of the United States, a country whose government had recently tried, and keeps trying, to topple him, declaring, again, his adherence to that nation’s highest (it says) principle: democracy.
http://www.narconews.com/Issue32/article937.html

[bobbie]

175. Education Prez Chavez style

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2900719&mesg_id=2900719

Suggesting that people read a respected American author and professor--Noam Chomsky--at an esteemed college and think about what he said and decide for themselves what the truth is? That fiend! That dictator!!!

:evilgrin:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

177. Shocked? Surprised?

Uh, no.

Neither country has power to do shit in the SC. It's a beauty pageant.