Israeli FM says Iran nuclear programme threatens entire world

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=2&u=/afp/20030721/ts_afp/iran_nuclear_israel_030721132221

BRUSSELS (AFP) - Iran's nuclear programme is a threat to the stability of the entire world, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom warned the European Union (news - web sites).

"I told them that Iran is threatening the stability not only of the region but of the entire world," Shalom said after a meeting with his counterparts from the 15-member EU.

Israel, along with the United States, claims that its archfoe Iran is using an atomic energy programme as a cover for secret nuclear weapons development. Israel has also become alarmed by Iran's development of a new ballistic missile that brings the Jewish state within reach of the Islamic republic.

"Iran is now trying to do everything to have a nuclear weapon and that can damage and threaten not only the Middle East. It can threaten Europe, the southern part of Russia," Shalom said.

He called for the European Union to play a key role in preventing Iran from achieving such a capability.

more

[htuttle]

1. Pot....

....meet Kettle.


Kettle, Pot.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. You Stole My Line, Tuttle!

That's exactly what i thought when i read Don's headline. Literally word for word. It would be funny, except for the reality part of what we'd both be trying to describe.
The Professor

[schultzee]

21. So Israel's poodle, the USA, should do something, right?

I am just sick of the USA having wars to help Israel.

[Resistance]

30. you mean it doesnt bother you ...

that the US invaded Iraq, in some degree, to help open up that oil pipeline to Israel?

Even though, simultaneous to the invasion, Israel was busy murdering an American and a British peace activist?

Most Democrats go right along with it - so what's your problem?

[SyracuseDemocrat]

115. maybe Israel comes for your house next

you're in the west bank, aren't you?

[DeathvadeR]

45. nice one.......

And lets just forget all about them finding a secret Plant in N.Korea the other day. I damn near beleive, when N.Korea said they have 300+ nukes, they might have ment it......

[Josh]

49. Not the same -

Israel's nukes are hardly going to fall into the hands of terrorists who want to destroy the United States.

[Wonk]

50. Yeah, good thing Israel is a signatory to the Nuclear NPT. Oh, wait...

they aren't.

http://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=Nuclear+%22Non-Proliferation%22+Treaty+Israel

[bahrbearian]

89. Funny Things Change.

Sadam was on our side right!

[ward919]

2. Look for some "black-bag" jobs to put blame on Iran

Do these SOBs ever get tired of causing chaos and carnage?

[gratuitous]

3. Sic 'em George!

You have your orders.

[Julien Sorel]

4. Only wise and peace-loving nations, that do not prey on their

neighbors, should have nuclear weapons. Look at Israel's peaceful history, for example. A nation that has been in existence for scarcely 55 years, and they've started 4 wars, demand on a regular basis that the U.S. invade this or that country, and are occupying the lands of another people, with no sign of surrendering those lands. Now that's a nation that deserves nuclear weapons, and has the right to make pronouncements on which country threatens the peace. Iran, on the other, hand, has started no wars in the past 55 years.

Maybe the Iranians should start a few wars, threaten people, get an occupation or two going. Then they'd be worthy of joining the nuclear club -- just like Israel.

[Kamika]

10. hhmm

even if i agree israel has part of it they didnt start all the wars

[Julien Sorel]

14. Please show me where I said Israel did?

[Darranar]

42. STARTED four wars?

Two (Six Day War, Lebanon War.) Get your facts straight.

[Julien Sorel]

69. LOL

1) the 1982 invasion of Lebanon; 2) the 1956 invasion of Egypt; 3)the 1967 six days War; 4) the 1996 invasion of Lebanon. I could make a case for Israel starting the 1948 war by expelling Arabs from Palestine as well, but it would be more effort than I care to put in given your knowledge level.

[Submariner]

60. And they purposely attacked the USS Liberty in 1967

murdering 34 U.S. sailors to coverup there Golan Heights land grab. The sad part is that asshole LBJ aided and abetted them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

93. This Offensive Claim Has Already Been Rebutted

By all parties involved, saved the most stubborn conspiracy theorists.

DTH

[The Stranger]

98. You mean those "conspiracy theorists" that were on board the ship

while it was attacked? It would be better for Israel to accept the fact that the USS Liberty happened, make reparations and move on. The more it is denied -- key word there, DENIAL -- the less likely it will go away.

It really is time to stop the denial.

[Wonder]

101. Is James Bramford a "conspiracy theorist"?

He is among so many others that have with due diligence put many of the puzzle pieces into a perspective which begins quite adeptly to illuminate the "conspiracy" that was at play here.

It never ceases to amaze me just how much US/Israeli propaganda lends itself to "knocking out of the water" even the most viable historic accounts. Many dots have been connected, by more than one account of this inicident, as well as the varying contradictory historic analyses available on the 6 day war. 35 years later U.S.S. Liberty is hardly a conspiracy theory IMHO.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. Fog of War Does Exist, and Reparations Have Been Paid

I know that certain who are not conversant with military matters may be unaware of it, but "fog of war" and "friendly fire" actually do happen all the time, tragically.

Investigations by both the U.S. and Israel have concluded this was merely a tragic accident, not some evil conspiracy theory. Here are a couple of websites that explore the issue:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Return_of_the_USS_Liberty.asp

http://www.thelibertyincident.com/index.htm

Additionally, reparations have already been paid:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/ussliberty.html

DTH

[Submariner]

103. Try Friendless Fire?

Don't give me that 'fog of war' bullshit. That is for combat on the battlefield and multi-ship fighting. This was a clear day with a non-threatening ship flying her colors clearly being first stalked by the Israeli's and then attacked to shut down it's communications with the fleet and Washington. Read the testimony of the crew, including the jewish crewmembers. Judge Cristol is full of crap about his investigations.

All Israel has to do is be honorable, and tell the truth. Until then, they alienate many of us familiar with the attack.

Snip >
None of this may matter, because official support for the crew remains nonexistent. But growing numbers of former senior government and military officials have begun speaking out. Among those in support of the ship's 200-plus survivors, in addition to those mentioned previously and in the accompanying sidebar, are: former Chief of Naval Operations and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer, then CIA Director Richard Helms, then-NSA Director Marshall Carter, Carter's Deputy Louis Tordella (who wrote on the Israeli Navy's report, "A nice whitewash!"), NSA "Liberty incident" analyst Walter Deeley, and Hayden Peake, professor of intelligence history at the Joint Military Intelligence College and retired CIA officer.52

Will the Liberty remain a sort of "Flying Dutchman," sailing forever around her poor men's souls? Until survivors get what they call "justice"—that elusive open forum—it seems her restless ghost will do just that.

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm

[Wonder]

104. honor is challenging

depending on what collusion is revealed between GOI and GOA at that time. From what I have gathered on this, the US bears their share of responsibility in terms of this coverup as well.

This incident has been submerged. However, it looks like it promises to rise to the surface, along with everything else presently bursting at the seams. Perhaps the truth will emerge.

I encountered this article, "Unfriendly Fire" just after the History channel aired the documentary against all attempts to have it censored or discredit it by Michael Oren and those right wing think tanks and lobbies he is affiliated with. Thanks to an msn buddy of mine that decided to dig into the six day war and U.S.S. Liberty.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Yawn

The only thing the sailors would know is that they were under attack. No one disputes it was the Israelis, but it is a completely different thing to contend that it was deliberate. It was a tragic accident, as all credible persons have indicated.

"Fog of war" is very real (even more so in 1967 than now), and your efforts to deny it serve only to highlight a dire lack of understanding in military affairs.

There was a very informative thread on this on DU1. The Magistrate and Lithos (one of the FA/NS Moderators) both presented a compelling case in support of the position that it was merely a tragic accident, despite the best efforts of certain people who have axes to grind against Israel.

DTH

[Submariner]

112. Denial may make it for Bush, but it doesn't cut it here

The only thing the sailors would know is that they were under attack. It was a tragic accident, as all credible persons have indicated.

To make that statement is to say the Liberty sailors who said they waved at the low flying Israeli planes and received a friendly acknowledgement is untrue. Your calling the jewish sailors who witnessed this liars?

In the late ‘90s a spook that flew an AWACS type plane above it all stated that he heard the Israeli pilot acknowledge to ground command that he was observing a US ship FLYING THE AMERICAN FLAG well before the attack began.

"Fog of war" is very real (even more so in 1967 than now), and your efforts to deny it serve only to highlight a dire lack of understanding in military affairs.

Oh really….I was on a submarine offshore of Gibraltor while the attack was happening, and was privy to the radio traffic real time. Nice try though.

There was a very informative thread on this on DU1. The Magistrate and Lithos (one of the FA/NS Moderators) both presented a compelling case in support of the position that it was merely a tragic accident, despite the best efforts of certain people who have axes to grind against Israel.

Yes, I was there for those discussions, and intelligent responses all. But that still didn’t make them right. I guess I had the advantage of living and experiencing the real time atmosphere of the military-political tensions of that time in that part of the world. If I didn’t maybe I would have agreed with Magistrate and Lithos.

Ya, I have an axe to grind against any foreign Navy that machine guns our lifeboats and sailors trying to get into them. I would hope you would too.

We need a congressional hearing to bring closure to this.

[rman]

129. fog of war my *s

7 hours of reconnaissance, in broad daylight, clear skies.

Is it a surprise Israel clears itself from "evil conspiracy"?
Next time if i'm suspect, may i investigate myself?

http://www.ussliberty.org

[Pallas180]

124. Billy Bunter-your grasp of history is more than a lil revisionist, friend

:thumbsdown:

[Julien Sorel]

133. Nice argument!

Somewhere. But you didn't bring it today. Maybe next time.

[Bozola]

5. Let's not forget that Iran has access to that Caspian Sea oil!

"I told them that Iran is threatening the stability not only of the region but of the entire world," Shalom said after a meeting with his counterparts from the 15-member EU.

Ha! Israel can go f*ck itself.

[Pallas180]

126. Ahem. Let's not forget Iran just found 2nd largest oil reserve in world.

And that's why your going to see georgie heading that way-
not for Israel. FOR OIL

[jos]

6. Now we know where US troops will next be engaged

First Iraq, now Iran. Israel speaks and the Likudnicks in the * administration follow.

[bahrbearian]

91. Well. we have to have and exit strategy.

[Maeve]

7. Okay, now where is the anti-Syria story of the day?

Bushco has to keep both countries wondering who is our next target, so there has to be a threat against Syria around, too!

It's just getting that predictable... :eyes:

[Tinoire]

8. 4 words

Free Mordechai Vanunu!





"I have sacrificed my freedom and risked my life in order to expose the danger of nuclear weapons which threatens this whole region." --- Mordechai Vanunu

---

Mordechai Vanunu worked at Dimona Nuclear Power Plant in Israel from 1976 to 1985 as a technician and learned about Israel's secret production of plutonium for nuclear weapons. In 1985 Vanunu believed it was his responsibility to inform the citizens of Israel as well as the rest of the world that nuclear weapons were being built and stored in Israel.

On October 5, 1986, the London Sunday Times newspaper headlines boldly announced, "Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal." The startling story, based on interviews with Vanunu and the 60 photographs he provided showing Israeli plutonium spheres used for triggers in nuclear warheads, revealed that Israel was fast developing nuclear weapons.

In detail, Vanunu's data showed that Israel possessed over 200 bombs with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads. The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs revealed a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing. Vanunu revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium.

Vanunu never saw the newspaper because five days prior to the release of the story he was lured to Rome and kidnapped there by Israeli secret agents.

http://www.peaceheroes.com/MordecaiVanunu/mvanunubio2.htm

In fall 1986 Mordechai Vanunu, an Israeli citizen who had been employed at the Dimona Nuclear Power Plant in the Negrev Desert, gave evidence to the London Sunday Times newspaper that Israel was developing nuclear weapons. He wanted to inform the world. It was an act of conscience. He was convicted of treason and sentenced to 18 years in Israeli prison. He spent the first eleven and a half years in solitary confinement. He remains in prison today in Israel, separated from other prisoners.

http://www.peaceheroes.com/MordecaiVanunu/mvanunu.htm

http://www.nonviolence.org/vanunu/

[BuddhaGirl]

9. wow....

I never knew about that...thanks for posting!!!

[Pallas180]

125. Ummmm. It's called TREASON. but so what. Everyone has known

long before the 80's that Israel had "the bomb".

What's your complaint? that they didnt use it once

and have never threatened to use it, unlike the Indians

the Pakistanis or North Korea....or the US

[Patriot_Spear]

11. Haven't enough people died for Israel already?

Our soldiers are dying daily in Iraq and now they want Iran.

[Darranar]

43. Iraq is not Israel's fault...

Iraq is the Bush administration's fault.

[Wonder]

67. There is that word fault again.

Some might argue that Bush operates to some degree upon a strategic plan put together with Israel's "security" in mind, at the almost complete disregard of the either the security or soverignty of Israel's neighbors.

Take Iran for instance, like Syria there is an allusion to the NPT. Iran is being a bit less diplomatic here (I have to check some wording to say with full certainty). Diplomacy seems a lost art here in the middle east. Why not all sign that dang treaty. From what I have gathered Iran is as concerned for an Israeli preemptive strike as well, and it seems with some good reason.

What I am trying to say, in terms of expansionism on the part of the US in the ME, Israel though in the background must also enter into the equation in terms of analysis.

After all haven not they just made almost a declaration that Iran now does not only threaten Israel, but the entire world. Are we ALL asleep?

[AntiCoup2K4]

79. More specifically, it's PNAC's fault

And PNAC is the fault of people like Perle and Wolfowitz, who are, in fact, double agents who are also involved with the Likud party of Israel. So while Israel as a nation or the Jewish people as a whole certainly are NOT to blame, Sharon and his henchmen definitely ARE.

[Patriot_Spear]

86. Really...? Can you explain this?

Her's an odd collection of coincidences for Israel not to be involved. By the way, I am not anti-semetic; but I'm not blind either.


---------------------------------------------------------

The spies who pushed for war

Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force

Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

-snip-

"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.

The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.

In 1996, he and Richard Perle - now an influential Pentagon figure - served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe."

[Pallas180]

121. Dont mistake people whose religion is fascism for Israelis/Jews.

:thumbsdown:

[dArKeR]

12. Put me in the column; Lost all respect for Israel!

Along with lost all respect for Repukelicans.

[Jim Sagle]

13. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[MostlyBlackCat2]

40. well, that's eloquent

and useful too. thanks for your contribution to the sh*tpile.

[Tinoire]

114. Thanks Jim!

Everyday, when I log onto DU, I perform the following search:
"This thread ain't nuthin' but shit."

The results invariablly, take me right in where all the important action is! Thanks for helping me not have to wade through a bunch of garbage to find the important threads!

But you throw me off when you use your other colorful phrase



Note to self- Buy Jim Sagle a dictionary for Christmas

[realityboy]

15. I agree potential Iranian nukes are a threat

Not as great a threat as are the real and existing ones in Israel, but a threat nonetheless. So the best way to address both these threats is a peace agreement which includes the disarmament of all WMDs in the region.

Israel need WMDs for deterrance you say? Well whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Iran needs em', Syria needs em', Iraq could have used with the ones they destroyed. Same as anything. We can try to come to an agreement and make things safer for everybody, or we can agree to disagree and live under the escalating threat of each other.

[Nihil]

16. Indirectly, yes, they are right.

> "I told them that Iran is threatening the stability not only of
> the region but of the entire world,"

Let's see ...

1) Iran gets nuclear programme.

2) Israel panics big time and puts pressure on USA to intervene.

3) USA threatens Iran.

4) Rest of world goes "Tut, tut, mustn't invade another country"

5) USA enrols spineless "allies" and threatens the rest.
("Back off! Support us or else! You're with us or with the terrorists!")

6) The world is now divided once more into "with us" or "against us".

... thus Iran can be said to threaten the entire world ...

(but only by using the 'logic' of a twisted, bullying, hypocritical sect
of warmongers spread between Israel and America)

Nihil

[revcarol]

17. Who "won" in the war on Iraq?

ISRAEL, ONLY. The whole region destabilized. Iraq's oil now available.

How many of our politicians are in thrall to AIPAC? I wonder about Dean. Going on an AIPAC paid for and sponsored trip. Flame me!!

Who wins by threatening and/or invading Iran? ISRAEL ONLY.

Oh, but let's get those inspectors in there so we have an excuse to invade because they don't find "something" within a short period of time!!And let's leave more debts for our children and grandchildren.And, of course, we gotta continue to provide military aid so they can oppress Palestinians while we knock off their enemies for them.

[Resistance]

19. You wonder about Howard Dean?

Dean's campaign fundraiser is former AIPAC head, Steve Grossman.

[rucky]

99. Maybe Grossman

was hired for his amazing fundraising ability with questionably popular campaigns. Work with me here....i really, really want to like Dean.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. File This Under "Well, Duh!"

Everyone's nuclear program threatens the entire world. That's what those weapons are for!

The whole thing is still based on M.A.D. Mess with us, we threaten existence! That's why NK wants them, that's why Iran wants them, and our little adventure into Iraq has proven their case. The only way you don't get whacked is to have nukes. Georgie and his boys have proven they need them.

But, any nuclear weapons program threatens the whole world. So the Israeli FM just won the Captain Obvious Award.
The Professor

[IndianaGreen]

22. Who cares?

We invaded Iraq, partly due to the lobbying by the Israel Lobby in this country, and look at what is happening to us there now. If Israel wants something done about Iran, they are on their own!

[Julien Sorel]

25. Don't say that.

It was telling Israel they were 'on their own' (the exact line, iirc, was 'Israel will not be alone unless Israel goes it alone') that Israel interpreted as U.S. permission to start the 1967 war. Nobody needs a repeat of that.

[bahrbearian]

92. Are you calling Lieberman a Lobbist?

[Jacobin]

23. Typical Repuke Projection Behaviour

It's ghastly and frightening just how cheaply Congress can be purchased.

Who shall we bomb for you today, kind campaign contributor?

[pdove]

24. Why should we die for Isreal?

We are paying them over 3Billions a year!
And we are dying in Iraq officially about 2 soldiers a day, why???!!

[BeHereNow]

26. Welcome to DU pdove...

Why you ask?
Because "GAWD" talks to Georgie and tells him what to do!
Spend ALL of our money on endless wars while our national
infrastructure crumbles.
This assures the global elite of a global slave labor work force
for all eternity.

Again, welcome to DU!!!!
BHN

[Resistance]

29. dont forget the murders of peace activists, pdove

The Israeli military murdering non-violent students with bulldozers and weapons we give them free (man it's a sick game - how do they get away with it?). Yet we still run right over to Iraq to secure the oil pipeline Israel wants to get flowing again.

Who's really in charge again?

[Pallas180]

123. Israel has been the US's pitbull in the Middle East. Don't forget when

there was a nuclear threat in the MIddle East awhile ago
Israeli jets bombed and destroyed the reactor.

So who was dying for who.

But don;t worry. Bushco will give Israel the finger as
soon as they dont need them anymore ;;;;when Bushco is
sure they are well established in Iraq.

OOOOOOOOh. well maybe bushco will need Israel for a long
time to come.....heh heh heh

[jos]

27. Well looky here

Right on cue! Bush blasts Iran (and Syria):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?z=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=26105&mesg_id=26105&page=

[Loonman]

28. Hey Silvan!

You send troops and go fight Iran.

[Herschel]

31. Israel is a faithful ally

Does anyone here really want Iran to have nuclear weapons? Please!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

35. Israel is a trusted ally

Don't be concerned with her nuclear weapons. Iran is a worry.

[Karenina]

41. USS Liberty???

.

[Wonder]

46. second that

:kick:

[Herschel]

54. Please!

That fable is old. Brought up again and again by thise desperate to criticize Israel.

[Submariner]

63. Please? How crass and unrespectable a comment!!!!

Read every word and link to this before insulting me/us again. I'm sick and tired of this 'please we didn't mean to crap'.

http://ussliberty.org/

[Herschel]

76. It was decades ago

There is much disagreement on what happened. Let it be.

[Forkboy]

88. I agree Herschel...now if people would just get over that Jesus stuff

I mean,that was THOUSANDS of years ago,and there is much disagreement on what happened,Let it be.

:eyes:

[northernsoul]

100. Submariner, remember why you shouldn't try to teach a pig to sing?

Because it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

I think you're butting up against a one-trick pony here.

[Wonder]

66. Oh Now Herschel

"desperate" to criticise Israel, is Israel above reproach?

[DeathvadeR]

62. Iran a worry???

Maybe they are bent out of shape for us funding and putting weapons in the hands of Iraq to kill them for years and years?
Or the fact that we shot down one of their airliners full of passengers? or maybe it was the coup that aborted the
country's democratic government and installed a
repressive monarchy.?

If I were Iran, I would be pissed off too!!!! Yet after all of that, I have never seen Iran Threaten the US. Never gotten any nasty letters saying I'm gonna kill you, You American signed, an Iranian.
I have seen the US media accuse them of wanting to murder my wife and dog and steal my bible though. and granted Iv'e seen a few US flag burnings on the TV, but like I havent witnessed a few here either.

Besides Isreal is a threat to Iran. Whats the difference???

[Pallas180]

127. CRAZY TALK. Iran never did anything to the US? How old are you?

ferchrist's sake.

US Embassy

Jimmy Carter

Hanged American Civilians

Showed pictures on tv

Hostages?

Held for 4 years?

do these words mean anything to you?

[Darranar]

44. Yes...

Put me down in that category.

[Julien Sorel]

34. What has this faithful ally ever done for us?

Suck up billions in aid? Suck up all the vetoes we give them in the UNSC, even though the vetoes hurt our moral standing around the world? Demand that we invade this or that nation? Give us false information in an attempt to start a war between us and one of the enemies Israel has earned? Anyone can see what Israel gets out of the relationship. What does the U.S. get out of it? 'Faithful' allies give something back. Parasites simply drain the host. There's a difference.

[Herschel]

36. Israel is a reliable and powerful ally

in a dangerous part of the world. Her democracy is a beacon to the region.

[Julien Sorel]

37. And again,

what has this 'beacon to the region' ever done for the U.S.? The last I saw, the entire region of the Middle East despised Israel and the colonialism it represents. That makes it a lighting rod, not a beacon.

For the billions we pump into the country, and all the other costs we bear for Israel, the answer should be clearcut, not some empty, and false, rhetoric about serving 'as a beacon in the region.'

[Herschel]

38. Israel is not colonial

It she were, she could command far more territory. Her presence provides a deterrent to countries that would be more aggressive in the region.

[Julien Sorel]

39. Of course Israel is colonial.

One look at a map of the settlements would tell anyone that.

But to bring this back to the subject you are now trying to duck, what's important is the way Israel's neighbors perceive it. You have made the claim that Israel is a 'beacon for the region,' but its neighbors see it as a colonial invader, and despise it. How does that make Israel a 'beacon'? And how does Israel being a 'beacon' (instead of the lightning rod it clearly is) provide adequate repayment for the huge outlays the U.S. gives it?

[Wonder]

47. I am not sure colonial is the correct terminology

they came behind the gun of colonialists who were occupying that land after beating back the turks. While some of Israeli's hard right wing Leaders have most certainly executed expansionist goals by way of deception, they are not actually colonialists.

I place the Livia Rokach study as the bases for my claim regarding some of the immorality present in Israels history of expansionism under the guise of defending their security. Livia Rokach is the Daughter of Israel Rokach who served in some capacity with Moshe Sharett BTW.

ISRAEL'S SACRED TERRORISM


by Livia Rokach, Third Edition

A study based on Moshe Sharett's Personal Diary, and other documents. Foreword by Noam Chomsky


http://abbc.com/historia/zionism/rokach.html

[Wonder]

48. Has it Occurred to Anyone that

Iran might feel Israel (and the US though I am focusing more on Israel at the moment) is a threat to their security.

here are some items I read recently an article from February 2002

It sounds like another game of chicken

snip
"If Israel attacks Iran, we will respond in a way no Israeli politician has ever dreamed about," warned Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani yesterday. Asked by al-Jazeera television if he was referring to nuclear weapons, Shamkhani gave a negative reply, but added that "time would tell" the nature of Iran's response.

Shamkhani said he wasn't worried about the possibility of an Israeli preemptive strike on the nuclear plant being built, with the aid of Russian experts, near the Persian Gulf port of Bushehr. Iranian media frequently warns that Israel would strike the plant in an attack similar to the 1981 air attack on the Iraqi nuclear reactor in Osirak.

"Iran is not a small country like Iraq. Iran has a powerful artillery, a disciplined army, and skilled air defenses," Shamkhani said.

Military sources in Israel said that Shamkhani's interview proved, once again, that Iran's long-range missiles and its development of nuclear capabilities were not for self-defense purposes, but rather targeted at Israel's destruction. "The Iranians are no longer hiding behind false statements but are now stating the truth openly," one senior official said, quoted in Maariv.'

end snip: http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0189.htm

opening paragraph states Iran's position: If Israel attacks we are ready seems the warning. It is clearly stated that Iran is prepared to retaliate in the event of an Israeli preemptive strike: "Iranian media frequently warns that Israel would strike the plant in an attack similar to the 1981 air attack on the Iraqi nuclear reactor in Osirak." By the time you get down to the last paragraph in the snip it switches completely around from the Israeli perspective: it is the Iranian stance interpreted as an aggressive threat to Israel. I find that a kind of a strange interpretation based on the opening paragraphs in the above article.

Yes, we know this antagonistic relationship goes back in time, which includes the fact that Iran will not acknowledge Israel's existence. Yet I can not help wondering when I go through the history, that is what I know of it so far, on one level does Israel acknowledge the surrounding Arabs right to exist (or should I say exist equally)? It sometimes seems difficult to say.

Now we move to July 8th Iran makes it clear it can retaliate with a tested Shahab-3 ballistic missile with Israel well within its range. It seems the international community want Iran to sign the NPT and open itself up for inspection, yet what is the incentive?

Remember in 2002 Iran seemed concerned for an israeli premptive strike which now a year later one could argue they have prepared themselves to defend themselves from. These are arch-rivals with a history of Hostility. Why would Iran agree to sign the NPT if Israel is to remain exempt from signing it? http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/jul/08/wnw_1-1.htm

Below is a little snatch from Israel Shahak's book Open Secret's... You can read the chapter of the book on Israel vs Iran if you like, but I will just pull the very last sentence... for the purposes of this thread, in particular, in speaking of a consideration of going to war with Iran (and this was written in 1993) the last sentence reads: "Their ranks may include some relatively less-opinionated individuals, who have survived the negative selection process which usually occurs within groups sharing such ideologically-tight imageries. But such individuals can be assumed to prefer to keep their moderation to themselves, while hoping that Israel can reap some fringe benefits from any western provocation against Iran, even if it results in a protracted and inconclusive war."

end small snip

here is the chapter from Shahak's book: http://www.geocities.com/roundtable_texts/israelvsiran.html

And here is a little background on Dr.Israel Shahak, he is a dissident I believe.

small snip
This Warsaw-born concentration camp survivor, who until this year was a professor of chemistry at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has lived in Israel since its creation in 1948. His broad powers of observation are matched only by his ability to convey, in vivid, carefully crafted phrases and anecdotes, arresting and unforgettable pictures of the Israel society in which he lives. His monthly "Translations from the Hebrew Press," painstakingly selected to convey the essence of issues that now perplex a deeply polarized Israeli public, provide the most illuminating reading on contemporary Israel available to non-Hebrew speakers.

In preparing these insights, and presenting them on lecture tours in Europe and the United States, Shahak violates a basic canon of the Jewish diaspora: Don't discuss Jewish problems outside the Jewish community.

This does not deter Shahak, a self-motivated, human rights-obsessed 56-year-old academic turned prophet. He acknowledges no contradictions among his obligations as a loyal citizen of Israel, a good Jew, and a believer in universal human values. He brushes aside suggestions that Israeli authorities may someday devise a way to muzzle his candor.

"Israel is still a democracy for Jews," he explains impatiently The problem is that the civil liberties Israel so zealously protects for its Jewish citizens are not transferable to others. In seeking to change that, Israel Shahak has no doubt that he is serving the best interests of Israel, and that his way offers Israel's best hope to assume its self-appointed role as "a light unto the nations."

end snip

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0689/8906019.htm

There is a definite correlation between Israel's security concerns and this US PNAC strategy. One does seem more and more to go hand and hand with one another, with two very forceful right wing factions at the helm Anglo-Saxon christians and the RW Likud. There is no getting around it anymore.

Of everything I placed here this sticks out in my mind

"while hoping that Israel can reap some fringe benefits from any western provocation against Iran, even if it results in a protracted and inconclusive war."

"Even if it results in a protracted and inconclusive war." It seems reasonable to me Israel could take that position. Haven't they been in an on and off state of war for the last half a century or so. One might say it is almost normal for them. Problem is it is not normal for America to be so over extended. At least not in a while we are certainly a bit older than the State of Israel as well.

Perhaps others more knowledgeable than I, from whichever perspective, can put it into more exact historic and critical perspective.

I pondered this myself and in relation to their infamous relationship with Israel, who's war on terrorism propaganda formula is one the U.S. is following.

I hope no one minds I placed these thoughts in another thread here, but I can not find it at the moment, however I did keep it for my own files as well because I feel there are a number of perspectives on certain aspects of history that do fall by the wayside.

At present Iran might be a threat to both Israel and the U.S. If they go nuke, yes that would be a world travesty. Yet there does exist much Israeli and US doctrine here that can tend to muddy up the waters.

[Julien Sorel]

51. There's another forum for stuff like this.

In for a penny, I suppose:

Colony: a a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state (M-W)

Golan, Gaza, and the West Bank settlements all qualify as colonies; Israel supports these colonies; therefore, well, the rest is obvious.

Of course, even excluding the settlements, one could argue that Israel is itself a colony: the majority of Israel's Jews came from Europe, and they maintain European traditions in a land that had its own traditions for millenia.


My personal favorite definition of 'colony' is this one,

a group of persons institutionalized away from others <a leper colony> <a penal colony>; also : the land or buildings occupied by such a group (M-W; emphasis in original).

The Israelis maintain themselves by choice as a virtual leper colony, alienating themselves at every turn from the peoples and the world around them, even going so far as restricting immigration to only Jews. One could say this is an Israeli version of the concept of 'splendid isolation,' to use a phrase coined to describe England. Of course, England was itself the greatest colonialist the world has known. Too bad it wasn't the last.

[Wonder]

56. yes I see the point you are making

I guess then perhaps it may well be debatable. For the most part, though I infer, we are on the same page. I have found on the various forums, semantics pose a great problem and tend to get in the way of making some of the more what, I believe to be the important points. Once an argument kicks in based on semantics, the discussion gets bogged down in quibbling over small words like are they colonialists or expansionists and occupiers. I try to side step these particular kinds of squabbles, as there are other important points to make like the ones I made in my other two posts here. It is just a choice I exercise in coming to the history more and more. I know many have a problem with the word colonial being applied to israel, so I have learned to adopt that terminology that has the least possibility of setting off all the understandable Israeli or Jewish defense mechanisms that are also intrinsic to this subject.

That said, I do believe Israel (as well as the Palestinians, and most certainly some of the Arab neighbors) have their own share of immorality to reconcile and admit (not that I am sure this will happen anytime soon as the U.S. enables Israel to continue to perpetuate certain myths). Terroristic Immorality that is that reared its head for a bit just after the white papers in 1939 (benny morris Israeli's Secret Wars), and throughout the early fifites through to the invasion of lebannon (Rokach, Neff, Bramford). I find there is a lack of admittance when it comes to those that are rightfully protective of Israel's right to exist, which also plays its part as obstacle to a peace process aimed at negotiating lasting peace, rather than the temporary solutions that are embodied in most of the Peace Plans including this one.

IMHO the Israeli doctrine that chomsky points out, and some of the Israeli revisionists address, has been misleading. The US IMHO has adopted this same misleading doctrine. This doctrine has enabled Israel to attack preemptively based upon overblown declarations and inaccurate claims and somewhat false claims of their enemies intentions to strike at Israel. The claim Israel now makes regarding Iran as "world threat" case in point.

As you can see by the materials placed in my post, "has it occurred to anyone," in fact, or so it seems Iran has also felt threatened by Israel in the past, with concern for an Israeli preemptive strike, as you can see if you read through I believe it was the israelinsider article from February 2002.

It seems in the case of the imperalists, as well as Israel the desire for national security is not taken much into consideration when it the security of an outsider. I am not convinced Iran aims to haphazardly begin lobbing nukes, but it seems the country felt the need to state it can protect itself in the event Israel (and the U.S.) might choice to preemptively strike. And from what I have gathered thus far Iran may not be only bluffing, and we are not altogether sure what other nuclear countries are in alliance with Iran, or should I say we are not altogether sure whether or not they might not get into the act in as Iranian allies in Iran's defense should the U.S./UK proceed with it
respective pax's.

[Herschel]

78. Disgusting

Your comparison of the Jewish state to a leper colony is repulsive. I now see you blinded by your emotions toward Israel. Oh, my.

[Pallas180]

128. Boy. Somebody has really been indoctrinated with heavy propaganda.

I'm surprised although I shouldn't be.

A lot of Alice In Wonderland stuf going on here. History turned
inside out...word twisting...and very good at it too.

Palestinian Liberation Front lives on DU.

[Herschel]

55. The problem is Israel's neighbors

Not little Israel. Look hard at Israel. Then her neighbors. Which is more as a country should be? I think you know the answer.

[Wonder]

57. If only all were neighbors though I must admit

I am not sure of the point you are making.

[Herschel]

58. The comment was made

Israel's neighbors disapprove of her. I would like all to consider who may be at fault for that.

[Wonder]

61. this word fault (or blame) is generally problematic

Based on some of the materials I have read, as well as the few that I have placed here within this thread, all bear some burden of guilt, blame, responsibility, and so forth, including the U.S. and the UK.

When considering the hostility of Israel's neighbors of course they have been too at fault, however, it seems Israel is most often left out of this equation as the doctrine or the propaganda upon which they have mounted much of their own aggression (which has most certainly included terrorism whatever the rationales are for it) tends to mislead us into believing that Israel has always and only defended itself. The implication being that Israel only retaliates and justifiably so.

Well it seems, as you can see if you are familiar with the materials I placed, this is not entirely true. For this reason I feel, IMHO, Israel also does bear some responsibility in terms of both what is very perojoratively termed "Arab Aggression" against Israel, as well as also having to admit that at times Israel has helped to instigate the also justifiable and understandable hostilities of their Arab neighbors, based on the various tactic they employed in their struggle for statehood, as well as the expansionism that characterized the 60's 70's and 80's. Various Israeli Leaders have in fact done this quite consciously.

We all to often forget that the aggressions that characterize some of the current problems we see today in the middle east have come about cummulatively, and may well date at least as far back as Sykes Picot, the Mamahon letter (is that his name) and the seemingly lost (because I have yet to find it) Anglo French declaration.

You know history its interpretation so often is dependent and can change with the varying viewpoints of all parties concerned. I feel in this attempt to negotiate a lasting peace it is imperative that ALL viewpoints are considered with equal objectivity. If that IS what the U.S. and Israel is intent on doing. Which is debatable in and of itself.

[Julien Sorel]

59. Poor little Israel.

What rotten luck. In all the world, the Zionists chose the one place to colonize where the people actually resisted. The natives living in South America didn't resist the Spaniards; the natives living in North America didn't resist the Europeans; the Africans didn't resist -- none of these peoples resisited. They all welcomed their conquerors with open arms. It must be anti-semitism that led the Arabs to resist the Jewish attempt to colonize them.

By the way, not one of Israel's neighbors is responsible for creating 4 million refugees for reasons that amount to racism. Israel is, though. That isn't my idea of 'how a country should be.'

Finally, besides the arrant the absurdity of your post, I will point out that you aren't even trying to defend your position any longer. You could have picked words at random out of a dictionary, strung them together and posted them, and they would have been as relevant to this topic as this pathetic post. Israel is a 'faithful ally,' but you can't adduce one single way in which the U.S. benefits from this 'alliance.' Back to the Funny Affairs forum with you.

[Herschel]

77. Terror is not justified resistance

The refugees would have a state now if offers of statehood had been accepted. Instead, they rot in refugee camps. For justifying America's support of Israel, what would you expect? Being a faithful friend and ally is not worthy of aid? What might be? What is America receiving from other countries it aids that Israel does not give?

[Lurking Dem]

80. Oh really?

By the way, not one of Israel's neighbors is responsible for creating 4 million refugees for reasons that amount to racism.

Tell that to all the Jews who were run out of/escaped with their lives from Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunis,e tc., etc.

Edited tag

[Julien Sorel]

83. Nonsense.

The Jews left those countries willingly, in the face of tremendous propaganda from Zionists in Israel, who told them how wonderful life in Israel would be, looking to increase their population. They did not become refugees, and they aren't refugees now. 'Escaped with their lives?' It's just propaganda. There was some violence against Jews in Arab countries that started after the Jews expelled 700,000 Arabs from Palestine, but it wasn't the kind of programatic extermination plan your little post implies, and it paled in comparison to the kind of violence the Jews used in cleansing Palestine of Arabs.

[Lurking Dem]

84. Does this man I can get my family's

house and land back? How about the family fortune they used up to buy their way out?

TAKE OFF THE BLINDERS.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

94. The Mind Boggles

The Jews left those countries willingly,

Your romanticization of past and present Arab oppression of Jews falls well short of the standards of reasonable persons.

There are no pure white hats or pure black hats here. Only varying shades of gray.

DTH

[Julien Sorel]

119. You preach about shades of grey,

but grind the same ax in post after post after post, while accusing other people of things you yourself are guilty of. 'Intellectual dishonesty?' See the other thread. 'Shades of grey'? I don't see any in your posts. You make a perfunctory attack on Sharon as a pretense of balance, and then go back to grinding the same ax. You reel off empty rhetoric about 'romanticism,' but fail to address the correctness or incorrectness of my statement; I disagree with someone's mis-statement of historical record (easily checked, by the way, although you won't find it on honestreporting.com) therefore I must be 'romanticizing past and present Arab oppression of Jews???????' It sounds great, but it isn't an argument -- it's a personal attack devoid of facts. Someone else who disagrees with you must be 'ignorant of military affairs.' But you have demonstrated the gall to toss out the ad-hominem accusation.

I suppose that, as bearing the burden of being a reasonable person who is knowledgeable about military affairs, you are given exemption from normal expectations, like not being a hypocrite. Obviously, you think so.

[Classical_Liberal]

105. It is a beacon like the Jim Crow South was a beacon of democracy

Nobody believes that the arabs would be more agressive to America without Israel's right wing government.

[DeathvadeR]

64. I Smell a troll......a troll!!!!!!!!!

must resist from touching alert button, Must let him speak......
slap...don't do it, don't do......

[Wonder]

65. what is a troll?

just curious.

[DeathvadeR]

74. Kinda like a keebler elf but.........

much uglier. hehehehe

Fee Fie Foe Fum, I smell the blood of REPUBLICAN.......

Well I'm no Moderator nor an admin but a troll would be a deliberate attempt by an individual(a charlatan) to steer the course of the dialoge away from the left ideas and principles. I think we all enjoy some flaming, but thats not really what this board is for. for the most part flame wars go back and forth and generally achieves nothing but confusion. This board was created to expose a voice, a voice for the left, a voice that isn't heard anywhere else, a voice that is stiffled by most major media. A voice that alot of people have but are afraid to move their lips amongst the loony flag wavers(not all of the flag wavers, but the ones that plastered there cars with as many as they could when Bush said worship me and follow me to our doom) anyways maybe an admin/Mod could correct me if I'm wrong.....

BTW. Enjoyed your 61 post, And most here are not forgetting that the US and the UK are excluded from the problems in the middle east. I for one wouldn't point my finger directly at Isreal and pull that blame game again. The US and UK are just as much to blame if not more so.

[Herschel]

75. Your comments are unwarranted

Many Democrats supported the war on Iraq and still do. The Democratic party is staunchly pro-Israel. They gave overwhelmong support to a glorious congressional resolution supporting Israel. I am not a Democrat just like you. But I am a Democrat.

[DeathvadeR]

81. I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the dem support....

of Isreal. You on the other make Isreal out to be some sort of Saint, some sort of role model, Some sort of superior nation. I for one see blood on the hands of your so called master race. I see hypocrits in power.

You come here with your star of David waving just like the repukes in this country with their American flags plastered on everything they own. Puting faith into a system of proven hate, yet they are unwilling to look withen itself and to aknowledge its very own greed and racism, unwilling to look into the mirror, Unwilling to examine the basic facts of truth. Instead they are blindly supportive of an institution, a nation , a fake democracy , that has not proven itself to be worthy of taking on such a responsiblity of controlling and mangeging itself and occupents let alone others or in this case an attampt to control the globe.

looking back at your posts I would say my posts are very warrented. But then thats just me? take it as you will.

[Herschel]

87. Israel is not a saint

Yet she is a role model, superior to her neighbors. I did not use the term master race and your use of it is offensive. My avatar represents Judaism. You compare it to flag waving Republicans. Again offensive to attack me for my religion. Israel is no fake democracy no matter how you want to believe it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

96. "So-called master race"..."You come here with your star of David"

My my my.

An honest question for you: Do you have issues with Jewish people?

BTW, I don't see anyone using the disgusting term "master race" except you. And I also don't see anything wrong with a Star of David, even though you certainly appear to.

DTH

[DeathvadeR]

118. Actually I Do!!!!!!

I got a problem with Jews , Christians, Muslims..The whole lot of em!!!
Your religions are causing conflicts around the globe. They are bringing us closer to our ultimate demise. They segregate man and incubate greed and racism. They were all created by man for man to control men, end of story. each one of them service only one creator, in which each of these have their own mutated version of. The Christians have 10 different versions of the bible for christ sake and they still can't understand it. Christianity uses Mcdonalds type-marketing to atract new customers, for each sacred day they celebrate, they have some bunny or a turkey or a funny old man passing out suprises in their biblemeals. The dead sea scrolls were inturpeted from ignorance and inhibility to understand theyself.
Don't you find it odd that all these religions are connected to in some way to or about the same areas and time?

So do I have a problem with judism and Isreal? I'd say ya. Do I have a problem with hershel? not really. I'm tired of all people drawing lines in the sand, I'm sick of National patriotism
, I'm sick of false gender superiority , I'm sick of ethnic favoritism , So did I offend Hershel? Ya. In just about the same way he offended me with his devotion to his master race.

[kwolf68]

33. ANY construction

of nuclear weapons should be considered "crimes against humanity."
That goes for every nation on the earth, including our own.

I realize the disarmament process is more complex than just everyone counting to 20 and destroying their weapons, but the human race can do it, I have faith. With 6 foot penises like Sharon and Bush in charge is sorely tested…HOWEVER, the goal should be explicit.

[CWebster]

52. Here we go again

Someone muzzle Israel.

[drool_n_yank]

53. opinion of a simple man

I'm no college boy, religious or political scholar just a blue collar guy and it may be obvious from my post, I see this as a bunch of religious fanatics , hard core Christian freaks in the USA dumping boat loads of tax payer money into Israel to try and forfill some kinda silly prophecy from a silly book . The greedy blind Israeli right wing religious fanatics are willing to accept the $$$$$$$$ even though the Christians prophecy eventaully means they will come claim thier investment. Any country would be a US ally for all that money by the way. You can buy friends , but true friends dont sink your ships. A old Jewish friend who was once a reasonable person started to change a few years ago, Bush got in office and my friend started working for Lockheed Martin around the same time. I just mention that because I think alot more Jews are aligning with the christian right and repukes in recent years, so my friend said to me recently after returning from temple
( the sea was parted for my people ....how awesome is that ) I had no words for this absurd statement , I just knew I had lost my friend to whatever illness these types suffer from, and I imagine a personal conflict will rise for Rumsfeld when the pharmaceutical industry lobbies the religous right and coins a term for this illness and patents a drug for it $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ . All I need is a time machine to go back and replace the bible and all the other nonsense scriptures with Death of a Salesman or Moby Dick or any other good fiction, Shakesphere while entertaining maybe a bit close to what they are actually following.

[Wonder]

68. Iran threatens the entire world

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement! and based on what I have read an Iranian Nuclear capacity is not really that much of a secret. However it seems that perhaps Israel's nuclear capacity is.

Iran is NOT trying to do EVERYTHING it can to have a nuclear war. That is almost a lie. We already lived this beat during the 6 day war. no?
This claim by Israel about Iran is just a replay of those claims made about Egypt. History seems to have told a different story.

What I get is that Israel is helping the US justify yet another preemptive strike. This time however, Iran may well be packing much more than Saddam, as suggested by various sources, Iran has made sure they could defend themselves in the event Israel chose to strike them first, very much like Nassar wanted to be prepared in the event Israel decided to exert some aggression toward Egypt back in the fifties.

One would assume that if these guys really want to play chicken, in theory, they can go ahead and strike Iran and it could be that Pakistan could strike the US. I am under the impression they have a formidable airforce. That theory is based in my guess that Pakistan could be in alliance with Iran, as could N.Korea and then there is also Russia to consider, who has been helpful in Iranian weapons programs, from what I have gathered.

I don't know what these cowboys think they are doing but they are playing way to close to the deep end for my tastes. But if the US really wants to planetary dominiance if they attack Iran they well might need staging in two other areas. Makes no sense to me why they would push this any further. It has gone way too far as it is.

[ze_dscherman]

70. Israel Eyes Air Strikes at Iran's Nuclear Arsenal (reported 9-11)

I've posted this severeal times, so here it is again:

But Sharon's aides insist that the evidence of Russian assistance to Iran's nuclear missile program is undeniable, evoking memories of a similar situation 20 years ago when France denied it was helping Iraq's Saddam Hussein build an atomic bomb.

According to Dan, intelligence reports indicate that Iran, which already has the ability to build long-range missiles, could have nuclear warheads in three to five years and threaten the entire Mideast.

SNIP

NewsMax also reported that Israel may make such a strike at the same time it hits Iranian targets in Lebanon. Dan reported that Iran has actually put members of its Revolutionary Guard in control of missile units that have a long range and can hit Tel Aviv, and that Iran and Syria are coordinating military moves to "open a second front" against Israel if the Palestinian crisis blows.

Recent history has shown that Israel does not sit idly by in the face of such imminent threats. An air strike against the Iranian missile site can thus be expected at any time. As we reported then, when Israel strikes against these missiles, expect a broader sweep, which may include air strikes on nuclear facilities in Iran.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/10/114100.shtml

I know it's NewsMax, but - who fed them this info before 911?

[Wonder]

71. yes it is newsmax

but this kind of is along the lines I am thinking based on other sources. I don't read Newsmax. This must have been what Iran was alluding to in that israelinsider article that I placed suggesting Iran's concern for a preemptive strike by Israel, which has prompted them along in their nuclear endeavors. There warning to Israel was you hit us you will be surprise how hard we will hit you. i paraphrase. The article that I reference is in this thread.

There are sources to back up these allegations that russia is and has been assisting Iran with its nuclear missile program, though putin denies it. I do not think that the missle Iran just tested is nuclear.

As far as Iran helping Saddam to build the atom bomb? This I am not inclined to believe because back before 1999, Iran's potential for building it's own nuclear bomb was enough of concern that studies were done to ascertain how far along they were. My guess is that by 2001 the higher ups were already well into moving into place on the strike on Iraq so the implication regarding an Iranian Iraqi tie in strikes me a bit more like disinformtion.

Based on the projects I read it was conceivable that Iran could have the HBomb by 2005-07. With Russias help in the last several years it could be that they have it already, but I am speculating. Even if they do it does not necessarily mean they intend to use it out of the blue.
The thing that irks me is how out of hand this has been allowed to get to some degree because Israel has never been really called to task for some of its own trumping up of "the Arab threat" over all these years. Israel should never have been allowed to strike Egypt they way they did, based solely on their claim Egypt was going to strike them. There is documenation to suggest though Egypt would strike back, its threat was exaggerated. Israel had played dirty pool with Egypt going back to the Lavon Affair. Well most know the history. Diplomacy was rarely ever pursued sincerely as an option.


If iran is struck by the US or Israel who knows. In theory if Iran does have the HBomb and a Israeli preemptive is in the cards. Their preemptive would have to be strong enough to destroy Iran's nuclear capability completely. That might suggest they would have to go nucle to do it swiftly. That is bad news. If they did that we are in big trouble. I say everyone sit down and sign that fucking treaty.

[Julien Sorel]

72. The article talks about Russian assistance

to Iran's nuclear weapons program; not Iran's nuclear power plant program. I haven't seen any credible evidence that Russia has had anything to do with any Iranian nuclear weapons program.

I will say that I can show you paranoid theories about Iran and nuclear weapons going back several years. The J Post in particular has a habit of posting bogeyman stories about Iraq, Iran, and Syria, in collusion whenever they can, despite the divisions between them. If you throw enough mud against a fence, some of it will stick, but most of it will fly right through. For example, in 1998 the J Post printed an article claiming Iran had bought nuclear weapons from one of the former provinces of the Soviet Union; of course, the story turned out to be BS. It's just business as usual for 'little Israel' as someone put it. The more menacing they make the countries around them look, the more they justify their own behavior.

[Wonder]

73. billybunter

I have read a number of articles from varying sources to suggest russia has been involved in helping Iran. Now whether they are credit, I have to find them again, I still have them.

my point is even if that is so, it doesn't necessarily follow that the sole intention for the build up is to first strike anyone, not even Israel. I believe Israel's tactics (some of them) have been to exaggerate the threat to justify their expansion, which is what I suspect is being done here now in completely collusion with the US/UK.

This tactic has been tried before by Israel as addressed by many an author including Israeli authors like the two I placed within this thread already.

I will see if tomorrow I can find those articles for you about russia.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonder]

85. Hey thanks for the Article

Based on all the points I addressed throughout this thread, I feel Israel does pose a threat not to the world but in the ME, this is after mulling over much reading and observing the doctrine verses the history itself and the conflicting view points. The Israeli strategies are fairly obvious as is their justification.

If they do push for a preemptive strike this will cause many problems that true diplomacy could address with a much better outcome. Again we have the wish for power over, or dominance vs. reconciliation. Nothing I have seen thus far suggest true reconciliation is on the overall agenda. And US is now almost exactly mirroring Israeli military tactic which has hardly served to solve the hard issues within the Palestinian conflict. The US all these years and since the 60's at least has never really held any reign on Israel. I guess in some sense Israel at that time fought proxy in a bigger game.

Anyway, without reading the article yet that's what came to mind. Once I read it If the thread is still active I'll come back and talk to you if I have other comments. In the meantime I wish everyone would begin to uncock these big guns. Of course I have no hope that will happen, but I can express the wish anyway.

[Guaranteed]

90. ENOUGH!!!!

Goddamnit I am SICK of this GARBAGE! Fucking WARMONGERS just SHUT THE HELL UP!!

[fshrink]

95. Hey! With the PNAC at the commands sky's the limit.

No need to bother with diplomatic innuendos any more!

[chomskyite2]

97. NUKES ARE DANGEROUS IN ANYONES HANDS...

classic.

[ReadTomPaine]

107. Look for a repeat of 1981...

I think Israel is prepping Europe for a repeat of the 1981 bombing of Iraq’s nuke plant, only this time the target will be any verified nuke facilities in Iran. Setting judgments regarding the wisdom or foolishness of this aside, does anyone else see this as a likely possibility?

[0rganism]

109. Why should Israel do it, when W is just itching to do it for them?

Israel is leveraging declared US policies to launch a cruise missile strike on Iran. No need for Israel to do a damn thing; just call in the regional pit bull.

[ReadTomPaine]

110. Because the US has its hands full...

... and Israel has a small reserve of goodwill from the recent talks with the new Palestinian PM they can expend in an action they have already shown a propensity to commit. For the US administration, it’s one less ‘unilateral’ move and will have less effect on the brewing elections, and for Israel it’s simply SOP and will surprise no one. One thing is certain however, the current Likud government won’t let Iran have an operational nuclear arsenal, and in the end they won’t care how anyone feels about it.

[Wonder]

113. Whomever does it

a preemptive strike on Iran's nuke facilities does seem to be looming. Iraq always seemed just the necessary warmup for Iran.

Iran does not look to be playing games either. It is clear they see what's being cooked up.

In order to do it and guarantee there is no retailiation they have to hit them all at the same time it seems to me. Iran is not sitting back on this, and from the looks of it they can retailate.

It would surprise me if Iran takes it like Iraq... What we got here is a powder keg. Between just a intuition and some relevant reading materal, even if they put all of Iran's capacity out before they can mobilizem a retailation could come from an Iranian ally. I have read, but I am too young to remember the US on the verge of Nuclear war, so I have no empirical sense of the likelihood of a hit on the US under these circumstances.

If anyone could put those thoughts in a better perspective...that would be good. I mean the likelihood of a preemptive on Iran causing a retaliation from what could be an Iranian ally, or is Iran standing Alone. If not, it would seem a strike back on Israel would be more likely than one the US. US National security seems compromised or is this just too much worry?

[ReadTomPaine]

116. "Powder Keg" fits nicely..

The key element is whether or not Iran actually *has* a nuclear deterrent in place. Most sources claim they do not, and I generally lean towards that conclusion myself. The only credible military deterrent to the air strike then would be Pakistan, and I don’t see them threatening Israel either. Iran’s allowance of inspectors is part of the plan to forestall any actions against them while they try to proceed with their own programs in what they hope will be a less observed manner. If, however they already have some sort of purchased nuke or a primitive missile, the whole situation could start to resemble North Korea. As a consequence, I expect Israel to act the moment they can verify an attack won’t cost them so dearly. Iran could then attempt to strike back, but with conventional forces it seems unlikely they will make much impact on Israel. Very messy situation, and frankly it has come to a premature head largely because of the instability brought to the region by our invasion and occupation of Iraq. The “Axis of Evil” is obsessed about securing sovereignty now, and it’s not surprising they feel that way or are taking the measures they are. Reap the whirlwind, as they say.

[Wonder]

117. From your assessment

you feel Iran is just bluffing? I came across this a while back.

http://www.csis.org/stratassessment/reports/irantrends.html.

You have to download the report. Mostly it is graphs. In one section they run a projection on when Iran might have the H Bomb. You will see if you look at it originally their projects were hasty. The final conclusion was that might be between hmmmm.... my memory.... I think it is 2003-2007, but you will see for yourself if you download the study. If you do I would be interested in your point of view.

I thought pakistan could be one to retaliate myself, not necessarily in the ME but American, I mentioned that in this thread. I also find I wonder about N.Korea as well.

I guess what I am thinking is that a strike on Iran could really start a world war.

[ReadTomPaine]

120. Maybe not a world war, but close.

Unfortunately, the PDF is no longer available (I was unable to download the report), but I am familiar with this information and I agree with the general assessment of Iran having deployable nuclear weapons somewhere in the middle of the decade. If I were to make the call myself just now, I’d say they don’t have anything ready to use, thus the recent reliance on diplomacy to avert or disrupt a program they are rushing to completion. Your comments on Pakistan are well taken, but as long as Musharraf is in charge and the foreign aid keeps flowing in that direction I don’t think they will rock the boat militarily. However should he be deposed, a very real possibility, then all bets are off. The most concrete threat has been stated right out in the open- North Korea’s intention to sell its nuclear and missile technology to the highest bidder. This is why the administration has promoted the interdiction of NK ships. It will, however, be extremely difficult to stop any such transference as the amount of material and technology Iran would require at this point to field a workable nuke would fit in the back of a truck. This is assuming, of course, that such a transference hasn’t already occurred. NK has a long track record of announcing these matters after the fact. In this light, the failure of the current administration’s foreign policy is quite vivid. Of the three members of the ‘Axis of Evil’ they have targeted, the administration went for the weakest and most conventional power first, due to reasons of ideology, expedience and possibly greed. This has allowed the remaining powers to consolidate their forces, examine our tactics in detail and perhaps start a new arms race. Simultaneously, we are overstretching our military and financial resources while dividing our country and rupturing our foreign ties. This is not a recipe for success assuming that Iran and North Korea are also on the Bush agenda. While I don’t think a world war could result from this, we might just see the first usage of sizable nukes since WWII if North Korea or Iran’s hand is called at the wrong time or in the wrong way. That usage could very well be inside the Continental United States. This is precisely why inspection teams and skilled diplomacy are so key in this situation and so many senior intelligence analysts are speaking their mind or resigning in protest. Let’s hope that sane minds prevail.

[0rganism]

108. Israel proposes exit strategy for troops in Iraq: through Iran and Syria

Is this like the don calling for a hit, or what?

Can't have those nasty Iranians joining our happy little nuclear mafia, oh goodness no, wouldn't be proper.

[Nottingham]

111. Israel already Bombed Iraq's reactors or was it Irans! Do it again !

They can just do it again! Why should they wait! Its their country!
:bounce:

[farmboxer]

122. Iran Has "Oil"!

Cheney wants more oil and so does Bush and his pals!

[Pallas180]

131. BINGO. This is about oil & Iran has just discovered 2nd largest reserve

in the world under their soil. Waaall. Israel has never
gone after oil. After all they are 5 million people surrounded
by 1.2 billion Arabs. Those nasty Israelis bothering those
nice peaceful Arabs as Billy Bunter has explained to us.

And Iran never did anything to any American. Just burned
a couple of American flags that's all. Right.

And Israel started the 67 war and all the other wars.

And the Zionists took over all the ARab territories.

Hullo? Wasn't there some crazy Englishman who carved up Arabia
and plopped the survivors of the concentration camps smack dab
in the middle of those friendly Arabs?

And how dare Israel ever expect to keep land that they won in victory
in a war. America gave back their land to the Indians. And the
Spanish gave back their conquered lands to the natives they conquered.
And Israel absolutely has to do the same as every other country has done. Give back the land they won. Ahem.

I've had enough of the absolute bullshit I've read in this thread.

The US has supported Israel not cause any AMerican president ever loved the people of Israel. Get real. They supported the little country because it was their only foothold in the region. Until now.

And you know why we went into Iraq? not for the glory of Israel. but for the glory of Carlyle, Exxon, Unocal. NOt for liberation. Not for "freedom". for OIL OIL OIL. Get it through your heads.

And you know why the PNAC crowd will go into Iran? For their find of the second largest oil reserves in the world, just found in Iran.

And you know why they'll go into SAudi Arabia. Even though Saudi has
asked the Americans to leave, we'll go on to protect them AND THE OIL
from the takeover of the fields by the ISLAMISTS - al Queda - fundamentalists. etc etc etc .

And watch out Venezuela...cause the US PNAC is coming to save you from
the terrorists too.

Now would you like to get back on track and stop buying into the troll's anti-Israel pro Palestinian anti-semitic - anti american bullshit?


And by the way. North Korea has been an ally of Iran for several years. And it's likely Iran already has the bomb.

Now if you want to blame someone for starting the end of the world via
nuclear holocaust, look at goerge w bushista and neo con pnac friends.

You people obviously aren't old enough to remember much at all.

You don't remember the nuclear scare with Cuba. Tsk. you really missed
something.

The World held its breath ......and cried. Frozen in place in their kitchens, their cars, we held our breath and waited. We were within minutes of annihilation.

Congratulations on supporting governments that will put us in that
position again. Only this time there wont be only holding breath.
A lot of you are going to be dead.

Fools. Blame it on Israel. Right. They've had the bomb for decades.
|They have never threatened to use it. And they have never used it.

Now boys and girls, can you name a country which has? and which continues to poison the earth with uranium shells?

Wake up. Jerks.

[rman]

130. They got a lot a archfoes don't they

Of course it's all someone else's fault.

[VolcanoJen]

132. No Longer LBN... locking

This story was first reported on Monday of this week, and as such this discussion is no longer relevant to the Latest Breaking News Forum.

Please continue your discussion of this topic in the existing thread on this topic in the Foreign Affairs Forum, which can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=1893&mesg_id=1893&listing_type=search

Thanks,
VolcanoJen
DU Moderator