Lieberman Warns of Global Religious War

[arcos]

Lieberman Warns of Global Religious War

WASHINGTON - Iraq (news - web sites) is the testing ground that will determine whether fanatical Muslims go to war against other religions, including moderate Islam, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman (news - web sites) said Sunday.

"There is no substitute for victory here. We must pull together across party lines, here in the United States, and we have to pull together with the rest of the world in a way that President Bush (news - web sites) has not been able to accomplish yet," Lieberman said.

<snip>

The world must be convinced, the Connecticut senator said, "that victory in the conflict we're in in Iraq now matters as much to them in the civilized world as it does to the United States of America."


Appearing on "Fox News Sunday," he said: "This is a battle to stop al-Qaida, Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and every other enemy of freedom and modernity from turning the beginning of the 21st century into what is truly unbelievable, which would be a global religious war."

<snip>

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=4&u=/ap/20031130/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_lieberman

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Lieberman is brainwashed by "The Clash of Civilizations"

Thankyou Samuel Huntington for using this as a pretext for the oil conglomerates to gain control through fear and ignorance.

RIP Edward Said.

[bread_and_roses]

7. You said it

that about sums it up.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. How could he write this without saying OIL once?

http://www.lander.edu/atannenbaum/Tannenbaum%20courses%20folder/POLS%20103%20World%20Politics/103_huntington_clash_of_civilizations_full_text.htm#I.%20THE%20NEXT%20PATTERN%20OF%20CONFLICT

[Voltaire99]

63. Nicely put. (n/t)

[matcom]

2. AAHHHHH so Holy Joe FINALLY says it!

been waitin' for this one too.

A HOLY WAR JOE???

its one "you" are likely to lose friend.

that's it folks. the fucking GLOVES are OFF!

[joeybee12]

3. Well, Holy Joe, you worthless piece of s**t, you helped start the Holy War

now you try and end it.

God, he is filth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jiacinto]

17. Do you feel the same about Gephardt, Edwards, and Kerry

And I wonder why you must always make refence to his religion.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. I do...and I'm not making ANY reference to religion...

The problem, as I see it, is that Jumping Joe has ALWAYS referenced his religion in regards to any subject. Why then, should his religion be excluded when discussing Joe?

[Military Brat]

4. Getting oil was the prize, liberating Iraqis was the pretext

And religious war is the consequence, just what the fundies always wanted. Rapture is so close, why, they can almost feel themselves becoming transparent ...

[truthisfreedom]

66. nope. liberating Iraqis was backtrack... stopping WMDs was pretext.

but there were none. so they shifted feet and hemmed and hawed and went for liberty as the main focus, and then starting saying that terrah-ists are anti-freedom. which is just plain out-of-focus.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Ahhh, Holy Joe's Holy War

Finally Holy Joe has revealed himself as the Talibanish PNACer that some of us always suspected him of being.

This is one war that I choose not to fight!

[KittyWampus]

13. I Am Afraid You Are Right

:(

[drewb]

45. I ain't a marchin anymore....

It's always the old to lead us to the war
Always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me, is it worth it all

-Phil Ochs


http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=PdaR6vPnnPQ%3D

[lumpy]

49. I simply can't support this war

against a nation that did not harm us in any manner. It is clear that the US was in no imminent danger proving to world that this US aggression was based on deceptive lies. I find it hard to fault Iraqis for fighting back against the invaders. I don't believe in this type of aggression and invasion. Whether it be by a Hitler or a Bush. US foreign policy has sunk to a new low, certainly even lower than Reagan's assault on the island of Grenada or the bombing of Libya on the weakest of pretext.

[neebob]

6. Holy crap! nt

[Melsky]

8. Joe, please drop out now

the people who want all war, all the time are going to vote for bush, period.

[pasadenaboy]

9. Hey Dumbass (Feebleman)

Hussein was not religious, you idiot.

He was a military dictator. Your stupid war turned him into an ally of religious fundementalists.

[Carolina]

44. excellent point

and oh so true.

[Jacobin]

47. This cannot be repeated too often

It is why the geopolitical realists of yore installed Saddam in the first place.

[robbedvoter]

10. Joe hearts Faux. See this piece by Milbank

Debating Democrats Outfoxed

Presidential candidate Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) has always been a
fighter for the oppressed and disadvantaged -- in this case, himself.
"It was not right to deny me an opportunity to be part of today's
debate," he said in a statement released before Monday's Democratic
debate in Iowa.

snip

Lieberman, like so many before him, took his complaints about the
Democrats to Fox News. "I always thought the Democratic Party was the
party of inclusion, but they excluded me tonight," he said on Hannity &
Colmes. "But I got the last word because I'm on your much more highly
viewed show."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22009-2003Nov29.html

[joanski01]

11. I want Joe Lieberman

to just shut up. Shut up, Joe. Shut up. Joe says we must pull across party lines. He's nuts. Get out of the race. You are a loser.

[Guaranteed]

12. This sounds like a call for Crusade, to me.

You don't call out other religions, Joe. You're going to get a LOT of people killed.

I don't know what he's so worried about, though. If it gets escalated to WWIII, we get to use our "trump cards." I get the feeling that's what he wants. Someone needs to tell him to shut the hell up.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

14. I saw that interview on Fox.

My jaw dropped. I was speechless. People like to call Lieberman "Bush-lite", but I thought it was just an exaggeration. Not so. The man is everything a Republican is, if not more so. He speaks as if everything he knows about the world comes directly from Fox News. This is scary. Why's he even a Dem? If Joe takes every piece of Pentagon propaganda as the complete truth, why doesn't he join up with Zell Miller to become a Republican? These guys are more anti-Muslim, "KILL THE EVIL TERRORIST ISLAMICIST"-like than most Republicans are.

[HawkerHurricane]

19. He won't run as a Republican because

The Republicans won't let him run for President, select him for vice President, nor put him in any sort of leadership position in the Senate.
The Republicans, as the party of inclusion, would make Joe Lieberman thier token... an idea that he can't stand, apparently, so he stays with a (D) next to his name and says bad things about his fellow Democrats for not letting him make the party into 'Republicans, part II'.

[DRoseDARs]

15. Bloody Hell, people, calm down...

...that's not what he said nor calling for. He said there's a risk it could turn into a "global religious war," 'holy war' if you must call it that. He postulates that if the West is seen as failing in Iraq, then fundaMENTAList Islam, fanatical Islam, crazy-as-sh*t Islam will decide to go all out against all the other -isms, including Muslims that don't toe the murderous psycho line, not just a Jews-Christians vs. Islam.

'Asked whether such a global religious war would be "Islam versus Christianity and Judaism combined," Lieberman, an orthodox Jew, said, "Islam against — fanatical Islam against Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, every other `ism,' every other religion, including every part of Islam that doesn't agree with these fanatics."'

This isn't a "holy war." Holy Joe is saying the West needs to suceed in Iraq to prevent it from becoming such. You don't have to like or even tolerate Lieberman, but at least keep his words in context. Otherwise, you're just going to make O'Lielly blush with pride for your budding spinning abilities.

[IndianaGreen]

16. The problem was created by Bush's invasion of Iraq in the FIRST place!

I won't support the war in Iraq no matter how hysterical our political leaders get, from either party.

This war must end. The occupation must end. America was WRONG!

[DRoseDARs]

18. The problem existed LONG before Bush's war...

...He just did his part to add fuel to the fire.

[liberalhistorian]

20. BULLSHIT!

He meant exactly what he said, and that's what he's really believed all along. He's always been ultra-religious, which is fine until he shoves it down everyone else's throat demanding that we all do the same. He's nothing but a POS Bush repuke in disguise, and he should just switch parties and make it official.

[Tinoire]

28. Bull Lieberman knew EXACTLY what he helped start

as did EVERY neo-con out there!

This war of religions/civilizations has been decades in the making and anybody who kept abreast of all the machinations taking place over the last few years saw this clearly unfolding.

You don't think 50 million Christian fundies in this country were just miraculously "born-again" for no political reasons do you?

I'll cede the point that he isn't grabbing a conch shell calling for it, oh no, it's been much more subtle than that and cleverly orchestrated.

[peterh]

29. You need to step back and take another look….

When we attacked Afghanistan, we attacked a very radical group (granted Islamic) that was either harboring and/or was directly connected to 9/11. Most countries backed us on that and the religious factor, while certainly on display domestically, was, I feel, minimal outside.

Enter the illegal invasion and occupation of an Islamic country with a corresponding uptick in vile religious rhetoric domestically and whatta ya know, a rather shape increase in religious awareness world wide. Holy Joe helped stroke that awareness with his own votes and unabashed rhetoric in support of the war. The fact that he is an Orthodox Jew (I don’t mean that derogatorily, only illustratively) does not help the situation when you bring up “Holy War”, in whatever context, when defending your actions on the indefensible.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. Jumping Joe is a NeoCon when it comes to supporting PNAC, pure and simple.

[Classical_Liberal]

61. Iraq made the problem worse!

Lieberman also ignores that the christian, jewish and hindu fundies are spoiling every bit as much as the Islamic ones.

[loudnclear]

21. Anybody but Lieberman...that's what I am beginning to feel

eom

[IndianaGreen]

22. Will any of the other Democratic candidates denounce Lieberman?

Will any of them call for an end to war and attack those that cast the criminal occupation of Iraq as some sort of Holy Crusade to save Western Civilization?

[foo_bar]

41. ABL

Does that include Bush?

[MrPrax]

23. What a lunatic!!

It takes two for a religious war...I know of a few criminals on their side--which side are we again?

[Aidoneus]

25. Joe's making this difficult for me

As yet I've resisted the urge to even give a damn about him, much less buy into the stigma that seems to haunt him (I just find him not worth the thought, hardly some roving menace).. but he's making it hard with things that appear like this. A Zionist demanding victory in a global war against Muslims--how else could he be taken? Is he trying to appeal to Bush's most racist and fascist base of support? Slip of the tongue? Idle chatter? Stupid but typical political bombast?

That new sort of thing aside, his schilling for the very same tendencies, and encouraging support for them, that Team Bush represents are why I have found him or some of his peers not worth a damn. That "(D)" next to the name doesn't always signify a decent sort of opposition, as he here calls for "bipartisan" (codeword for Republican dictatorship) support of Bush's policies, but that somebody could do the same thing better--not that he's wrong, just not right enough. He's not alone in that sort of thing, or even usually noteworthy, but the question is just reduced to an argument without a resisting oppositional view--the argument is simply who can do the same thing "better" (or encouraging less resistance--a "liberal Democratic Party" President would not meet as much domestic resistance to these criminal policies as a open/honest rightwing puppet like Bush), and at best a pointless oneuppish game where nobody even veers into heading towards a decent construct.

[cap]

26. Joe does have a good point...

but not the way Bush would have it. We must build a multi-religious coalition against Al-Qaeda. We must unite across religious lines or else we will have a Global Religious War. This means a radical change in foreign policy.

[Tinoire]

33. Al-Queda

Al-Queda is a figment of Carlyle's imagination.

As a practicing Catholic let me be very clear that I will NOT be uniting along religious lines with anyone- especially Fundamentalist Christians who have twisted every other verse in the Bible to rationalize the blood lust we see taking place in the Middle East right now.

It is this very call to "unite across religious lines" that will aggravate the Global Religious War that has already begun.


We do need, you are right, a radical change in foreign policy but based on your comment about uniting along religious lines, I am not certain our conclusions are the same.

[Classical_Liberal]

62. Then why is he making IRaq central to the effort

Iraq makes the problem demonstrably worse! Also fundies in Islam aren't the only religious extremist that need to be disempowered. Jewish, Christian and Hindu extremists are also a problem.

[goforit]

27. Put a cork in it you phoney prophet!!!!.....War Monger!!!!

I am so glad Gore never won just because of this
slime of a snake that sat in his camp!

I never would have known how much of a flaming Zionist
Lieberman was.

The spirit of the Torah must be truely disgusted with him.

[AndyTiedye]

59. Gore Would Have Been JFK'ed

Does anybody think PNAC would have any qualms about such a thing?

Gore realized this some time after the convention, or it was explained to him. Why else did he run such a remarkably lackluster campain.

[ninkasi]

30. There is nothing "holy" about this war.

While it's true that the rightwingers want to put it in those terms, the war in Iraq is both illegal and immoral. Amazing that people like him can slam militant Moslems, and give militant Christians and Jews a pass.

For this country to become a theocracy would be the most frightening thing I can think of. Bloodshed in the name of any religon is not holy.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. Hey listen

some misguided, religious people actually WANT this. It is the ARMAGEDDON--don't you realize that? What is the matter with you?

They will be flying up into the sky to be with the god and who knows what else for eternity. NO one has ever said what they will do to amuse themselves, except maybe gaze down upon others who are suffering in their imaginary lake of fire--and that amusement can include their own sons and daughters. Theh will be up there in a heaven watching their own sons and daughters being burnt to a crisp, and will actually be enjoying it, because in heaven, everything is just honkey dory.== and others will be killed by the millions because they did not have the right god. This anticipation amongst the prophecy nuts, is causing a great deal of joyful celebration. Jews like Lieberman, will be clomped, burned, destroyed, to death for not believing in the god Jesus. Yet we have the Jews supporting Bushy and the Christians who believe this is what will happen. :shrug: Beats me.

[Tinoire]

34. Not all Jews and not all Christians

I don't want to get into this discussion now because the entire thread will either get locked or scuttled off to I/P where it will be smothered by special rules but it's not all Jews and it's definitely not all Christians. Mainstream Christians do not believe in the Rapture and all that garbage and if they have bent over backwards to condemn the happenings in the Middle East, it's because, unlike the Fundies, we do not believe that anyone is going to be magically whisked off to Jesus to avoid the repercussions of some of the things they're pushing for in the Middle East.

There's been a split in the Christian Church for decades now; you have this "new" group actively working to cause/support Armageddon and another actively working to prevent it.

You don't sound religious, which is cool, but I am and I assure you that the Fundy picture you just painted is not only not biblically supported but it's totally rejected by your major Christian religions. It was totally fabricated and pushed in preparation for the very times we live in now.

Peace

[Malva Zebrina]

37. I know that, and do understand your defensiveness

I have been following this for at least ten years and I am not a believer, but an atheist. I find this interesting and fascinating as well as totally disgusting.

The ones who have the current political influence do definately believe that, however. And that is too bad.

They and the born again Bush, have the powerful, bully pulpit and no other Christian contained in the mainstream religions, can compete with that presidential, god speaks to him, bully, presidential power.

They are, really , from all I have read, in joyful and total ecstacy over it and are willing to do anything to hurry it along-even it it means advocating the killing of millions of people-for instance, the prophecy books of Tim and Beverly La Haye and others such as Jack VAn Impe, who ride the prophecy train.

People , in large numbers, do believe it-it is not incredible--they are willing to believe anything if the god is invoked-and these are the born agains and the literalist Christians, and Bush is, by all accounts, a born again.

Unfortunately, we have allowed a president who is a religious, fanatic nut to gain power without any significant challenge to this religious absurdity.

[Tinoire]

43. Yes totally

and I did not mean to come across as defensive because I'm not defensive about this issue- I'm angry- even angrier than I am about the entire Bush selection because both is really nothing but a tool- the Beast if you will and millions of warped fanatics are totally behind what he represents but has accomplished with the aid of Presidents and politicians before him, during him and from both parties.

The last count I saw estimated the dangerous Christian Zionist force at 60 million. 60 million fanatics ready to march to whatever tune the Beast or one of his acolytes like Ralph Reed tell them to.

I am glad that atheist though you are you've been following this closely. I've been trying to follow it from a Christian, Fundy, Jewish and Muslim angle for years now and really do not like the way each of those religions prophecies for these times are 1. lining up and 2. being cleverly exploited by what I consider the forces of evil. We can take religion totally out of the picture and still leave Bush Inc near the top of the list of forces of evil.

:toast:

[goforit]

56. Once again you say it so well!!!!.......Hats of to ya!!!

The two extremes unite just to knock each other out in the end.

[Just Me]

32. The Religious Politic,...

,...continues its destruction. Hey, Joe,...when will you get that it is about human potential? I am so sick of the "stuck in mud" political and religious fever that kills human growth. "Righteousness" isn't about YOU,...or anything about YOU!!! People can tell the difference between SELF-righteousness,...and the other RIGHTeousness,...

[Deja Q]

35. Well, if tommy franks and bushatic* remove the constitution then

THEY ARE ALSO ENEMIES OF FREEDOM. Surely so?

[jsw_81]

36. Lieberman warns us about fanatical Muslims

...yet wants us to elect a Jewish president, namely Joe Lieberman? I have nothing against Jews, but that just doesn't make any sense.

[FrenchieCat]

38. Personally,

I just think that Joe is mad cause Zell's been getting more time....and Zell is not even running!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Joe is a charter member of the NeoCon "crusade" against anyone...

...in the Middle East that is non-Christian/Jewish.

[legin]

46. Another slant on this

Is that this is what might be called a clash of philosophical outlooks on life.

Ideology vs empiricalism. Rule based morality (10 commandments type of thing) vs Analysis of the situation. Big concepts vs Facts.

A sort of conversation I had at work the other day hilighted it for me. A pro-war guy said something along the lines of "terrorism is always wrong, and you can't make deals with terrorists". A very easy way of dealing with the complexities of life because all one has to do is remember a short rule and not bother with reading a lot of background history to come up with a valuation of the actions of people involved in the situation.

Lieberman is showing a trait I have noticed and what might be called 'taking refuge in the biggest concepts possible (Global Religious War) as a way of not dealing with those irratating little empirical details'.

[legin]

48. Another example

is the way bush* wheels out the big symbols of democracy, freedom, and peace at every concievable opputunity to try to paint into insignificance the very real details of oil grabbing, I/P and Halliburton.

[legin]

50. Yet another example

The use of the anti-Semitism charge to silence people who have a gripe about what Sharon has done recently.

Always the use of abstract cultural/moral concepts to try to quash specific (low-level?) analysis of a situation.

[young_at_heart]

51. Endless war........is that his answer?

Sometimes it seems as though the war hawks don't think beyond the immediate moment.

[coralrf]

52. Well let me be a politically incorrect Democrat..

and break all the rules. Lieberman is Jewish. He has shoved that down our throats for years. Iraq is full of Arabs. You get to kill Arabs in Iraq. That is why guys like Perle, Wolfowitz and Lieberman like that war.

Rant and flame all you want to. In that part of the world Jews love to kill Arabs and Arabs love to kill Jews. Don’t think so..you must be dead. Pretending that this is not the case is a major contributor to an on going problem. Call me what you like. Lieberman is also a dickless little shit...a two faced little pecker head that should be abandoned by the Democrats.

If you are Jewish but not Lieberman flame on: I don’t give a shit. I am talking about that smarmy little prick in congress not Judaism. Spin it up your ass if you like but that little draft dodger loves the blood as does Sharon and the rest of the boys. Everything Lieberman has said about Iraq is bullshit and now the asswipe is trying to bounce his lies off of Bush’s. What a prick. Sanctimonious Clinton hating little prick.

There are many Jews, most in fact, that see the Iraq war as an injustice to the Iraqi’s but Liebershit is not one of them. He is a little shit faced prick that wants Gentiles to kill Arabs while he plays holier than thou. What a fucking waste of air that little asshole of a man is.

Drop the pussy and get on with Democracy and putting Bush in a Texas beer bar. I think Gore made one mistake and that was Liebershit. I have hated that little bastard with a passion ever since his Clinton stabbing, self serving pious crap.

What would you think if Trent Lott advocated the slaughter of Africans? Man, I can imagine this board would light up.

[edzontar]

53. Holy Joe should leave and go away....

Hey hey hey...Hey hey hey...

Seriously, I have had my fill of that little turd.

[quaker bill]

54. Holy Joe has half of the point

I think he is correct about there being a very real downside to the appearance of defeat in Iraq. However, calling for 'victory' is no answer.

The Israeli experience indicates that the level of brutality required to obtain something that would simulate 'victory' is not something we will readily commit. The Israeli's haven't attained victory and they have shown themselves far more capable of very aggresive action. Simply stated, 'victory' is unattainable, given we wish to preserve our ideas of a civil society.

This is the conundrum, something I gather Bush I was aware enough to catch on to. Once we engaged this enemy there was no way out. We are not willing as a society to tolerate the image of being a brutal oppressor for long. Brutal oppression is the only approach that has ever achieved victory over a popular insurgency

This is why the fantasy of being greeted as beloved liberators was so attractive to them. It was the only way that this was ever going to work.

If we leave, and it appears like defeat, the terrorists will only be emboldened. They will continue to kill us as long as we are willing to stay. We will not adopt the sort of tactics that will put an end to the insurgency.

It is the perfect lose-lose scenario.

[IndianaGreen]

55. Israel's occupation of Palestine has brutalized Israel

just as our occupation of Iraq is brutalizing us. I see the US resemble the Russian army in Chechnya, another dirty little war of occupation we don't hear much about.

We must leave Iraq. We must leave Iraq now.

[quaker bill]

58. I wish we hadn't gone in the first place

This war is a crime. I agree with you, we should leave.

There is no victory to be obtained staying or leaving. We only get to chose when it ends. The sooner the better.

The only thing accomplished here has been to elevate ourselves as a target for terrorist action. It is the only outcome we were ever likely to obtain.

You are correct,long term occupation will brutalize this country further.

[ramapo]

57. How about religious war in America?

Joe better worry about that.

Since the "uniter" was selected the country has become more divided. See the other LBN post about Americans split/voting along religious lines.

That's a centerpiece Rethug strategy.

[Classical_Liberal]

60. Lieberman and his ilk are causing it!

Iraq is making fundy islam more powerful.

[Kinkistyle]

64. Joe's answer to religious fundamentalism: Kill them.

I thought we had rised out of the Dark Ages that spawned the Crusades, Inquisition, etc...

The dumbass warmongering sellout doesn't recognize that thousands upon thousands of civilians are being killed in this "religious war" and that most of the attackers are probably just patriotic Iraqis who want the U.S. out of Iraq and nothing more.

[Myra]

65. Holy Joe is furthering the PNAC goal of making Islam the new Big Bad.

To replace communism and Russia.

But the really important point here is that Lieberman
no doubt said it with an "elaborate sense of humor just
under the surface of" his eyes. That should make The Nation's
Matt Taibbi wet with adoration.