NYT:Up to 10,000 Israeli Troops Push Into Lebanon

[FreeStateDemocrat]

By CRAIG S. SMITH and STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: August 1, 2006
MISGAV AM, Israel, Aug. 1 — Up to 10,000 Israeli troops pushed into Lebanon on a wider front today after the Israeli cabinet decided to widen its offensive, aiming to push Hezbollah back from the border before a cease-fire is declared and a multinational force is deployed there.

Israeli troops backed by air support, tanks and armored bulldozers entered Lebanon at four different places along the border, moving up to four and a half miles inside Lebanon to engage Hezbollah fighters and destroy their outposts and infrastructure.

Red-and-white tourist buses full of soldiers who had waited for more than two weeks for orders moved into Lebanon today through corridors cleared by bulldozers, tanks and engineering units.

There were house-to-house battles with hundreds of Hezbollah fighters in Lebanese towns and villages close to the border, but the fighting has been intermittent and closely contained, partly to keep down Israeli casualties.

At least three Israeli soldiers and more than 20 Hezbollah fighters died in periods of heavy fighting today, according to Arabic television and the Israeli Army, which censored its own casualty figures. News agencies reported that Israeli officials said 300 of an estimated 2,000 Hezbollah fighters have been killed since the offensive began. Israeli troops may push northward to the Litani River, some 15 miles from the Israeli border, cabinet ministers said following the meeting, which ended long after midnight. But the Israeli intention now seems to be to clear out a wide strip of land along the border into which an international force can deploy without itself having to fight Hezbollah, a cabinet minister said. (cont'd)




http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/world/middleeast/01cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1154491200&en=e4ca949f9dec94c9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[coalition_unwilling]

1. AKA: Playing into Hezbollah's hands. (eom)

[Blue_In_AK]

6. I agree

They're sure not winning any friends on the international front.

[MGD]

12. They're finally doing the right thing IMO. This is better than bombing

all around.

[shadowknows69]

17. Actually I do agree with that

They'll never get all the Katusyas with air power alone. Now hopefully they'll conduct themselves with some humanity and honor or they'll be fighting the whole country.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. But Northeast Lebanon?

Far, far out of rocket range.

[shadowknows69]

23. Or we'll be in WWIII within a week

six of one half a dozen of another. I hope Israel comes to its senses and realize its being used by the PNAC crew.

[endarkenment]

25. No. The killing and displacement of civilians will increase. nt.

[Barrett808]

29. Juan Cole has openly called it ethnic cleansing. n/t

[Zhade]

33. Cole's right. I'll take him over these pro-Israel newbies-to-geopolitics..

...any day.

Note the propaganda in the article (these same pro-Israel amateurs probably didn't): "...and destroy their outposts and infrastructure" - as if the truth isn't that it's Lebanese infrastructure Hezbollah is taking advantage of!

[seafan]

2. 20,000 Israeli troops entering Lebanon, reported by Asian source.

According to ChannelNewsAsia, it's many more Israeli troops crossing into Lebanon.

Media reports said as many as 20,000 troops were pouring into Lebanon, where three soldiers were reported killed as clashes flared in several hotspots Tuesday along the border zone where Israel wants to eradicate Hezbollah.

See this thread also:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2428336&mesg_id=2428715

[Gully Foyle]

3. Ok

And once they start dying will withdraw.
Unless the plan to push all the way to Syria.

[wakeme2008]

4. Israel get the body bags ready

you will be taking a lot of them back with you.. Hope you did not expect roses to be toss your way.

[BeHereNow]

5. This is seriously bad news...

Look out Syria.
Look out Iran.

Hang on to your hats people-
the ride's about to get really rough.

BHN

[HereSince1628]

7. The risk of a vehicle taking the wrong turn and ending up

caught in Syria isn't exactly zero even if it is very low.

Let's hope that an Israeli unit doesn't get lost and do a "Jessica Lynch" that starts WWIII

[Earth_First]

9. The CIA already has this covered...

The vehicles were painted in Texas this past weekend and deployed to the region overnight.

[HereSince1628]

18. Oh. . . MIHOP to WWIII is really a scary thought.

[shadowknows69]

19. Wouldn't suprise me a bit

wouldn't suprise me if the CIA has a few Katyusa rockets in their inventory too.

[durtee librul]

35. I couldn't agree more

with you that this is just the start.....Syria is already to do battle. I still do NOT for the life of me understand why the hell everyone wants to drop bombs and shoot each other all the time.....Bush .... what an f'g joke and his pimp ho Condi...

[BeHereNow]

37. Welcome to DU-

And as far as what you don't understand-
understand this:
It is all about POWER- the neocons are bound and determined
to amass more and more power into fewer and fewer hands.
That is the bottom line.
The people in the ME are inconvenient details to the neocons.
They do not care how many die; US soldiers, Lebanese civilians-
these are insignificant annoyances to the neocon corporatist.
BHN

[toska]

8. Red and White Tourist Busses?

So who's hiding behind "civillians" now? When was the last time a country launched an invasion by bus?

[Karenina]

10. Israel will push its border north

to encompass the Litani River by any means necessary. Water is essential.

[ThomCat]

27. I'm surprised that you're the first to say this.

Access to water has been the big conflict Israel has with Lebanon. One of the primary effects of the prior occupation of Lebanon was to monopolize the water access. There is no way Israel would go to all this trouble to massacre people in Lebanon without monopolizing the water again.

[EFerrari]

11. This is such bad news.

:(

[MGD]

13. It's better than ithe apparent ndiscriminate bombing. nt

[EFerrari]

15. I don't think so. It just put thousands of more people directly

in harm's way.

We don't learn.

[MGD]

30. Once again, Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't

It is only the idealists who will never learn.

[EFerrari]

31. I wasn't talking about Israel. I was talking about bodies in

mortal danger because apparently, the world has run out of diplomats, let alone strategists.

Please conserve your huff. You're going to need it.

Did you know that Golda Meir crossed into Jordan in full male drag one evening to meet with the head of state and try to avert bloodshed?

I wonder what she would think of this clusterfuck.

:hi:

[High Plains]

28. But not nearly as good as just regional peace deal.

Israel really should get around to trying a JUST PEACE some time. Or else prepare to spend the rest of its history like the last 50 years.

[Zhade]

34. It's not "apparent", it IS indiscriminate bombing.

Unless you somehow know more than Human Rights Watch and other relief agencies.

You don't.

And since we know the Israeli army will kill innocents on the ground (they have before, many times), this will just be a more face-to-face slaughter.

But keep on supporting those war crimes, buddy. Let's us all see who's really committed to justice and peace, and who's for war and death.

[MGD]

38. ________

"It's not "apparent", it IS indiscriminate bombing. Unless you somehow know more than Human Rights Watch and other relief agencies."

They are using precision guided munitions to degrade hezbollah capabilities. Neither you, I, or any relief agency is involved in this crisis at the decision making level so neither you, I, or any relief agency is qualified to make judgments concerning target selection. I have been saying for the past week, however, that Israel needs to give up the air war and attack Hezbollah with infantry in order to minimize collateral damage.

"And since we know the Israeli army will kill innocents on the ground (they have before, many times), this will just be a more face-to-face slaughter."

Any army will kill innocents. It has always been thus; however, by engaging this enemy on the ground in CQB, innocent lives will be spared as I seriously doubt that the Israeli infantry is going to waste time, energy, and offensive momentum attacking unarmed civilians. They'll have their hands full with Hezbollah. There is no doubt that CQB will reduce collateral damage. Your refusal to accept this obvious truth coupled with the overly emotional tone of your rhetoric suggests that I am arguing with a brick wall.

"But keep on supporting those war crimes, buddy."
It's amazing how easily some people are able to make a moral judgment by accusing Israel of committing war crimes while ignoring the war crimes committed by Hezbollah. Are the rockets being fired INDISCRIMINATELY into Israeli cities not a war crime "buddy"?

"Let's us all see who's really committed to justice and peace, and who's for war and death."

I freely admit that I wish to see Islamic extremists killed and I am all for war against them. My only issue about it is the poor prosecution of this "war on terror" by the current administration. I do think Kerry could have done better.

[Zhade]

39. Of course Hezbollah's attacks on civilians are crimes. I've said that.

We expect better out of a supposedly democratic state like Israel (Israeli Arabs' voting status aside), and expect nothing less than crimes from a confirmed terrorist group.

As far as "I do think Kerry could have done better", you're probably right, because he disagree with your war approach and supports police actions (as in, using police, not using military and calling it a 'police action').

And you're right on one thing - I should have been more precise and said that the Israeli military has *targeted* civilians before - which it has - to make my meaning clearer.

[MGD]

40. Not to me you didn't.

"Of course Hezbollah's attacks on civilians are crimes. I've said that.

All I ever hear about from any of the anti-Israel voices are the civilian deaths that resulted from their air campaign. Nobody ever wants to talk about Hezbollah rockets targeting civilians exclusively as it puts a real damper on their whole moral equivalency argument.


"We expect better out of a supposedly democratic state like Israel (Israeli Arabs' voting status aside), and expect nothing less than crimes from a confirmed terrorist group.

A.)Israel has gone to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties. If they weren't going to those lengths, civilian casualties would be counted in the tens of thousands by now instead of the hundreds.
B.)You have held Israel to a double standard and they have fought under that double standard and yet they are still condemned by you and those others who will find fault with them no matter what they do.
C.)Israel has attempted for years to meet anti-Semitic terrorists with proportional responses and they were condemned for that too while the anti-Semitic forces that waged their terrorist war against Israel enjoyed a disproportionate amount of UN support from the numerous Arab state members. Now that they have chosen what many have called a disproportionate response, they are condemned again by the same old voices.


"As far as "I do think Kerry could have done better", you're probably right, because he disagree with your war approach and supports police actions (as in, using police, not using military and calling it a 'police action').

That wasn't the idea that he proposed in the debates with GW. His rhetoric suggested that he was very much in agreement with "my war approach". I don't think anybody would be surprised if he now holds a different view however.

"And you're right on one thing - I should have been more precise and said that the Israeli military has *targeted* civilians before - which it has - to make my meaning clearer."

Perhaps you could be even more clear and precise by providing some kind of evidence to support this assertion.

[BeHereNow]

16. I'm with you sistah!

I think we stand on the brink of a very deep abyss.
The world is about to be irrevocably fucked.
All because of the neocon empirical delusions
about running the world.
Oh my...
What can we do but stand by and weep
for the loss of sanity and beauty...
It's so sad really.

BHN

[EFerrari]

20. After so many years of death and destruction, I don't even have

the energy to weep or even to hate the cons.

It's just profoundly sad.

[BeHereNow]

21. I hear you- I've been making art to balance it in my own back yard-

I firmly believe that every beautiful thing we create/manifest
with our hearts and hands, in some way, balances the
EVIL that is gripping the world.
"Make art, not war."
That's my bumper sticker for the times
we live in.
I would go crazy if it were not for my guitars, piano
and clay.

BHN

[EFerrari]

32. I agree. Completely.

But, at this moment, I'm lucky to be surrounded by circus people and makers. Were I still commuting for Ma Bell, I can't imagine how I would manage.

I guess our choice is to find a way or, to find some other way. lol

:hug:

[shadowknows69]

14. Is is still just missions or can we call it an invasion yet?

n/t

[endarkenment]

24. What exactly is justifying this war crime? nt

[Karmakaze]

26. 2000 Hizbullah fighters in Lebanon?

Hizbullah controls the whole of south Lebanon with only 2000 fighters?

[bemildred]

41. They have no clue how many there are.

These numbers are all pulled out of someones ass.

[bluedog]

36. Its still an invasion of Lebanon a sovereign country

[saigon68]

42. The NeoCons will do anything for Corporate Profits.

[newspeak]

43. I wondered why so many are so surprised

I knew we were in deep shite as soon as this bloody administration was selected. All you have to do is follow the money--laws, what laws? They don't need no stinking laws!!!! If you look at previous administrations, it is their foreign policies that help set the tone to the rest of the world!!! And, this administration has had war on their mind from the git go. There are no surprises---so, I'm still asking why our great ally Israel finds that it has to spy on us? Let's face it, the neo-cons from both Israel and US play off each other!!!! But, who has the most to lose? Israel, it's true, has nukes, but would they use them if there was a chance of blow back? This administration only knows how to use, exploit for their own PNAC agenda, and nothing more.

[saigon68]

44. Certain psychopaths like Rumsfeld and Negroponte enjoy the KILLING