Tour de France winner Landis gives positive drug test, team says.

[Roon]

Breaking on http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[SaveElmer]

1. What an idiot...

These guys always think they can get away with it...

I am not including Lance in this category as I am convinced he was clean

[bigscott]

3. why are you so convinced of Lance

being clean? Just asking

[SaveElmer]

8. Because it seems...

Officials have little trouble catching actual cheaters...from what I have read Lance has completely complied with every test, every investigation for 8 years, and come up clean in every one.

The tests supposedly conducted by the French paper on 8 year old control samples is invalid in every way conceivable.

There is no convincing evidence, epidemiological or otherwise that Lance was doping during any of his 7 victories

[Ravenseye]

10. Agreed

The report the French paper made was laughable when you look at what the basis of it was.

They catch cheaters every year in cycling, yet Lance always tested clean. He's either clean or the best cheater in the history of sport, given the focus on him. Which is more likely?

[TlalocW]

36. The science is always having to play catch-up

To the latest doping technology. I don't know what Lance says, but most athletes when asked will reply, "I've never tested positive," not, "I've never doped."

TlalocW

[wtmusic]

42. or "I always ride clean"

which can be construed as being relative. They are never asked, "have you used performance-enhancing drugs?" and they never offer it up.

[pokercat999]

83. Either way he's the world's best at what he does. nt

[wtmusic]

26. "Officials have little trouble catching cheaters..."

Not true. Though the science of EPO (Erythropoietin) detection is rapidly advancing, the science of cheating is advancing faster. Latest trend: daily microdoses of the performance-enhancing drug to keep levels just outside the detection window.

[SaveElmer]

29. My understanding however..

Is that it is not only blood and urine testing, but investigations into other evidence, and people can be suspended even absent epidemiological evidence...I believe that happened this year..

Lance complied with all of those investigations and no evidence was found.

[MGD]

35. There's no need to use epogen when you can just transfuse a unit or two

of packed red blood cells before a game/match/whatever. Most people's hemoglobin runs a little low of normal anyways. The newest thing I have heard of is "mechano-growth-factor". It's beyond steroids. It's the stuff responsible for repairing damaged muscle cells e.g the soreness experienced after lifting weights or running.

[acmejack]

48. Absolutely agree!

They wanted Armstrong in the worst way. I believe he was clean, unbelievable as it may seem.

edit, The scourge of spelling!

[wtmusic]

49. he's probably been clean post-cancer

but according to sworn testimony from two former teammates he admitted to using steroids in 1998. Both have nothing to gain.

[LostinVA]

40. He is the most tested athlete ever

They tested him year-round, very randomly, and it was always a surprise: he never tested dirty... EVER. There's no way to constantly taper. Also, his competition samples were always clean. A court in France found him not guilty of doping. And, there has never been any evidence (excepting hearsay) that he ever doped after his cancer. Before? I have no idea. And, the cancer... I would be surprised if someone who should have died would have screwed around with his life. Also, the dude in charge of the TDF has had it in for Lance for years and years: from trying to make the course "Lance proof" to using his sports sheet to advance yellow journalism stories against Armstrong.

There's many non-drug reasons why Armstrong stayed at the top so long.

Maybe he did, but if so? He invented a drug that can't be detected... it's hard not to be caught in some way... as shown by most of the top riders not being in the TDF this year. And now Landis.

For the record, I don't care for Armstrong as a person except for his work with his charity, but I think he has been unfairly targeted by certain officials and press. (I will say that this reason makes me hope the protocol chain of Landis' sample is pure -- because there are some people I wouldn't trust not to mess around with samples.)

[SensibleAmerican]

85. Because he tested clean

Multiple times

[MGD]

27. I hear that steroids are used to help cancer pt's retain muscle mass

during extended periods of chemotherapy. I see them in the narcotics drawers all the time actually for this very purpose. The chemo therapy drugs cause nausea/vomitting and severe loss of appetite which leads to cachexia, AKA, wasting and, ultimately, death. Can it really be held against Lance if he used presrcibed steroids for this reason? I'm not saying that he did mind you but, if he did, it makes him no less a hero IMO.

[wtmusic]

30. interesting ethical question

and if not, you may soon find all sorts of athletes with diagnosed "conditions" which need treatment...

[AngryAmish]

31. In baseball a lot of folks have "caught" ADD

Stimulents are banned this years but ADD drugs (adderal, etc.), with a MD's note, is OK.

[pitohui]

61. they are indeed used for this purpose

there is no way he didn't use his prescribed meds just because some jealous french people might not like it

[jakefrep]

88. I have absolutely no doubt...

that Lance Armstrong, in the course of dealing with and recovering from cancer, took drugs that the sports anti-doping Nazis have deemed "performance-enhancing." I see absolutely nothing wrong with that - he was using the drugs for their intended purpose.

Therein lies the problem I have with the "anti-doping" crusade in sports. Most of the "performance-enhancing" substances on the banned list have legitimate, theraputic uses. It's reaching the point that an athlete cannot avail themselves of the same treatments that you and I take for granted, solely because some clueless dope in Switzerland thinks it's "performance-enhancing."

[newscott]

58. There is no way Lance would have won even one tour clean.

They're all doping. Some are better at it than others.

[LostinVA]

62. Of course he could have -- I don't believe all of them are doping

And, I even bet many don't HAVE to dope.

[October]

71. If they all were doping, it'd be a level field.

:sarcasm:

[SaveElmer]

65. Look...

Unless there is some modicum of proof I am not willing to say that...Lance was heavily scrutinized and came up clean by every remotely credible measure

[sofa king]

79. I don't know if he was or not, but...

Armstrong does have one thing going for him that most others don't. He builds up lactic acid more slowly than just about anyone else ever tested.

That means less muscle fatigue and less pain per mile cycled. I'm sure that counts for a lot of his success.

[gasperc]

2. the guys amish and has a bad hip

he probably took some kind of pain medication

[Ravenseye]

7. Mennonite - Simulant

Mennonite not Amish.
Stimulant not Pain Med.

Just sayin'

[LostinVA]

41. He's Mennonite, not Amish (what does that have to do with anything?

And testosterone isn't issued for pain meds... *sigh* I never liked Landis, but cannot believe he was so stupid!

[skipos]

4. Is this the Mennonite guy?

I don't follow sports.

[Ravenseye]

6. yes he's Mennonite

if anything, that makes it surprising. When I heard about his 'miracle' comeback I was a touch suspicious. Though the report said it was a stimulant, though not which stimulant...but apparently it was a banned substance..just not steroids or blood doping.

[President Jesus]

87. ...and his dad is a card-carrying repubican

Floyd Landis Sr campaign contributions to the GOP

[Ravenseye]

5. Read it was a stimulant

Damn that french roast!

[unda cova brutha]

9. and the world opinion of amerika slips more

if we are not starting illegal wars all over the place, we are now cheating in international events.

[Hosnon]

Slow down there...don't forget that a WHOLE TON of them got booted before

the Tour started...from all over the world.

[Ravenseye]

14. That won't matter

I love Europe, but if there's one thing they love to do is jump on American's with faults. Serve them up a prime rib like this and they'll feast for months. It won't matter that tons got the boot before the tour even started, all they'll know is "The American Cheated To Win" and use it as an indictment against Landis, Lance Armstrong, American Cycling, and the Country as a whole.

More fuel on the fire.

[Hosnon]

23. I know. I'm currently in Paris and if anyone mentions it then I have two

words for them:

Ullrich and Basso: Pre-race favorites that were busted by Spain.

[Ravenseye]

28. They'll probably shrug it off

The french particularly are quite good at dismissing completely valid evidence if they don't like the point it makes with a simple flick of the wrist and a slight vocalization. It's quite impressive actually. ;)

[Hosnon]

34. That's true. I doubt anyone will say anything. It doesn't seem like that

many of them cared about the Tour to begin with.

This year's race was just a clusterfuck.

[Nimrod2005]

12. Yes, plus dicredits Lance Armstrong ???

Here we go again...

[sabbat hunter]

22. a whole bunch

of spaniards got caught before the race.

before the olympics there were a bunch of people banned.

this isnt just an american issue. it happens all over sports

[Hosnon]

25. It wasn't Spanish racers that got busted. The Spanish led the

investigation. The dopers were from all over the world...58 in all.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

39. Come on

That statement is absurd on its face.

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

11. Direct link.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/

[Ravenseye]

17. So it was doping then

Same thing they caught Ben Johnson for in the 88 olympics.

[Benhurst]

13. Cheated to win? How presidential of him. NT

[wtmusic]

15. Say it ain't so, Floyd

This is very sad.

[cosmik debris]

16. Testosterone??

Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone, his team American Phonak said on Thursday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/

[AngryAmish]

20. Maybe his defense will be a variant of Mike Tyson's defense?

[Ravenseye]

21. Evidence of Steroids

Normally there is a 1:1 ration of testosteone to epitestosterone. When the ratio is out of whack it's evidence of steroids. A ratio of 6:1 is considered a positive test.

For instance when Ben Johnson was caught doping in the 88 olympics his ratio was at 10.3:1.

[sueragingroz]

74. Ben Johnson will die of Liver Cancer

Stanozolol has a 100% rate of hepatic cancer in the doses he was taking. He took horse steroids. Absolute insanity.

Being Canadian, I remember this one well and I was taking a toxicology degree at the time and trust me, this was discussed at length by my University physiology 360Y Professor...

[brentspeak]

82. Holy mackerel

100%. I hope for Ben Johnson it was all worth it.

[sueragingroz]

86. It wasn't

My brother in law was in a bar in Scarborough once - where Ben was living at the time - this was back in the early '90's.

Ben came up to one of his female friends and asked her for a dance.

She gracefully declined.

He said "what do you mean No? I'm Ben Johnson!!"

She laughed at him.


Trust me. It wasn't worth it.

[sabbat hunter]

33. could it be a cortosteriod

for treatment on his injured hip? would not be unusual to get a cortisone shot or similar treatment for it.


will have to wait and see if a doctor treated the hip and gave him a shot.

[MallRat]

51. A corticosteroid wouldn't light up in this test.

Cortisone wouldn't give a false positive in measuring testosterone/epitestosterone ratios.

This looks very, very bad. I hope the "B" sample comes back negative. Otherwise, professional cycling might as well be professional WRESTLING.

-MR

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

55. I'm not a biochemist but the following article disagrees with you

http://salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2006/07/27/thursday/index1.html

Eustice pointed out that it doesn't make sense for Landis, who has a reputation as a clean rider, to have doped before going all-out to win a stage, knowing he'd then be tested. He also pointed out that Landis has been taking legal cortisone shots, which can boost testosterone levels and fool the test, and that a top rider with a chance to win the test would likely be a little more creative than just doping up on testosterone.

"Testosterone is something that's fairly easily found," he said. "It's not like it's some complicated blood-doping scheme that somehow the laboratory figured out at the end. This is something real straightforward. It just doesn't seem to fit in the approach of someone who's going to win the Tour de France."

[derby378]

18. Actually, it's testosterone

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=2242133

[Ravenseye]

24. Well this article makes it sound like it's not Landis

They said it doesn't appear to be Landis or a US rider, that they haven't announced the actual rider yet until backup tests are complete, and that they've notified the team and national governing body, and the US spokesman says they haven't been contacted.

Maybe it's not Landis.

[Rose Siding]

32. The article says it's not him, and the banner says it is

snip>
While the cyclist who tested positive for doping at the Tour de France won't be identified until backup tests are complete, it does not appear to be any member of USA Cycling including champion Floyd Landis.

[A HERETIC I AM]

37. Landis did not ride for a US team. He rode for a Swiss team

Phonak.

He was NOT riding for an American Team.

[wtmusic]

45. Phonak Cycling server is crashed

http://www.phonak.com/company/phonakcycling.htm

[slackmaster]

72. I got on to a mirror server or something

Aufgrund der hohen Zahl an Zugriffen kann es sein, dass Sie eine vereinfachte Version der „News“-Seite sehen.

OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM THE PHONAK CYCLING TEAM MANAGEMENT

Hombrechtikon, 27.07.06

English

The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI of an unusual level of Testosteron/Epitestosteron ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France.

The Team Management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result. The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation. In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear. If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations.

Please understand that we cannot at this time give you more detailed comments.

http://www.phonak-cycling.ch/

I would also note that many athletes who have shown positive on the test in question have beaten it.

[AngryAmish]

19. Did he have to drop after every stage?

If so is there a way to have an aberrant sample/test? If he dropped after stage 18/19 etc. would that not also reflect the increased testosterone?

[gauguin57]

38. I live in the county Floyd is originally from. There are banners all over

Lancaster County, PA, saying "congratulations, floyd"... he is a real hero here.

Wonder how fast those banners will come down today.

I just can't believe Floyd could be so stupid! I wondered how he could get through that "miracle comeback" day without painkillers, but ... a stimulant? sheesh!

[wtmusic]

47. Are there any role models anymore?

Sheesh, is right. I just got my son interested in pro cycling and we watched every stage of the Tour together. I'm dreading telling him about this.

[Hav]

50. .

I even once heard an ex-driver who was so mad because even young drivers get confronted with drugs. So be careful.

[Ryano42]

43. Just saying...

This was not explained in the Media. There are A and B (pending) tests then tests for the source of the elevated level. So it isn't done and over yet.

But another terrible black eye to a suspect sport.

I quit racing mountain bikes year ago because I had no chance winning against guys who were obviously on speed...Chiahuahuas quivering on the starting line... :mad:

[robcon]

44. I thought his recovery was suspicious

I thought he was on the juice all the time.

[durrrty libby]

46. I don't know what to believe about anything these days.

Up is down....yes is no

Everybody lies.

It's all so distressing.

[HuffleClaw]

52. following lance's example?

baaaaad idea.

[LostinVA]

64. LInk to evidence of Armstrong illegal doping? n/t

[AtomicKitten]

53. He has avascular necrosis of his hip and is on numerous drugs

I'll wait to see what the final analysis of this is.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

54. Sad

I hope the backup sample clears him but if not he's a damned fool. After Ulrich and Basso were ejected?

Landis's TDF victory was one positive in an otherwise shitty for me.

[alarimer]

67. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him to cheat

knowing about the controversy before the start of the race and how heavily scrutinized everyone would be. I am guessing that it has something to do with his medications, not that I am an expert of anything. Even if the other sample is clean and even if they can find the source of the bad reading, it won't make him clean in some eyes, no matter the evidence.

[Hav]

68. .

I don't know about the medication. If it could be explained by the medication, would the effects give him an advantage? When the ratio is so much higher, then I guess it gives him quite an advantage and either way it wouldn't be fair.

Also, maybe he was desperate after stage 16 where he lost like 10 minutes. Still he had to know that one would test him.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

56. More on this

http://salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2006/07/27/thursday/

Speaking on ESPNews, John Eustice, the network's cycling analyst, said, "If this is indeed true and it all does come out, it'll be the greatest blow the sport has ever, ever, ever had." But he also cautioned that Landis is a long way from being convicted.

"Every time an athlete has disputed a testosterone test," he said, "they have won. So the test is not quite as reliable as everyone thinks."

[slackmaster]

57. They must have used French men as a standard for testosterone levels

:hide:

[Hav]

60. .

That's what the posters at freerepublic said again and again ;).
Also as another poster pointed out, the test is about the "ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone" and not only about the testosterone level.

[Flagg]

63. Americans should be banned from the Tour

Cheaters and francophobes aren't welcome in France anymore.

[slackmaster]

73. Never mind

Not worth getting dinged by the moderators over this.

[Flagg]

77. why don't just you stop the French are pussies/coward "jokes"

spitting on our dead by calling us cowards every chance you get is not a joke.

in France there are war memorials in every cities, towns and villages with the names of the local kids who died for their country (we're talking millions here) engraved in stone.

None of them died with their hands up.

[redacted]

59. Hey are the medical conditions that can cause high testosterone?

Holding out some hope here.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hav]

69. .

Heh, even if it's in good fun, that's a little bit disgusting.
Whatever, sometimes I wished that people would only post the link ;).

[Ezlivin]

70. As AC/DC said "I've got big balls"

Well I'm upper upper class high society
God's gift to ballroom notoriety
And I always fill my ballroom
The event is never small
The social pages say I've got
The biggest balls of all

I've got big balls
I've got big balls
They're such big balls
And they're dirty big balls
And he's got big balls
And she's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)

And my balls are always bouncing
My ballroom always full
And everybody cums and cums again
If your name is on the guest list
No one can take you higher
Everybody says I've got
Great balls of fire

I've got big balls
Oh I've got big balls
And they're such big balls
Dirty big balls
And he's got big balls
And she's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)

Some balls are held for charity
And some for fancy dress
But when they're held for pleasure
They're the balls that I like best
My balls are always bouncing
To the left and to the right
It's my belief that my big balls
Should be held every night

We've got big balls
We've got big balls
We've got big balls
Dirty big balls
He's got big balls
She's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)

(We've got big balls)
(We've got big balls)

And I'm just itching to tell you about them
Oh we had such wonderful fun
Seafood cocktail, crabs, crayfish
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)

(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)

[stop the bleeding]

75. FLOYD'S STATEMENT

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul28news2

[Blue_Tires]

76. we'll see what happens

[brentspeak]

80. .

s/del

[Robb]

89. And you do learn something new every day

...Jack Daniels can increase testosterone? Who'da thunk it? ;)

[madmark]

78. so much for that feel good story

[brentspeak]

81. No wrongdoing has yet been proven

There could be innocent reasons why his tested positive, including a false positive, naturally elevated testerone levels, a prescription medication, etc.

[harpboy_ak]

84. it's the RATIO of testosterone to another hormone

According to tonight's All Things Considered, it's the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone that was out of whack. In spite of the explanation of the complexity on the air by Tom Goldman, their damn newscasts and the web site text blithely talk about "failing a test". Listen to the link at the top of the page at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5587579">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5587579

I'm withholding any judgement because not enough information about the exact nature of the ratio (or its possible causes) has been made public at this point. Floyd has the right to a full and fair adjudication of any suspension. Anyone cycling at the level of Tour riders trains and rides at such a high level of aerobic activity that the amount of endorphins and hormones generated must be immense compared to ordinary weekend racers. I expect that we'll hear a lot of testimony from experts and more about Landis' body chemistry and medical history will be public than for any other athlete.

[yowzayowzayowza]

90. More Coverage...

This testosterone ratio seems pretty shakey. They should not strip him of the title until he has an opportunity to appeal, imho.

Coupla extended Landis press phone conferences follow this story:

http://velonews.com/race/int/articles/10597.0.html