Nuns are focus of sexual abuse allegations

[deadparrot]

MINNEAPOLIS, June 25 (UPI) -- More than 400 people across the United States have come forward to allege they were molested by Roman Catholic nuns in their childhood, a report says.

The Minneapolis Star Tribune said many of these men and women also have filed lawsuits against various religious orders, but their cases may never truly be addressed in a courtroom.

The newspaper said litigation roadblocks include how to assign blame to those in the 450 women's religious orders in the United States -- the orders are usually independent of Catholic dioceses -- and the reluctance of attorneys to move forward with such cases.

Yet another legal roadblock in states such as Minnesota is the statute of limitations for such lawsuits. In an ongoing Minnesota suit against the Rochester, Minn., Franciscans, the attorney for the plaintiff is attempting to extend the time limit to allow for an alleged recovered memory of the abuse.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060625-023616-4930r

More: http://www.startribune.com/462/story/513614.html

[Thickasabrick]

1. NUNS???? Holy crap!

[dipsydoodle]

3. Reminds me of the play on words

Where's the soap / wears the soap. I won't elaborate further.

[cantstandbush]

120. Religion has been used as a cover for more than just politics for

centuries. What the hell do you think eunuchs were? Religion is used as a cover for organized crime, politics, sex, murder, incest, polygamy..you name it. Now is the US it is being used for war and profit.

[LeftyMom]

2. "recovered memory" isn't reliable enough to be the basis to ruin a life

We know that in the hands of an overzealous, unskilled or unethical therapists people can "recover" memories that are proven fictions and there is a great deal of evidence that even in the hands of the most scrupulous care providers recovered memory isn't reliably true.

[Warpy]

6. Well said, LeftyMom

Those of us who suffered abuse know those memories generally don't need to be recovered. They intrude at the most inopportune times and it takes a tremendous amount of work to detoxify them.

People who need all sorts of heroics to recover lost memories generally have some other problem altogether.

[LeftyMom]

10. That's certainly my experience and that of many survivors I know

It's kinda telling to me that the "recovered memories" all seem to be related to sexual abuse or mistreatement with an intense feeling of helplessness, whether the scenario is a fairly plausible scenario of child abuse, a wild tale of satanic ritual abuse or something really off the wall like alien abduction. Imobilization and paralysis also seem to be common themes, along with repeated impregnantion and later removal of the pregnancy or baby (this is one of the more easily disproven claims as both repeated pregnancy losses and both vaginal and surgical birth leave telltale signs no doctor could miss.)

[fishwax]

13. are you saying that memories aren't repressed at all

or just that they reveal themselves rather than requiring the help of a therapist to be "recovered"?

I've always found the whole terminology of "recovered memory" troubling, because it seems to imply memories coaxed out in therapy, which can't often be considered trustworthy. But I don't think it's particularly uncommon for a memory to be hidden/ignored/repressed whatever for a while and reveal itself (or its implications) at, as you say, the most inopportune times.

[Warpy]

21. I'm saying that "recovered memories"

have all too often proven to be a load of bollocks, ruining lives of both the "rememberer" and whatever target gets chosen as the repository for whatever else is going on with that particular person.

I'll reiterate. Most of us remember all too easily, as much as we'd love to be able to forget.

[fishwax]

27. Right, but by recovered memories

are you speaking in the sense of therapeutically recovered memories? The theory of (so-called) "recovered memory therapy" is justifiably controversial and, as far as I know, has no real scientific support. But theories of repressed memory (such as dissociative amnesia) aren't particularly controversial. (Though there are those who claim that traumatic memories are never repressed, and that any notion of repression is a scam, that's not the prevailing view.)

Anyway, I have no faith in recovered memory therapy, and am generally skeptical of recovered memory, as commonly understood. But I also know that, while most (virtually all) people who suffer abuse as children don't forget, they may not always or immediately remember completely, and part of the horror of it all is how details that cannot be forgotten reveal further details that can no longer be ignored, further fueling cycles of pain and guilt.

[MichiganVote]

40. There is no such thing as "recovered memory therapy".

There are clinicians who have utilized hypnosis to facilitate the retieval of memory in cases involving abuse OR other criminal circumstances.

Exactly where do you get your assertion that,"(virtually all) people who suffer abuse as children don't forget". How do you know this? What do you use to assure yourself of this? And why is it that you assume that in order for an event to be real, no part of it can have been forgotten?

[fishwax]

44. an odd post

There is no such thing as "recovered memory therapy".

There are clinicians who have utilized hypnosis to facilitate the retieval of memory in cases involving abuse OR other criminal circumstances.

Umm, okay. The use of hypnosis to facilitate the retrieval of memory is known as recovered memory therapy. It's controversial. If you have evidence that it works, please share. I really don't know what to say to the charge that it doesn't exist.

Exactly where do you get your assertion that,"(virtually all) people who suffer abuse as children don't forget". How do you know this? What do you use to assure yourself of this?

I don't assure myself of that. I believe it to be true, based on what I've read, experienced, and learned from others. Also, for the sake of clarity my actual quote was: "while most (virtually all) people who suffer abuse as children don't forget, they may not always or immediately remember completely."

And why is it that you assume that in order for an event to be real, no part of it can have been forgotten?

I don't assume any such thing. Nor did I say any such thing. In fact, that's the opposite of what I said.

[MichiganVote]

69. RMT, as it is called in some sectors of both the psych. world and

by those opposed to the contention that memories can or are repressed among patients with high levels of dysfunction or mental distress has essentially been created to refute therapeutic techniques such as hypnosis, relaxation therapy and so on. The objections that are raised speak more to the issue of whether or when therapists should or could suspect sexual abuse in the past of a client. Hence, even checklists that may be utilized as a screen for psychosexual dysfunction are considered by some to be RMT.

[woo me with science]

98. Do you mean those ridiculous checklists

that purport to suggest repressed sexual abuse based on endorsement of a collection of vague, high base rate* experiences? Those nonsense checklists that include everything from feeling a lack of confidence to having trouble sleeping to wearing baggy clothes to hating bananas and yogurt?

Professional licensing organizations have been forced to issue formal statements affirming that it is not possible or ethical to work backward from such checklists to suggest sexual abuse.

Why did they have to issue such statements? Because of quack therapists who naively used the checklists to do exactly that. What a shame that it was even necessary. What a shame that these people still call themselves professionals.

*Don't know what "high base rate" means? Google is your friend.

[readmoreoften]

133. If I remember correctly, there is an age where memory of abuse can be hazy

I think that abuse done to children under three (or maybe it's four) can be remembered as something else because the child's brain has no context for the situation at that age. I don't think those memories are repressed, though.

[MichiganVote]

39. Exactly what makes you an expert on "recovered" memory

It sounds to me as though you are offering an opinion base on what you have read in the media. Without going into details with you, your impressions are wrong. Moreoever, you have no way of knowing how many people remember anything at anytime easily or with difficulty.

The vast majority of perp's confess to exactly what the victims recount.....

[woo me with science]

58. Nonsense.

Now you are making things up.

Give me a shred of evidence that the "vast majority of perp's" (sic) confess to the content of repressed memories. What utter nonsense.

[woo me with science]

96. Gee, you still haven't cited YOUR source. nt

[MichiganVote]

42. On the contrary, in the 14 years I worked with survivors, most if not all

worked very hard to piece together their history. If you did not, then you were fortunate.

And for the record, anyone who goes through healing is heroic, whether they utilize a therapist or not. The vast majority of therapists do not utilize hypnosis to assist their clients. Nor do the majority of clients attempt to sue their perps. As such, whatever the client believes, "recovers" or counts as their reality, is really no one else's business but their own.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noonwitch]

76. I would say that in the cases of true recovered memories...

There was already a fragment of the memory present, and something happens to bring the full memory back.

But there are some unethical therapists out there who will try to create a problem where there isn't one. Add in the media's constant hype about sexual abuse cases, and some people are probably vulnerable to a therapist who has an agenda/lawyer friend who specializes in suing parents who abused their kids in the past.

[MichiganVote]

92. And I agree there are unethical therapists who do or do not work

with survivors of sexual abuse, who do or do not utilize hyponosis, and who do or do not participate in lawsuits of any kind. There is considerable controversy about any part of of any memories regarding abuse. That will probably always be the case. Its quite a leap to suggest that survivors who choose to sue are influenced by a therapists association with legal counsel tho'.

[woo me with science]

99. It's sad.

It's always the other therapists who are the unethical ones.

[noonwitch]

126. I said it was possible, not always the case

I didn't say all therapists, or say there was some kind of cabal of lawyers and therapists set up to deal with suing over sex abuse cases.

That said, therapists who specialize in treating survivors of sexual abuse probably tend to know lawyers who specialize in suing in such cases. It's the nature of things-I'm a social worker in children's services and I know lawyers who specialize in family law. We attend the same conferences and trainings, many times, and consult about cases we are working together on.

I was speculating that it is possible for a therapist to team up with a lawyer in such cases. There are a lot of vulnerable people out there who trust too easily.

[pnwmom]

101. It IS someone else's business when they decide to sue someone

about it. And when they sue a church, it is the business of all the church members, who are being held responsible for the person who was employed by the church.

[IndianaGreen]

11. "Recovered memory" is usually a newly implanted memory

It is all bunk and not supported by science.

[MichiganVote]

19. What science are you citing as valid?

[woo me with science]

50. What a neat little rhetorical trick.

You ask a lot of questions, which is very convenient for someone who has no answers.

There have been several recent devastating critiques of the garbage that passes for "evidence" of repressed memories, including one very recent major compilation that is now considered the gold standard. Do you even know the title? Of course not. Clearly you haven't read them if you have to ask for citations.

I bet you help people "discover" multiple personalities, too.

[MichiganVote]

68. And your reason for not posting the title of the article you cite is?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichiganVote]

90. I am not trained in EMDR and don't use it.

And you still haven't cited your source.

[woo me with science]

95. Neither have you. But the difference between us is that

the volume I mention is well-known, reviewed by all major professional organizations in mental health and the New York Times, and would be easily identified by you if you had a mote of knowledge in the science of memory.

Your supporting information, I suspect, comes from "The Courage to Heal," nuts like Colin Ross or Bennett Braun, or other garbage passing as research.

So DO you believe in satanic ritual abuse? C'mon, tell the truth. I know you don't admit it publicly, except to other believers.

[IndianaGreen]

103. I'll cite to you the McMartin Day Care "child abuse" case

and you better do some reading on the cognitive research done on short term memory. You will be amazed to find out how easily false memories are able to take hold.

[Megahurtz]

135. FYI.....

The outcome of the McMartin Preschool case was a sham
(in other words I wouldn't use that lame case for an example)

Anyway, it's kind of bizzare that people are accusing Nuns of sexual abuse. I had quite a few years in Catholic School and knew some whacky:crazy: Nuns, but I find it hard to believe that there was sexual abuse by Nuns, especially on a large scale.

[MichiganVote]

18. I think you need to define what your understanding of "recovered"

memory is. Factually, ethical clinicians work everyday to assist clients to retrieve memories or memory sequences that are critical to their well being. Not all of the content is sexual and the use of hypnosis is minimal in comparison to other techniques. Any qualified therapist who cares about their client could be called "overzealous". How does excitement for a client and their progress translate into unethical and incompetant?

Since you mentioned evidence that "recovered memory" is not true, where is it?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichiganVote]

67. No thanks. I don't do research for posters. Google is your friend.

Since you won't cough up what your basis is for believeing what you do, I'll assume your opinion is based on myth and innuendo. As to my educational status, suffice it to say I was paid good money to do good work. And I did it and my client's lives improved.

Any Masters level clinician is trained in the stat's behind research...if you knew anything about good, ethical therapy you would know that. As you are seemingly touchy, there is not point in discussion.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[MichiganVote]

91. Wow. You're really into this. Ok. Correct my spelling, grammer, whatever.

You still haven't cited your source.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

23. "Repressed Memories" sounds like Freudian nonsense to me.

This sounds like it comes from the same school of psycology that says that everyone has repressed urges to commit incest and whatnot.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[woo me with science]

48. Nope, just someone who isn't easily taken in by nonsense. nt

[Odin2005]

109. Somebody apparently didn't like what I said!

:rofl:

[bettyellen]

119. more often the nun/ orders have admitted abuse offered reparations..the OP

is deceptive. for the most part this ain;t about recovered memories, it;s about delayed reporting.
very different.

[jimshoes]

4. A lot of the nuns I went through grade school

with had a mean streak in them a mile wide, but sex with any of them even before knowing what it was. Yikes!111 The youngsters among them were 60ish. (actually there were one or two younger ones but they were the exception)

[LibDemAlways]

5. If all of the now very elderly nuns who

routinely abused children back in the 50s and 60s - not sexually - but physically and verbally, were brought to trial and convicted - the current women's prison system couldn't hold them all.

My husband had a nun in the 5th grade who'd respond to an incorrent answer with a tennis ball to the head - and she was a very accurate shot. Others were never without their trusty ruler, used for administering a crack across the hands or back or whatever body part was closest.

The sexual abuse doesn't surprise me. These were very warped people.

[pnwmom]

7. Public school teachers also mistreated students.

I remember a third grade teacher who shook kids so hard they looked like they were having whiplash, and a fifth grade public school teacher who had a paddle hung up at the front of the classroom. (And would use it.)

I went to a Catholic school later though, and the nuns were WONDERFUL. A breath of fresh air.

[LibDemAlways]

9. I had an 8th grade public school teacher who'd

hit misbehaving boys, so I'm well aware that corporal punishment was once doled out in public schools as well. The difference, I think, is that the nuns were representing the church and were supposed to be role models of Catholic/Christian behavior. The ones my husband encountered in school and I encountered in CCD classes had a nasty cruel streak that left a very sour impression. You were fortunate to have had a different experience.

[pnwmom]

15. My mother thought that some orders were nicer than others -- she

had experienced both -- and she made sure I went to the school with the nicer ones!

I agree with you that the hypocrisy factor is worse when a "religious" person is involved in any kind of abuse. I was just uncomfortable with the idea that most nuns were mean, because the ones I knew certainly were not.

[NashVegas]

130. It's Worse Than That

In Catholic schools, clergy members are presented as your moral authorities. They're *always right.*

The luckier ones learn to despise authority early, I guess. As messed up as my life has been, I wouldn't want to imagine what it would have been like if I haden't rebelled.

[elehhhhna]

17. The only teacher I ever saw abuse a kid was an Ex-nun

He was having a petite mal seizure. She smacked him with a ruler, several times.

[tblue37]

20. In one classsroom in our junior high,

a huge roll-up chart of the periodic table was kept pulled down over the blackboard at all times, to cover the hole where the teacher put the kid's head through it. This happened in the early 1960s.

Teachers used to beat the crap out of kids. Not all teachers. Not everywhere. But a larger number (and more severely) than many people would be comfortable knowing.

[pnwmom]

22. It's still legal in a number of states. There was a Supreme Court case

that went to the issue of corporal punishment in schools, and the court upheld the right of states to allow it -- even though in that particular case the nine year old girl who was being paddled had her arm BROKEN in the process.

This was a while back, but I've never heard that it was overturned.

[OzarkDem]

30. I recall it, too

One public school teacher who slammed a student's head repeatedly into the block concrete wall. I told my mom about it, who called the student's mom. All hell broke loose and I was berated by the teacher for half an hour in front of the class.

She should have lost her job.

Years later, my own son only lasted 2 years in Catholic school before I pulled him out because of abusive practices by the nuns.

I have zero tolerance for teachers who abuse their power and exploit, humiliate or abuse students. They're a problem in both public and private school systems, probably because they spend too much time with children and not enough time working with other adults. They lose perspective on how adults should behave.

[tblue37]

35. The junior high where the hole was in the blackboard

was actually a public school. It used to be assumed that pretty much any adult in a position of authority had the right to beat a child.

(The fundies want desperately to bring back that notion, of course.)

Because of such abuses, we have swung too far in the opposite direction now, and some people believe it is abusive even to use red ink to correct student tests and papers.

But if there had not been so much real physical, verbal, and psychological abuse of children in our schools, there would not have been such an extreme over-reaction against any sort of correction or authority in the schools today.

In some schools. In many places, of course, kids are still abused.

[pnwmom]

49. It might be because they've lost perspective, or

it might be that schools have been places where people could exercise unhealthy power over other people.

[HockeyMom]

104. Kid in my school jumped out a 3rd floor class window,

after being taken to the auditorium stage by the Mother Superior, and in front of the entire school, she pulled down his pants, put him across her lap, and spanked the living daylights out of him. Fortunately, he fell on top of a car rather than under one.

Needless to say, he never came back to that school. I am sure if this had happened today, there would have been a major lawsuit and headline news.

Physical AND psychological abuse.

[LibDemAlways]

110. What a horrible story. That woman clearly had

no business being around children, much less being in a position of authority over them. I shudder to think of the emotional baggage that poor victim carried away from the experience.

[Divine Discontent]

36. were you in my 5th grade math class???

my math teach picked me up and threw like a person in a car wreck onto the desk of a girl in my class. he was very mean on certain days, and on one of those days I asked him a question after a quiz and he smarted off very rudely and I turned around and childishly made a face and shook my head, he knew it and came and attacked me. he was nice then totally unstable... horrible. he quit teaching a few years later and yes, my mom let him off the hook when he balled, but he did it once more to another student.

www.cafepress/warisprofitable <<<--- check it out! top 06 08 Pro Dem stickers & funny antibush

[pnwmom]

51. I never thought about telling my parents about the nasty teachers.

Maybe because I was one of the compliant kids. But when you're a kid, it often doesn't occur to you to complain about things. Your parents have sent you to this school, everyone goes to this school, so you think that this is just the way school must be.

[Southsideirish]

81. Well said. My mom had no love for nuns, either, as the ones she knew

in Ireland and England were definitely mean as snakes - even to a little orphan girl as she was but if you wanted to send your kids to Catholic schools - the nuns were what you got -like them or not and we didn't like them at all!

[Divine Discontent]

134. true true....

esp. if you're younger, you just accept how things are at the school as what life is like. the older I got, the more I rebelled about what was wrong, that occured at about the time of 11 for me... if I was 7 I might not have been able to tell my parents, who knows.



www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- my designs on stickers!

[MichiganVote]

43. The difference between public school teachers who abuse children

and abuse by nuns is that children are taught that nuns represent the holiness of God. As such, children who are abused by religious figures feel rejected by God and thereby experience greater guilt.

[Whoa_Nelly]

46. Greater guilt?

Abused by anyone as a child is total rejection of the child by self. God or not, there is no "greater guilt". It is ALL so horribly demenaing. Sexual abuse/molestation robs a child of their childhood, their initial belief in self.

There is not contest between those who have been abused and those abused by people of god. It's ALL equally bad and incapcitating for each and every child.

[MichiganVote]

71. "greater guilt" in terms of their belief system or that of their family.

Specifically, the issue of sin.

[Whoa_Nelly]

88. Sorry, but "greater guilt" in terms of sin just doesn't fly with me

Abuse, sexual, physical and/or verbal destrys a child's concept of self period. There is no comparison of nonreligious to religious attributes. It's all bad no matter what the belief system is.

Do I know what I'm talking about here? Yup...sure do. And, no, I won't go into details, but suffice it to say it has affected my life and my family's life for generations. Thankfully, those who committed the abuses are dead, and those who are now suffering the repercussions of abuse, (including me), have become determined to not let it ever happen again within the family, or to anyone else outside the family. As I always told my son...bad behavior is no secret. Those who are known to abuse are not allowed secrecy or a pass on any incident.

[MichiganVote]

89. I am not in disagreement with you about abuse and its devastation

I am merely pointing out what survivors of clergy abuse report about the specifics of their feelings and why---and they have consistently reported such to me. But, whatever.

[NashVegas]

131. Having Been Repeatedly Abused By Both Clergy And An Average Pedophile

My experience was the priest business was far, far more difficult to accept, deal with, and move on.

I never, ever forgot about the average Chester Molester, even as a little kid I could keep rational about it. The priest business, I managed to go a full five years without ever once thinking about and when it did pop back up (see the discussion above), on its own, it was dreadful.

Imagine being a teenager walking around with the (very misguided, obviously) notion that you tempted someone who you were taught was holy into sin. Huge mindfuck. That's relevant because kids in Catholic schools have certain things drilled into their heads on a daily basis. Keep in mind the old Jesuit saying, "give me a child for seven years, and he'll be mine for life." At one point in my life I thought I was Eve, Jezebel, Salome, Delilah and Lot's wife all rolled into one. At others, I just thought I was damned.


I'm not trying to minimize what you and your family have gone through, all abuse is a messed up thing that should never have to happen, not to anyone. You seem to be pointing towards incest. That's the one form of child abuse I was lucky enough not to have first-hand knowledge of.

[bitchkitty]

73. My 4th grade teacher would

have the teacher in the next classroom come over to watch, and had a ritual where she'd wallop the unlucky boy's ass with a belt, put the belt away in a drawer, take out a coin and give it to the witness teacher and thank her. It freaked me out then and it still occupies my mind now and again, 40 years later.

[JNelson6563]

74. I too had similar experience

with the nuns. They were very kind. My years at Catholic school were actually very pleasant.

Julie

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Hell, I went to Catholic School K-4 in the 80-90s

I was forced to become right-handed and I was hit by nuns. I was ridiculed by nuns for having a slight speech impediment. I HATED Catholic school and to this day...

Nuns freak me out. I can't function like a normal adult around nuns. I start stuttering and shit. I have no fear of priests though.

[pnwmom]

52. I'm curious about what part of the country you lived in during that

time. There are hardly any nuns left in teaching! My daughter went to kindergarten at a parochial school in the 80's, but there was only one nun in the school even then.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. St. Francis Academy in Union City, NJ

Almost all nuns at the time, although I did have a lay teacher for 4th grade. My school was also very diverse. We even had Islamic kids in the class. The public schools were pretty rough, so most people who could afford it sent their kid to Catholic school.

[pnwmom]

63. The public schools probably were rough, but it sounds like

you had it even rougher. . . out of the frying pan, into the fire, as they say.

I'm glad you survived.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. They were rough. My mom actually taught at the public school down

the block. Of course, I was sent to Catholic school because of the public school kids, but who did I play with outside of school? The public school kids that lived on my street. My sister briefly went to a different Catholic school once we moved to the suburbs and that school had no nuns, no corporal punishment. I guess I just got "lucky."

Of course, my mom likes to tell the story that (I don't remember this) she went in for parents' night and the evil nun told her that I was the first 5 year old that ever stared her down and told her she was wrong. Oh and in 4th grade, my class broke a nun. Man, we got in a lot of trouble for breaking that nun.

[pnwmom]

65. Okay, I'll bite. How exactly do you break a nun?

[SemperEadem]

72. when I was in kindergarten...

I attended a Catholic school... since my parents put me in pre-school (which was in a Presbyterian church!! OMG!! I didn't understand the irony of that until I was back in my hometown visiting and happened to drive by the church a few years ago), I learned to read and write before I entered kindergarten. In the first grade, since I could read better than my classmates, I read ahead in my 'Dick and Jane' primer. When called upon to read, I didn't know how far back everyone else was and the nun proceeded to assault me --hitting me on the top of my head with her book. Her name was Sister Alice Marie and not long after that, she was removed from the classroom and in her place, a nun who was far nicer, far calmer than that psycho-bitch.

From that day, I've hated nuns--and had to tolerate them for the 12 years of schooling I went through. I don't put it past a one of them to have done worse. Granted, there are some who were cool, but my experience with that one tainted my view of them. I won't apologize to anyone for it, either.

[mariema]

86. Me, too!

I can't believe it, I went thru almost the exact same experience! In the late '50s, in first grade I read the whole primer within the first week and the nun went berserk on me! It made me feel like I was a freak because I enjoyed reading so much. It also taught me to keep my head down and not bring attention to myself. It wasn't until the third grade that I had a nun who gave me encouragement and guidance.

The one thing I noticed about most of the abusive nuns was that they seemed to pick on the "handsome" boys the most. We had one kid who was so good looking he was whacked at least once a day with a ruler by Sister Celeste. I remember her beating him one time, hitting him over and over while she screamed at him:" You--think--you're--so--smart!--You--think--you--are--so--cute!" I have never forgotten that, it is still a very vivid memory. Can you imagine what that poor kid remembers?

[pnwmom]

105. When I was in third grade in public school, the boy I remember being

the target of our third grade teacher was the smartest boy in the class. And the cutest. As I recall, our other teachers always liked him, but not her. She would shake him till his head whipped back and forth.

[LibDemAlways]

87. I attended a public school kindergarten with a kind,

pleasant teacher who created a warm and nurturing classroom environment. The following year my mom decided I should be in Catholic school. What a difference. The stern old nun couldn't be bothered to learn my name and called me "blondie." She demanded total silence in the classroom and warned us not to "move a muscle" or she'd be down the aisle with her pointer to be poked or swatted. I hated it. I came home in tears after the first day. At the end of the week I told my parents I wasn't going back, and if they tried to force me, I'd run away and come home - and I meant it. My dad saw the writing on the wall, and, despite my mother's protests, got me the hell out of there and back into public school.

My husband, however, endured eight years of it, and it left some pretty deep scars.

[eridani]

123. Based on my experience of 16 years of Catholic education--

--the physical and emotional abuse cases outnumber sexual incidents by about 200/1.

[acmavm]

8. As jaded as I am when it comes to the Catholic Church I gotta say

none of the nuns I ever knew would have done anything like that. They were do heavily AGAINST anything sexual that it was pathological. And I went to Catholic grade schools and a girls Catholic boarding school for high school.

In fact, maybe some of those women wouldn't have been so downright mean spirited and narrowminded if they ever tried it.

Not saying that it never happened. But it took a special kind of woman to go into the convent.

[ecoalex]

12. Nuns marry jesus, have the ring and all

They like preists take a vow of chastity, no sex whatsoever.Take a 20+ yr old woman denying her sexuality , and you get abused kids. I knew my nuns to be pathological beaters, they were sadists.Many a yard stick was broken over my back, shoulders, as I yelled frustrated woman at her.I was then sent to Mother Superior.There is a special on Tv showing soon about nun brutality.

[acmavm]

16. Oh I agree about the physical rough stuff. I was the recipient of many

a thumpin' on the head. Them women had some really hard knuckles.

There were twin boys in my third grade class. Richard and Robert. Richard was dark haired and Robert was real blond, white blond. Anyway, Sr. Mary Gabriel wouldn't let poor Richard go to the bathroom. I don't know why, it was no skin off her nose. It was not a big deal, but she just would not let that poor kid go. Long story short, Richard peed his pants. That woman made him keep newspapers under his desk for the entire rest of the year. She would not, not, not, let that poor kid forget. Or any of us.

That is one piece of sadistic behavior that scarred all of us. Not as much as I'm sure it did poor Richard. But it left all of us with some really bad feelings against nuns and Catholic school.

[Kingofalldems]

14. I found the nuns I had to be dedicated teachers

Never got hit once. Strict discipline for sure, but sexual abuse? If it happened I'm sure it wasn't widespread.

[World Traveller]

24. Nuns Who Taught Me Were Dedicated Teachers

I don't post too much, but I have to wade in on this one. I attended 12 years of Catholic schools in the 50's and 60's and almost all/ 95% of my teachers were nuns. I think in many ways the priests and nuns were the idealists of that era, dedicating their lives to God and society in a way that was socially acceptable at that time.

I find these allegations hard to believe. I spent all my childhood around nuns and never saw or heard of anything remotely perverse.

In grammar school, the nuns taught classrooms of 30-40 children. I RARELY saw anyone hit, actually only ONCE. I saw 7th grade nun slapping this poor, quiet boy just over from Ireland who seemed to annoy her, but that was it... And I liked her, she was really a great teacher most of the time, talked about world events, politics, had us do scrapbooks on the Kennedy Cabinet... Who knows why she picked on that boy... Maybe, like some Moms and Dads, she just lost it with that kid.

The rest of grammar schoold nuns were, well, TEACHERs, trying to keep our attention and maintain order. Teaching was their lives and most were very good at it.

The nuns who taught my high school, School Sisters of St Francis, were the greatest. They marched for civil rights in 1963, horrifying many of the parents, including mine. They experimented with the latest educational advances of the times, including a track system that enabled me to take what they called Enriched classes in many subjects. They challenged us to be the best we could be, in whatever we were good at.

OK, yes, in some ways they were old-fashioned (I graducated in 1966). They wanted to make sure we grew up into upstanding Catholic mothers and made it clear sex was only for after marriage. But, then, our parents said the same things.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Mine ran the gamut, I think

Just like any other group of people. (No sexual abuse as far as I know, though!) Some were wonderful people and good teachers. Some were most definitely neither of those things.

Same thing with the lay teachers I had though.

[Submariner]

33. A world apart

In Boston I too attended 12 years of Catholic schools in the 50's and 60's and 100% of my teachers were nuns. I think one of my primary problems with nuns was that I did not compare well to my uncle in the seminary at the time who went through the school system years earlier. I guess because I was a class clown type and not a pious little boy I was fair game to get pestered by these cretans.

The corporal punishment was fierce. I had my knuckles slapped repeatedly in the 3rd/4th grade for being a lefty, using "satan's" hand.

I had gum put in my hair if I was caught chewing it. My wrists would be bound behind me to the hair slats so when the nun slapped me I could not protect my face.

One quiet nice guy Eddie had two alcoholics for parents and they did not take care of him well. He had poor posture (sort of hunched over at the shoulders), visible decay on his teeth, old unfit clothing, dandruff), the poor guy just wasn't parented well. A nun told him to stand up at his desk in a class of about 25 and she berated him for about 2 minutes. She told him he was a slob, had poor hygiene and needed to clean himself better, and that he should stand up straight. After thoroughly mortifying this poor kid she had him sit down to the berating stares prevalent among 8th graders.

The Eddie incident happened in 1960 and I can remember it as clear as a bell today as if it happened yesterday. I'm sure Eddie remembered it too right up to the time he was shot dead in Viet Nam 8 years later.

One nun at Matignon High in Cambridge smacked my sister across the mouth and drew blood.

I could burn up tons of bandwidth detailing the atrocities I witnessed by nuns, but in the end it just gets my blood pressure up. Needles to say you had a totally different experience with nuns than many others did, and good for you, you lucked out.

I'm not sure I would stop to help a nun with a flat tire on the highway. On second thought, I wouldn't stop.

[MichiganVote]

38. Both eddie and all you other kids were abused by that nun that day

[pnwmom]

54. As I said, my mother had had experience with nasty nuns, so I

always have known they were out there. But I didn't experience them myself.

[smokey nj]

94. Submariner.......

My Catholic school experience was similar to yours. I attended in the 70's and 80's, so I didn't experience the physical abuse, but I remember the public humiliation techniques all too well. When I heard that a my 4th grade teacher, Sr. Theodosia, had died, I wanted to find her grave so I could dance on it. I consider myself a SURVIVOR of Catholic school.

[pnwmom]

53. Thanks for your post, World Traveller.

And welcome to DU!

:)

[laundry_queen]

28. I don't doubt

that someone could come up with a sexual abuse case against a nun - like any population there are bound to be some sociopaths in it.
My mom's experience with nuns (school in the 50s/60s) was mixed. For the most part, they were kind, if strict. She did have one teacher in 6th grade that wouldn't let the boys sit next to the girls. They weren't allowed to talk to each other, or even look at each other. Girls had to wear dresses to school. Once my mom stood next to a boy during recess and back in class the nun ridiculed her for having 'unpure' thoughts. My mom says that someone was having unpure thoughts and it sure as heck wasn't her 11 year old self!! "Dirty old nun" my mom said. lol.
Said nun also flunked the whole class that year save 3 kids.
Very strange.
However my mom had other wonderful nun/teachers that she credits with helping her through high school.
I do think this actually may be a case of 'bad apples'.

[PCIntern]

29. An acquaintance of mine was involved in the Philly

scandal as an investigator. He once said that if what the nuns were doing got out, it would make the priest scandals look relatively inconsequential. He would not elaborate further, but I have an imagination.

[ruggerson]

31. Does this mean Sally Field is going to San Quentin?

[PCIntern]

32. Sr. Bertrille...

She's lookin' pretty good lately on that commercial for calcium enhancer or whatever. She's actually gotten better looking as she's aged.

I think that time with Burt Reynolds made her hot...

But I digress...

[woo me with science]

55. ROFL

That would be "Sybil" Bertrille.

[KurtNYC]

100. But once the breeze blows strongly enough....... she's gone!

[pitohui]

34. "even now decades later?"

i guess i am not interested in tying up courts w. allegations of something that happened decades ago in the 50s and 60s and for which there is no shred of evidence except a "recovered" memory

there's gold in the vatican and people hearing abt others getting lots of $$$ are joining in on the gold rush, in my personal view

if it was all that traumatic, maybe they should have said something to somebody 40 years ago

seems like you can make up anything abt anybody these days and even if you have no proof, you can say, "my bad, i just now remembered" and some lawyer will take the case

[MichiganVote]

37. I can understand your rant...

What I can't understand is how or why you believe you have the power to prevent a person from seeking justice b/c you are disinterested, b/c the courts should be reserved for the drug cases that "tye up" the legal system daily or b/c in your opinion, there is no shred of evidence. The process of court procedures is to present evidence and the system itself then proceeds or not, as the case may be.

To suggest, and you do, that victims of clerical abuse are gold diggers is both ridiculous and sad. The average civil suit last 2-5 years and is very difficult for victims to do. Anyone who thinks a civil suit for damages is a quick buck would be sorely disappointed. Moreover, it is not the business of a person such as yourself to determine the validity or extent of trauma. That is the job of professionals.

I hope you have the good sense to excuse yourself from any jury pool that is related to sexual abuse. Your remarks are not only ignorant, they are cold and lacking in any compassion. Factually, most cases of sexual abuse do not rely on recovered memories. That is a media myth perpetuated by people like yourself who are unaware of what is really going on.

Good luck. I hope you are treated with more compassion and understanding than you are willing to show others when you somehow hit a rough patch in life.

[pnwmom]

56. Maybe you missed this, but one of the cases in the OP is related to

"recovered memory." The attorney wants to get the statute of limitations waived.

[pitohui]

57. i am a strong supporter of the statute of limitations

i think you got it, pnwmom

a "recovered memory" with no physical evidence whatsoever that a damn thing happened is a ridiculous excuse for trying to bring suit against the church at this late date

unfortunately publicity of other cases where people got big pay-offs brings out all the gold-seekers, during the michael jackson trial a man in new orleans said he was watching teevee and suddenly "recovered" a memory of being molested by jackson

oh come on

and the worst of it was that the court fined jackson $10,000 for not showing up to answer this ridiculous complaint

i think i'd throw up my hands and move to dubai too! if you have, someone else is going to "recover" some memory of why they should get

[woo me with science]

60. Missouri Supreme Court has just opened the door to this garbage, too.

Trying people based on repressed memories. I encourage anyone who is concerned about this issue to write to their representatives and the media outlets. These charlatans have no problem with turning our courts into the Salem witch hunts.

Unfortunately, both a new version of "Sybil" for theaters and a re-release of the 1977 TV movie with Sally Field are due out this June. Brace yourself for a flood of new claims.

[pnwmom]

62. I agree that we have to have a statute of limitations.

In some of these cases, the person accused is dead! How is the Church supposed to defend itself against a complaint regarding an incident forty years ago involving a dead nun and a recovered memory victim?

I think some of these people will stop when they realize that most orders of nuns are not "deep pockets." Most of them are barely limping along, because the nuns worked for tiny salaries at the schools, and the Church doesn't provide them with retirement benefits.

That's a crime, in my book.

[dailykoff]

61. McMartin Preschool redux.

Can't wait to start hearing about satanic rituals in underground caverns.

[Roberta]

66. Sexual Abuse - Nuns...What about NON Nuns?

How can one group of people be focused on for such abuse.  My
mother would not let me talk to her while I was growing up so
I did not get to discuss the dirty old men I saw in the
allies, but never saw any dirty old women, 40's and 50's. 
Catholic religion was one strong force in my life even though
I was not Catholic, I lived around nuns, priests and beautiful
churches. Never was one of them ever less than a perfect angel
to me.  Maybe some students resented the physical abuse, I
would not have allowed that for my children and would have
taken them out of the school. So, why did parents allow such
abuse?  My own sister abused my child and I learned much too
late. Who expects a God-fearing and loving person to
physically hit or sexually abuse a child.  We just were not
looking for it. So now we know.

Yes, beyond statute of limitations now, so suck it up and go
on, just don't let it happen to your grandchildren whether
they are catholic or whatever.

[Bridget Burke]

70. "Alleged recovered memory" ?

Too bad the Little Gray Men can't be served subpoenas. They could be sued for all that "probing" the Abductees must endure.

[woo me with science]

84. Indeed. nt

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

77. "weird sadomasochistic imagery" won't hold up in a Court of Law....

It's even less valid than "recovered memory."

[Jed Dilligan]

80. I don't really care about the law cases

I just find it hard to believe that people don't think nuns molest kids.

[pnwmom]

102. It's not that they never did. It's certainly possible there were offenders

But the circumstances of their lives would have made it a lot less likely. Even if they had the "motive" they lacked the "opportunity."

Priests had offices, where they could see people privately. Nuns who dealt with children, for the most part, had classrooms, where anything they did was in front of 30 other children. They didn't have private offices.

Similarly, priests lived in rectories. At small parishes they might be the only priest there. Even if there was another priest, there was privacy, and independence of action.

Nuns lived in convents. No one was allowed in the convent besides the nuns. Also, the nuns lives were much more controlled by rules and schedules. It would have been much harder for a nun, living that kind of life, to find the opportunity to molest a child, even if she wanted to.

[bettyellen]

106. wrong, nuns can and do have offices. and i have been in a convent too.

11 years of catholic school here, the nuns ran the school, called the shots. priests did mass and afterschool group things more.
been alone with nuns manys a time. much more so than priests. full disclosure, have a family with clergy of all kinds and i am named after a nun,. all good people.
i have no idea about these cases, but your post may be true of one school you know of, but it certainly isn't accurate regarding how all catholic schools are/ were run. nope, not at all.

[LostinVA]

111. I know a slew of Catholics, present and ex (including myself)

With many years of Catholic school under their belts in the 60s-present time. Most taught by nuins... and I don't know one who was mistreated by a Sister... sexually, mentally, emotionally, etc. Including me. And trust me, no love is lost between me and the Church.

Maybe certain dioceses or orders allowed certain things? I don't know....

I also tend not to believe the bulk of these claims, because even though women can be child molesters, it is (thankfully) rare. I also think there's enough evidence to show that repressed memories claims are often hogwash. A quick way for a shyster therapist to make money and a name for themselves.

[bettyellen]

113. we had some evil abusive nuns, and some wonderful ones, too.

never heard any allegations of sexual abuse, but i haven't been in touch w/anyone since i graduated.
in general, teens and young adults don;t make these charges. it's been the rule that they come out when the victim is middle aged.
the statue of limitations is leading some to claim they have "reprocessed" - reconsidered the incident and realized it is a crime. they mention many accusations and only one claiming she had forgotten the abuse- and that seems to have nothing to do with any analyst "recovering memories".
looks like all these people so upset here never read the article. most of these women always knew they were abused, they just didn't talk about it.

[pnwmom]

115. Who are the people who are so upset?

I'm not. I just think that some caution is called for, especially when the claims involve dead alleged molesters, recovered memories (as mentioned in the OP) and events that occurred decades ago.

[bettyellen]

118. people freaking out upthread assuming it's like the mc martin/ hypnosis

recovered memory hysteria stuff. (not you) it's not like that at all. the longer article (not the UPI) is much clearer, this isn't a mass hysteria/ hypnotically induced situation. there are cultural and organizational reasons why there's a backlog. it's an odd situation, for sure.
in some cases, the orders or nuns have admitted guilt and made (small) reparations. reading this thread, you'd think it was total BS.

[pnwmom]

121. Clearly, several of the women in the article had valid claims.

But I question their statement that all they cared about was protecting other children from being victimized. The average nun these days is well into her 60's and there are fewer and fewer of them in schools. There will always be some adults who will molest children, but I don't think we're at high risk from nuns anymore . . . or that we ever were -- at least not any more than from other people who are in positions of trust.

I also don't think it's realistic to expect the church to go out and seek potential victims from several decades ago.

[bettyellen]

122. yep, and it disturbed me the knee jerk reaction as if it was all made up

very strange. people go from kids never lie, to memory can;t be trusted to ??? at any rate, the OP is misleading.
it's interesting aside from the social/ women being harder to prosecute thing, the fact that you can't sue the church-only the smaller orders the nuns belong to- is another factor inhibiting prosecution. no super deep pockets here. i saw a person or two assumed this was copycat suing the church, and again, it's quite the opposite- if it was the church, lawyers woulda been pushing these claims earlier. interesting.

[pnwmom]

127. No, you're right. They have super shallow pockets.

Most orders are barely limping along now without younger nuns to support the older ones with their salaries.

[bettyellen]

128. isn't it funny how the structure seemed to mirror

secular life in the differences between the sexes. women taking care of the kids, ending up with nothing to show for it.
the men getting to be leaders, do the important and showy stuff like mass, (and fun stuff like the recreational activities) backed by a wealthy and powerful organization. i wonder what the rationale was to keep nuns out of the church financially. sheesh, that's odd.
my aunt is heartbroken that no one wants to be a nun anymore. she keeps telling me, it's never too late to join up. LOL.
i never had the heart to tell her i'm an atheist.

[pnwmom]

129. Orders of brothers are also disconnected financially, as are orders of

priests. (Who I understand have also been harder to prosecute.) But diocesan priests are the responsibility of their diocese.

[pnwmom]

114. Did the average teaching nun have an office? Like the average priest?

[bettyellen]

117. none of the priest had offices that i recall. they had that back of the

church area they + the altar boys used to prep for masses. the monsignor had an office in the rectory. very few priest taught.
some nuns had offices, some didn;t. but kids went into both the convent and the rectory- a lot of the preist and nuns worked out of there own private rooms. that was for groups or activities and stuff.
i remember, the guidance nun, the music nun and another one (some dept head- i think math?) alll had offices in grade school. grade school was maybe 6-7 nuns for every priest. a little less than 1/2 the teachers were clergy. maybe 40%.
high school, we had many more lay teachers, and preists were more common. for the life of me, i can't remember anyone's office except an evil social studies teacher- she was the dept head- she had an office. she lectured me because i waaay flunked a test. yes, we were alone in her office. i think in both cases, only dept heads had offices, and teachers had cubes or "lounges" oh yeah, the AV head had an office, he was a priest. i always got the idea priest thought they were too good to work with kids, they really stuck the nuns with us!
did you read the articles, it;'s not about going to a shrink and coming back with a recovered memory, not by along shot. the OP is kinda deceptive that way.

[pnwmom]

124. I read the articles, and I agree that several of the woman had valid

claims. But the OP did mention another case where they were trying to get the statute of limitations waived, on the basis of recovered memories.

I'm sure some nuns did bad things, just like some priests and ministers, just like any group of people with access to children. I just don't think that nuns were particularly evil or bent on torturing children.

I also think that the standards in our society for what constitutes abuse of children have changed dramatically over the last 50 years -- and I'm grateful for that. Too many of us were afraid of the adults that were supposed to be our care-givers.

[Jed Dilligan]

108. My grandmother grew up in a Catholic orphanage

Run by nuns. There was a lot of abuse though she never mentioned any sexual side to it. There was plenty of opportunity, though, since the nuns basically lived with the kids who had no other adults to supervise them.

[pnwmom]

116. You're right. An orphanage is the kind of place that would

have afforded more opportunities.

Back in your grandmother's day, however, "normal" discipline by parents would be considered abusive today. Even when I was growing up the standards were completely different. Lots of kids were afraid of their fathers. (Many probably still are, but at least social institutions no longer back up the behavior of abusive parents.)

[patcox2]

78. "recovered memory?" Total crap.

The plaintiffs bar marches forward.

[bettyellen]

112. there's one mention of recovered memory out of 6-7 cases profiled....

so, what do you say now?
the only one who said she had a recovered memory said it came back to her when her husband snuck up on her.
none of it seems to be this psychology/ hypnosis stuff everyone imagines it implies. the women who say they were victimised sound pretty credible to me, but i get the feeling many didn't bother looking.

[slackmaster]

79. Were they Nuns In Leather or just plain old nuns?

Someone please post pics.

[JudyM]

97. LOL! Nuns in chaps. Now there's an image. n/t

[madmusic]

85. New evidence shows false memories can be created

'I tawt I taw' a bunny wabbit at Disneyland; New evidence shows false memories can be created

About one-third of the people who were exposed to a fake print advertisement that described a visit to Disneyland and how they met and shook hands with Bugs Bunny later said they remembered or knew the event happened to them.

The scenario described in the ad never occurred because Bugs Bunny is a Warner Bros. cartoon character and wouldn't be featured in any Walt Disney Co. property, according to University of Washington memory researchers Jacquie Pickrell and Elizabeth Loftus. Pickrell will make two presentations on the topic at the annual meeting of the American Psychological Society (APS) on Sunday (June 17) in Toronto and at a satellite session of the Society for Applied Research in Memory and Cognition in Kingston, Ontario, on Wednesday.

"The frightening thing about this study is that it suggests how easily a false memory can be created," said Pickrell, UW psychology doctoral student.

"It's not only people who go to a therapist who might implant a false memory or those who witness an accident and whose memory can be distorted who can have a false memory. Memory is very vulnerable and malleable. People are not always aware of the choices they make. This study shows the power of subtle association changes on memory."

more:

http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/2001archive/06-01archive/k061101.html

[bettyellen]

107. it makes no distinction between those with no memory and those with

false memory which is really odd. certain people feel they "know" they saw Bugs.... but have no memory of it. yet they are lumped with the memory people.

[dailykoff]

125. "Reluctance of attorneys," right.

Whatever the merits of these allegations, if they happened 40 years ago, the plaintiffs are in their 60s and the defendants are in their 80s or dead. The awards will come out of whatever pitiful retirement fund their orders might have or if they're like most and have none they'll have to sell their convents. Apparently they're not eligible for social security either.

So who benefits? The attorneys. I know this because the attorney who put Geoghan in jail a few years back (where he was murdered within weeks) won a "trial attorney of the year" award for pioneering the "innovative" strategy he developed for sucking cash out of parish poorboxes.

[formercia]

132. Nasty Habits

or a movie by that name......

[knitter4democracy]

136. I heard of a nun raped by a priest to keep quiet.

She found out something and was going to go public with it, and someone higher up (no one knows who) sent a priest to rape her in her cell and beat the crap out of her.

Nuns have often been the victims in this kind of thing, too. Not all nuns are saints, and I'm sure that some have hurt kids, at least emotionally, but I think it's too easy to jump on a bandwagon and blame all nuns for all bad things.

Disclaimer: I'm not Catholic, but I taught in two different Catholic schools for three year, one of which was run by nuns. I thought they were all good, dedicated teachers, and it was an honor to work with them.

[dailykoff]

137. You're thinking of the Da Vinci Code.

Just kidding. Incidentally the movie is better than the book but they're both 100% malarkey.

:)

[knitter4democracy]

138. Never read that, actually.

I just never was all that interested in it. Opus Dei is all too real for me. I taught with two teachers the group pressured the school into firing only to lose the battle with the school's board and a whole slew of angry parents. The teachers were reinstated, as they should've been, and Opus Dei was constantly trying to get a foothold in the school ever after that. One teacher I taught with was let go a couple of years after I left when it came out that he was a member and teaching their beliefs in his religion classes and not the approved curriculum.

Church politics can be quite scary.

[hedgehog]

139. We're talking about a very large, very heterogeneous group of women here.

Attitudes did vary from order to order and even from convent to convent. Many posts discuss physical abuse in the classroom. I can testify to that myself, but I also saw abuse from lay teachers. Does that mean that all teachers are abusers?

What time period are we discussing, the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's? It has to be said that Vatican II in the 60's was a watershed event. Before then many young women were coerced into the convent who didn't belong there. Sometime the coercion was spiritual (God is calling you and if you don't want to go that means you are unwilling to bend to God's Will). Hard to believe now, but sometimes the coercion was economic. For many girls of 17 or 18, the convent was the only place to go to ensure a roof over their heads. (Think back to the teens, 20's, 30's, even the 40's)Once there, the only options were teaching or nursing. A lot of the orders practiced strict humiliating controls over every aspect of these women's lives. It was the ultimate expression of male chauvinism. I'm not justifying the bad behavior of a few women. I still suffer the consequences every day myself. However, I can understand how someone who was trapped in every way herself took it out on the only people with less power than herself. Imagine yourself trapped day after day in a job you hated, living with people who gave you no respite, with no way out. Remember, a lot of these women were brainwashed into thinking that God wanted them in the convent and that to leave was the first step straight to hell. Can anyone here claim that you would never have snapped?

When Vatican II hit, a lot of women left the convent and went on to happier lives. Generally speaking, the sisters I've encountered since then have been happy and healthy people. As with any group of people )(doctors, store clerks, musicians, traffic cops etc etc) there still are a few assholes in the group.