Philosopher opposes 'rhythm method'

[deadparrot]

LONDON, June 13 (UPI) -- A British philosopher at the London School of Economics is drawing criticism from abortion opponents by opposing the "rhythm method," a report says.

The New York Times said Luc Bovens argues in the Journal of Medical Ethics that couples who use the rhythm method to avoid pregnancy may be more at risk of producing underdeveloped embryos.

The rhythm method refers to the practice of couples preventing pregnancy by avoiding sex during the woman's most fertile time of the month. If this is correct, he writes, "millions of rhythm method cycles per year globally depend for their success on massive embryonic death," the Times said.

Bovens asserts that those concerned about early embryonic death should be just as worried about the rhythm method as they would be over other forms of contraception.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060613-074921-4395r

[Kagemusha]

1. I don't have much good to say about this so I'll keep this brief.

I think this philosophy is sick. IMVHO.

[JerseygirlCT]

2. Oh yes, but you know, no sperm left behind, right?

I think all this absurd fixation on contraception as evil must date back to early views of conception -- the idea that life existed, complete, in the sperm and that women were mere receptacles.

It seems some, including the Catholic Church, still hold to that idea.

[Sal Minella]

6. The Homunculus, the tiny perfect human already inside the sperm.

eddit, speling.

[Redstone]

3. You know what they call people who use the Rhythm Method, don't you?

Parents.

Redstone

[knitter4democracy]

4. What an idiot.

Embryonic death?! Whatever, dude.

[Xithras]

10. Heh.

My last boss was an ardent and active Catholic who gave me hell when I mentioned that my wife was fixed. He railed on and on that it was "un-natural", and that if we really wanted to avoid kids we should have stuck with the rhythm method. When I shot back with that exact joke, he went into a 10 minute lecture on how well it actually works if you do it "right".

Did I mention that the man has SEVEN children?

[CatholicEdHead]

11. He must cling on to the old accepted myth

that all Encyclials are "infallible", which was the case in the 1950's pre-Vatican II days. That is why many cling on to JPII's writings on this so hard even though the encyclials are not considered infallible.

[Ilsa]

20. It amazes that so many people think a woman's cycle

is perfect from month to month, no variation due to stress, hormone changes related to certain foods and herbs. They think it all works like a clock, no variation, when nothing could be further from the truth for many, many women. And what happens when some other physical sign is mistaken for ovulation? This is so absurd.

[knitter4democracy]

23. We used a similar method to try to get preggers both times.

It took a year for me to get preggers both times. I found that when the books say I'm fertile isn't when my body is, and apparently I can only get pregnant in the early fall (I had three pregnancies, one miscarriage, and they all happened at the beginning of October--very odd).

You're exactly right--there's no way to know how things are perfectly. Even the pill isn't perfect--we're all just too complicated. That's why there are many natural ways to end a pregnancy, I think. There's a reason for those kinds of things.

[Ilsa]

25. I had forgotten about weather!

I got pregnant in May years ago, but miscarried in mid-June after a ten+ day period of 100+ degree heat here in South Texas. We had heat indices around 115-120. Maybe that was a weak embryo, but I am conviced weather played a part in the demise of my pregnancy.

My mom got pregnant four times in the Fall. Four summer babies.

[knitter4democracy]

49. Then I'm not the only one. That's good to know.

The same thing happened to my best friend--three spring babies. I really do think weather has a bigger role to play than we think. I think it has to do with extremes and what our bodies prefer. I prefer colder weather, and I think that, when it starts to get chilly again, my body takes that as a sign to be fertile or something.

I would bet that you're right about that miscarriage. Heat like that just makes me ill (that's why I live in Michigan, and I'm starting to think of moving further north).

[donsu]

30. kick

nt

[AngryOldDem]

34. Exactly right

Myself, I would NEVER rely on the rhythm method. My cycles have been too unpredictable and hormone levels too volatiile to put my trust in it.

That's what a lot of people don't get. If NFP works for you, great. Go for it. But it doesn't for many women, and taking the risk every month just ain't worth it for some of us. Just one more example of how some in authority "think" they understand a woman and her body.

[knitter4democracy]

24. Wow. Seven? That's got to be hard.

I can't imagine how hard that was on his wife. I had to stop with two--just too hard on me and my body, let alone our finances and rest of our lives. I hope it truly was his wife's choice and that he's amazingly helpful at home.

[Xithras]

37. FWIW, I believe it was.

I only met her a few times, but it's my understanding that she wanted a couple more, but he wanted to stop at six. Seven was an "accident". Yep, that rhythym method SURE WORKS GREAT!

If it's worth anything, I've spoken with several women who delivered large families, and they all say it get easier as more are delivered. I know that in my wifes case, our first was an 18 hour labor, the second was an 8 hour labor, and the third was a two hour labor, so personal experience does bear that out. Of course, my wife wasn't willing to see if it got any shorter, and made certain that there'd never be a #4 :)

[knitter4democracy]

50. Mine went the other way.

My second pregnancy was much harder. The pushing was shorter, but the baby was two pounds heavier (gained the same amount of weight, but he was just huge!). All in all, the trend wasn't a good one, so we stopped.

I've heard that larger families are easier, as the older kids can help out more, but I don't know. Both of mine were colicky and constant nursers. It's not like older ones could help with that. Maybe it's just my kids . . . *sigh* Long day . . .

[MrPrax]

5. The Worst Philosopher Ever n/t

[bennywhale]

18. i think most of you are missing his point. in what he's saying he's

merely highlighting the hypocrisy of anti-abortionists and anti-contraceptionists. by the conception failing due to the infertile period of time and the embryo, if created dying, then by the logic of many anti-abortionists that ids mass death on purpose.

[SmokingJacket]

56. Thank you -- you got it. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. The Catholic church has been pushing the rhythm method for years

worked real well in Latin America :eyes:

[bmbmd]

16. That's all Catholics care about anymore-Rhythm and bingo.

If you lose the rhythm, the BINGO!

[meow2u3]

26. It's more accurately called the sympto-thermal method

The new 'rhythm method' also involves the use of a specially made basal thermometer, in which the woman takes her temperature every day. In three minutes, she can find out whether or not she's fertile; the temperature of the uterus rises when she's fertile.

The "symptoms" of fertility include an elevated basal (uterine) temperature. Catholic (and some non-Catholic) couples use this method also when they want a kid and have trouble conceiving without this assistance.

p.s. I'm tired of the extremes of this birth control argument: the "keep her barefoot and pregnant" crowd on the extreme right and the "copulate, but don't populate" bunch on the far left. I think this method is the middle ground.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

29. What do you call a couple who uses the rhythm method?

Parents.

[AngryOldDem]

33. And not many of us are listening anymore n/t

[supernova]

8. I think he's quite clever

Look, it's a stragne thought to be sure, but he's only taking the rythmn method to it's logical conclusion.

He's pointing out the hypocracy of supporting the RM as a way of Family planning when it accomplishes the same thing as contraception (to their way of thinking).

And for pro-birthies, this is a real trap.

[Exiled in America]

13. I agree, thought it was very clever, and logically consistent ---

could be a good form or argumentation to point out hypocrisies amoung anti-choice people.

[Richard Steele]

55. Exactly so. Reading the entire article makes that pretty clear.

You'd think the fact that the Anti-Female factions are
ANGRY with this guy would have tipped people off, but
it seems a few of us have missed the point despite that clue.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Whole paper here: a reductio ad absurdum argument?

http://press.psprings.co.uk/jme/june/355_me13920.pdf

It ends:

And finally, one person’s modus ponens is another person’s
modus tollens. One could simply conceive of this whole
argument as a reductio ad absurdum of the cornerstone of the
argument of the pro-life movement, namely that deaths of
early embryos are a matter of grave concern.

As the blogger Majikthise half guessed before she'd even read the paper.

Bovens replies to criticism: http://jme.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters?lookup=by_date&days=60#546

in which he seems to be advocating using condoms or the pill if you think possible embryo 'deaths' are a problem.

[daleo]

12. Exactly - he was using their own logic against them

This first came out a while back, and that's how I interpreted it then.

[Eurobabe]

14. It's morons like this who give us philosophy majors a bad name

eom

[Kailassa]

15. You're a philosophy major and you can't see what he's getting at?

This guy is not actually arguing against the rhythm method or abortion.

He's using the rhythm method example to show how completely absurd the anti-abortionists are being.

The fundie anti-abortionists favour the rhythm method, so he is wickedly showing how their own beliefs should stop them using that too. ;-)

[semillama]

19. Yeah, I got that right away

But then, my dad is a retired philosophy professor, and he gleefully used the same method to turn the conservative engineering students' arguments back on them. He said it was the most satisfying part of his job.

[Veronica.Franco]

17. Such nonsense ....

My parents used the rhythm method ... I have FIVE brothers and sisters ... and who knows how many grandchildren THEY have now ... "get rhythm, while you get the blues" ... LOL ...

[Canuckistanian]

21. Only YOU can prevent Early Embryonic Death®

End the slaughter of Blastocyst-Americans.

[The Stranger]

22. Please, for fuck's sake, let them use contraception.

There are too many people on the planet for its ecosystems to support, and that imbecile in Rome who they all listen to is lost in the Dark Ages.

[slackmaster]

27. This reads like something from The Onion

:argh:

[Yavin4]

28. When I Was A Kid, I Thought That The Rhythm Method Was Having Sex

to music. You'd have sex in rhythm with the beat of the music.

[Xithras]

38. ROFL!

You know, popping in a CD and trying to keep up with the bass line IS fun :evilgrin:

[ContraBass Black]

44. I've the lady's good, I'M the bassline.

Oh yeah.

[donsu]

31. every sperm and ova are not perfect - many are not and the woman's

body will reject these in many ways and at many different points from the joining of the two, to the miscarriage.

it's part of the survival mechanism of a woman's body.

back in the day this was understood by women and talked about. a not uncommon thing said after a miscarriage was 'well there must have been something wrong with it and it's all for the best'

the religiously insane's wish to save all pregnancies has a backlash to it.

[AngryOldDem]

32. Rhythm method is birth control

despite what its proponents within and without the Catholic Church may say. It's just easier on the conscience than using the pill or a condom, is all.

It's all about intent, which is something that I have NEVER heard any fan of natural family planning EVER address or admit amid all the high-falutin' language such as "respect for the woman's body" and "working with, not against, nature." If you don't want a kid and avoid sex during the time when you know a kid can start, then what the hell is it BUT birth control? Wrap it in any kind of pretty package you please, you are STILL making the conscious choice NOT to risk a pregnancy.

Probably what has their pants is a wad is "massive embryonic death," which is, I might add, what happens naturally all the time anyway, rhythm method or not.

Pretzel Logic 101.

[wallwriter]

35. Plus, rhythm method is acknowledgment of a universal truth:

People are going to screw recreationally no matter how much you try to scare or forbid them into not doing it.

[slackmaster]

39. Catholic Church teaches couples reverse rhythm method

Men and women who plan to marry are counseled on how to MAXIMIZE the chances of conception.

[AngryOldDem]

51. I missed that song and dance during my pre cana...

...we were just counseled to use our good judgment, I think, but it's been so long ago that I really don't remember what we were told. Not that it would have made any difference to us, anyway.

Bottom line is, if you are making a conscious choice to minimize or eliminate the chance of pregnancy, you **are** contracepting. And, news flash to the Church: Sex isn't just for procreation anymore, either, as the post above yours also says.

[sutz12]

36. Don't they call that method "Rhythm and Blues?"

;)

[krispos42]

40. So then, armed Catholics in the bedroom?

Sounds like the Catholics are pushing that we have a moral obligation to get pregnent as often as possible. So then will Catholics need to confess the sin of NOT having sex during the fertile period?

Look, this is really about making more Catholics. It is much easier to breed more Catholics than to try to convert the heathens. Which of course secures the Catholic power base and keeps the cardinals and Church bureaucracy happy and fat.

The religion that is not growing is dying.

[OnionPatch]

41. Ok, someone please help me out here

What, exactly, does he mean by an "undeveloped embryo"? Is he implying that an unfertilized egg is an "undeveloped embryo?

[ContraBass Black]

45. That's what it looks like.

:crazy:

[OnionPatch]

46. So, according to that logic

all the many sperms that do not become "developed" are "deaths" as well?

So, if you have a headache one night....you may inadvertently be committing murder? :rofl:

[ContraBass Black]

47. Not murder, GENOCIDE!

:o

[AngryOldDem]

52. I think he means this

If an egg is fertilized late in the woman's ovulation period, there is a chance that it will not become viable. It may implant in the womb, but the hormones needed to sustain it during the first seven weeks or so aren't there, because the body is coming down off the cycle. Miscarriage results. If the timing for the rhythm method is off by just a few days, there may be a risk of this. Which is why, unless a woman can virtually set her clock by her menstrual cycle, I think NFP is a **highly** unreliable form of birth control, and it pisses me off when it's presented as being "fool-proof" and "easy to do."

I speak from experience on this because my first miscarriage was explained as having occurred in this fashion. (I did not, however, use the rhythm method.)

[OnionPatch]

54. Wow, interesting

I had never heard that. And I thought I had read everything there was to read about pregnancy when I was pregnant. Thanks for the info.

[RCinBrooklyn]

42. "I got rhythm....who could ask for anything more?"

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

43. Ladies- spread 'em monthly- it's your duty to the Party!

...Yet he could have endured living with her if it had not been for just one thing -- sex.

As soon as he touched her she seemed to wince and stiffen. To embrace her was like embracing a jointed wooden image. And what was strange was that even when she was clasping him against her he had the feeling that she was simultaneously pushing him away with all her strength. The rigidlty of her muscles managed to convey that impression. She would lie there with shut eyes, neither resisting nor co-operating but submitting. It was extraordinarily embarrassing, and, after a while, horrible. But even then he could have borne living with her if it had been agreed that they should remain celibate. But curiously enough it was Katharine who refused this. They must, she said, produce a child if they could. So the performance continued to happen, once a week quite regulariy, whenever it was not impossible. She even used to remind him of it in the morning, as something which had to be done that evening and which must not be forgotten. She had two names for it. One was 'making a baby', and the other was 'our duty to the Party' (yes, she had actually used that phrase). Quite soon he grew to have a feeling of positive dread when the appointed day came round. But luckily no child appeared, and in the end she agreed to give up trying, and soon afterwards they parted.

--1984
George Orwell

[CPMaz]

48. Somebody alert Pat Robertson!

We've located the future director of Religion Inc.'s London Field Office.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. OK: how many people here actually bothered to read the actual article

rather than the Moonie-owned UPI interpretation of it? The link is in post #9. Read it, and you'll see that what he is doing is arguing that the Catholic advocation of the rhythm method is hypocritical for people who also don't allow abortion. But he ends by saying you can read the whole thing as an argument against the obsession with regarding the death of an early embryo as a problem. And in his followups to comments, he makes it clear that he thinks people should use reliable contraception, such as condoms or the pill, rather than the rhythm method.

[pitohui]

57. this is a joke, right?

those whacky philosophers, what a sense of humor

[LeftyMom]

58. NFP is not Rythym

Rythym is based on using past cycles to predict present fertility. As a result it's only useful for people who have very predictable cycles. Even they are only a small natural variation in hormone levels away from an unplanned pregnancy.

There are several different NFP methodologies (Billings, sympto-thermal, Creighton) but they all focus on using current indicators such as basal temperature, cervical mucus, position of the cervix and shape of the cervical os to protect fertility based exclusively indicators in the present cycle.

An article that can't even distinguish between the two really can't be considered reliable (especially since it comes from UPI- the moonies don't believe any birth control should be used in a proper moonie marriage, your job is to make babies for the cult.)