Philly officials eye eatery’s English-only sign

[sabra]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13272368/

Philly officials eye eatery’s English-only sign
City agency expected to file complaint against cheesesteak owner’s effort

PHILADELPHIA - City officials are expected to file a complaint Monday against an English-only ordering policy at Geno’s Steaks, one of Philadelphia’s best-known cheesesteak joints that has entered the national immigration debate.

Situated in a South Philadelphia immigrant neighborhood, Geno’s has posted small signs telling customers, “This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING ‘SPEAK ENGLISH.’”

“We’re alleging that the sign itself is enough of an unwelcoming message that it may violate the Fair Practices Act,” Rachel Lawton, acting executive director of the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations, told the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Owner Joseph Vento, 66, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly’s gooey, greasy specialty — fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.

[Ellen Forradalom]

1. When posting signs, write English

Lose the single quotes and add a comma.

[Critters2]

62. Exactly!!

Why do people LOVE to put quotes around everything? Is the person who designed that sign not allowed to eat there because s/he doesn't speak English?

[robbedvoter]

2. All's well in W's Amerikka....

And that "eying" means what? Will the guy get a medal for emulating dear fuhrer?

[William769]

3. If the sign is in English, how do they know what it says?

:shrug:

[The Deacon]

4. Fuck Geno's

Go across the street & get a real Philly Cheese Steak from the folks who invented it.

[AlinPA]

41. Yep, and Jim's is great too. Never ate a Geno's Cheeseteak.

[skipos]

5. Many Americans who travel would be f$%ked if Europeans did this to us

[robbedvoter]

6. In W's economy, the travel's over anyway - who can afford it?

So, everyone is taken care of. Just watch for the time we'll have to court furriners for euros - the money that really counts....

[Kelvin Mace]

16. Since most Americans who think this way

never leave the country, it is not going to sway them.

These folks are vile xenophobes and proud of it.

[Warpy]

7. I used to go to a Chinese takeout place in Boston

that had menus in Chinese and Spanish.

I coped. The food was good.

I've just never understood why people get all bent out of shape over the fact that new immigrants need time to gain confidence speaking even broken English.

I guess some folks are just destined to be xenophobic assholes.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

50. When I lived in Union City, NJ...

a lot of the signs were in Spanish. Guess what? I started to naturally understand Spanish. I've lost it now, but it wasn't a big deal to my family. We were in the minority by being white.

[dysfunctional press]

8. "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone..."

that doesn't speak english.

i thought that businesses didn't HAVE to serve anyone they didn't want to.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Actually, your subject line

was code, back in the '60s, for restaurants that wouldn't serve blacks. My brother was stationed in Alabama at the time and we went down from Illinois to visit him. If we went into a diner that had that sign, Mom would escort us out right away.

[dysfunctional press]

11. i've seen that sign in a lot of businesses...

not just restaurants.

and in recent years as well...

i have no problem with a business requiring customers to speak english when ordering- if they want to turn away business, that's their perogative.

[Cybergata]

18. Veiled Racism

The whole "English Only" issue is clearly veiled racism. The people who have been in power (white rich old men) are in the minority, but do not want to give up power. They fear the "browning" of America, but having "English Only" signs isn't going to stop it. It is inevitable.



Remember, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed many of us!

[dysfunctional press]

24. i have NO idea what that's supposed to mean...

"Remember, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed many of us!"

huh?

[Tesha]

28. Lots of what's now America used to be Mexico (before a war or so) (NT)

[dysfunctional press]

29. but none of the people there now where "crossed" by any borders

that all transpired many generations ago.

that would be kind of like someone buying a house near o'hare now, and then complaining about jet noise.

[mitchtv]

48. not quite true

Partner is first generation, his parents came here in the WWI era, there were no borders, and the family evolved over two states and two countries. "Many" generations? I think not

[dysfunctional press]

49. a "generation" is generally a period of about 20 years...

it's going on near 100 years since the last state joined the union...so yes, it's been many generations, although i suppose i mispoke in the way i phrased it.

but still- if a relatively few people can't get used to a border in 94 years of life- that's their fucking problem.

[wickerwoman]

53. It's 2059 already?

I guess I was more tired than I thought last night.

And the Spanish American war was in 1898, only two or three generations ago. I wouldn't call that many.

Also, the war began with America violating an existing treaty with Mexico for the sole purpose of grabbing as much land as humanly possible. Why don't you try telling some people from Belfast that a border is a border, get over it (and that was 700 years ago)?

[Cybergata]

58. Thank you

Most people don't realize that Hispanic New Mexicans lost over 80% of their land when the United States moved its border to the Pacific Ocean. Sure that was over 100 years, but people still remember. We are reminded everyday when newcomers move in, raise the property taxes, and we are moved out. It happened in my hometown of Santa Fe, and I see it happening all around me in Albuquerque. Sure the big land grab of the 1850s was a while ago, but it has been continuous since.

I've never been bothered by being part of the U.S. I've just been bothered by people who think the past doesn't haunt the present. I'm 53 years old, and believe me 50 years wasn't that long ago to someone my age.

[Cybergata]

61. Yes, but

the effects of the border crossing our ancestors is still felt by Hispanics in the Southwest.

There are still many people who speak Spanish in their homes here in New Mexico. Many Spanish speakers can trace their ancestry back to the 1600s and 1700s. Spanish has been spoke here for 100s of years, and hopefully it will go on for 100s more. Most of my 7th and 8th grade students speak better Spanish than I do because they are raised at in a time when we no longer buy into the theory that speaking Spanish will some how make us less successful in this country. At least that was the theory at the time I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. The whole English only is racist, it was in the 50s and it is now.

That said, if they guy doesn't want to serve people who speak Spanish, he shouldn't have to. I'll never eat at his place or anywhere that has a sign that says English Only. We all have choices, including the choice to bash the guy for his sign.

[Cybergata]

57. Explanation

"Remember, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed many of us!"

My father's ancestors came to New Mexico between 1598-1700, plus some of them were here way before Columbus. The entire southwestern part of the present day United States was under Spanish rule until 1821. At that time, what had been called New Spain, revolted against Spanish rule and became Mexico. New Mexico, being part of New Spain, also became Mexico. In 1848, General Kearney occupied New Mexico and claimed it for the United States. So the border of the United States crossed over my ancestors, my ancestors didn't cross a border to get here BECAUSE THEY ALREADY WERE here! They all spoke Spanish since 1598, and it is unbelievable to me that any of us should be told ENGLISH ONLY!

[Kailassa]

63. One reason I frequent these boards is the posts written

by people like you. I'm Australian, and there is still so much I don't know about the rest of the world, so I'm grateful to people who explain things as you have.

It astonishes me though that so many Americans seem to know no more about such things than I do, and to not even want to learn.

But then, their postings here are not proof of any political affiliation.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

54. "Remember, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed many of us!"

:eyes:

[Megahurtz]

39. I Agree.

Let the business owner put up whatever sign he wants.
If he wants to turn away the affected business, then apparently that's what he chooses to do.

Filing a complaint against him and forcing him to take the sign down
would be the more Nazi thing to do, in my opinion.

:nopity:I'm so tired of hearing people whine and getting their undies in a bunch
over words on a sign, words on a shirt etc.

If you don't like it, don't eat there! It's very simple!:think:

It's a fucking free country, and that also means free speech,
and the right for business owners to turn away business if they choose.

[happyslug]

17. Basic Contract Law, no one has a duty to deal with anyone else.

Thus they is NO need for such a sign (i.e. a sign that says "We have the right to refuse to do business with anyone"). Any business has the right to refuse to do business with anyone unless that refusal is for an illegal reason (Age, Sex, race, whether you have children, handicap, Religion, Jury Duty, membership in the National Guard etc).

Now an exception exist for "Public places". These are descendent's of the old "Inns". These include Taverns, Bars, Saloons, Restaurants, Eateries, Hotels and Motels etc. These MUST provide service to anyone who applies UNLESS such service would cause harm to other guests of the "Inn". The burden was on the Inn-Keeper to prove such harm (And why under the old Jim Crow laws discrimination based on race was PERMITTED, for under the Common Law such discrimination was illegal UNLESS permitted by Statute like the Jim Crow laws).

Please note the General Rule was Contract was voluntary on BOTH sides of the Contract. There were exceptions (Such as in the case of Inns) AND these have been expanded under the Civil Rights acts but the General rule is still one that BOTH sides must AGREE to enter into the Contract and thus either side of a proposed contract has the right to say NO.

As to English Only Rules, the Courts have found on them UNLESS the person requiring English only have a VERY GOOD REASON for such a rule. For Example in the Oil Refineries of Texas the rule is people are to speak English all the time to get them USE to USING ENGLISH all the time so that if something goes BAD People will yell warnings in ENGLISH. A similar rule applies to International AirCraft when it come s to operating Air Planes and Control Towers, All such transaction, by International Treaty, must be in English for the SAME REASON.

Once you get away from Safety, the English only Rule is generally looked upon as illegal discrimination if any job applicate can STILL perform the work without knowing English. The same logic applies to this case, how much English is required to learn to read off a Menu? If all the owner is requiring that you order In English and he only knows English that would be legal in my opinion. On the other hand if he is requiring people to Speak English even when NOT ordering (or Communicating with the Business) that would be illegal discrimination.

My point here is a Sign Saying "English Only" by itself is NOT a sign of ILLEGAL Discrimination by itself. Something more would be needed. Something showing the Sign IS not narrowly aimed to address the problem of Order Taking. If the Sign is for more English Speaking than just taking and giving orders it would be illegal.

[Karmakaze]

26. Its not that he is asking people to order in English...

It is the WAY he is "asking" people to order in English.

For example a perfectly reasonable sign (written in multiple languages) would be "Please order in English". But no, this guy has to preface the "request" with what some may consider a racial taunt "This is America" with the obvious but unwritten "not some gobbledygook speaking nation like yours".

Hell, he may as well have quoted Pulp Fiction "English, muthafucka, do you speak it?" The emotional content is just about the same.

[happyslug]

31. A please would have made it more palatable but more accurate?

Would the Nazi saying "Will you PLEASE move to the "Showers" be better than just telling the Jews to get into the "Showers" ("Showers" was the name used by the Nazi when telling the Jews what building they were going into, it was the Gas Chambers)

My point is that adding the word "Please" does not make something evil into something that is right. The issue is what is MEANT by the Sign? Was it a statement of intimidation or a simple directive? If it was meant to intimidate than it is illegal, if it was directive it is legal. The actual wording is unimportant, the issue is the INTENT AND Effect.

[Karmakaze]

34. Actually a "please" does make a difference...

It indicates an intent not to offend. You can pull out the Nazi comparisons all you want, but you can't tell me that there is not a qualitative difference between "Please order in English" and "This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING ‘SPEAK ENGLISH.’"

Personally, I live in a tourist town, so it is not unusual at all for me to see signs in shops written in multiple languages, and in shops dedicated to tourists informing them of what languages are spoken by the staff, simply to make life easier for the customers. There is nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned. But the attitude displayed in that sign is VERY different.

In fact it is also common to see signs informing deaf customers that there is or is not someone fluent in sign language on staff, with a request to deaf customers to inform the staff if they are hearing impaired so that they can be better accomodated. Still, I live in New Zealand, and we have a very different attitude down here it seems.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. Thanks for the class on contract law

I grew up when Jim Crow was still around, and that was why I recalled what happened when we went south. Funny, we never saw those signs up north. I didn't know about inns, etc, and so thanks for teaching me something today.

[rinsd]

38. Not true.

"back in the '60s, for restaurants that wouldn't serve blacks."

Restaurants that didn't serve blacks would say so outright with Whites Only the most popular sign.

"We reserve the right to refuse service" appears in nearly every single bar and restaurant I have ever been into throughout the country with no racial connotation.

ON edit: I should also state that that message is sometimes extended to read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone not prohibited by law.

[Sgent]

43. Just like in at-will hiring/employment

the "we reserve the right to refuse..." is a general approach.

They can refuse to serve you because they don't like your nailpolish, but can't do it for an illegal purpose (race, color, religion, etc).

I'm not sure if the "English Only" sign would be considered "national origin" discrimination by the courts or not. If it is, it would be illegal.

[cboy4]

10. I hope all of these English only morans like Mr. Vento get the rudest

treatment possible when they travel abroad because they can't fluently speak the language of that country.

The sign that Mr. Idiot has up in his Philly cheese steak joint is nauseating. :puke:

edit: spelling

[meow2u3]

12. That sign is code

that really means, "We do not serve Mexicans."

[Proud_Feminist4Peace]

13. WTF?????????

I thought we moved passed the days of "Whites Only" and "Colored Only". It is the same exact thing.

[saigon68]

20. He wants a " Clorox Crowd"

One that's been "Whitened Up"

[Starbucks Anarchist]

55. No, it's not.

People can learn a language. Nobody can "learn" an ethnicity -- they're born with it and can't change it.

[hogwyld]

14. Shut him down!

Put that a**hole out of business. He can practice his foreign language skills with the day workers at home depot.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. No "offical" intervention required

boycotts do nicely.

[MaineDem]

19. A nice welcome to world travelers

not

Philly is a major tourist area and this is a stop many tourists would make. I think this is a terrible way to welcome foreign guests. This doesn't even address the immigrant issue - it's a visitor issue!

[lebkuchen]

30. How is the tourist industry faring in the US these days?

I haven't spoken to a European who has shown an interest in travel to the US in a long time.

[Norquist Nemesis]

21. It would be interesting to look at his hiring practices

Not to be snoopy or anything, but just sayin'...

[kskiska]

59. Take a look at his website

All his employees are white. I was just about to post his website, but find that it's shut down. There were pictures of his staff.

[Virginia Dare]

22. I'm tired of this idiot and his free publicity....

I hate it when people are rewarded for being assholes.

[bigworld]

23. Geno's is a publicity hound

... and it is working. I never liked that place much anyway.

That being said, he does have the right to refuse service to anyone he wants.

[lebkuchen]

35. Can he refuse service to blacks?

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

52. if they don't speak English he can---what's the big deal?

I think all people should be treated fairly--but If lack of communication skills slows everything down and waste servers' and cashiers' time trying to figure out what they're saying then it's worth avoiding.


If they need to be there so bad they can have a friend mediate as interpreter.

Do you want to be the one who spends 5 or 10 minutes figuring out what someone wants when you have other tables and other things going on? ....possibly after all the hassle you may find them not understanding the customs either--like tipping.

meat is a bad idea anyway...in this day and age

better off getting the boot from the meat shack--might save lives-

mad cow anyone?--they'd just diagnose you with Alzheimers and deny CJD

[lebkuchen]

56. They definitely won't understand tipping

since tip and tax are included in every bill in Europe no matter what the service, which is invariably great.

What does one tip a Philly cheese steak provider, anyway? A heads-up to a better restaurant?

[BoneDaddy]

25. It is sad to see

an immigrant from a group who met much persecution at the hands of white america become that which was done to them. I find Italians, for some reason, to have made the switch from victim to persecutor rather easily. I don't get it.

[gauguin57]

27. Don't bother ordering in any language. Cheesesteaks will kill ya, man!

"... gooey, greasy specialty — fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions."

Yeeeech ... just lost my lunch!

[Laughing Mirror]

33. vento is Italian for wind

If owner Joseph Vento was really serious about the English only rule, he'd change his name to Joseph Wind.

[meow2u3]

40. What is Italian for "hot air"?

That's what Joey is full of.

[semillama]

36. So, basically:

If his grandparents somehow travelled in time from the day they stepped off the boat and ended up in their grandson's shop, he would refuse service to them because they didn't speak english?

[SquireJons]

37. Exactly n/t

[Blue State Bandit]

42. So much for my mushroom wiz "WIT". Guess I'll just have to got to Pats!

When asking for onions, they prefer their customers to specify "WIT" or "WIT OUT". Since "WIT" ain't proprer english, how the f@#K do they expect people to order their food? I'll guess just have to go to Pat's, or Sonny's on Market Street in Olde City. They got some good steaks there too.

[Danmel]

44. Go to Jim's or anywhere else

Don't encourage hate mongering.

Reminds me of Maurice's BBQ in COlumbia SC. Guy is a real racist pig. Flies the Stars and Bars and WANTS to offend people.



http://www.mauricesbbq.com/politics/index.html

Seriously you can't make this shit up.

When my son was about 7 we were in Philly and had eaten at Jim's. We were waiting for a bus to go back to our hotel and my son had to go to the bathroom so we went back into Jim's. There was this huge burly African American counterman and my son says hi and goes to use the bathroom. When he was on his way out the counter man said to him "You want provolone or Whiz on these sandwiches?" So Danny said "I didn't order any sandwiches." Guy says sure you did, POinting to a massive pile of meat on the grill. "I cooked all this up for you. How are you gonna pay for it?" By now Danny realizes what is going on and the two of them went back and forth for a while- the whole place was hysterical laughing watching them go back and forth.

Now that's the kind of memory a place wants you to have, not speak english.

[hedgehog]

45. Which dialect?

When I first returned to NYS from southern Ohio, some people had trouble understanding some of my words. (like tawl, as in bath tawl or dish tawl) When I travel south, it takes one or two encounters to re-tune my ear so I can understand everything.

[noshenanigans]

46. Maybe this is why i suck at customer service...

But if I worked at a place famous for cheesesteaks and there was a unsurmountable language barrier and for whatever reason I couldn't understand their order, I'd probably just sell them a damned cheesesteak anyways.

[depakid]

47. Gee, you don't think MSRNC is posting this to rile people up

Do you?

Nah....

[pinniped]

51. Joe is an Asshole.

This is supposed to solve the problem?


Owner Joseph Vento, 66, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly’s gooey, greasy specialty — fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.


I'm sure this Asshole had no problem taking their damm money.

[kskiska]

60. He was on CNN this morning and on r/w talk radio

He tried to claim that old Teddy Roosevelt defense about speaking English. However, his own use of English left much to be desired. He's one of those dese, dem, and dose guys. It was pointed out that if one didn't speak English, they couldn't read his sign. He agreed, and began sounding off about Spanish speakers. So, one might ask, exactly who benefits from this sign?

I'm sure many European tourists visit Philadelphia. Apparently he has no interest in serving them.