(Cuban) Students punished (by government) for Internet scheme

[RagingInMiami]

Five Cuban university students were suspended for up to five years for violations that their information technology school deemed ''very grave'': running chat rooms and using school servers to sell Internet access to others.

Cuba's Internet police, the Office of Information Security, caught the students at the University of Information Sciences (UCI) using school property to charge $30 a month for stolen Internet passwords, according to a video of a campus meeting, smuggled out of the island.

Critics of Fidel Castro's government say the video illustrates the lengths to which young Cubans are willing to go to access information in a place where the government tightly controls all information. A university whose dean says in the video is aimed at ''training the guerrillas of the new era'' instead found its students using their skills to hack their way to the outside world.

'It's easy for you to say: `They were using stolen passwords or appropriating government resources,' but that's because here we have the option of using the Internet,'' said Antonio Rivera, editor of the online news site La Nueva Cuba, which obtained the video. ``They have no other alternatives.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/5min/14785313.htm

[1932]

1. According to your post about your trip to Cuba, $30 is the equivalent of

what? Like US$10,000?

[RagingInMiami]

4. I wish that were the case

Because my money would have stretched much further than it actually did.

$30 is equal to 30 Pesos Convertibles, which is the currency created for the tourists, but also prefered among the Cubans.

And $30 is equal to about 750 Pesos in Monedad Nacional, which is the real currency.

Wages for Cubans who don't work in the tourist industry are extremely low. But they get guaranteed housing, healthcare and basic food items. If that makes any difference.

[1932]

7. And that was a month's salary for a doctor? Two months?

[RagingInMiami]

14. I was told that doctors make $30 a month

And college professors make $20 a month.

[Mika]

18. Did you know that Drs don't pay rent in Cuba?

Most all of doctors expenses are paid for by the state.

No home rent. No office rent. No insurance costs. All equipment is purchased by the state.

The doctors there have near zero overhead.

Most Americans don't know this.

Plus, Cuba churns out many trained doctors. Cuba has the highest DR/citizen ratio of any country. So, this means that not all are employed every hour of every day and since they aren't banking it big time like HMO practices in the US some seek to enhance their incomes.

[RagingInMiami]

31. And the doctors end up driving taxis because it pays more

I see Cuba's healthcare and the United States' healthcare as two extremes. I would like to have something in the middle.

[Mika]

38. Interesting. The evil repressive police state allows Drs to drive taxis?

Hmmmm.. something doesn't compute.

Evildoer Castro allows Drs to suppliment their income by driving taxis??!!

Don't they work for the Cuban Ministry of Health, er.. um.. I mean.. the evildoer dicktator Dr Castro?

One would think, for all of the hysterical mewling from US Castrophobes, that they would be all locked up in a cold dank cell with only roaches and rats to eat.


But instead, they are supplimenting their zero overhead professional income nicely by driving taxis.

[struggle4progress]

62. Doctors are leaving Cuba for places like Bolivia and Venezuela

Uruguay Defends Cuban Physicians

Montevideo, Jun 9 (Prensa Latina) Prominent Uruguayan writer Tomas de Mattos expressed his rejection Friday of what he described as pressure by Uruguayan doctors so that poor patients cannot receive free treatment in Cuba.

In a note published by Caras and Caretas weekly, de Mattos, also current National Library director, described as “legal nonsense” an allegation made against Cuban ophthalmologists by the country’s Association of Anesthesiologists and Surgeons ...

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B4E569A5C-6447-4D43-908A-D2AC0619508E%7D)&language=EN


June 7
Morales says Cuban doctors in Bolivia to stay

La Paz.– .. Cuba is also helping Morales' administration by providing physicians, many of them eye doctors who have been performing free operations on poor Bolivians with cataracts .... Bolivian Health Minister Nilda Heredia said some 200 more Cuban doctors would arrive soon, many of them specialists who will work in the 20 new clinics and hospitals set up with aid from Havana ..

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=14269


Resist this US backlash
Cuba is in danger of being punished by Europe for Washington's loss of clout in Latin America
Ian Gibson
Tuesday June 6, 2006
The Guardian

The UN recently announced that Cuba is the only country in Latin America that has no malnutrition. The World Health Organisation reports that the Cuban doctor-patient ratio is 1:170, better than the US average of 1:188. In addition, WHO has commended Cuba for outstanding literacy levels and rates of infant mortality and life expectancy that outstrip Washington DC - despite 45 years of an illegal economic blockade imposed by successive US administrations. Cuba's international activities also deserve recognition. It is operating humanitarian missions in 68 countries and, in 2005 alone, 1,800 doctors from 47 developing countries graduated in Cuba under a free scholarship scheme ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1791253,00.html


Cuba sends doctors to Botswana
5/30/2006 3:06:29 PM (GMT +2)

Havana: Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, Mompati Merafhe, thanked Cuba for medical cooperation that will soon bring 160 Cuban specialists to Botswana.

During a meeting in Havana with Cuban deputy Health Minister, Roberto Gonz‡lez, Merafhe highlighted the work of Cuban doctors which, he said, has greatly contributed to improve quality of life in Botswana. The minister also announced the creation of a school of medicine in Botswana with the support of Cuban specialists. He noted that education, health care and sanitation are currently the three top priorities in his country. Gonzalez briefed Merafhe on the progress achieved by the Cuban public health sector after the triumph of the revolution in 1959. Cuba and Botswana established collaboration agreements in June1989 when the first Cuban medical brigade of 11 doctors came to Botswana. At present, 14 youths from Botswana are studying on the island, while 94 Cuban medical specialists have already saved the lives of over 5.3 thousand patients there. (AIN)

http://www.mmegi.bw/2006/May/Tuesday30/4133652701716.html

[robinlynne]

68. no. They aren't leaving. The cuban govt sends them to help other countries

all the time. There is one doctor per seven people in cuba. the hightest ration of doctor/patient in the world.

[struggle4progress]

76. Yeah, I should have added sarcasmthingy. See the Guardian quote.

[Mika]

71. Those Cuban Drs have volunteered their service. Afterwards, they return..

.. to their homes in Cuba.

I know many that have done just that.

[struggle4progress]

77. What you're saying is rather clear in the links I posted:

Cuba is a good neighbor to much of the world

[Mika]

79. Indeed

:thumbsup:

[robinlynne]

80. got it. thank-you. we're on the same page.

[RagingInMiami]

132. Most doctors would not rather drive cabs to support their family

I would imagine they would rather make enough as a doctor to make ends meet.

Didn't you say you were a surgeon? Would you be willing to do that for $30 a month? Would you mind driving a cab at night?

[Mika]

147. Its not to support their families. Its to enhance their income.

As I have mentioned, Cuban Drs. have near zero overhead - and that includes their home rent, which is paid for by the state. This is how Cuba can manage to get Drs. serving in the far reaches of the country.

When I got out of dental school I had many thousands of dollars of debt to pay off. Cuban Drs. have no such debt load. You would be very surprised to find out what Drs. in debt will do in order to come up with enough money to pay down loans in the US. Better to drive taxis than perform unnecessary operations. Right?

[RagingInMiami]

165. You're a dentist?

Where were you when I needed you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5248828

[Mika]

168. I hope you've taken care of it.

Don't let it fester and cause more damage like peripheral infection.

Don't drink alcohol.

Get to your dentist right away.

Well done root canals are not too painful.


Good luck.

[RagingInMiami]

170. I've been drinking alcohol

It's hard to avoid when a client insists on taking me out for beers. And tonight I was going to meet a lady friend at a sports bar to watch the Heat game.

What is the worse that alcohol can do?

I really can't do anything until next Saturday when I have an appointment to visit the root canal specialist. I've been taking antibiotics and pain killers and using eugenol to kill the pain. I don't mix the pain killers with alcohol.

[robinlynne]

11. and free education for life, whenever they want to study.

The health care also includes everyhting, including plastic surgery. the problem is the US boycott, which means they just can't get medications. The US has recently pressured all latin american countries, except venezuela, into not trading with them, by saying "he who tradeth with Cuba cannot trade with the US."

[RagingInMiami]

13. What about the European countries that have medicine

Or Canada?

And what good is education for life if you're not able to use it to its fullest potential once you graduate?

The US embargo is only partly to blame for Cuba's woes. Let's face it, most of the stuff we buy in this country comes from China. Does communist China also have an embargo against Cuba?

[robinlynne]

26. no. china and venezuela are the only 2 countries which trade with cuba.

they too have chinese junk.

[Zhade]

33. Since when are they the only two countries that trade with Cuba?

That's demonstrably false - many European countries ALSO have trade relations with Cuba.

Where did you get your info from?

[robinlynne]

44. you mean used to have trade relations with cuba.

sorry I have to take the fifth on your second question.

[robinlynne]

55. basically since bush. but I do not know the date.

[Mika]

59. Complete hogwash.

Cuba has extensive trade relations with many European companies as well as fully normalized diplomatic relations with almost every country (except the US, which refuses any).

Cuba is expanding its trade relations all over Asia and with India and on the African continent.. not to mention expanding trade relations with most all latin American and Caribbean countries.

Canadian companies have extensive trade with Cuba. Same goes with Mexico.


I don't know why you spew this nonsense that Bush is the ruler of global trade relations. :puke:

[Zhade]

82. Um, that's still inaccurate.

Other countries - like Brazil, Germany, and others - do in fact trade with Cuba.

[robinlynne]

83. you mean used to trade with cuba. They can't afford to now.

[Mika]

87. Why don't you explain why?

I'd like to read something that confirms your theory.

[Zhade]

90. Um, no, I mean currently trade with Cuba.

Where the heck are you getting your info? It's wrong.

Here's a pdf regarding Cuba's trade relations with other countries, from LAST MONTH:

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/may/tradoc_122460.pdf

Read that, then get back to me.

[Mika]

91. Thanks for posting that PDF, Zhade

Nothing like a dose of reality with bar graphs and stats.

:thumbsup:

[robinlynne]

92. got it from a person who came back last month. That is what everyone there

said. And, from what she could see, it was true. the only imported items were from china. or from many years ago. They just don't have "things" there. Which they (and I), attribute to the US boycott. I know that Brazil used to trade with Cuba, and I know that the governments are very friendly. PEople go back and forth all the time, but Brazil too was forced to stop trading, or lose trade with the US. nIt is possible that I am wrong, but that did come straight from the horse's mouth.

[Zhade]

93. Yeah...you'll forgive me if I don't go with your anecdotal evidence.

I'll stick with the facts and statistics from international trade boards, thanks.

No offense intended.

[robinlynne]

94. Zhade, check your pdf. it is up to 2005. I'm talking about now, as in a

new thing the bush administration has just started, along with the other measures to block any money from getting to cuba. As you know, all the rules have been changed recently. cuban americans can now only go once every three years instead of once a year, etc. Americans who go are now faced with jailtime and a 7500 fine, whihc was not enforced until this year. Church groups who go get FBI visits to every church member 6 months after arrival, etc. I mean now, not always.

[Mika]

95. That is US domestic policy. Bush doesn't rule the world.

The US's Helms-Burton law is still in place (businesses that do biz in Cuba are banned from the US).

[robinlynne]

97. well, that's what I'm talking about. I didn't know anyone was banned fro

from doing business with the U.S. I found it shocking and terrible.

[Zhade]

110. Isn't it? I was horrified, too.

Not exactly shocked - this IS the United States, after all - but sorely disappointed.

[Judi Lynn]

175. US "trade" with Cuba, such as it is, is creating some problems for others.

U.S. joins list of Cuba's Top 10 trading partners
Canadian and foreign companies in Caribbean nation cry foul and accuse Washington of playing `very unfair games'
Jun. 12, 2006. 01:22 AM
OAKLAND ROSS
FEATURE WRITER


HAVANA—Canadian businesspeople in Cuba are steaming mad about what they say are unfair U.S. trade practices, as American exporters steadily increase their market share in a country Washington officially regards as an enemy state.
(snip)

"It's okay for them to do this. Meanwhile, they're putting pressure on Canadian companies and European companies. It's blatantly unfair."

It's also just a tad complicated, as Washington seems to be tightening up its restrictions on Cuban trade in some areas while loosening them in others. The reasons are both political and economic, but the consequences so far chiefly benefit American businesspeople while penalizing their foreign competitors.

Recently, the fear of running afoul of U.S. economic sanctions against Cuba has caused some foreign banks to review their policies toward doing business with the island. Canadian businesspeople in Cuba say it's no coincidence that this is happening just as U.S. exports to Cuba are on the rise.

"It's by design," said Simonato. "The Americans think they own the world."
(snip/...)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150064106570&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

[Zhade]

96. Those rules don't apply to the rest of the world.

Sorry, not buying it. I've heard too many reports of ongoing trade THIS YEAR to do so.

[robinlynne]

101. why then won't the european pharmacetuical comapnies sell medicines

to cuba? They can't get antibiotics, or even tylenol. I would think they could buy medicines from europe?

[Mika]

104. The companies have to choose one market or the other. Cuba or the US.

Most pharma companies choose the US market, and have patents in the US. The US Helms-Burton law prevents Tylenol or Aspirin to be sold by the manufacturers to Cuba IF they sell in the US.

That is one reason why Cuba has developed a world class pharmaceutical industry of its own.

[robinlynne]

121. ok, so you are saying that the countries do trade with cuba, but none of

the manufacturers do?
I'm trying to understand this, not be a pain in the ass.

[Mika]

124. Please, go back and reread the posts on this subject.

I have explained the difference between diplomatic relations and corporate trade with Cuba.

Not to be a pain, but its already been posted here.

[RagingInMiami]

136. "world class pharmaceutical industry "?

C'mon, you really have to limit the bullshit, Mika. There is nothing in the pharmacies in Havana. Nothing.

[Mika]

148. You obviously don't know this..

.. but, most meds are dispensed from the clinics in almost every neighborhood in Cuba. Their system is different that ours. 99% of their meds are free, not sold at pharmacies.

I'm beginning to see that you merely touched the surface on your brief visit to one city in Cuba.

Yes, Cuba does have a world class pharmaceutical industry that is recognized almost worldwide.


--

Plus.. isn't your post, accusing me of bullshiting, a personal attack on me?

Good thing I'm not into hitting the Alert link, for censorship. I like to let the personal attacks stand - very revealing of your agenda.

[Judi Lynn]

152. The term "world class" is used, again, in this article, as well!

One does not frequently hear of Cuba when discussing today's integrating global economy. Cuba appears isolated, politically and economically, mainly due to trade restrictions placed on it by the US in the 1960's. No wonder, says the author of this Straits Times article, the world is surprised to learn of Cuba's flourishing biotech industry which has contributed much to the field of biotechnology and medicine. Since its establishment in the mid-1980's, the Cuban biotech sector has developed a meningitis B vaccine, and today exports the world's most effective hepatitis B vaccine to more than 30 countries. Recently, it developed the first synthetic vaccine for the prevention of pneumonia and meningitis, which is much cheaper than what is offered by Western pharmaceutical companies. Poised to provide anti-cancer therapies to the European market by 2008, Cuba is also eagerly looking to enter the western market, and many observers are cheering it on. – YaleGlobal

Cuba Ailing? Not Its Biomedical Industry

Tom Fawthrop
The Straits Times, 26 January 2004

MENTION faraway Cuba and most people think of a Caribbean island best known for Havana cigars, rum and the revolutionary exploits of Che Guevara. They probably don't associate it with cutting edge medical research.

Yet Cuban biotechnology is now, among other things, leading the way in the development of a new generation of anti-cancer therapies expected to be available to the European market by 2008.

Given Cuba's cash-strapped economy, its scientific achievements are all the more surprising. It has long been battered by the United States trade embargo, imposed in the 1960s and still in force today. After the Cold War ended, Washington tightened the economic screws further with resulting shortages of consumer goods.

When Marxist revolutionary Fidel Castro came to power in 1959, most of Cuba's resources were ploughed into developing education and health systems. In the mid-1980s, with aid from the Soviet Union, Cuba started to invest heavily in science and biotechnology.

Although it is a small country with only 11 million people, it now boasts 52 scientific research institutes in the capital and more than 12,000 scientists on the whole island.
(snip/...)

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3193

[RagingInMiami]

162. I didn't realize you were so sensitive

While I was in Cuba, people said they had free healthcare, but there were continuous medical shortages.

[Mika]

169. Canadians say the same thing about their h-c system.

Almost everyone complains about their native h-c system.

Go to Guatemala or the D.R. or Salvador.. there you'll see real continuous medical shortages.

Cuba has one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, as well as the longest life expectancy - two standard measures of h-c access and efficacy - so the so-called "continuous medical shortages" don't have that great of an impact, aside from generating some usual complaints.

[Judi Lynn]

137. Absolutely world famous. Didn't Jimmy Carter spend some time

looking things over in their labs when he was there?

Here's an article addressing the subject:

Cuba cits 'world class' trail in biotech research

By Gary Marx, the Chicago Tribune

HAVANA — On the outskirts of Havana sits a cluster of drab buildings that are part of an effort to propel Cuba to the forefront of biotechnology even as its population struggles with blackouts, shortages and crumbling infrastructure.

Known as the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, or CIGB, the institute is one of 52 government facilities dedicated to human, animal and agricultural research that have recorded a string of successes.

Using more than $1 billion in state funding, Cuban scientists have produced a hepatitis B vaccine sold in more than 30 countries and streptokinase, a potent enzyme that dissolves blood clots and improves the survival rate of heart attack victims. The country also makes recombinant interferon that strengthens the immune system of cancer patients and a meningitis B vaccine.

In the pipeline are products ranging from an injection that closes ulcers and improves circulation in diabetics to vaccines against cholera and hepatitis C, according to Cuban officials.

“We’ve been very impressed by the biotech industry in Cuba,” said Anne Walsh, vice president for communications at GlaxoSmithKline, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world. “It’s world class.”
(snip/...)

http://www.thesouthern.com/articles/2006/01/01/business/doc43b6e887be9f4564996873.txt

[Judi Lynn]

98. Wonderful! It's going to be very useful, no doubt whatsoever. Thank you.nt

[dysfunctional press]

67. then why can you buy cuban cigars in canada?

do they get them from china, or venezuela?

[Mika]

29. Why do you keep perpetuating a falsehood?

The US extra territorial sanctions on Cuba (the Helms-Burton law and other US laws) are against CORPORATIONS and COMPANIES not countries that trade with Cuba.

Countries don't manufacture products. Corporations/companies do.

Any company that sells a product to Cuba is banned from selling to the US market.

Most corporations are for-profit (duh). They choose the 300,000,000 person US market over the 12 million person Cuban market (which is poor and has little credit).



This has been explained to you many times, but still you try to foist this falsehood on the 'Cuba threads'.

[robinlynne]

70. were you writing to me? first cuban thread I have ever written in on DU.

[Mika]

74. No. I was replying to Raging's post #13

If you look at the upper right side of the post box, under the date and time stamp, you'll see a - Response to Reply #xxx - where you can click to see the post being replied to.


:hi:

[AngryAmish]

171. Question on Cuba trade

I'm unfamiliar with Helms-Burton so bear with me. Why can't a trader in say Lebanon buy bulk antibiotics (or XBoxes or whiffler balls) from manufacturers in Europe or Japan and then sell to Cuba? The guy in Lebanon presumably would not care about trading with the US, the manufacturer would be none the wiser and I'm sure Cuba wouldn't rat out anyone.

[Mika]

172. They can do that. But there's a significant mark up & Cuba is poor. Plus..

.. there are the added expenses of shipping using a shipper that doesn't port/land in the US. The 3rd party mark ups and increased shipping costs makes many medicines and other products prohibitively expensive for a poor nation that has not much credit clout.

[daleo]

34. This could be said of any country in the world

"And what good is education for life if you're not able to use it to its fullest potential once you graduate?"

Talk to unemployed computer analysts in the U.S., for example.

[Ghost Dog]

41. Like trained African nurses choosing to work in the UK or France:

Good for the people of those European countries (good, willing, trained, relatively cheap nurses);

Bad for the people of African countries (not enough good, willing, trained nurses).

Plus there's the drain on the cost f the educational system in those countries.

[dailykoff]

2. I heard there's a huge illegal torture prison in Cuba.

Somewhere in Guantanamo, I believe.

[struggle4progress]

56. Yes: US has explicitly stated that prison is not subject to any law.

[IndianaGreen]

3. Gee, we do the same thing here to people that break into computer systems

and steal passwords and resources. I don't see the significance in the Miami Herald story.

[RagingInMiami]

5. The significance is that we are allowed to use the internet

The students I talked to in Havana said only foreign-exchange students have access to the internet.

Some students have one e-mail address they share with several other students, and they're lucky if they get to check their e-mail once-a-month.

[IndianaGreen]

6. What was that bill the US House passed yesterday about the internet?

It seems to me that it is the US that has less freedoms than Cuba, a country where the candidate with the most votes wins, and where gays are not being hunted down and persecuted as they are in Jesusland!

Published on Friday, June 9, 2006 by the BBC / UK

Defeat for Net Neutrality Backers

US politicians have rejected attempts to enshrine the principle of net neutrality in legislation.

by Tom Lasseter

Some fear the decision will mean net providers start deciding on behalf of customers which websites and services they can visit and use.

The vote is a defeat for Google, eBay and Amazon which wanted the net neutrality principle protected by law.

All three mounted vigorous lobbying campaigns prior to the vote in the House of Representatives.

<snip>

During the debate House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, said that without the amendment "telecommunications and cable companies will be able to create toll lanes on the information superhighway".

"This strikes at the heart of the free and equal nature of the internet," she added.

Critics of the amendment said it would bring in unnecessary government regulation

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0609-06.htm

[1932]

9. And I think we're not just going to suspend people from school for 5 yrs

when you break internet laws.

$250,000 dollar fine and prison for downloading music illegally, just for starters.

[RagingInMiami]

10. I wish people would stop comparing the US to Cuba

As a way to defend Cuba's politics. We're talking apples and oranges.

I agree that our democracy is in serious jeopardy. It's up to us to save democracy because the democrats and the media are not going to do anything about it. But we live in a nation of idiots who don't understand what the founders of this country meant by freedom.

But that's a discussion for another thread.

The truth is, there is serious lack of freedom in Cuba. And I'm surprised that some DUers are so willing to give Castro a pass on things that would outrage us if they happened in the United States.

I can understand how you can admire Castro because of his resilience against the United States over the last four decades. I understand how you respect the free healthcare, especially considering the situation with healthcare in the U.S.

But I don't understand how some DUers are blind to the fact that Castro achieved his goals through repression, manipulation and intimidation. That and a good dose of intelligence and charisma.

[WhiteTara]

17. whereas * is achieving his goals through

repression, manipulation and intimidation...Oh I see the difference now. They have housing, food, education, healthcare and limited freedoms and we have ......vanishing freedom.

No, I'm not saying I want to live in Castro's Cuba, but then again, I'm not so sure I want to live in *co's America either.

One thing about the people of Cuba is that they definitely have things to teach us about how to move to no oil. After the Soviet Union dissolved, they had to change their entire system of growing food and had to learn how to make it sustainable so that you create more calories than it takes to make them. We are really going to need that information soon. The good thing for the people of Cuba is that Castro is really old now, so they have an end in sight. With our nightmare, it seems that it will grow more nightmarish with no end in sight.

[RagingInMiami]

21. During the "Special Period"

Which is right after the collapse of the USSR, Cubans told me that it was not uncommon for mothers to mix mop threads with flour and other ingredients to make some kind of "hamburger" patty to feed their kids. Yes, mop threads.

The fact that Castro was able to maintain control through this period is an example of his political brilliance.

Castro's revolution eliminated the middle class. So everybody might be relatively equal in Cuba. But they're equally poor.

I hardly think that is a political model to aspire to.

[Mika]

36. Primarily due to a lock out on credit + US travel sanctions.

Cuba has little financial credit and refuses to play the http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=world+bank+policies+a+failure&btnG=Google+Search">IMF/World Bank loan exploitation game.


Americans own very little. Most of what Americans "own" is due to credit, and when one considers the US trade deficit and total national debt it can be argued that we outright own almost nothing.


Despite Cuba's lack of credit they do pretty well..

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

[Zhade]

45. Heads up, Mika - your first link has a double http.

Here's the corrected link, in case you can't edit:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=world+bank+policies+a+failure&btnG=Google+Search

[Mika]

52. Too late to edit. Thanks for the corrected link.

:thumbsup:

Lots of World Bank policy failure links there.

:hi:

[Zhade]

54. Happy to help - I think you do a wonderful service on these threads.

:hi:

[struggle4progress]

37. Canadian convicted of trading with Cuba (BBC / 4 April 2002)

A US court has convicted a Canadian national of breaking the 40-year old American trade embargo against Cuba, in one of the first cases of its kind.

The man, James Sabzali, and two American company executives were found guilty of trading with an enemy of the United States by selling water purification chemicals to Cuba ...

The case has caused some controversy in Canada, where the government has objected to the charges, saying that the United States was trying to enforce its laws outside its borders ...

The fact that Mr Sabzali was convicted on seven charges relating to his years in Canada may strengthen the feeling in Canada that the United States has overstepped the mark ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1910284.stm

[WhiteTara]

39. I fear our upcoming "special period"

I wonder what we will eat. And believe me, I am not aspiring to the coming planetary crisis that is predicted by Al Gore. I chose that we learn how to live together and not kill each other or rip each other off.

[Zhade]

46. Indeed!

NT!

[Judi Lynn]

72. Can you imagine how we would have fared under conditions like the

embargo? We have incomprehensible problems now for millions of American citizens, but since those problems affect poor Americans, it's easy to ignore them altogether, as the poor are seen as "lazy," anyway, and not worth our consideration!

Here's some information on the impact of the embargo on Cuba:

The Effects of the US ’Embargo’ Against Cuba

Published: Tue October 7, 2003, by Rémy HERRERA

The U.S. embargo against Cuba is condemned by an ever larger and by now overwhelming majority of member-states of the United Nations General Assembly. However, it continues to be imposed by the U.S. government’s isolated but stubborn will.

In spite of the United Nations repeated injunctions, notably its resolution 56/9 of the 27th of November 2001. The purpose of this expose is to denounce this embargo in the strongest terms for the violation of law it represents, and for its total lack of legitimacy. These measures of arbitrary constraint are tantamount to a U.S. undeclared act of war against Cuba; their devastating economic and social effects deny the people to exercise their basic human rights, and are unbearable for them. They directly subject the people to the maximum of suffering and infringe upon the physical and moral integrity of the whole population, and in the first place of the children, of the elderly and of women. In this respect, they can be seen as a crime against humanity .
(snip)

The harmful social effects of the embargo

The U.S. government’s announcements intimating that it would be favourable to the relaxation of the restrictions concerning foodstuffs and medicines went unheeded and cannot hide that Cuba has been the victim of a de facto embargo in these domains. The reduction of the availability of these types of goods exacerbates the privation of the population and constantly threatens its dietary security, its nutritional stability and its health. A humanitarian tragedy -which seems to be the implicit objective of the embargo- has been avoided only thanks to the will of the Cuban state to maintain at all costs the pillars of its social model, which guarantees to everyone, among others, a staple food for a modest price and a free consumption in the crèches, schools, hospitals, and homes for the elderly. That is the reaffirmation of the priority given by the authorities to the human development, which explains the established excellence of the statistical indicators of Cuba concerning health, education, research, culture... and this despite the extremely limited budgetary resources and the numerous problems resulting from the disappearance of the Soviet bloc. However, the continuation of the social progress in Cuba is impaired by the effective extension of the embargo.

The pressures exerted by the U.S. Departments of State and Trade on the suppliers of Cuba have concerned a wide range of goods necessary for the health sector (medicines destined for pregnant women, laboratory products, radiology equipment, operating tables and surgery equipment, anaesthetics, defibrillators, artificial breathing apparatuses, dialysis apparatuses, pharmaceutical stocks...) and went as far as to prevent the free supply of food for new-born babies and of equipment for unities of paediatric intensive care . The production capacities of vaccines conceived by Cuba are hampered by the frequent lack of spare parts and of essential components that have to be imported, as well as water treatment centres. This embargo provokes today an unjustified suffering of the Cuban people. The shortages affecting many medicines, which are not produced in Cuba, complicate the immediate and complete implementation of the procedures of treatment of breast cancer, leukaemia, cardiovascular or kidney diseases, and HIV for example. Moreover, the U.S. authority’s infringements on individual freedom of movement and scientific knowledge... (restrictions on travel of U.S. researchers, the disrespect of bilateral agreements on Cuban researcher’s visas, refusal to grant software licences or to satisfy the orders from Cuban libraries of books, magazines, diskettes or CD-Rom of specialized scientific literature...) have in fact led to the extension of the embargo to areas formally excluded from it by the law. One of the most fruitful opportunities to develop cooperation between nations on a solidary and humanist basis is therefore blocked.

The embargo is also in contradiction with the principles of the promotion and protection of human rights, which are desired by the U.S. people for themselves and for the rest of the world.
(snip)

http://www.alternatives.ca/article876.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's an interesting chart showing what countries have supported the U.S. embargo from 1992 to 2002, the last vote before this article was written. They are countries heavily dependent upon U.S. goodwill and handouts!

[RagingInMiami]

135. I will just get on a raft and travel to Cuba

[Mika]

149. Cuba doesn't have an 'American Adjustment Act' nor a Wet Foot/Dry Foot..

.. policy for Americans. You'll have to apply for a Cuban immigration visa.

[RagingInMiami]

159. I was being sarcastic

If anything, I would probably move to Colombia where I have family.

[roody]

158. Just go to Mexico and buy a plane ticket.

[IndianaGreen]

40. Let's see how US "political model" provides for Americans if it were under

the same economic embargo that Cuba had to endure. Do you think Americans can make their SUVs last for over 40 years without spare parts? Do you think Americans will allow their large homes collapse for lack of construction materials? Do you think Americans have the stomach to live under the threat of foreign state-sponsored terrorism for as long as the Cubans had to endure terrorism launched and financed from the United States?

[Judi Lynn]

78. To make the trip more attractive, the U.S. offers food stamps, Section 8

US taxpayer financed housing, social security, health care, financial assistance for school, instant legal status (they don't throw them out as they do all other illegals), etc., etc.

Here's a quick look from a link I just found:

"The never-ending wave of Cuban 'refugees' on South Florida has taken its toll on Florida residents in many forms."The most notable, school overcrowding, more tax money spent for English as a Second Language classes, massive health care costs, housing assistance and the impact on the criminal justice system."

"According to Coast Guard Key West, from June 1st to September 18, 2005, approximately 750 Cuban 'refugees' have landed in the Keys. The majority of these landings occur on uninhabited rocks such as the Dry Tortugas or the Marquesas Keys."

"In the areas affected by Hurricane Katrina, we see American citizens who are desperate to receive food, water, shelter and other basic human needs."In the Florida Keys, in a cruel twist of fate, we see undocumented Cuban nationals who have illegally entered into the U.S., and now will be receiving taxpayer-funded refugee benefits – the same type of benefits that our fellow citizens in New Orleans and Mississippi so desperately need."

"To add insult to injury, late-night-arriving Cuban refugees who can’t be driven to Miami, are put up at the Holiday Inn, at taxpayer expense in the form of a contract with a Miami based church group.

"As the U.S. government struggles to meet the challenge (of hurricane relief), the residents of the Florida Keys struggle to make sense with the constant surge of Cuban "refugees" and the taxpayer-funded benefits extended to them in the case of "dry feet"."Refugee benefits include immediate placement on Medicaid, housing assistance, lump sum cash assistance, food stamps, Federal grants, Supplemental Social Security (age eligible) and a myriad of other taxpayer funded social services."A list of refugee benefits can be found at the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, Office of Refugee Resettlement website
(snip/...)

http://www.vdare.com/mann/051010_cuban.htm

[0rganism]

51. Hey, me too! Let's compare Cuba to Haiti or Guatemala or Mexico instead

Funny how seldom I see that done. Care to take a stab at it yourself? Colombia, perhaps? El Salvador? Honduras? Cuba isn't the only country in the region with widespread poverty and a freedom defecit.

[Mika]

53. I've been to El Salvador and Hunduras & the D.R. and..

.. Cuba doesn't have the abject poverty and desperation I've seen in those countries. Cuba doesn't have swarms of homeless children begging for money for their glue/melted styrofoam huffing addiction. Health care is in serious short supply in those countries. Death hovers close by.

Not so in Cuba. In fact, Cuba aids those countries with medical doctors and free clinics - there have been many DU threads on this subject.

The people of Cuba take great pride in being able to help the desperately impoverished and sick wherever they can - even though they themselves are poor. This is one of the things I love about the Cuban people.. they have their priorities in ethical order.

[0rganism]

173. Exactly what I mean - Cuba does quite well, when it's apples to apples

Some Americans want to castigate Cuba for its reported shortcomings (reported by our friendly corporate media, anyway), but we'll never see that same level of scrutiny leveled at the countries that allow capitalists free reign, even when their people starve and suffer horribly under the cruelest of puppet dictatorships.

Every instance of a Cuban coming aground in Florida is treated as a national headline, serving to illustrate the horrors of Fidel's iron-fisted rule, and meriting the graces of instant citizenship. Yet when Mexicans cross the southern border by the hundreds of thousands every month, they're greeted not as victims of vicious economic disparity, but rather as willing slaves or criminals. And let's just forget about what happens should a boatload of Haitian refugees dare to approach the Florida coastline. One of the outstanding characteristics of our foreign policy with respect to the region is its overwhelming hypocrisy.

[robinlynne]

49. well for now. They're working on that. We just lost net neutrality in

congress, and the vote is up in the senate....

[Mika]

8. Using school property & stolen passwords and then charging for it = theft

From the op link..

Cuba's Internet police, the Office of Information Security, caught the students at the University of Information Sciences (UCI) using school property to charge $30 a month for stolen Internet passwords

There is internet available for consumers who can afford it (just like anywhere else) and the libraries for free (with time limits) in Cuba.

I've been there and seen it.

Even an anti Castro CBS propaganda story admits this fact..

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/tech/main592416.shtml

E-net is the largest of a handful of Internet providers in Cuba..

-

E-net customers who do not have the dollar phone service can keep accessing the Internet with the ordinary phone service with special cards sold at Etecsa offices

Stealing for their own use might be excusable to some degree seeing as how they are creative students, BUT charging others for the services that they are stealing really can't be justified by the excuses provided in the story. Most likely, that is why they were suspended for up to five years.

[RagingInMiami]

12. So why do the universities forbid Cuban students from using the internet?

But allow foreign students to use the internet. Something that was confirmed to me by every student and professor I talked to.

[Mika]

15. They don't. At least as you describe.

I've taught dental surgery to Cuban students & professors in Cuba and we (they) used the internet for research of products (tools, implants, etc) and techniques available from European companies.


I've had personal experience with this. I simply don't know why the people who told you this are telling you that they are 'forbidden', unless they mean restricted due to the lack of internet capabilities and bandwidth - which is the case in Cuba. Internet priorities are set to government and healthcare in Cuba.

Now, if the embargo (the US Helms-Burton law and a myriad of other add-ons) and travel sanctions were to be lifted on Cuba then I’m pretty sure much of this would change.

[RagingInMiami]

19. It was confirmed by several different students at different times

I doubt they were all involved in some conspiracy to lie to me about their internet access.

[Mika]

23. I didn't suggest any such thing.

I simply said that 'forbidden' possibly means restricted due to the lack of internet capabilities and bandwidth. I say that because I have seen and used (and seen students use) internet computers in Cuba.

No conspiracy was suggested by me.

[RagingInMiami]

24. They have slow dial-up

which is available to the foreign-exchange students and the tourists in the hotels. But I was specificially told that it was not available to the Cubans. Next time I go to Cuba, I will check out the libraries to see what the situation is over there.

[Zhade]

35. They probably got a "forbidden" error trying to access a website.

You know, like the kind of error we might get surfing the internet at times.

Mika, thanks for combating the ignorance. It's stunning how pervasive and persuasive the propaganda can be!

[ronnie624]

129. Indeed.

" It's stunning how pervasive and persuasive the propaganda can be!"

Especially stunning coming from someone who has actually been there. I believe ideological differences play a role in this irony. To bad so many are blinded by their need to grind axes.

[Judi Lynn]

133. No doubt travelers look for what they are conditioned to see.

I've seen some comical travel stories on the internetS from people who obviously have never questioned the heavy fog of propaganda they grew up with, and it looks as if they never bother to really open their eyes very wide while they were there, as if they only see the things which seem to reinforce the tales they've heard.

When I was posting at the old CNN's US/Cuba Relations message board, some of the idiot "exiles" there were talking about future projects they had heard about in which Miami "exiles" were going to go to Cuba and take photos of the run down buildings, and stores with very little to buy in them, or very long lines, to bring back and show Americans, so they would see how bad things are. Odd idea, isn't it?

They sound like a group with far too much time on their hands, and not many good ideas. They could use their time making things better for everyone, but screw that, apparently.

The same idealogical group also has sent boats to shoot at hotels from the water, in "float by" raids, (my term) and hired poor people from Central America to place bombs in hotels and discoteques, etc., etc.

A real bunch of noblemen and women in Miami.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Cuba is clearly not the progressive haven some paint it to be

[Mika]

20. Mainly because Cuba is poor and under an extra territorial embargo.

Cuba does not have the extensive for-profit internet infrastructure that the US has. There are bandwidth limits and a dilapidated phone system that is being slowly upgraded as they can afford to, but Cuba puts other priorities first. Education & healthcare come first.


If the US travel ban were to be lifted then Cuba's #1 industry, tourism, would be booming and the economy would improve - enabling infrastructure upgrading. There are many estimates that millions of Americans would travel to Cuba in the first year of the travel sanctions being lifted, and increasing every year as their tourism capabilities expand.

[RagingInMiami]

22. Lifting the embargo would be Castro's worst nightmare

The embargo benefits Castro and the Republicans. The real losers are the Cubans.

[Mika]

25. FYI, many repukes are for lifting the sanctions.

Its a mixed bag of Dems and repugs who are for and against the sanctions.

The reasoning for maintaining the extremist positions against Castro is for political gain, at the expense of the ignorant taxpayers who are brainwashed into thinking that Cubans are "fleeing" Castro, instead of understanding the actual Cuban-American community's immigration experience, which is primarily economic migration.

Consider this.. If there were to be no Castro, then there would be no VERY profitable taxpayer funded anti Castro foundations and programs. There is a litany of Rs and Ds who rail against evildoer Castro. They need Castro. Everything these so called "anti Castro" factions do, from taunts to threats of war to sanctions to embargoes, only unites the Cuban people behind their system of government and their fearless and successful leader. This is what the "anti Castro" politicians and "free Cuba" foundations need - in order to continue to profiteer on the backs of the US taxpayers.

Regrettably, it is not one sided profiteering. Perpetuating the embargo has a profit motive for US politicians representing both sides of the issue. No Castro = no anti Castro lobby (read campaign $$). No embargo = no pro trade w/Cuba lobby (read campaign $$) for the politicians who "support' lifting the sanctions on Cuba. Hence, the embargo stays just so the lobbying money pours in to both sides.


This is an excellent example of why we need real campaign financing reform - if not taxpayer funded campaigns.

[RagingInMiami]

27. And meanwhile, Castro uses the embargo as a way to cast the United States

as the evil country that is to blame for all their problems.

[robinlynne]

28. which is true.

It is amazing how well that little country is doing in spite of what we are doing for their collapse. just amazing!

[Zhade]

48. I don't know that it's ALL Cuba's problems...

...but any honest person must admit that the embargo is a HUGE burden on Cuba, and an unnecessarily stupid one to boot.

[Ghost Dog]

43. Thanks for the information/experience and for being so thoughtful,

and for being prepared to present such clear arguments, Mika, others. Saludos. :hi:

[LoZoccolo]

63. You are telling someone in Miami that Cubans are not fleeing Castro.

:rofl:

[Mika]

65. I live in Miami.

FYI,

Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba and increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.


Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

[Judi Lynn]

75. A lot of people don't know how much is given to Cuban immigrants

the moment they step food on dry land here. If this financial assistance and government protection were offered to Mexicans, to other Latin Americans, to Haitians, Dominicans, who die in large numbers, hundreds EACH YEAR, in the 700 to 900 mile trip from Haiti, in the desert, mountains, river, canals between the U.S. and Mexico, we'd be seeing such an onslaught of immigrants they'd be dying in the THOUSANDS trying to get here, instead, and this country would be far, far more crowded.

You may remember it was mentioned yesterday that Florida state Rep. David Rivera (I think( is trying to force Miami Cubans to stop visiting Cuba by threatening to cut off their special treats, like U.S. taxpayer funded Section 8 housing, food stamps, etc. This is to discourage their making trips right back there.

Learning that Cubans have been going back for visits was the light in the darkness of U.S. propaganda I needed to awaken me to the fact we have NOT been given the truth about Cuba all these years.

People in Florida are well aware of both Cubans returning to Cuba for visits, and are aware that their relatives come here to visit, as well. It's remarkable that the rest of us have been totally in the dark, while they blithefully go about their own business, happy as clams that we remain profoundly uninformed about this well-crafted illusion, on our dime.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Double standard in which Cubans are treated compared to Haitians and...

Mexicans. Cubans flee to America because they have been seduced by dreams of economic opportunity in Miami, much as West Berlin was used to seduce East Germans. The point is that they don't come here fleeing persecution! In that respect, Cubans are exactly the same as Mexicans that come across the border. The former are given refugee status while the latter are sent back to their country.

Until the recent elections, Haitians were the ones that were fleeing political persecution, after the US kidnapped President Aristide and put a US-friendly thug in power. While Haitians were being murdered by the US-backed regime, many fled to Florida to save their lives. Unfortunately they were too Black and too foreign for American tastes, so they were send back to Haiti, often to death or imprisonment.

[Judi Lynn]

88. Do you remember when Elián Gonzalez was here, and also a little

Haitian, who came with her mother to Florida, and whose mother DIED soon after her arrival? They were trying to send her back.

Here's an article from the Sun-Sentinel in Ft. Lauderdale:

Deportation: A tale of two kiddies
sun-sentinel.com
By MILDRADE CHERFILS
Web-posted: 10:43 p.m. Apr. 29, 2000

MIAMI -- Haitian activists made a desperate plea Friday on behalf of a
6-year-old Haitian girl facing deportation and about 5,000 other U.S.-born
Haitian-American children whose parents could be deported under current
immigration policy.
Sophonie Telcy, wearing a pink dress and matching socks, stood in front
of television cameras, but was reluctant to speak.
"My mother died in Haiti," the girl said in her native Creole.
When encouraged by advocates fighting to keep her in the United States
to say more, the shy kindergartner was silent. Her supporters decided to use
the media as a last-ditch effort to reach out to politicians to save the
child from an "uncertain future" and call attention to "disparate"
immigration policies.
Sophonie's situation "really shows the disparate treatment that Haitian
refugees and Haitian families have been subjected to for years," said
Marleine Bastien, head of Haitian Women of Miami.
Sophonie's mother died in April 1999 soon after bringing the child to
Florida. Sophonie's mother, Sana Remelus, dropped the girl off at a friend's
home after having secured illegal documents to fly to Florida a few weeks
earlier.
Remelus didn't tell her friend, Henry Smith, a construction worker, she
was ill and planned to return to Haiti. A few weeks later, Smith learned
Remelus had passed away.
Sophonie's father, Louis Junel Telcy, is said to live in Haiti, but
neither Smith nor Hastings' office has had any luck contacting him.
U.S. Rep. Alcee Hastings, D-Miramar, has asked Congress to grant
citizenship to Sophonie, who now lives in Lake Park with Smith and his wife,
Janine Bolivar, a hotel maid.
Bolivar, 28, sobbed when she tried to explain that Sophonie has no
health insurance and that it is she who has to pay for the girl's medical
care in addition to caring for her other young children -- ages 5, 4, and 6
months.
(snip)
Based on the Cuban Readjustment Act of 1966, Cubans who reach U.S.
shores are usually allowed to stay. Haitians and others are usually
repatriated to their countries, unless they can prove a "credible fear" of
persecution.
(snip/...)

http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti-archive/msg03450.html

[Mika]

89. Cubans who "flee" Cuba return for vacations and family visits.

Why would someone who is fleeing a country/government return within a year or so for a visit?

Because they are not "fleeing" Cuba.

--

IG, you are right about the US's treatment of Haitians who fled the bloodshed in Haiti. Cruel and racist to the core. After Aristide's overthrow by US backed henchmen many Haitians made it to Cuba where they sought asylum - and got it.

[LoZoccolo]

99. Let me guess...

...because they still want to see their family?

This whole thing about people not really fleeing Cuba is what loses me. It's like the thing that says "OK, they'll make up anything."

[Mika]

102. Why don't you read the posts about the perks they get in the USA?

They aren't fleeing Cuba. The vast majority of Cuban immigrants in the USA have come here legally using a legal process for a US immigration visa. They are migrating for economic reasons much like most immigrants that come to the USA. Except most other immigrants get no such perks that Cubans do.

If Cubans are fleeing tyrannical government persecution it just doesn't make sense that they would return to visit Cuba within a year or so - family or not.

Its not necessarily about 'making up anything', its about economic improvement.

No one can reasonably deny that the US extra territorial sanctions designed specifically to cripple Cuba's economy doesn't have an impact on economic migration from Cuba, especially when US taxpayer funded perks are waiting for any and all Cuban who get to the US - no matter how they get here, legally or not.

[Judi Lynn]

105. If I'm not mistaken, Elián Gonzalez's mother's boyfriend, also Lázaro,

had a prison record in Cuba, had been in there several times after a short career as a common criminal. There's no way he would have been accepted for a visa at the U.S. Interests Section. That's the reason he had to come by boat, I'll betcha!

[LoZoccolo]

107. How can you say that?

If Cubans are fleeing tyrannical government persecution it just doesn't make sense that they would return to visit Cuba within a year or so - family or not.

You really aren't an authority on how much someone wants to visit their family.

And is this an admission that the U.S. government does more for them than Cuba would?

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

116. Say that again, but nice this time. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

127. Who the bleep gonged me?

I'm simply overwhelmed.

[Mika]

115. The US helps Cubans more than it helps native born Americans

Why not try reading some of the posts on this subject, and then take some time to absorb the info.

[LoZoccolo]

117. Sounds like they help Cubans better than Cuba too. n/t

[Name removed]

119. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

123. As I've repeatedly stated to you.. Cubans migrate to the US for economic..

.. reasons.


You really seem to be deliberately ignoring this aspect of all immigration to the US.

[Judi Lynn]

103. Yeah, that's it. They can't wait to see those families.

In 2000, during the Elián Gonzalez circus, it was discovered that Lázaro, the great uncle, already had met Elián and the new wife on a trip he made to "visit" Juan Miguel. Maybe "visit" isn't quite the right word: he went fishing during the days, and hung out in the bars at night, then crashed in Juan Miguel's bedroom, which the host thoughtfully offered him, while Juan Miguel slept in his own GODDAMNED CAR in order to help him have a pleasant vacation.

The bastard was too cheap to even pop for his own hotel room.

I'll bet they were sorry to see that one go home.

[LoZoccolo]

109. What does this one example have to do with anything?

You're saying that every Cuban refugee would never like to see their family again based on that? I don't get this.

It's stuff like this where I'm like "if they're resorting to this, there must be something wrong".

[Mika]

125. No one is saying any such thing

What is being said is that Cubans do return to Cuba because they want to. They haven't fled persecution, that is why they can go back for such visits.

BTW, it is Bush who has put the strictest limits on Cubans living in the US on returning to Cuba for visits, not the Cuban government.

[Judi Lynn]

134. This is a photo of Menninger's, in Topeka, Kansas.

I have no doubt they would be more than anxious to see you in a hurry. Maybe they'll send a helicopter for you!

Surely help is on the way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When you get well, you will see that's not even CLOSE to what I said. Not even.

I gave an example of a Cuban returning to Cuba who was NOT desperate to see relatives, but, who was actually ON VACATION. Went there to whoop it up. Get drunk. Stagger around in the streets, pass out in the nephew's house.

That would be a very sad situation if all the Miami Cubans who return to Cuba also stayed plastered their entire time visiting.

[LoZoccolo]

100. Wait a second, this makes less sense than I originally thought.

Has it occurred to you that after they take a vacation or visit their family that they return to the US?

[Mika]

106. Has that occured to you?

I guess that they weren't fleeing Cuba if they can come and go. Duh.


You're right.. you haven't been making sense.

[LoZoccolo]

108. Why would they live in the US rather than Cuba?

I don't think I made an argument about whether or not they're allowed to leave, though I really don't know much about whether or not Cuba could detain someone who's been granted asylum in the US. My point is that people would rather live here than there.

[Mika]

111. ECONOMICS. Why not try actually reading some of my posts?

[LoZoccolo]

113. So the economic situation is better in the U.S. than Cuba?

Why do you think that is?

[Zhade]

114. I'm guessing "economic opportunity".

Cubans do tend to be poorer, in large part due to the embargo, than Americans (who are essentially richer than ANYONE).

[Mika]

118. Yes. But it is the availability of credit to Americans ..

.. enables the appearance of wealth.

If Cuba's economy wasn't as stilted from the US sanctions then Cuba would have access to better credit opportunities for economic development.

[Zhade]

120. No question - Americans are indebting themselves to death.

I fear the coming crash.

Part of why I'm fleeing to Canada, actually...and I think one day, when I become a citizen there, I'll go see Cuba for myself.

[LoZoccolo]

122. That doesn't make any sense.

If anything, credit would decrease wealth because people have to work off both the interest and principle eventually. But of course not everyone pays it off. But then are you going to say that the entire differential between the Cuban and American standard of living is due to people declaring bankruptcy?

[Mika]

126. Credit enables the means to economic development.

That improved business development enables improved income to pay down loans and eventually reap the income after loan paydown.

Do you really need this to be explained to you?

You seem to be "arguing" in non sense.

[RagingInMiami]

138. If they were not fleeing Cuba

If they were simply migrating for economic reasons.

Then why are they not allowed to buy a one-way airline ticket to Miami? Or to the Bahamas?

Why are they forced to jump on rafts and battle extremely rough, shark-infested waters to come to Miami?

That is fleeing. You can play all the semantics you want, but when a Cuban is forced to turn his 1950s automobile into a motorized raft, just to get to Miami, it's a safe bet they are not really free to come and go as they please.

It's a safe bet to say they are fleeing their country.

[Judi Lynn]

141. From whom are these people fleeing?

Posted 8/19/2005 12:42 AM

Illegals dying at record rate in Arizona desert
By Dennis Wagner, USA TODAY

SELLS, Ariz. — The smell of death floated on a sweltering August breeze near the Mexican border, emanating from an immigrant's corpse.

He had expired beneath a mesquite tree on the Tohono O'odham Indian nation 45 miles southwest of Tucson, apparently trying to escape the Sonoran sun, trying to get to America.

John Doe No. 130.

That's the name and number given to him by authorities in a year when Arizona has set new records for deaths among undocumented immigrants along the state's 389-mile border with Mexico.

With about six weeks remaining in the Border Patrol's fiscal year — and more Border Patrol agents patrolling than ever — 201 men, women and children have succumbed to the elements in Arizona.

In Pima County, which includes Tohono O'odham and Tucson, so many corpses are waiting to be identified, autopsied and returned to Mexico that the coroner is storing 60 of them in a refrigerator truck.
(snip/...)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-19-border-deaths_x.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From whom are these people fleeing?

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 a.m.

Message in a bottle saves migrants at sea

By MARIANELA JIMENEZ
The Associated Press

SAN JOSÉ, Costa Rica — First the boat broke down. Then the smugglers taking the 88 South Americans to the United States though Guatemala fled on another boat, taking the navigational aids with them. Then the old, wooden boat started to sink, and the food and water ran dry.

The migrants — about half Ecuadorean, half Peruvian — weren't even sure what day it was when they noticed a fishing line trailing in the ocean.

Desperate, they stuffed a message in a bottle and tied it to a flag on the line, hoping a fishing boat would return to collect its catch.

When fishermen aboard the Rey de Reyes reeled it in Sunday, they found the bottle and a scrap of paper with the words: "Help, please, help us."

They contacted local authorities, and the would-be migrants were rescued late Sunday after three days adrift at sea.

"The structure of the boat was pretty old, and the rain was sinking it and water was entering. The situation was worrisome because maybe they could have survived only a day more," said Melber Dalorzo, captain of the MarViva I that picked up the migrants.
(snip/...)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002296134_rescue02.html

[RagingInMiami]

160. I don't see much difference between the Cuban immigrants

and Mexican immigrants. They both come here to improve their lives.

The one difference I do see, however,is that the Cubans have to sneak out of their country, but they are welcomed into this country. And the Mexicans are encouraged to leave their country, but they have to sneak into this country.

[Judi Lynn]

161. Posters living in Miami used to discuss Cubans visiting Florida a lot

back on the now defunct CNN US/Cuba Relations message board. That's where I first found out about it, in 1999 or 2000.

Since then, I posted on another message board at Delphi, also closed now, which had several crappy old Cuban "exiles" posting their delusional drivel day after day after day, and one of them, an old bat female original "exile" confided to her Cuban buddies that her sister, who had been visiting from Cuba, had finally returned home.

I discovered that poster happy as a clam posting away on the Miami Herald message board in later days. God, what an unbearable ass she was, but she was among friends who didn't challenge her asinine remarks.

The Miami Herald message board really is the better place for Batistiano idiots.

[Mika]

163. Again, the overwhelming majority of Cuban expats have come here LEGALLY..

.. using a legal immigration visa.

When use use the expression "the Cubans have to sneak out of their country" you are using a vile stereotype that denegrates the thousands of Cuban expats who have come to the US using the legal avenues available to them.

Its a disgusting form of bigotry, that, in my opinion, is usually meant to denegrate the many good law abiding Cuban migrants in the USA.

Many of the Cuban expats that I know in Miami recognize that a significant portion of Cubans using illegal methods of migration (rafts and smugglers boats @ $5,000 per person) to get to the US are criminals and/or people who haven't been approved for a legal US immigration visa. Its the US's 'Wet Foot/Dry Foot' policy (for Cubans only) that encourages such illegal migration activity.

[RagingInMiami]

164. Majority, Minority

You can't ignore the number of Cubans who arrive here on rafts.

[Mika]

166. I'm not ignoring them. You are stereotyping Cubans in an ugly way..

.. by falsely claiming that "the Cubans have to sneak out of their country" as if "the Cubans" you speak of are all Cubans in the US. That is simply not true.

The vast majority of Cuban who have migrated to the US have done so legally.

[RagingInMiami]

167. I am not disputing that

They have come in waves. From the early 1960s to Mariel to the early 1990s.

[Mika]

150. Raging, the OVERWHELMING majority of Cuban expats in the US..

.. have done just what you asked about.

They have applied for a legal immigration visa and received it from the US. Then they came here on a flight from Cuba.

What a disgusting stereotype for you to even come close to suggesting that a significant percentage of Cuban-Americans in Miami have come here by raft or smugglers boat.
:puke:


Try selling that fable at the Versailles without getting your ass kicked.



--

As mentioned before, the US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

After arriving here, they get the perks afforded to Cubans only.

Do you get it?

The ones who come by illegal means, by raft and smugglers speedboats, have either failed a US visa application or haven't bothered to apply (for reasons unknown) for one.

[ngant17]

131. Cubans who go back to their country

The last time I visited Cuba, I met a ex-Marielito who came over to US way back during the Mariel boatlift. He lived and worked in the US for a few years, but got tired of the dead-end cycle of hard work/vanishing paycheck every week or two. He went back to his home country. He was subjected to some minor retaliation at first, but now he lives a normal life in Cuba and he has no regrets for coming back.

Stories like above will not make it into the US corporate press because it will challenge the notion that Cuba is some kind of island prison and everyone is dying to escape.

[Judi Lynn]

146. Thank you for posting this example. I've heard of them, too.

It has been mentioned in a book by former New York Times writer, Ann Louise Bardach:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but chose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Ann Louise Bardach
Copyright 2002

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really good to hear your first hand experience. Very, very interesting.

[Zhade]

85. You are responding to someone who lives in Miami...

...and actually has facts at hand.

I urge you to read what Mika's posted. Judi Lynn, too. Very informative, very detailed, and very accurate.

[ronnie624]

130. And as expected,

along comes the appeal to authority.

To anyone who values logic and facts, verifiable sources of information will always be more persuasive than anecdotes.

Your "argument" does not hold water.

[0rganism]

42. Nor is Cuba the the authoritarian nightmare others assume it to be

Maybe we should stop trying to compare Cuba directly to the United States and start comparing her to other nations in Central America and the Caribbean? But no, it's always, "In America, we can do X, but they can't do X in Cuba."

Guess what? The locals probably couldn't do that same X in many of the countries in the region, for one reason or another.

[robinlynne]

47. yes. for example, I lived in brazil for 20 years. It is the world's 7th or

8th largest economy, and yet there is starvation. people die of hunger all the time. and leprosy. There is no hunger in cuba. period.

[struggle4progress]

30. Another picture from the video providers at La Nueva Cuba:

Dunno: looks airbrushed to me

[Zhade]

50. That's such a terrible Photoshop.

A child can see it's fake!

[struggle4progress]

58. Hans Christian Andersen wrote an informative story about what ..

.. children can see

[Judi Lynn]

84. That idea has been done to death, hasn't it?

It was conceived in the 1960's in "Operation Mongoose" to try to discredit Fidel Castro in Cubans' eyes:

Then there was Operation Good Times. That involved sowing Cuba with faked photos of "an obese Castro" with two voluptuous women in a lavishly furnished room "and a table brimming over with the most delectable Cuban food." The faked photo would be captioned "my ration is different."

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kencast.htm

[daleo]

32. Wouldn't the U.S. government punish students for this too

"using school servers to sell Internet access to others."
"using school property to charge $30 a month for stolen Internet passwords"

In the capitalist world this would be treated very harshly indeed.

[Mika]

57. Yes indeed. Some DUsers actually support Cubans who commit crimes..

.. as long as it seems to fit (in their minds) into some anti Cuba/Castrophobic agenda.

--

On 'Castro this' and 'Castro that'.



Mr. Castro isn't the doer of all things in Cuba.

The Cuban people are the ones who have lifted Cuba up.
They have the freedom to do so now.
They didn't have that prior to the 1959 revolution.

___


Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

Health care and ed stats..

___



Cuba has a representational democratic government. The people have Ministries of education, health, etc. etc. EVERY profession and vocation has union representation. All Cubans in Cuba have had this since 1976 when they created their elected parliamentary system. They wanted these things and they worked hard to achieve them. Castro didn't do this. The Cuban people did it (and continue to do it).

I don't excoriate Mr. Castro, NOR do I laud him as the doer of all things Cuban (both good and bad).

It is a BIG mistake to do so, for it ignores the VAST support that the Cuban people have for their system of government.



get this book if you want to learn something about what I have said in this post..

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
Arnold August
1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[LoZoccolo]

61. I support some crimes of civil disobedience, yes.

For instance, I was one of the people who marched on Lake Shore Drive to shut it down right after Iraq War II started. Totally illegal.

[Mika]

64. Stealing ISP service and selling it doesn't qualify.

In case you didn't notice, that is the subject of the OP. The poster seems to defend this criminal activity (I think).

[LoZoccolo]

66. I defend it too.

FREE THE INTERNET FIVE! FREE CUBA! DOWN WITH CASTRO!

[Mika]

69. There you have it folks..

.. a defender of exploitation of Cubans in Cuba.

[LoZoccolo]

73. Were the students selling something that belonged to the Cubans buying it?

OK then, why did they buy it?

[Solon]

176. Its bandwidth from a PUBLIC university...

paid for by Cuba's tax dollars. The students then took the stolen passwords and bandwidth and OVERCHARGED Cubans for internet access. Its been long known, especially in geek circles, that bandwidth in Cuba is limited, the thing is that it isn't limited by the GOVERNMENT, but rather by trade policies of the nation that controls 60% of the servers of the internet and has sole control over the DNS. You can guess as to which particular nation that is, but Cuba isn't a rich nation, and bandwidth is VERY expensive to get there. Location is key, and they are an ISLAND, that means either underwater lines have to be laid out, or satelite is the way to go, both are very expensive to implement, and having, let's say, a few dedicated OC3 lines between Cuba and the Florida Keys, only about 90 miles long, would allow all Cubans to have affordable access to the Internet, that isn't limited in bandwidth or availablility.

Think of AOL back in the early to mid 1990s, they used old mainframes, and while availablity wasn't that much of a problem, bandwidth was, so you got a SHITLOAD of busy signals. Its the same type of bottleneck in Cuba right now, but its made worse because the US has an embargo that prevents Cuba from having direct, easy, access to the largest backbones of the internet. So the Cuban government restricts access to the internet to those who most need it, it makes economic sense, at least at the moment. If the Embargo was lifted and the lines laid, such a restriction wouldn't be necessary.

This isn't civil disobedience, this is theft, its comparable to me shoplifting some XBOX 360s when it debuted and selling them on E-Bay for a thousand bucks each. The demand for the XBOX 360 was extremely high, but the supply wasn't there, so the price became outragious. Same thing here, to ask why they would pay for it is, at best, a rhetorical question. Hell, I would pay a thousand a month for the 10 grand a month bandwidth available to universities HERE in the states, most of that also paid for by MY tax dollars.

[Zhade]

86. And totally commendable.

It was the right thing to do.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

128. Here's a reference to the internet in an article I posted this week:

Hit drama forces Cubans to confront homophobia

From Ronald Buchanan in Havana

~snip~
Dark Side Of The Moon was altogether different, however. The newspapers, which are predominantly loyal to the government, were deluged with readers’ letters and packed with interviews and commentaries about the series.

Infomed, the health ministry’s website, opened a readers’ blog; participants in the regular internet forum run by the National Centre for Sexual Education (Cenesex) spoke of nothing else for days; and Jiribilla, an electronic magazine, dedicated a whole issue to the programme.
(snip)

http://www.sundayherald.com/55671

It would be hard to imagine to what they're referring, if it's not the INTERNET in Cuba.

[RagingInMiami]

139. Cenesex is a government agency

The government has internet. They just don't want regular Cubans to have the Internet. It only goes to a select few.

[Judi Lynn]

140. Hmmm. It's my fault as I can't tell one term from another, apparently.

I do know CBS's show, 60 Minutes did a program a couple of years ago about Miami Cubans and their schizoid attitude toward the embargo: they want to continue giving money and goods to their own relatives there, but also don't want the U.S. government to remove the embargo and make things easier for OTHER Cubans. Apparently they want their own relatives to be the few with all the loot, the ones who are "wealthier" than the others, but don't want the others to get a better chance in life.

They went with some Cuban-Americans to Cuba, and showed them getting off the plane with their arms loaded with all kinds of items, including COMPUTERS they were carrying in. The sensible person would feel compelled to ask: What are they going to do with those computers, if they aren't allowed to use the internetS, according to right-wing propagandists?

Make a lot of these?



I guess these people at Pastors for Peace wouldn't be smiling so broadly if they learned that, after all the years they have taken computers to Cuba, that Cubans can't use the InternetS. What a shame!

[Ghost Dog]

143. And _any_ government is ipso facto a bad thing, huh?

(Just like the 'government-organised' official Cuban approach to hurricane protection and response for its population, for example, huh?)

Despite US Blockade, Cuba Opening Doors To Internet
By Angel Rodriguez Alvarez
AIN Special Service

If someone in any part of the world is told that in Cuba one cannot have free access to the Internet, one would think that it was simply a violation of individual freedom – unless they were offered a full explanation.

What is important is to understand is the digital disparity between the First and Third Worlds, a situation greatly worsened on the island due to Washington’s economic blockade.

In addition to financial restraints increasingly being placed on Cuba by Washington, the island is not allowed to connect to underwater optic fibre cables through which the overwhelming bulk of worldwide information flows.

Internet reception and transmission on the island is therefore reduced to satellite communication. This substantially limits the country’s connectivity capacity, causes the transmission of information to slow down and makes the process much more expensive.

For these reasons, the country set out to a development strategy to forge ahead in the ‘informatization’ of society. This is seen as the only way to have technology reach the broadest sectors of the nation and a larger number of people worldwide.

The informatization of society is defined in Havana as “the process of orderly and massive use of information and communication technology to satisfy the information and knowledge needs of all people and spheres of society.”

The issue has been touched upon on various occasions in speeches by Cuban President Fidel Castro, who recently expressed the official objective: “Millions of Cubans could communicate with millions of people in the world through the Internet”.

<snip>

So as not to offer an image that might seem overly optimistic, we can make reference to concrete aspects which are easily verifiable by any interested visitor to the country.

In Cuba, computer courses are included in the national education programs starting at the first grade level.

There are 26 Informatics Polytechnic Institutions in the provinces; these are equipped with modern digital technology and have an enrollment of 40,000 students of whom the first class will graduate in 2008.

In addition to the existing programs in the universities, in mid-2002 the Computer Sciences University (UCI) was created. It has 8,000 students selected from among the most talented and hard working in this specialty.

Complementing this effort are the over 600 Computer Clubs established and operating throughout the country’s 169 municipalities.

This project is important due to its egalitarian character: everyone can have access regardless of their age or occupation.

Some 800,000 people have graduated from universities, mainly young people. Up until today, over 200 of these facilities have Internet access and there are plans of extending this service to all of them.

We can also mention the INFOMED network, which belongs to the Health Ministry. Academics and professionals can also navigate with a personalized Internet access through special connections. This also includes doctors, journalists, artists and scientists.

Interviewed by the Cuban press, Engineer Roberto Santiesteban, director of the Data Business Unit which belongs to the island’s telecommunication company, offered a panorama of the future.

“The more we develop our Internet and more possibilities for connections, the service will spread nationally. This is conditioned by the cost and technological availability to Cuba, which is advancing on a yearly basis through the import of computers and making agreements with other nations,” said Santiesteban.

“Without a doubt these are the guidelines that will make it possible for any Cuban to have Internet access,” he concluded.

But, since this seems to represent the 'official line', involving the world-famous Cuban approach to 'universal education', I guess this will be called 'just lies, brainwashing and propaganda', huh?

[Judi Lynn]

145. Simply stupendous! It's so easy to tell Americans almost anything

and many of them will swallow those lies whole, without questioning them, as long as you keep a total INFORMATION BLACKOUT on the government you're trying to destroy.

Make the country impossible to reach for the ordinary American, allowing right-wing tools to go there to hone their propaganda skills, and you've got a recipe for success! Ha ha ha ha.

Fortunately for us, there have been enough OTHER people from countries like Canada, European countries, etc., etc. who've been sharing their experiences with us all the way along, so we know the ring of truth when we hear it.

Your article is just GREAT. I surely hope a lot of DU'ers will read it. Thank you so much.

[Mika]

151. Kinda makes one wonder what is the agenda of the Cuba detractors..

.. who have made claims that the internet is 'forbidden' in to Cuban students.

I have seen Cuban students use internet computers with my own (lying) eyes. The axe grinders say it isn't so.

I should believe the axe grinders about the Cuban pharmaceutical industry too then? despite the evidence.

The axe grinders mewl that Cubans can't buy meds from empty pharmacies - when meds in Cuba are dispensed at clinics, at no charge.


Damn. Its sickening that Cuba and Cubans are mistreated so by Americans wielding this well ground axe.


-

Thanks to those in this thread who have posted links that confirm much of what I have seen on my many visits all around Cuba in reaction to the axe grinding Cubaphobes.

:thumbsup:

[ronnie624]

155. Thanks for that.

It certainly helps cut through the bullshit.

[killbotfactory]

142. They were stealing passwords

Uh... what the hell was the government supposed to do, tolerate theft?

If we want Cuba to have a better internet connection, we can end the embargo.

Here's a couple articles on the internet and Cuba:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9322
http://www.cuba.cu/noticias.php?idnoticia=15549&orden=4

[Judi Lynn]

144. I've read your first article already. It's PERFECT.

I've heard the points made in it for years. I've seen right-wingers bringing the very same arguments back again and again, no matter how many times they've been given the information. They just can't accept the fact they are profoundly WRONG, and that the rest of us know it.

From your first article, some important details:

Any discussion about any aspect of life in Cuba, including computers and information technology, cannot avoid the reality of the U.S. blockade/embargo (the word's use depends on who is on the giving or the receiving end) and the topic came up over 75 times during the two-hour online discussion. Over and over again the blockade was indicated as the overlying reason why the lack of computers and access to them exists in Cuba. This criminal policy permeates all economic spheres of the country including industry and computer science education. It impedes the acquisition of computer applications and software from U.S. companies who are the most important in this arena. The blockade creates difficulties in the development of information and communication technologies and considerably increases the cost of any investment, requiring Cuba to look for alternatives in more distant markets. It has prevented Cuba from connecting to the Internet by means of a fiber optic oceanic cable that passes close by the island, forcing them to utilize satellite connections that are not only more expensive but have less bandwidth, making the connections slower.

It has impeded the development of a satisfactory computer infrastructure throughout the island. Purchasing licenses for proprietary software is difficult. Computer donations from within the United States are prohibited by U.S. law and have even recently been confiscated by the U.S. Department of Commerce at the U.S.- Mexico borders this last August, when the Pastors for Peace attempted to take them out of the country, destined for Cuba. It wasn’t until 1996 that Cuba was even able to connect to the Internet due to the blockade.
(snip)

I hope a ton of DU'ers will read this valuable article. Thanks so much!

[Judi Lynn]

153. I've found some excellent photographs of Cubans which DU'ers might

want to examine. Just click on each photograph to see larger version, from "Bright Little Island:"

http://extras.journalnow.com/cuba/index.htm

[Mika]

154. Internet image searches related to Cuba yields many thousands of pictures.

Photos from tourists from around the world. Photos of all interests, from many perspectives. Historical, architectural, social, medical, educational, fishing, bird watching, agricultural, topographical, environmental, cars, busses, some promoting Cuba's tourism, most all proclaiming Cuba's beauty and opportunity for photographers, and on and on and on. By the tens of thousands.

Tourism of all kinds is Cuba's #1 income generator.


Don't you find it interesting that some Castro hating ax grinders posting on DU say that the Cuban authorities hassle photographers and don't want pics taken?

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

156. It's easy to spend HOURS at a time pouring over Cuba photos taken

by travelers any time you want. My favorite Cuba photographer is Dan Heller. There may be thousands of HIS photos on the internet!

He has a site at wwhttp://www.danheller.com/cuba.html
He's simply unbelievable!





Mika, did you ever take time to go on one of the bike tours of the island? I've seen personal accounts and photos from people who did, posted on the internetS.

[Mika]

157. Yes. I've ridden across the Sierra Maestra Mountains.

Back in the 80's. Some serious mind & leg numbing climbing. Its one of the rare times I've had to use first gear (39X27).

Our group gave all of our spare tires, tubes and many tools to the Cuban cycling clubs who helped us tour the island.

There is an annual Tour of Cuba that attracts many of the international pro cycling tour teams and riders.


Thanks for posting more pics.

[RagingInMiami]

174. Hey, I have a similar shot of his photo of El Morro

It looks like he took his at dawn while I took mine at sunset

[Mika]

177. Nice picture. But it begs this question..

.. if Cubans are so desperate to "escape" Cuba by any means they can muster (as suggested by you earlier in this thread w/pics of truck rafts and such), then what are all of those boats doing just sitting at anchor overnight?

[RagingInMiami]

178. I thought the same thing

But you can't deny all the Cubans who have arrived here on rafts over the last two decades.