Fla. High Schoolers Must Choose Major

[Judi Lynn]

Fla. High Schoolers Must Choose Major

By Associated Press
June 5, 2006, 1:53 PM EDT

DAVIE, Fla. -- Florida high school students will have to declare majors and minors, just as college students do, under a law signed Monday by Gov. Jeb Bush.

A major could involve a traditional academic subject such as English or math, or a vocational field such as carpentry or auto repair.

Bush said the measure will make high school more relevant and more interesting.

"Our students will now take charge and plan for their future, realizing the decisions they make today shape their tomorrow," he said.
(snip/...)

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-florida-majors,0,6868031.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

[Turbineguy]

1. Ughhhh

Smoking behind the locker room?

[ret5hd]

2. i heard about this on npr about 2 months ago...

just another way to pigeonhole kids and limit their later choices.
good work, you arrogant racist, classist prick. i hope someday you find the gated communities you and your ilk habitate are locked from the outside by the people you now subjugate.

[Mythsaje]

3. And, yet, up until this point

THEY'VE been given almost no chance to make that determination yet. They're supposed to leave junior high with some kind of idea what they want to do in the world?

This is standard bass-ackward crap from these idiots. They should give them a couple of semesters rotating through possible career paths, THEN ask them to decide which one they might be interested in.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I think they should make kids work in factories and on assembly lines

for at least a sememster in high school. Some will love it. For others, it would be the motivation to go to college.

[Kerrytravelers]

4. So, this is basically a way to separate the "undesirables."

Do you have any idea how many times I changed my major and my minor in college? Why are we doing this to high schoolers. I know that Europe has a similar program, but to all of a sudden change it here seems a bit... odd.

Those who are deemed "worthy" will be prepped for college. Those who seem worthless (and, most likely English Language learners) will be told they don't have the same worthiness.

College isn't for everyone, but I sense this as a way of separating people.

As a California teacher, I would not like to see that happen here.

Am I looking at this completely wrong? Is there a benefit to this? Is this elsewhere in the country? How does it work and do you like it?

[Berry Cool]

9. It doesn't seem like anything radically new to me.

Back in the '70s when I was in high school in Ohio, we were considered to have "majors" in the sense that if we took four years of a certain subject, it was a major. Three years, we could call it a minor.

And we had academic tracks--general, vocational, college prep, and I think something else I can't recall. I was college prep. We were counseled according to the track we chose. I.e., you want college prep, you have to take this many years of English, math, science. You have to take those subjects up to this certain level. You have to take at least three years of a foreign language, if not four. Stuff like that.

I suppose if I hadn't been considered "college material," someone might have tried to talk me out of college prep, but I was, so no one did.

This was a very small rural high school where maybe a third to half the kids went on to college, and when they did it was often to a community college. But if you took college prep, well, they prepped you as best they could.

I didn't realize it wasn't still this way in most high schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. These are not all academic tracks

Some kids will be put in vocational tracks.

[FlaGranny]

23. The other "major" was business -

or "commercial" as it was called in my high school 50 years ago.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. It is very common in other countries

and there are pros and cons. Personally, I don't believe in boxing kids into a choice that young. On the other hand, I knew when I was 7 that I wanted to be a teacher. I never had any other serious career choices as I went through school. But I don't think that is all that common.

[Art_from_Ark]

18. I had no idea what I wanted to be when I was in high school

I wasn't until I was in college for a few years that I settled on a career path.

Making high school students declare majors is really stupid

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. The European model puts the kids in academic or vocational tracks.

That makes more sense than this idea. And I don't think it is necessarily a good model.

[Art_from_Ark]

32. The Japanese model separates kids into "good", "medium", and

"bad" high schools. Each 9th grader gets one chance to test into a public high school of his/her choice. Lots of competition for the "good" schools. If they fail, they can take as many tests as they want (or their parents want) to get into a private high school (cha-CHING!). Or they can wait out a year and take another test for one public school the following year. Or they can go to vo-tech school. Or start work in a dead-end job. Or join the self-defense forces.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. We need to remember that the next time some uninformed person

tells us the kids in Japan achieve more than our kids.

[reprobate]

43. Hell, I didn't find my goal in life until I retired. That was it!

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Some people get to retire

others probably will never be able to retire.

I have a feeling I'm in Group 2.

[NNadir]

5. How is it that the Bushes, vastly ignorant people, rule on education?

They are among the most poorly educated people I have ever seen.

Having a high school "major" does not make for a well rounded person.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. That is such an excellent point!

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. They are working toward adopting the European model

It varies, but in many other countries, especially in Europe, kids are tracked into academic or vocational programs before they start high school. Some countries track kids as young as kindergarten!

There is research supporting and disproving this, which is probably why we don't do it here. Plus our k-12 schools work more closely with universities (who would most likely promote an academic model) than many other countries do.

[jerry611]

10. Yes

And then they tell you what you have to do for a profression based on your academic record, not what you want. This is especially true in Germany. Education there is completely free. But you don't get to choose what you want to do. The government chooses for you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. The German model is very draconian

This also explains why it is not valid to compare our high school kids' test scores to other countries, especially Germany. We test ALL of our kids, while they are only testing the college bound.

So the next time you hear that other countries are out performing us, keep this in mind. :)

[Turbineguy]

34. I was in school in the Netherlands in the 60's

(gadzooks, it was a long time ago!)

After 6th grade you had basically 3 choices: trade school (home economics, carpentry, mason etc.) Advanced elementary (secretary, typist, store clerk, several levels of training) College prep (again 4 grades of schooling, liberal arts, clergy, engineers, medical, philosophy going from light to heavy on languages and math and sciences).

Your social class had a lot to do with where you ended up. Social class trumped a lousy test score (something Bush would understand) it also would work the other way. No sense in being educated in a circle of ignorant relatives.

They have actually gotten away from this model toward the more egalitarian American model. And for the better.

To lock a 12 year old child into a life path is a terrible thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Some countries lock the kids in at age 5!!

[mainer]

51. my Dutch father-in-law repeated HS to get his PhD

My father-in-law came from a blue-collar family in the Netherlands, so he was directed into a trade high school. But by the time he was 17, he knew he wanted to be a scientist, not a tradesman. Trouble was, he couldn't go straight to university with his inferior HS degree, so he had to go back and REPEAT high school, to get all the courses he was denied in his first high school. He wasted two years of his life because of this stupid early "tracking" system. But he persevered, even through the indignity of being a 20-year-old back in high school, and became a well-renowned engineer.

[Rude Horner]

7. Well I sure would have been shit out of luck

I didn't know what I wanted to do until the latter half of my Senior year, and even then I just picked something because I was good at it. 25 years later and I have a completely different career than what I picked.

I wonder what Jeb is giving for the reason. Is he just saying that it will make high school more relevant? :shrug:

[Berry Cool]

13. Does this really mean what some of you are thinking it means?

When I was in high school, "having a major" didn't mean I had to choose right then and there what I wanted to do with my life. And it didn't mean I couldn't change my mind.

I mean, our majors were things like this:

--English
--Science
--Math
--History
--French
--Spanish
--Art
--Music

I don't think those kinds of majors really limited us or forced us into pigeonholes. I was an English/Art/French major. I now write for a living. Back when I was in high school, I wanted to be a commercial artist. My art teacher, thank goodness, realized I never would have had a competitive portfolio in that field (I was OK...not incredible) and wisely steered me toward the writing end of things. But even so, I entered college not knowing what I wanted to major in, and didn't declare until the end of my sophomore year.

I know Bush-bashing is fun but until I see what kind of curriculum Bro' Jeb is forcing down the poor Floridian kids' throats, I can't work up a good lather about this one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. What if they had put you in a vocational program, like

auto mechanics? Then when you decided you wanted to go to college, you would have discovered you didn't have the right kind of high school transcript?

Now do you get it? :)

[One_Life_To_Give]

49. Doesn't that happen already?

How many vocational classes can you take now and still be prepared for College? On the other hand how many college prep kids can rebuild a engine? To try and do boht will likely mean ther are ill prepared for either. Assuring a need for further schooling beyond graduation.

[demo dutch]

53. Exactly! Holland passed this in the 70's. Turned out to be a big mistake!

[Milspec]

60. " WhyTurned out to be a big mistake!" Himmmm Why?

Holland is some sort of shit hole now?

[demo dutch]

62. Ha ha very funny! No I think there something to say for a well

rounded education, in which students are instructed in a variety of courses. But mostly because people found themselves severely limited and locked in. So when they decided down the line to change majors and they found themselves needing to take certain required classes to reach the new goal they did not have the "high school back up" education for those classes. In which case they needed to take remedial classes to catch up resulting in a higher expenses and it took longer to graduate. See also post #34. I was educated there and went through a similiar experience.

[jedr]

11. this has always got my goat;

In 8th grade they want to know what you want vocation you want to choose. I know of few people who knew what they were going to do in their second year of college. None of my kids ended up in their major, nor did I. Things happen and your work experience take you to many different places. Some work out, others don't. We all did fine. What is the purpose of this?....got me?:wtf:

[nick303]

17. I have little faith it will be executed well

but if it were, I think it's a good idea. I don't think a college is going to reject you if you majored or didn't major in a certain field in high school. It has the potential to empower students who find themselves interested in a certain topic. I wish I had such an opporunity when I was younger.

Other people have mentioned that this is a common practice in other countries. I had a friend in college from HK who went to a private "business" high school. American university courses were mostly a formality after what she had been through, I think she graduated in 3 years with a 3.9+ average.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. A college will reject you if you spent high school studying auto mechanics

instead of academics.

[nick303]

30. A lot of schools break down between college-prep and vocational

The person who majors in auto mechanics

a) may not get into Harvard, but will be able to get into a college

or

b) knew what they were getting themselves into (i.e. made a decision with predictable consequences)

[bluestateguy]

19. I don't think this will work

Rather, what I think should be done is for high schools to develop a curriculum that offers students electives across a variety of disciplines: music, drama, singing, creative writing, shop and advanced classes in the arts and sciences.

But 14-18 year old kids are not old enough to declare a major, and it's most important that they get a well-rounded education first, with some courses that give them a chance to accentuate their talents and interests.

[w4rma]

20. Bad law. (nt)

[Canuckistanian]

21. Must get every citizen on the proper corporate track

And the authorities must know in advance for their five-year plans.

That way, they can budget everyone's future allotment of food pellets in an efficient manner.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Bingo!

[Spangle]

22. ALSO: Schools can't start earlier then 2 weeks before Labor Day

That is good news. Some schools down here start as early as the first week of August. Yuck!

I just wonder when the law would go into effect. for the 06=07 school year, our county is to start Aug 7th. 2 weeks before Labor Day would be Aug 21st. If this new ruling goes into effect for the 06-07 school year.. our school would have to start 2 weeks later then they plan.

i haven't found an article which states WHEN it would take affect.

As for the major & minor thing. You guys don't realize how bad it is in the HS down here. I was shocked when I had to deal with my kids HS counslors. Helpful? NOT. Our school has kids all the time who end up in the 12th grade and NOT graduating that year.. becaue of the counslers focing kids in classes they didn't need.. and ignoring the Kids when they would point out the problem.

A joke. A really bad joke!

This vo-tech courses are NOT a bad thing. I thought so at first. But so long as those kids GET a HS diploma, they can always go back to school and learn something else.

The main thing is getting their HS diploma!

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. So will they go to school till the 4th of July?

School years are getting longer. I would rather not go in August either but going into June is yucky too.

We have snow days here. And we have to make them up at the end of the year. One year we had such a bad winter that we went to school till June 32nd. LOL It sure seemed that long.

[Spangle]

37. They get out just before June here.

MAy 24th this year. But I remmeber some years being a little later. And school starts up around the first or second week of August. Basicly just 2 months off.

What I can't understand is.... When we lived up north, the kids would end up with emergency snow days, etc.. and STILL didn't go to school in June or August! We had 3 months break.

However, the kids down here do have 2 weeks off at the end of december. ANd lots of days off for teacher work days, etc. PLUS they get out an hour earlier on Wed. NEVER could figure that one out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Every state has a different standard

The state sets the length of the school year. I teach in MO where the school year is 175 days. But I live in KS, where the school year is 180 days.

[Spangle]

39. Ah... Thanks!

I didn't know that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. You know this points to one of the biggest problems with NCLB

They have set accountability standards for the country yet every state runs its schools differently. They also give different tests. Remember that the next time they compare kids in one state to another.

[Art_from_Ark]

31. Vo-tech courses are not the issue

I think nearly all public high schools offer at least some vo-tech courses (shop, typing, computer classes, etc.). The issue, as I see it, is forcing kids to declare a major at a time when most of them are probably just beginning to explore their possibilities. At 14 or 15, I would have ended up throwing darts at a dartboard to determine my "major".

[Spangle]

35. High School Major isn't the same as JOB

It can be, if that major is something they can take vo-tech for, or pre-collee classes.

In HS I majored in Math, History and someting else and Minored in science. I was pre-college, so it didn't really matter. I needed all those courses for college and I ended up getting several 'majors' and minors. If you major in something, you take more courses along those lines. No big deal.

Wither it is vo-tech, college, etc.. they will still need so many credits, so many math courses, so many history, etc. THAT doesn't change. The basic HS dip qualificatons doesn't change.

I think it's an attempt to encourage the kids to start planning what courses they need and to stay on track. When my daughter was in HS I learned that they tend to 'loose' the kids in 9th grade. That the most 'screw ups' happen and the kids get behind. And spend the next 3 years playing catch up.

[Miss Chybil]

29. Sounds like a good idea to me. nt

[DutyHonorCountry]

44. Sounds like a good idea

In high school I knew that I wanted something in science. I would have like to have the choice of taking classes that would have prepared me better for a science career. I should have taken more math classes and less literature. I am all for a well-rounded education, but Calc I would have helped me more in undergrad than a class on English lit. Can't you just declare a new major if you change your mind?

[wickerwoman]

33. I suspect that this is so they can gut liberal arts programs.

Forced to choose a major in high school, I bet a lot of kids who don't know what they want to do will go for a business or a science major (especially in underpriviledged areas.) I used to teach inner-city high school kids making the transition to college and they all wanted to major in business or medicine because they saw it as their only chance to be successful and lift themselves out of poverty.

Then they can argue "why are we teaching history, government, music, journalism, literature, etc. to all these business and science majors?" And then when they stop requiring students to take these subjects, the enrollment numbers will fall and they can justify cutting back the programs.

I think high school is our last crack in many cases (almost 50% of the population) of preparing students to be functional members of a democracy and teaching history, rhetoric, media studies, communications, critical thinking and civics are absolutely essential components of that goal. But not if your last name is Bush, I suspect.

[JackDragna]

40. What a bunch of bollcksed idiocy.

I am a firm believer in a well-rounded high school experience. Is there no other purpose for education other than the bloody job market?

[eppur_se_muova]

46. There were a few threads on this in the last couple of months...

one by me ... all received lots of responses. People seem to feel pretty strongly about it, but to my surprise there wasn't a clear majority for rejection. Can't seem to locate mine now--this one (by Judy Lynn) was in Education:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=4958&mesg_id=4958

[Igel]

47. It's not something I can really object to.

It's not locking them into a career; it may limit their choices of colleges, but lots of kids at large research institutions take their first couple of years at community colleges and transfer in. It levels the effect of crappy vs. superb high schools.

On the other hand, it gives them some skills. Not every kid is academically oriented. By the time they're in 10th grade, many of them know this. Sometimes it's a shortfall in mental ability, sometimes it's a shortfall in desire or intent. But we assume they're all college-track, when it's obvious that not all should be college track.

Now, what we need is for them to limit liberal arts majors (also in college). Students prefer them, and colleges love them because they're cheap.

[Mountainman]

48. I think the kids are too young in high school to decide their future this

way. If they don't take the right courses early enough they won't be able to go to college if they later on decide to do that after they have chosen a non college prep track. When I was in high school there was shop and mechanical drawing but there were also jobs you could get like tool making. Now we are a service economy paying low wages for service jobs and the only way out is a college education in some other field.

We should provide the best quality education to every student and challenge them to be all they can be. 14 is too young to make up your mind what you are going to do with the rest of your life.

[demo dutch]

54. What about a "WELL ROUNDED" education! Several European

countries have been down this road and are going back to the American system

[nick303]

58. While I have doubts about the implementation in this case,

I still think the base idea is sound. Under this system, the student is given the possibility of more of what they are interested in, less of what they're not, and are given the ability to specialize.

The argument that the student "can't possibly know what they want to do at that point in their life" does not do it for me. Students should be faced with these decisions sooner than later. By the time you are 15 or 16, you *should* have an idea if college is the right thing for you. It isn't right for everybody. How many people did you know that got into college, then dropped out before they completed it, for one reason or another?

You should not get the idea that a student has to make a "perfect" decision to benefit either. I am out of college now, and looking back, I was pretty satisfied with the choices I made. However, for my money, things could have been better. Knowing what I know now, I would have majored in math (instead of IT). I would have also scrapped most of my liberal arts classes if it would have been allowed by the program I was in. I didn't do those things, and those are consequences I have to live with. Life goes on.

[demo dutch]

61. I think there something to say for a well rounded education, in which

students are instructed in a variety of courses. You may have been lucky enough to know what you wanted. However I think if you are limited and decide for what ever reason down the line to change your major and find yourself needing to take certain required classes to reach the new goal you may not have the "high school back up" education for those classes. In which case you'll need to take remedial classes to catch up but it would take longer to graduate at a higher expense.

[Igel]

59. But it's not doing that at all.

You just don't have the option of applying directly to Harvard.

Instead, you first go to a local college, and then transfer. "College track" is a misnomer; colleges don't accept the tracking, apart from some of the top colleges. And even those weigh recent college-level work much more than the prior high-school work.

Even the ones that major in machine shop can go this route. But it doesn't force the college-track kids to be mixed in with those that have no interest in college.

[Posteritatis]

57. "Limit liberal arts majors?"

I must admit I'm curious as to what you've got to say about that.

[nodehopper]

50. in the USSR

you had "specialized" schools--more than half the schools had some kind of specialization. The most common ones were in math and in languages--English, German and French (and rarely Spanish). I think there were schools with empahsis on biology, too. Later there were schools specifically focused on humanities pre-college prep. I thought it was a good system; all that meant was that you got extra classes earlier on, and it was more integrated into the rest of your curriculum. It all depends upon execution. I think it could be a good idea, or a terrible one.

[demo dutch]

52. They did this in the 70's in Holland. Turned out to be a HUGE mistake!

[warrens]

55. Oh, boy, is that stupid

I couldn't even decide on a major til my junior year. In college.

[LetsGoMurphys]

56. This is so stupid

Very very few kids know what they want in college. I didnt know what I wanted to do until 2 years post college.

[gauguin57]

63. Hell, if i'd have had to declare a major in high school, it'd have been...

... chasing boys, probably. And being a goofball.

Very different from my grown-up self, and from the many majors I've had along the way in college and grad school!

Jeb, you are just full of DUMB ideas every single day of your "public service."