Chavez grabs centre stage at OPEC

[cal04]

VENEZUELAN President Hugo Chavez took centre stage at OPEC's meeting in Caracas today and used the gathering to lambast Washington and tout his nationalist ideas for control over energy resources. Mr Chavez, a former soldier who says he is building a socialist revolution for the poor, is a fierce critic of the US government and has allied himself closely with Cuba in an effort to counter Washington's influence in Latin America.

His 90-minute, meandering speech before OPEC ministers broke with usual protocol at the cartel which has worked to keep politics out of business - Iran and Iraq even managed to sit together at meetings during their war in the
1980s. Mr Chavez attacked what he called US imperialism, recalled a visit to then-Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and spoke of his "good friend" Carlos Ramirez - better known as Carlos the Jackal - now in jail for terrorist attacks, including the 1975 kidnapping of OPEC ministers at a Vienna meeting.

US officials portray Mr Chavez as an autocrat who has strong-armed Venezuela's democracy and used his country's oil wealth to meddle in the domestic politics of his South American neighbours. He counters Washington is plotting to oust him. "The US government says we support terrorism and that we destabilise the continent, but we are free and we don't give a damn what the US imperialists say," Mr Chavez told his audience at the opening ceremony for the 141st OPEC ministerial meeting.

Mr Chavez has promised to introduce sweeping social reforms to combat chronic poverty in Venezuela, the world's No.5 oil exporter and he has been one of the fiercest price hawks within OPEC since his election in 1998. Venezuela has also led a campaign for Latin American energy producers to claim a greater share of profits from foreign investors. Venezuela is advising Bolivian President Evo Morales, who recently moved to nationalise gas reserves. Mr Chavez has also pushed for other Latin America nations such as Ecuador to be allowed to join OPEC. "OPEC is anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist and a liberator for the development of our people in Latin America, Africa and Asia," he said.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19337445-1702,00.html

[Kikosexy2]

1. You go...

Hugo-a Go-Go!

[Pavulon]

2. Taking on bets on TTL

for comrade chavez.

<2years, killed by his military...

[xxqqqzme]

3. w/ death squad john controlling the

black ops money AND the presidential gift of excusing the reporting of it - I'd say yep, death squad john is already at work on that.

[saigon68]

225. He will KILL Chavez

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Yeah, yeah, but which outcome do you WANT to be true? -nt

[Vidar]

4. Bravo Chavez!

[Peace Patriot]

5. Standard 'swiftboating' of Chavez. I could've written this in my sleep,

the corporate 'talking points' are so repetitious, and/or so obviously pointed at certain pre-decided stereotypes...

Starting with the title: "grabs" center stage, not "takes" center stage. Pushy Chavez (unlike, say, Bush, strutting around an aircraft carrier in his flight suit...).

"used the gathering to lambast"--doesn't have legitimate beef with the goddamned US oil giants and Bush oil cartel which has slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and tortured many more, largely because they're sitting on the Bush Cartel's oil.

"touting his nationalist ideas"--yeah, well, he IS the head of a NATION! Christ! "Nationalist" as opposed to what? Global corporate predators like Exxon-Mobile and Chevron?

"his nationalist ideas for control over energy resources"--here's his chief crime; imagine a country's energy resources being used to help the country that owns them!

"Mr. Chavez, a former soldier..." - repeated over and over and over again, in the corporate news media. Do they say that about Bush? "Mr. Bush, a former National Guard pilot"? No, that would be too embarrassing. Okay, would they have said it about Bush Sr. when he was president--routinely, in news articles about OTHER things. "Mr. Daddy Bush, a former Air Force pilot (or whatever he was), today launched his new budget talks with Congress..." See how ridiculous it is--to describe the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED president of Venezuela as "Mr. Chavez, a former soldier..." This is done solely to associate him with MILITARISM in some vague and impressionistic way.

"Mr. Chavez...who says he is building a socialist revolution for the poor..." --"says" he is building? That sounds like it isn't true. How about some facts, huh? Do these kind of reporters even bother with facts?

"...a fierce critic of the U.S. government...allied himself closely with Cuba..." --yeah, among OTHER countries. Argentina. Bolivia. China. And it's not personal. "...allied himself..." It's the clear will of the Venezuelan people, and it is in their interests. So frigging WHAT?

"His 90 minute, meandering speech..."--"meandering" in whose opinion? the opinion of this corporate-paid shill of a reporter? he's not interested in Chavez's ideas for poor countries and the use of their resources; but maybe a whole lot of others WOULD be. Meandering. Where did he "meander" to? What did he say?

"...broke with OPEC protocol..."--it's entirely the opinion of this reporter that OPEC "has worked to keep politics out of business." What crap.

"Mr Chavez attacked what he called US imperialism..."--and what would The Australian call it? US benevolence? Kindly US death squads in Latin America?

"Carlos the Jackal." Right. How about a QUOTE, hm? What did he REALLY say?

--------

And that's just the first two paragraphs.

The Australian allows Chavez to get in one zinger, at the end of para 3--"...we are free and we don't give a damn what the US imperialists say..."--otherwise it's a hit piece.

Really, these corporate news monopoly hit pieces on Chavez are becoming laughable. I read one in, I think it was the London Times a few weeks ago that made me laugh out loud, it was so slanted and so ridiculous. With an obviously coordinated campaign like this going on against him, in the corporate media (do they think these "talking points" up at Bilderberg meetings, or what?), it's no wonder he thinks Washington is out to kill him and destroy Venezuelan democracy.

But I do think that Chavez is one hell of a savvy politician with a laser-like instinct for Bush's jugular, and for getting his points across DESPITE the "swiftboating." He sticks it to them, so that they CAN'T ignore him--the way the limp noodles of the Democratic Party should be doing. But our guys (and gals) gave up a long time ago on "a socialist revolution for the poor." Who represents the U.S. poor now? Who?

Chavez is representing all of us who have no party, no voice, no country any more, who are taking the $10 TRILLION deficit, and the skyrocketing medical and energy costs, and the outsourcing of jobs, in the gut, and who stand helpless before the dismantling of our Constitution, the torture of prisoners held in custody in our name, and the on-going deaths in Iraq.

"...we are free and we don't give a damn what the US imperialists say..." Sounds like our own country, at one time, when we issued the Declaration of Independence. And I imagine that Thomas Jefferson's and James Madison's press in England and among the moneyed and landed class of Europe was as bad as Hugo Chavez's is now.

[Walt Disney]

6. I suspect that one of he reasons Comrade Chavez is referred to

as "a former solider" is due to the fact that he has a fetish for military attire.

As have others throughout the course of history.

[PassingFair]

7. Don't forget.......

!

[IndianaGreen]

9. Oh, but that is Bush, a good defender of capitalism

and to some people, like the pro-nazi Walt Disney if he were still alive today, anything to the left of Hitler is communism.

[Sadie5]

10. Same old, same old

It's always Washington said this, or the US said that. But we already know that you can't believe anything Bush says, or Washington for that matter. Chavez, I honestly believe has the best interest of his people at heart.

[nolabels]

22. Fucking AWOL POS

Anybody that wears or ever wore a military uniform should be outraged

[Walt Disney]

27. Okay, so you are suggesting that Chavez is as much of an idiot

as boy george.

I have to admit it, you have me there.

[redqueen]

55. Nah, note the lack of a sock.

Seriously, I don't give a $#&@* if he likes to wear his outfit. What he's doing for the poor, and to counter US imperialism - that's important. Fashion, IMO, is just not.

[Walt Disney]

144. Chavez has done nothing for the poor.

The problem with the poor is that they are too ignorant to know it. It is truly a depressing situation.

[manic expression]

152. As in lowering the poverty rate?

as in allowing far more access to basic medical care? As in ensuring land reform, which gives land to the people who need it and deserve it?

Nice try.

[rman]

177. dude, you're lying

[0007]

252. Din ding ding went the trolley

[Phx_Dem]

221. what is he doing for the poor besides putting them..

on an allowance? Is that a sustainable approach? What happens when they need to use oil money for other things?

[Judi Lynn]

226. You should spend some time finding the answers.

The fact that you don't know of anything being done in Venezuela to change life there doesn't mean much unless you really know what you're talking about. Here is a list, which has been mentioned many times before, of ongoing programs available right now:

Robinson Mission
This mission was launched on July 1, 2003, and it was used to pull millions of Venezuelans out of the shadows of ignorance.

Robinson mission is the most important civil and military operation ever launched in Venezuela’s history. This mission uses volunteers to teach reading, writhing and basic math to more than 1.5 million Venezuelans who were illiterate. Each educational district gave their support for the implementation of this mission, as well as the Venezuelan armed forces.

On October 28, 2005, Venezuela was officially declared illiteracy-free territory by the UNESCO. A total of 1,482,543 Venezuelans learned to read and write; they were helped by 128,967 teachers in 136,041 classrooms. Many other governments, heads of states, personalities and organizations praised this mission.

There are currently 11,700 Venezuelans registered for the new phase of this mission.

It is worth mentioning that the Bolivarian government had the will to eradicate illiteracy. This is the first time an effort of these characteristics is put in motion and this experience could be taken into other countries in the region.

Robinson II mission is called “I can continue” and it aims to provide ongoing basic education courses to those Venezuelans who have not completed their elementary-level education. There are currently 1,468,967 Venezuelans in this mission, helped by 104,171 teachers in 99,171 classrooms.

Ribas Mission
This mission was born on October 16, 2003, and it provides remedial high school level classes to millions of Venezuelans who were forced to dropout from high school. It iis named after independence hero José Félix Ribas. This mission is sponsored by the Oil and Energy ministry, as well as state-owned Pdvsa.

The goal is for this mission to be a continuation of Robinson II mission.

From 2003 to January, 2006, the Bolivarian government has helped 885,410 Venezuelans enter this mission. There are currently 578,668 Venezuelans studying in this mission with the help of 32,167 teachers, 5,177 coordinators at 8,306 school facilities nationwide. There are 32,291 classrooms and 173,834 students have received scholarships.


Sucre Mission
Sucre Mission was launched in September, 2003. The Ministry of Higher Education is in charge of this project and carries it out all around the country. The Bolivarian University of Venezuela (UBV, Spanish acronym) opens its doors to thousands of students who began to study in classrooms that were the luxurious offices of oil oligarchs.

This program’s goal is to boost the institutional synergy and community participation in order to guarantee and provide access to higher education to all high school students.

So far, this program has registered 472,363 high school graduates, 429,215 of which have been assisted and 318,381 have finished the University Introductory Program. A total of 330,346 high school graduates have registered in the education programs. Also, the mission has granted 96,412 scholarships ($100) to the poorest students, and it is checking other 2,968 scholarships.

Likewise, 10,212 teachers work for the education programs and 1,107 university villages are distributed all around the country. These examples are a proof of the determination and strategy of the State to cancel a social debt. Also, this program guarantees access to higher education to all Venezuelans.


Barrio Adentro Mission
Since April, 2003, the national government’s main objective is to shape a health network through providing a free service to the poor sector of the population. This is why Barrio Adentro Mission I was launched.

This mission’s general objective is to provide access to health care assistance to 60 percent of the excluded population through the construction of 8,000 Popular Medical Centers, to provide a doctor to 250 families (1,200 people), to increase the life expectancy rate of the population and to contribute to the development, growth and ageing with a good standard of life.

Barrio Adentro Mission I has made an important progress in this sense by providing 162,012,583 people with medical assistance, 14,716,325 people with dental assistance and 3,811,741 people with eye assistance, by saving 31,063 lives, by giving 375,144 glasses, and by constructing 1,012 medical centers.

Barrio Adentro Mission II was launched on June 12, 2005. This mission opened 30 Integral Diagnosis Centers and 30 Integral Rehabilitation Rooms all around the country. These centers have make possible to perform 3,936,874 lab tests, 535,631 emergency surgeries, 775,690 ultrasounds, 285,415 X-Rays, 324,936 electrocardiograms, 108 operations, 55,499 endoscopies, 1,064,339 rehabilitation traements.

Also, 200 Integral Diagnosis Centers (CDI, Spanish acronym) and Integral Rehabilitation Rooms (SRI, Spanish acronym) have been opened during these last months. 103 are already finished and they are in the endowment phase. 704 are still under construction.

Likewise, Barrio Adentro III Mission is already working. This mission has to do with the strengthening of the hospital networks all around the country in order to meet the demand of Barrio Adentro II (CDI and SRI). This project is known as People’s Hospitals since it implies the modernization of hospital centers with medical and electromechanical equipment.

Barrio Adentro Mission (Sports)
This program began in February 2004 and its goal is assisting the sport skills of students, senior citizens, pregnant women, people with disabilities and all people wishing to improve their standard of life and health.

So far, 150,504,060 people (including all sports programs) have registered in this program. 43,976,715 people belong to sports, 25,259,343 people to physical activities at school, 980,574 people are training, 480,593 consultations and 40,417,071 recreation activities have taken place, 31,663,978 sport programs have been carried out and 7,726,786 people are registered in therapeutic sports.

The goal of this mission is to take care of national sports through sport assistance centers located in each municipality and through the Training Schools for Sport Talents (one per state), specifically for high performance sport.

Vuelvan Caras Mission
Vuelvan Caras Mission’s goal is to provide vocational training for work. People graduating from different missions must gradually incorporate into the country’s economic production process and this is fulfilled through Vuelvan Caras Mission. This program represents the claiming for our knowledge and our creating potential and it serves the transformation of the socioeconomic model proposed by the government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

Since January, 2004, 6,814 cooperatives have been shaped, 130 Endogenous Development Centers are working, and there are 5,627 financed cooperatives and 264,720 graduates. The funds for these cooperatives amount to $ 423,914.

Mercal Mission
This program was created to trade and sell food and other essential products like medicines at affordable prices. It is worth mentioning that the Ministry of Food’s goal for 2005 was to set up 6,000 sale points; this represents 14,539,300 people benefiting from this program.

Also, 6,004 Soup Kitchens are working; these benefits 900,600 people by giving them free meals. These meals are given to the poorest sectors of the population. Regarding nutrition and protection, 1,374,312 people living in extreme poverty have benefited from this proram.

Thanks to the products of the Corporation for Agrofood Supply and services (CASA, Spanish Acronym) and Mercal (markets), people can save up to 34 percent in comparison with the prices regulated by the State and 37 percent in comparison with the market prices.

Guaicaipuro Mission
This mission’s goal is to restore human rights to numerous indigenous communities. This program was launched in August 2004 and it has handed over 21 communal land titles to an indigenous population of 6,769 people.

The government has carried out a total of 61 projects, which represents an amount of more than 2 million dollars. The national government has financed 32 projects for a total of 600,000 dollars. Guaicaipuro Mission represents the restoration of constitutional rights to indigenous people, as well as economic development, land demarcation, strengthening of their identity, language, education, habitat and health.


Zamora Mission
Mission Zamora’s main goal is to hand over land titles to farmers in order to guarantee the food offer for the have-nots and to bet for social economy and endogenous development. This mission is linked with Mercal.

Since January, 2005, the government has granted 68,528 future land titles. This represents an area of 7,222,880 acres, apart from the 80 awarded titles that represent an area of 87,739 acres. There are 48 Zamora Ranches, representing a total of 56,994 acres.

Culture Mission
Culture Mission has worked since July, 2005 and it is a new kind of university system; that is, people graduate as Teachers in Culture. The student fee is about $230 per year. This mission has 70 tutors, 328 university teachers.

Negra Hipólita Mission
This mission is one of the newest created by the national government. It was launched on January 14, 2006, in order to fight poverty, misery and social exclusion; thus, the government begins a new stage in the fight against these calamities.

Currently, Negra Hipólita Mission is a fact that represents the commitment to set Venezuela free from misery. Also, it is a very important effort aimed to defeat the worse kind of exclusion: poverty. The assistance is aimed at children, adolescents, adults and the elderly living in the streets, in extreme poverty, and drug-addicted individuals.
(snip/)

http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/ven/web/2006/missions/social_missions.html

[Egnever]

243. Thats a pretty amazing list.

Thank you for posting that. I have to admit to ignorance of what chavez is really doing down there. But I do like him sticking his finger in Bushes eye.

From the looks of that list though he is making some amazing changes there.

[me b zola]

117. "Idiot" was not the point that you were trying to make with your post

Your response to being called on your initial laughable post was to post a nonsequitur.

I've seen this pattern with other posters, particuarly in Chavez threads. It really is an obsession with you guys.

[manic expression]

120. Chavez is not

regardless of your insipid assertions. He is doing great things for the people of Venezuela. Check the facts on the poverty rate, check the facts on the clinics that are being set up, check the facts and maybe you'll get somewhere.

As another poster noted, you tried to say that Chavez is a dictator because he wore military attire. However, your logic would then have to say that Bush is a similarly totalitarian dictator in all regards.

Nice try.

[Walt Disney]

145. While boy george may have worn his silly little flight suit once,

Chavez even wears his on official state visits. Indeed, like most fascists, Chavez is at home in a militaristic environment.

[manic expression]

151. Now we're qualifying?

Who cares when and why they wear it? You really are squirming now, as your argument has not a shred of support. You think someone is a fascist simply because they wear military outfits, but you try to excuse it when your own head of state does the same. Indeed, like most reactionaries, your foolish and misled ideas are easily shown for what they are: insane and wrong. Perhaps you would like to try another similarly ridiculous and pathetic argument?





"I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you're only going to kill a man." - Ernesto Che Guevara (just before he was shot and murdered)

[Zhade]

163. Freepers don't like facts.

NT!

[Phx_Dem]

222. Yea, he grew the per capita GDP 1% in only 8 years!!!!!!!

[1932]

229. GDP was up 17.9% in '04 and 9.3% in '05.

8 years??? He's only been president for 6.5%. The first year they spent rewriting the constitution. The next three they spent trying to get the government out of the huge deficit they'd been in thanks to the Chicago School economic program imposed by the previous government (and they had to survice national bankruptcy while suffering from an oil co. management-led national strike designed to make the economy scream, make people miserable and force the collapse of the government).

I agree with Amartya Sen that GDP is a poor measure for development, but Venezuela is doing fine by that measure (and they're doing great by Amartya Sen's preferred measures: literacy, poverty, hunger).

Table 1 shows the number of Venezuelan households and people living in poverty from 1997 to 2005, at half-year intervals. The household poverty rate declined sharply from 55.6 percent in the beginning of 1997, as a result of the relatively strong growth (6.4 percent) of that year. It continued to decline, as the economy slowed to a standstill in 1998, and reached 42.8 percent in the first half of 1999, when President Chavez took office. There was some further decline in the poverty rate to 39 percent in 2001. But in 2002 poverty began to rise, surging to a peak of 55.1 percent for the second half of 2003. This was driven overwhelmingly by the oil strike (December 2002 – February 2003), which crippled the economy and caused a sharp downturn. Capital flight and political instability prior to the oil strike, including an unsuccessful military coup in April of 2002, also contributed to a severe recession that saw GDP decline by 28.1 percent from the fourth quarter of 2001 to the first quarter of 2003.<5>

The economy then began to recover and grew very rapidly– 17.9 percent in 2004, and 9.3 percent in 2005. As a result of this recovery, the poverty rate dropped to 37.9 percent for the second half of 2005, the latest data available.

Thus if we compare the latest available data to the start of the present government, the household poverty rate fell nearly 5 percentage points – from 42.8 percent in the beginning of 1999 to 37.9 percent in the second half of 2005. The household poverty rate was thus reduced by 12.9 percent. Measuring individuals instead of households, the poverty rate decreased by 6.3 percentage points –from 50 percent of the population to 43.7 percent. That was a 14.4 percent reduction in poverty. Since the economy has continued to grow rapidly this year (first quarter growth came in at 9.4 percent), the poverty rate is almost certainly significantly lower today.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1740

[Phx_Dem]

233. I don't know who's #s are right

Look at this chart:

http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/vengdp.htm

looks like about 8% in 11 years.

[PeaceProgProsp]

235. Do you know what that line on the graph indicates?

That's not the GDP. That's the percentage increase (or decrease, if less than 0) of the GDP. So, beginning in the middle of the year they wrote the new constitution, Venezuela had positive GDP growth every quarter except during the year of the coup and the during the management-led strikes (the purpose of which were to hurt the economy).

GDP growth hasn't been only 8%. It has probably averaged about 8% over the period of Chavez's term, which is about 800% better than my savings account!

[Phx_Dem]

236. interesting way to look at it..

look at the x-axis, see the dates? March '95 about 2% growth, March '06 10% for a difference of 8%, OVER THAT TIME PERIOD. In case you don't know, that's a pretty pathetic growth rate (though I am not stating that it's all chavez's fault).

It would be nice to know when the chart starts, so we have a better idea about the overall change.

[PeaceProgProsp]

237. I think Venezuela has the best GDP growth rate in South America

over the last 5 years and they have very low inflation. So they're doing pretty well.

[Phx_Dem]

241. Except for Argentina

it looks like the outlook is pretty good, I do hope that Chavez is sucessful, but he has a ways to go.

http://www.latinbusinesschronicle.com/reports/reports/042406/gdp.htm

[PeaceProgProsp]

244. That was just over one year, no? Latin America's avg is 3.8%, no?

So it looks like, by your average annual rate of 8% visual estimate, Venezuela has doubled the regional average.

Not bad.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

118. Are you serious?

Chavez and Castro are the OPPOSITES of Hitler and Mussolini. The fact that you would have the audacity to think about comparing them is absolutely ludicrous.

Castro and Chavez have made sure their people have a fair share, access to a decent life, the things they need and deserve and more.

If you knew ANYTHING about the subject, you would know that while America is guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Cuban constitution OUTLAWS GENOCIDE. It also guarantees equal rights for women, something your "land of the free" lacks.

This is not to mention the countless and innumerable things that have gone to helping the people of Cuba and Venezuela and beyond. Cuba's medical statistics are on par and sometimes BETTER THAN that of the US. Cuba sends a GREAT amount of doctors to other countries to help the people (instead of the rich, as Uncle Sam does). Chavez is decreasing the poverty level in Venezuela, making medical care accessible to all, fighting for the betterment of workers over the oligarchy and more IN SPITE of the elitists who would rather continue to oppress the people of Venezuela. The media routinely insults Chavez, sometimes with racial insinuations.

However, since when did reactionaries who oppose progress care about reality?

Read up on my other response, the facts laugh in the face of your baseless and asinine accusations.

[Walt Disney]

146. No, my friend, they are identical; they are all fascist dictators.

And the remainder of your post is a joke. I find the comparison of Cuban witch doctors to the advanced, 21st century medical care that is offered in the US to be particularly amusing.

Furthermore, poverty levels in Venezuela are pretty much the same now as when the fascist punk assumed control.

Chavez & Castro are surely laughing their :rofl: off at yet another useful idiot.

[manic expression]

153. You're beyond wrong. They are opposites

Are you trying to tell me that you think Cuban doctors are "witch doctors"?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:spray:

This just shows that you have not the slightest shred of an idea about the subject. Cuban doctors are fully professional, who use the "advanced, 21st century medical care" to help the people.

"Furthermore, poverty levels in Venezuela are pretty much the same now as when the fascist punk assumed control."

That is a blatant lie. Even with the lock outs and the coup by the oligarchy to try to bring down Chavez, he has brought down the poverty level of Venezuela.

"There has also been a 6.4% drop since 1999 in official unemployment and 6% in the poverty rates for households and there has been improvement in the infant mortality rate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez

Wait, what's this? Reality proves yet another one of you wrong?

Laughable. Just laughable.


Hasta la victoria siempre!

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RagingInMiami]

160. I was in Cuba two weeks ago

Spent a week in Havana. The people are hardly free. They are not allowed to talk to tourists. They are not allowed in the hotels. And only a select few are allowed to use the Internet.

Why does free healthcare, education and housing always have to come at the expense of a police state?

[manic expression]

164. I've heard from people who've been there

not the least of whom posts on this site.

Cubans are allowed to talk to foreigners because I've heard that from Americans who've been there. In addition, I've also heard that they are not afraid to speak their minds. Nice try though.

They're not allowed into hotels? What, is there a huge demand for expensive bed and board from the Cuban citizenry? That doesn't mean a single thing.

Most people in countries with non-first world economies do not have access to the internet.

Furthermore, all that has not come at the expense of a "police state". Do you have any more pathetically insipid points you'd like to make?

[RagingInMiami]

215. Not that I said in a hotel

Because I stayed in a Casa Particular with real Cubans when I was in Havana two weeks ago.

But if I had rented a hotel room, and I wanted to invite Cuban friends into my room, I would have to bribe the front desk clerk because he would not allow it.

That is common knowledge in Havana.



I've heard from people who've been there

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Yeah, that carries a lot of weight.

[Judi Lynn]

167. So sad. Americans who go to Cuba go all over the island.

They can rent bikes, cars, and Winnebago-type vehicles for really getting out in the country. They advertise those things in Canadian magazines in the travel ads there.

There's a DU'er who went all over Cuba and even wrote a book about it. Americans have discussed renting cars and picking up hitchhikers all over the internet on many message boards.

Americans stay in Cuban private homes, and eat at family restaurants. They make friends and continue their friendships over years and years and years. I even read a newspaper article about an American who fell in love with a Cuban he met there, and finally went back there and married her.

I read about some arrangement worked out for Cuban couples spending their wedding nights at the big hotels in Cuba several years ago, for FREE. It's some kind of treat from the government, if I understand it correctly.

I'd bet they discourage hookers from hanging around hotels, however, unlike the days when Havana used to be called "The Whorehouse of the Caribbean."

I've heard in multiple places from American travelers that the cops on the streets do NOT carry guns. Police state? Probably not. They also say it's the safest country they've been in to walk around at night.

We DO have a police problem in this country, however, and to top it off, a population of many, many homeless people, and millions of people and children WITHOUT ANY HEALTHCARE WHATSOEVER.

[AngryAmish]

173. People still go to Cuba for sex

There are hookers and child sex trade. More than before the revolution? I doubt it.

[Judi Lynn]

174. Do you have an link for that? Miami "exiles" and Bush assholes

have been trying to float that crap from the very first year _Bush of his pResidency. They rotate it with several other lies, hoping some idiots will buy it, and they can gain support.

The Cuban Mafia in Miami's days are numbered. They'd better live it up. This country's not going to keep bankrolling them forever.

On edit:

A great DU poster, who lives in Florida, who's been to Cuba multiple times read one of bogus claims placed on a DU thread, and said that there are far, far more whores in Miami than anywhere in Cuba, no comparison.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's one thread which made the rounds in 2004:

Judi Lynn (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-18-04 09:44 AM
Original message
President's sex-tourism allegation riles Cubans
Posted on Sun, Jul. 18, 2004

CUBA
President's sex-tourism allegation riles Cubans

Cubans call President Bush's charge that the island nation has a booming sex business a lie, saying crackdowns have ended the trade.

BY TRACEY EATON

The Dallas Morning News

HAVANA -- Cubans blasted President Bush on Saturday after he accused Fidel Castro of turning the island into a major spot for sex tourism and child prostitution.
''I've never heard anything as pig-filthy as that,'' said Marta Rojas, a celebrated Cuban author. ''The nose of Pinocchio'' -- as some Cubans call Bush -- ``is so long it can't get any longer.''
(snip)

Before the 1959 revolution, the flesh trade thrived. Sex shows and porn palaces flourished, and as many as 100,000 prostitutes may have roamed the streets.

On Friday, Bush told a Tampa crowd that Cuba's sex business was again booming, helping prop up Castro's ``corrupt government.''
(snip)

Some Cubans wonder what country Bush is talking about.

''We don't exploit children for sex,'' said Johana Brito, 18, a computer sciences student. ``It's a lie.''
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/9181438.htm
(Free registration required)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=693292

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AS WELL AS THIS ONE:

Related thread:

ringmastery (1000+ posts) Fri Jul-16-04 08:20 PM
Bush Says Castro Welcomes Sex Tourism

ringmastery (1000+ posts) Fri Jul-16-04 08:20 PM
Original message
Bush Says Castro Welcomes Sex Tourism
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8...

TAMPA, Fla. - President Bush (news - web sites) on Friday accused Fidel Castro (news - web sites) of exploiting Cuba's children by encouraging a sex-tourism industry designed to draw cash to the impoverished nation, comments certain to resonate with Cuban-American voters in the swing state of Florida.

"The regime in Havana, already one of the worst violators of human rights in the world, is adding to its crimes. The dictator welcomes sex tourism," Bush said at a conference on "human trafficking" — forced labor, sex and military service.

Bush's rival, John Kerry (news - web sites), agreed with the president and the Democratic campaign said human trafficking demands a coordinated international response. The Kerry campaign did take issue with the pace of Bush's response, arguing that the president had waited too long — until February of this year — to submit an international pact against trafficking to the Senate.

By combining the human-trafficking issue with his hard-line rhetoric against Castro, Bush hopes to bolster his standing with Cuban-Americans in the state that decided the 2000 election. Friday's trip was Bush's 23rd as president to Florida, and recent polls show the race tied.

Last year, the Bush administration imposed sanctions on Cuba, Burma and North Korea (news - web sites) for failing to take steps to stop such practices. In a report last month, the State Department listed Cuba among 10 nations that engage in human trafficking.

The president said Castro had "bragged about" Cuba's sex industry and he quoted Castro as saying: "Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=690988

[AngryAmish]

175. Your are probably right

My information is purely anecdotal. I knew of a guy who went to Cuba for young girls. And also talking to a Cuban woman I know. Could I be wrong? You bet I could.

[Judi Lynn]

176. More information on why it might be that the prostitution problem has

been transformed:

The rich certainly did come by the boatloads, and many came for the "warm" women, because under Batista, women were denied reasonable employment:
Quote:
Prior to 1959, the only “jobs” available to women were those of domestic servant and prostitute — Cuba was even known as the “whorehouse of the Caribbean.” Since the revolution those “jobs” have been all but completely eliminated, while an continually increasing number of women are entering into the labor force in all fields or taking up positions in government. Cuba has the world’s most advanced system of benefits for mothers-to-be, and free birth control and abortion has been made available to all women. Also, Cuban women are guaranteed a living wage whether they work or not, so they do not have to marry or remain married out of financial considerations.
In Cuba, whether a couple or not, both parents are obligated to support their children. No child is considered illegitimate, and both men and women are responsible for the maintenance of the home.


Yes, Mr. Bonner's warm women didn't really exist after the revolution, as this source states:
Quote:
Cuba, considered to be free of prostitution since the 1960s, is experiencing an increase in prostitution and prostitution tourism as a result of the poor economy. (Jeszs Zzqiga,"Cuba: The Thailand of the Caribbean" Independent Journalists’ Cooperative, 18 June 1998)

The increase, like the small percentage of the population that has fled, (thank you Peak_Plus for pointing out the obvious) was a direct result of being cut off from oil supplies, ALL of Cuba's problems are a result of this and the sanctions.

Regarding women, here are some interesting numbers:

Women In Parliamentary Seats
Haiti 4%
Honduras 6%
Brazil 9%
Colombia 12.2%
United States 14%
Mexico 15.9%
Argentina 31.3%
Cuba 36%

The US is almost as impressive as Columbia. In Cuba, 50% of all skilled workers or professionals (including physicians) are women & 29% of management positions are held by women.
(snip/...)

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic18444.html

[ronnie624]

212. "Before the 1959 revolution,

the flesh trade thrived. Sex shows and porn palaces flourished, and as many as 100,000 prostitutes may have roamed the streets."

Doubtless created and perpetuated by U.S. corporate imperialists so they could practice their proclivities without worrying about arrest or scandal.

"President Bush (news - web sites) on Friday accused Fidel Castro (news - web sites) of exploiting Cuba's children by encouraging a sex-tourism industry designed to draw cash to the impoverished nation, comments certain to resonate with Cuban-American voters in the swing state of Florida."

Such a lying, hypocritical dung heap. I don't believe I've ever heard him mention the goings-on in the Marianas.

[Judi Lynn]

214. Here's a Letter to the Editor which appears to dispell several lies

in one blow, and makes a specific reference to the old "Whorehouse of the Caribbean:"

As a long-time listener and a "Cubaphile", I listened with interest to yesterday's program on the Elian Gonzalez affair. It seems obvious to those who are not obsessed with a hatred of Fidel Castro and Cuba, that the United States government is obliged to return the child to his rightful father and to put political interest aside and crack down on the Miami Mafia, the sons, daughters, nieces and nephews of the murderous Batista regime which ran Cuba as the "whorehouse of the Caribbean" for so many years, many of whom have never set foot in Cuba but have grown rich in the United States.

My wife and I have visited Cuba six times. Our second last visit took place two weeks before the visit by the Pope. We do not go there to bask on the beach at Varadero, although we have done that. We have stayed several times in the City of Havana, on one occasion as a result of my wife's having been invited to a congress of English teachers. We have been able to roam the city freely, taking as many pictures as we wanted, have visited people in their homes, have talked to people from all walks of life (except the military) and have learned of the complex society which is Cuba.

On our last visit, we stayed in Santa Lucia, a developing resort area in Camaguey province, and rented a car for the better part of a week, during which we roamed the countryside, visiting small towns and the capitol city of Camaguey. We were treated warmly by the people we came into contact with and have many fond memories of the country. We will be visiting again, next January.
( snip/...)

http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/archive/letters000416.html

(These people are in Canada, and are not laboring under the impression they've got to foam at the mouth when they hear Cuba mentioned!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting remarks from an American Christian leader who visited Cuba, which mentions "Whorehouse of the Caribbean!"

Special Report
“Three Cubas: 1959, 1977, 2004”
-James Armstrong

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In January, my wife and I joined a 30-person ecumenical delegation led by Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches. The purpose was to meet with Cuban church leaders and share in the celebration of the consecration of the new Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Havana. It was my third trip to Cuba.

1959
My first visit was in January 1959. On January 1, Fulgencio Batista, the notorious and corrupt president of Cuba, fled his country. Two days later Che Guevara entered Havana and Fidel Castro entered Santiago de Cuba as the revolutionary “barbudos” came down out of the Sierra Maestra mountains to seize the reins of government.

Three weeks later I flew to Havana to visit United Methodist missionaries and dedicate an educational building our Indianapolis congregation had built. The island was reverberating with the sounds of joy and hope. The tyrant Batista was gone. No longer would a Mafia-controlled Havana and a country underwritten by U.S. banks and commercial interests be considered “the whorehouse of the Caribbean.” Today prostitution, gambling, drugs and violent crime are virtually non-existent in Havana.

A few months after I dedicated the building it was “nationalized” and converted into a school by the Castro government. The new regime took over hundreds of buildings like it across the island as they were integrated into the nation’s school system. Today Cuba has the highest literacy rate of any Latin American country.
(snip/...)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EGXWmGEkL-cJ:www.zionsherald.org/Mar2004_specialreport.html+Special+Report+%2B+%E2%80%9CThree+Cubas%20<img%20src=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another article, from the Guardian, which refers to pre-revolutionary Cuba as a "brothel:"

The Guardian December 1, 1999

Think before you drink:
What you should know about Bacardi


US liquor company Bacardi launched a copy of Cuba's famous Havana
Club rum on the US market in 1996. The bogus Havana Club is
produced by Bacardi in the Bahamas.

Bacardi marketing propaganda falsely depicts the Cuba of the '40s and '50s
as a place of glamour and sophistication "where all things blended together
to create the perfect atmosphere, where elegance and good taste reigned...
Havana was an attraction for tourists and dignitaries the world over."

In reality, pre-revolutionary Havana was a brothel and casino for US
playboys, the Mafia and a rich Cuban elite.

While Bacardi amassed assets worth US$67 million (1960 prices), the
majority of Cuba's largely rural population — including Bacardi's own
sugar workers — lived in shacks without running water or electricity, a
third were unemployed or semi-employed and 43 percent were illiterate
(snip/...)

http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve1/982bac.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last of all, a smarmy collection of information bits which were distributed to Americans planning to go to Cuba for entertainment purposes BEFORE the revolution in 1959. This is a real piece of history.

It's important to note that Cuba was also used as a "shore leave" destination for the U.S. Navy at that time.

http://cuban-exile.com/menu1/%21entertain.html

These were actually published articles from that time:
SIN - With a Rhumba Beat
Prostitution, Politics, Casinos Cuba 1950

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_201-225/doc0208.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Batista threw open the door to U.S. crime. When he was finally thrown out, he moved to Spain. Jeb Bush appointed Batista's grandson to the Florida Supreme Court: Raoul Cantero. You can see how much distance the _Bushes put between themselves and the depraved, debauched, brutal, murderous, torture-happy, death squad running, Batista-controlled Cuba.

[RagingInMiami]

216. I am one of those Americans who made loads of Cuban friends in Cuba

But it gets really annoying when your Cuban friends are constantly stopped for their papers.

[manic expression]

119. Facts on Cuba

Enjoy:

Before the 1959 revolution
• 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
• More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
• 85% had no inside running water.
• 91% had no electricity.
• There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
• More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
• Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
• The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
• 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
• 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
• 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
• 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
• Racial discrimination was widespread.
• The public school system had deteriorated badly.
• Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
• Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. All of the people of Cuba worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.

Poll: Americans don't support Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770

(thanks to Mika for that)

[Walt Disney]

147. Should read "Cuban Propaganda." For that is all it is.

[manic expression]

154. And what facts do you have to back that up?

Right, none. I thought so. Until you have some actual evidence to back your assertions up, you have no argument.

Sorry, better luck next time.

[RagingInMiami]

162. There are two embargos

The one we impose and the one Castro imposes on his people. Both feed off each other. Both repress the Cuban people.

I have no doubt that if the U.S. lifts its embargo, and Castro insists on keeping his embargo (keeping the police state alive), then Castro will fall.

And Cuba might have thousands of doctors now, but they are forced to drive taxi cabs to make ends meet.

[manic expression]

165. That really is funny

"...and the (embargo) Castro imposes on his people."

Yeah, because Castro makes sure no foreign trade is allowed in Cuba.......

:rofl:

That is in the running for most ludicrous point this month.

Secondly, what is this "police state" you keep insisting on? Cuba is nothing of the sort, and your lack of support for this indefensible point shows that quite well.

The doctors who drive cabs do so to supplement their income when they aren't working in the medical field. Cuba's health system is based on prevention unlike the US' system.

[Judi Lynn]

168. Right! That's the LAST thing they want! Keep those things which would

help Cubans, like medical equipment, and computers, and cars, and medicine, and, oh, say, FOOD, and building materials, and simple niceties, like soap, toothpaste, etc. (the alternative being importing them from great distances at enormous expense, not to mention the exterritorial aspects of the embargo legislation which forbid foreign companies which use products containing any American-owned or American-made components from selling to Cuba) OUT OF CUBA! God forbid useful, far cheaper products should EVER make their way to that country. It's the old REVERSE EMBARGO, don't you know!

[RagingInMiami]

192. The doctors make $30 a month

Theyt make that in one night driving a cab.

The "two embargos" quote is how one Cuban phrased it to me when I visited Havana two weeks ago. They are not allowed to leave the island. They are not allowed in the hotels nor are they allowed to associate with tourists. And most of them are not allowed to access the Internet.

[genieroze]

128. Here's a draft dodging one

[saigon68]

136. The Chimpanzee close to home

[Walt Disney]

148. Yeah, silly boy, but with Chavez, it's a way of life.

[Ken Burch]

137. Oh come off it Walt...Fidel's not a saint

but there's no way you can compare him to Hitler and Mussolini.

In terms of an actual body count he's probably comparable to the leaders of OUR revolution.

[Walt Disney]

143. That's only because he has had a smaller population to "work" with.

[Ken Burch]

155. No, its also because he never wanted to wipe an entire race or religion

Off the face of the Earth.

Fidel could be brutal, but you couldn't call him psychotic in the Hitler/Mussolini sense.

You really need to back down on that particular comparison. It just doesn't hold up, and I'm not even a Fidelista.

[Phx_Dem]

223. are you related to benburch?

just wondering....

[leesa]

149. Walt, I've never seen him in anything but a suit or shirt/pants. Nice try

[outeramerica]

8. Chavez is not a socialist he is a dictator

Some of your comments are completely off of the wall. Chavez is a former soldier, a commando,, one whom attempted a military coup against the legally(as legal as it gets in Venezuela) elected Gov in Venezuela, prior to coming to power. If he is trying to better the poor why does he need to spend so much money on arms? When was the last time a war was fought in South America? How do arms help the poor? How does this have anything to do with socialism?
Chavez has and is destroying Venezuelan democracy he has done many things similar to the chimp. He has changed teh judicial, fixed the legislative and arranged the executive powers to his liking.

Venezuela has been and remains an incredibly corrupt nation. He has not changed that in fact, just in word. I would support a contry's atonomy but not with a jackass like Chavez leading the country. It appears to me that you are grabbing on to him to spite * and the neo-cons, not for real reasons. Venezuela is a very dangerous place to live much more so than it was before Chavez, they are suffering a brain drain with Doctors and other educated people fleeing the country to get away from this asshole and live free. I may not support Shrub but I certainly will not support another dictator clothing himself in a "Socialist revoultion".

[cantstandbush]

11. I'd rather have a dictator for the poor than one for the wealthy like Bush

nt

[outeramerica]

13. Would you really

Think about what you just said. You would accept a dictator for the poor. What about the middle class which is what in my opinion allows democracy to work. Chavez as well as Bush are eliminating this class. A dictator is not good no matter how you look at it. Maybe you should post more on "Underground DIctatorship".

[ProudDad]

21. Right, a dictator

who won 8 elections in his country by wide margins.

Bad dictator!!! :sarcasm:

Who, by your bizarre definition of a dictator, is NOT a dictator?

[jerry611]

62. wide margins indicates a dictatorship

Once Hitler was established, he had approval ratings in the upper 90's. Saddam Hussein was re-elected with results in the 90% range.

Putin was elected with more than 70% of the vote and people were claiming voter fraud and voter intimidation.

Why isn't Chavez held up to the same scrutiny? Because he's a socialist that helps the poor?

Screw civil liberties. Screw democracy. All that matters is helping the poor. Right?

[redqueen]

64. Screw civil liberties? What civil liberties is Chavez taking away?

How is democracy in Venezuela any worse than it is here?

[jerry611]

81. Freedom of speech is gone

He and his party passed a law last year that sentences anyone to 40 months in prison if they publically criticize government policy.

There is also voter intimidation. He has merged the local police to be under federal control. So now he controls everything the police does. And the way the police has violently reacted to critics of the government...there is a growing state of fear of opposing the leadership.

He has stacked the Supreme Court. So now every single decision will be in his favor.

He is systematically expanding his control and his power throughout the entire goverment. The opposition parties are shrinking. This is exactly what dictators do.

[redqueen]

82. I've seen these claims made before, and seen them rebutted.

If you have a source with new, verifiable information, please share it.

[jerry611]

95. Name one vocal oppoent in Venezuela

Is anyone in Venezuela opposing the government?

In London, we hear people opposing Blair. In France, we hear people who oppose Chirac. Even in Russia we can hear people who oppose Putin. And everyone in the world can here people opposing Bush.

But do we hear people in Venezuela opposing Chavez? Do we hear people in Iran opposing Ahmadinejad? Not a peep. Why? Because there is censorship of the media, and expression is suppressed. I find it terribly hard to believe that in a country like Venezuela that 100% of the population is in full support of Hugo Chavez.

[redqueen]

99. Whatever happened to El Universal?

Are their op-eds no longer critical of the Chavez administration? Oh wait, I just checked, and yes, they are.

And whatever happened to Maria Corina Machado? Is she retired now?




As I expected, no proof, no new information... nothing... just more requests for more information.

Why is this 'tactic' so popular? :roll:

[Judi Lynn]

102. You poor, poor thing! Don't you ever READ?

We can't do all your work FOR YOU.

You have the obligation to inform yourself, as we do.



Diego Bautista Urbaneja, Enrique Mendoza, Mary Pil Hernandez
only a few of the opposition leaders



Maria Corina Machado, visiting _Bush

As for your desperate attempt to color the Venezuelan news media as being oppressed, oh, my GOD! You must have been away from the planet for ages, or resting comfortably in a "home," to have avoided any awareness of the complete involvement of the Venezuelan media in the run-up to the coup, and in suppressing all news of the coup altogether, to the point of running old movies, etc., installing a complete news blackout, to keep the Venezuelan population from knowing what had happened.

How Hate Media Incited The Coup Against President Chávez

Venezuela’s press power

Never in Latin American history has the media been so directly involved in a political coup. Venezuela’s ’hate media’ controls 95% of the airwaves and has a near-monopoly over newsprint, and it played a major part in the failed attempt to overthrow the president, Hugo Chávez, in April. Although tensions in the country could easily spill into civil war, the media is still directly encouraging dissident elements to overthrow the democratically elected president - if necessary by force.

by Maurice Lemoine

~snip~
Scaremongers
"Free" opinions published in print -"Time for a change of government" or "Time to overthrow this government" (7) - were reinforced by dubious manipulation of the broadcast media. On 5 April two TV presenters gave their own commentary on a strike of petrol stations that was linked to the PDVSA conflict: "Have you remembered to fill up? Hurry, because tomorrow there won’t be a drop left in the country." By encouraging motorists to rush out to buy petrol, they provoked unnecessary chaos, though the strike was only partial and the stations were still receiving supplies.

On 7 April Ortega and Carmona announced that there was to be a general strike. The editor of El Nacional, Miguel Enrique Otero, stood shoulder to shoulder with them and spoke on behalf of the press: "We are all involved in this struggle in defence of the right to information." Two days later the BPV, which had just been visited by the new US ambassador, Charles Shapiro, decided to back the strike. From then on the television companies broadcast live from the headquarters of the PDVSA-Chuao, the designated assembly point for opposition demonstrations.

"Take to the streets" thundered El Nacional on 10 April (in an unattributed editorial). "Ni un paso atrás! (not one step backwards)" responded the hoardings on Globovisión. Another TV company broadcast: "Venezuelans, take to the streets on Thursday 11 April at 10am. Bring your flags. For freedom and democracy. Venezuela will not surrender. No one will defeat us." The call to overthrow the head of state became so obvious that the government applied Article 192 of the telecommunications law. More than 30 times -for all television and radio channels - it requisitioned 15-20 minutes’ air time to broadcast its views. But the broadcasters divided the screen in two and continued to urge rebellion.

On 11 April military and civilian press conferences calling for the president’s resignation marked the next phase. On RCTV, Ortega called on the opposition to march on Miraflores (the presidential palace). At about 4pm, when the scale of the conspiracy was apparent, the authorities gave the order to block the frequencies used by the private channels. Globovisión, CMT and Televen went off air for a few moments before resuming their broadcasts using satellite or cable. All screens broadcast an image that had been edited to show armed counter-demonstrators firing on "the crowd of peaceful demonstrators". As a result the Bolivarian Circles, the social organisation of Chávez supporters, were blamed for deaths and injuries (8).

The conspirators, including Carmona, met at the offices of Venevisión. They stayed until 2am to prepare "the next stage", along with Rafael Poleo (owner of El Nuevo Pais) and Gustavo Cisneros, a key figure in the coup. Cisneros, a multimillionaire of Cuban origin and the owner of Venevisión, runs a media empire - Organización Diego Cisneros. It has 70 outlets in 39 countries (9). Cisneros is a friend of George Bush senior: they play golf together and in 2001 the former US president holidayed in Cisneros’s Venezuelan property. Both are keen on the privatisation of the PDVSA (10). Otto Reich, US assistant secretary of state for Interamerican affairs, admits to having spoken with Cisneros that night (11).
(snip/...)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rfkySFDr6CEJ:www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6705.htm+%22Tal+Cual%22++and+coup&hl=en&start=5



Gustavo Cisneros, Cuban-Venezuelan media mogul and _Bush family friend

[Piotr]

138. What about Human Rights violations and voting process irregularities...

...described in the OAS and EU Electoral Mission reports for December 4 2005 (namely, the apparent widespread lack of trust in the electoral process)?

I posted these in another thread, but they went unanswered.

"
Reports by Amnesty International on Human Rights violations in Venezuela including torture:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15354.shtml
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/venezuela/document ....
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/ven-summary-eng

In Spanish: number of documented reports of torture received by the Defensoría del Pueblo in Venezuela:
http://www.defensoria.gov.ve/detalle.asp?sec=140505&id= ...

An OAS report on torture in Venezuela dating from 2003:
http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/venezuela2003eng/chapter ...

From that report:

"357. The national NGO, Red de Apoyo por la Justicia y la Paz documented 145 cases of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, perpetrated by officials of the state security services between 1999 and the first half of 2003.<163> According to the General Coordinator of the organization, Mr. Alfredo Ruiz, the figures given in the report show that during the period documented there was a large number of violations of the right to humane treatment, the vast majority of which remain unpunished.<164>

358. According to a report by the same organization, the methods of torture and other inhuman and degrading treatment used in all of these cases are both physical and psychological. The most common are to threaten to kill both the victim and his or her relatives; verbal aggression; blows and kicks; to throw them down stairs or against the floor and walls; to move them blindfolded and with hands and feet bound; isolation without food; and to leave them naked. Other methods employed are immersion of the head in clean or dirty water, burns and sexual torture. Furthermore, mistreated people are normally held incommunicado for almost a week and denied access to medical and legal services during that time. The report mentions that, according to the statistics analyzed, the populations worst affected are males aged 14 to 24 and 25 to 34.<165>"

From the Human Rights Watch overview of Venezuela page (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258 .... ):

"Police Killings

The killing of three innocent students in the Kennedy district of Caracas on June 27, 2005, highlighted the violence and lawlessness of Venezuela’s police forces. Leonardo González, Erick Montenegro, and Edgar Quintero died after police from the Directorate of Military Intelligence (DIM) and the Criminal Investigations Police (Cicpc) opened fire on their car when they were returning from the university. The police reportedly confused the students’ car with a vehicle they were pursuing, and opened fire when it failed to heed an order to stop. González’s body was found in the street near their car, with a bullet wound in the eye. According to an eyewitness, men in civilian clothes wearing hoods captured Montenegro and Quintero in an alley, made them lie on the ground, and shot them in cold blood. The police reportedly planted weapons on the scene to make it appear that they had been fired on first.

Hundreds of police executions have been reported over the past several years, although the problem long predates the current administration. While the Attorney General’s Office and the human rights ombudsman have denounced these abuses, little progress has been made in prosecuting the police responsible or introducing the reforms necessary to combat the practice. In August 2005, the Attorney General’s Office announced that it was investigating 5,520 presumed extrajudicial executions—involving 6,127 victims—committed between 2000 and July 31, 2005. Of 5,997 police and military personnel allegedly implicated, prosecutors have filed charges against 517, and at this writing only eighty-eight had been convicted (1.47 percent). "

"Venezuela: Torture and brutal repression by the army". Includes two images.
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200403 ...

An article on torture in Venezuela, dating to April 2004.
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=14835


The OAS' Inter American Commission for Human Rights recently published their latest report on Venezuelan Human Rights, too. This is the same organization that published the report from the first link above in 2003.

http://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/2005eng/chap.4d.htm
"

The reason the word torture is highlighted so often is because the original post was a response to the claim "there is no evidence of torture in Venezuela".

[BrotherBuzz]

171. Venezuelan Opposition Case Thrown Out of International Criminal Court

Apparently there was no evidence of torture or human rights violations beyond allegations by opposition groups. :shrug:

Venezuelan Opposition Case Thrown Out of International Criminal Court

Friday, Feb 17, 2006

By: Alex Holland – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela, February 17, 2006—The International Criminal Court (ICC) rejected an appeal by Venezuelan opposition groups to prosecute the Venezuelan government for human rights violations. Chief Prosecutor for the ICC, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said the charges had a, “lack of precision as well as internal and externali nconsistencies in the information.”

<snip>

On February 9, the ICC issued a statement saying the court was unable to move forward with a formal investigation. This was because the information provided did not match the allegations.

First, the ICC said no evidence had been given to the court, “to believe that war crimes have been committed.” For the information provided relating to crimes against humanity, the ICC said the, “numerous” factual problems meant it was not, “reliable.”

Problems included naming the same person repeatedly on lists of alleged murder victims. Many claims were made without names or dates. There were also, “frequent inconsistencies in victims’ names, ages, and location of alleged incidents."

<more>

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1900

....

Carter has the last word on election irregularities

The Carter Center concluded that while the election irregularities would not have changed the 2000 presidential outcome, in which Hugo Chávez won with 60 percent of the vote, the significant politicization of the elections and organizational deficiencies contributed to a lack of confidence in the process and the non-presidential results, thus leading the Center to characterize the July 2000 elections as flawed.

http://cartercenter.org/activities/showdoc.asp?submenu=activities&countryID=87

Oh, Carter gave the 2004 presidential recall referendum a clean bill of health despite MORE accusations of fraud by the opposition.

[ronnie624]

188. Exactly.

The Chavez detractors always point to the allegations as if they alone prove their nonexistent point, and they never can indicate the portion in the AI report that implicates the policies of the Chavez government in human rights abuses. They simply post the link hoping no one will actually read it, as if the posting itself is supposed to impress. Very dishonest.

[Piotr]

193. Amnesty International: "Venezuela: Human Rights under threat"

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530052004.

[BrotherBuzz]

195. That's a 2004 report

Do you have anything dated after February 9, 2006 from Amnesty International that documents human rights violations in Venezuela?

Allegations by opposition groups, that's all there is - get it? :shrug:

[Piotr]

197. The 2006 Country Report

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/ven-summary-eng

[BrotherBuzz]

198. Overview - Covering events from January - December 2005

Do you have anything dated after February 9, 2006 from Amnesty International that documents human rights violations in Venezuela?

[Judi Lynn]

199. Here's the summary. I don't see anything which would implicate

Hugo Chavez. There are references to police problems. You may remember that during the violence surrounding the coup, the Caracas police were under the control of the Caracas mayor, who was the sworn enemy of Hugo Chavez, Alfredo Pena. I have read there are opposition mayors in other towns, as well.

The summary:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/ven-summary-eng

Here's what was written under "Human rights defenders:"

Human rights defenders

Human rights defenders continued to face harassment and intimidation.

There were concerns over the safety of members of the human rights organization COFAVIC (Comité de Familiares de Víctimas de los Sucesos de Febrero-Marzo de 1989), after their police protection was withdrawn in March. The organization had made a public statement which criticized the authorities for not bringing to justice the perpetrators of human rights violations committed during confrontations in 1989 between the opposition, the police and the military. In November 2002, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights had ordered Venezuela to protect members of COFAVIC after they suffered threats and acts of intimidation.
(snip)

They're referring to an event which happened in 1989.

Hugo Chavez was not elected until 1998, 9 years later. Odd, isn't it?

[Piotr]

201. And yet, these abuses spoken of before have been reported under Chávez's

8-year tenure. Even after Peña was dismissed in 2002.

Even when most of the mayors and governors in Venezuela in the past three years are members of Chávez's party or its allies.

[Piotr]

203. So eight years with these things going on mean nothing to you..?

Even if Chávez isn't at the source of them, his negligience in rooting them out - over eight years, and after decades with the problem- is still controversial, isn't it?

No, I don't have any reports dating from February 9, 2006; They come out next year. If I did, would you ask me for reports dating from yesterday?

[1932]

230. His negligence in rooting them out? That's a new tune.

OK. Do you have evidence of his negligence in rooting them out?

The rightwingers always seem to win the rhetoric war. If you can't blame the left for things for which you're responsible, you can always crticize them for not effectively stopping you from doing those things.

Have you read about this:


Since the Venezuelan government passed a controversial land reform law in 2001, conflicts between land reform activists and land-owners have resulted in at least 150 assassinations of campesinos, and possibly more. Since January, 2005 when the land reform initiative was given a new push by President Hugo Chávez, violence in the countryside has escalated further.

Claudia Jardim, a journalist who produces a special bi-monthly documentary on the country’s land reform process says the political murder-rate in the countryside has jumped to an estimated one peasant leader per week since January.

Campesinos marching on the National Assembly and Attorney General’s office submitted a document listing a series of demands to secure government protection for those on the frontlines of the land reform and to seek an end to impunity for the material and intellectual authors of the assassinations.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1501

[Judi Lynn]

238. Thanks for posting this information, 1932. You've opened a new

area which is worthy of some research over the time ahead. This is very interesting:

In the past, the Venezuelan Army, the National Guard, as well as regional police forces were regularly implicated in killings of peasant activists and leaders. One infamous example was the 1988 Amaparo massacre, in which 14 “guerillas” were killed “in battle” by the Venezuelan military. As it turned out, the alleged ELN Colombian guerillas were in fact Venezuelan peasants on a fishing expedition. The military planted weapons on them and ELN insignia, then hastily buried the bodies without the required autopsy.

Since the Chávez government has redefined the role of the Venezuelan military, and radically challenged existing power relations in the Venezuelan countryside, landowners looking for retribution against peasant groups have turned to the sicario, the hired-killer to play the repressive role in rural areas that the military has largely abandoned.
(snip)

There is a culture of violence intrinsic in Venezuela’s police institutions in particular, but also including the military, which is by no means specific to Venezuela. Police and military in Brazil, Colombia, and Argentina have all been implicated in horrible massacres over the past few years. According to New York University historian Greg Grandin, this culture of violence is a legacy of Cold War state terrorism, one that many critics charge was bred by the infamous U.S. School of the Americas to which Latin America’s most notorious dictators sent their officers for training in “interrogation techniques,” among other hallmarks of “modern counterinsurgency.” Replacing such a culture of violence with a mission to protect Venezuelan citizens goes further than merely neutering the military and police’s repressive capacity; it also means ending the impunity of Venezuelan criminals, whether their crimes are politically motivated or not.
(snip)

I really appreciate seeing this, and hope to find out more about it.

[Piotr]

242. Reports regularly cropping up + long time in power + impunity =?

The countryside is a place where vigilanteism and raw violence have taken root as a result of the effective lack of police forces. It's 2005; the article itself says these things began in 2001: Four years, and the government apparently hasn't done anything (substantial) to enforce the law here.

From your article:

"Campesinos marching on the National Assembly and Attorney General’s office submitted a document listing a series of demands to secure government protection for those on the frontlines of the land reform and to seek an end to impunity for the material and intellectual authors of the assassinations."

This is crime, however; Human Rights abuse accusations fall strictly on government bodies, not on vigilantes or people not working for government. It doesn't make it any less inhumane: crime is still a problem in Venezuela, especially murder-related incidents: in Venezuela, over the past eight years, more people have fallen to murder than Iraqi civilians and coalition forces (including the US) under the Iraq War.

According to this page:
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

Of the the highest death by homicide ratio per 100,000 countries in 2003, Venezuela ranked 4th, behind Jamaica, South Africa and Colombia (Colombia being the highest- a country with twice the population of Venezuela and a guerrilla uprising).

Both the Kansas City Star and Vheadline carry this exact same article: "Crime wave, police silence worry Caracas"
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/14744070.htm
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=59576

And according to these pages, the current widespread number of deaths by homicide up to this point is 70,000 people. It's practically impossible to know anymore since the police has officially stopped publishing statistics, but up to 2003, there had been a total of 42,504 deaths by homicide (http://www.psicologiajuridica.org/psj99.html). By state, the highest numbers came from Zulia, which borders Colombia, Carabobo, and DC (which is where Caracas is found).

Even if we average those numbers to get an estimate of 8,500 more homicides per year for 2004-2005, we get 56,804. If we add half of 8,500 to account for 2006 so far, we get 61,054.

From this page (http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/) and from this page (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/), we can estimate total Iraqi civilian and Coalition troop casualties at:

American Deaths
9,471

Other coalition troops:
214

Iraqi Civilian Deaths:
Min:38,254
Max:42,646

Total:
Min: 47939
Max: 52331

That makes 47,993- 52,331 coalition and Iraqi civilian deaths compared to 61,054-70,000 homicide victims in Venezuela. If you add a speculative 20,000 Iraqi troop/terrorist casualties, the numbers are comparable.

So while Chávez is off building bridges with other nations and playing world leader, Venezuelans at home are still faced with such grave issues on a daily basis. True, an average given government can only do so much to alleviate a situation, but 8 years of this, with oil prices as they are and with a wide base of support?

[1932]

245. Iraqi civilian deaths have been estimated at 100,000 above normal rates

in the 1.5 years following the invastion (and that's after removing Falluja from the sample):

The researchers compared the mortality rate among civilians in Iraq during the 14.6 months prior to the March 2003 invasion with the 17.8 month period following the invasion. The sample group reported 46 deaths prior to the March 2003 and 142 deaths following the invasion. The results were calculated twice, both with and without information from the city of Falluja. The researchers felt the excessive violence from combat in Falluja could skew the overall mortality rates. Excluding information from Falluja, they estimate that 100,000 more Iraqis died than would have been expected had the invasion not occurred. Eighty-four percent of the violent deaths were reported to be caused by the actions of Coalition forces and 95 percent of those deaths were due to air strikes and artillery.

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/PR_2004/Burnham_Iraq.html


I suspect that you're already aware that your estimate of Iraqi deaths (in addition to being very very low) doesn't include deaths from non-war related things like violent crime, making your comparison one of apples vs oranges.

[Piotr]

246. And in Venezuela death by homicide numbers are probably also

significantly higher than any official numbers. Perhaps not as much as approx. 200,000, but what I wanted to bring to your attention is that while these numbers in Iraq are happening under a context of war, those numbers in Caracas have happened in a country that is officially at peace.

And no, it's not apple and oranges: deaths by violent non-war-related crime in Iraq are not considered as the comparisons are specifically for casualties as a result of the Iraq War context (not regular crime) vs. deaths by homicide in Venezuela- for example, you could also say that death by car accidents in Venezuela are not being taken into account either, but that doesn't generally fall within the scope of having been the fatal victim of a voluntary act of aggression in Venezuela vs. being a casualty of the war. Again, I wanted to bring your attention to the number war casualties in a country at war vs. those of regular crime within a country not at war.

If you consider only the casualties of the military (coalition and Iraqi), the number of homicide victims in Venezuela (at least 61,054-70,000) then becomes significantly higher than that of Iraqi (30,000-45,000) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003- "Iraqi military casualties") and coalition troop (9,685- from www.antiwar.com)deaths (39,685-54,685): from 10.431749% (lowest estimate) to 43.307143% (highest estimate) more (avg. 26.869446%).

Something else, though. The article in the link doesn't actually say how much the numbers were; it just specifies that Fallujah would have added an estimate of 100,000 more civilian casualties. It's the study ((http://www.zmag.org/lancet.pdf) ) that says the 98,000 number, although it includes possibly non-war related deaths as it is a study of mortality. It does say, though, that since the invasion, mortality has increased 2 to 5-fold.

Considering the old pre-war number to be 1/2 to 1/5 of the size, we can estimate, from 224,300 (estimate of casualties in 1 year as opposed to 1.5 years including Fallujah) a "regular" yearly average mortality rate of 44,860 to 112,150. From that, we can estimate the amount of yearly directly war-related casualties to a range of 112,150-179,440.

Not including Fallujah (100,000), the yearly estimate of casualties is 157,633.33. In this case, the regular yearly average mortality rate is in the range of 31,526.668 to 78,816.67. Then the amount of yearly war-related casualties is in the range of 78,816.67-126,106.66.

This means that , had the invasion not taken place, we could have expected around 45,000-112,000 (with Fallujah) or 32,000-79,000 (wihout Fallujah) less deaths per year. In total, for these three years, the final number would be close to 157,000-291,000 (with Fallujah) to 111,000-205,000 (without Fallujah) less deaths. Projecting the casualty numbers of the study, the total amount of Iraqi civilian casualties for 2003-2006 (war-related and non-war related) would be around 377,000.

Thus, for the ranges for Iraqi civilian deaths as a result of the Iraq War, we have: 112,000-180,00 (with Fallujah) and 79,000-126,000 (without Fallujah- 179,000-226,000 if Fallujah is then added). That's 71,550-139,550 (with Fallujah) and 38,550-85,550 (without Fallujah-138,550-185,550 if Fallujah is then added) more than current estimates (from www.antiwar.com and www.iraqbodycount.com), not 198,000.

Thus, we can use as a final range 138,550-185,550 more Iraqi civilian casualties than current estimates indicate- at the least not close to 198,000 and at the most certainly close to 198,000.

That certainly is a lot, and I wouldn't expect current death by homicide statistics in Venezuela to approach that amount. I had no idea it was so bad in Iraq.

Still, 60,054-70,000 in eight years is a large number for deaths by homicide in a country at peace, especially if it has only around 25 million people. It certainly is significantly higher than the projected amounts of troop deaths in the Iraq War (Iraqi and coalition).

[1932]

249. Including Falluja, the numbers would have been even higher for Iraq.

Not inlcuding Falluja, they were still 100,000 higher than normal FOR ONLY A YEAR AND A HALF period in a country of 27M people. So, Venezuela, with a similar population, has a homicide rate that, over an eight year period amounts to what? 9% of the increase in deats that are likely to be caused by the US invasion of Iraq?

Juan Cole estimtes the murder rate UNRELATED TO THE INVASION in Baghdad as follows:

The London Times reports that nearly 700 persons die under suspicious circumstances (most of them from bullet wounds) every month in Baghdad. These are not, at least mainly, victims of the guerrilla war. They are mostly victims of crime or revenge. I figure that as 8,400 murders a year in a city of 5 million, or 168 per 100,000 per annum. The highest murder rate in the U.S. for 2003 was 45.8 per 100,000, in Washington, D.C., with Detroit coming in second. That is, Baghdad is nearly four times as dangerous as the most dangerous American cities, more than a year and a half after the fall of Saddam. The U.S. has by its stupid mistakes deprived Baghdad's residents of the basic right to personal security. It is true that Saddam's secret police used to dump bodies at the morgue, of course. But all the polls show that Baghdadis feel themselves substantially worse off in personal security now, and no wonder.

http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?articleid=4069

That's about 70% higher than the rate for Caracas and about 450% higher than for Venezuela. Include the invasion-related deaths, and the difference is even greater.

[Piotr]

253. No;

Adding Fallujah to the non-Fallujah figures, we get a minimum of 138,550 and a maximum of 185,550 war-related Iraqi civilian casualties over a period of 3 years- not 200,000.

I'm comparing the amount of war-related casualties in a war-torn casualties to the amount of crime homicide victims in a nation at peace, not the crime rates from both countries; of course the number is higher if you count unrelated murder victims in Iraq! What I want to stress is war-related casualties in a country at war with regular crime homicide victims in a country at peace.

What does this mean? Well, a country at war is a country that is fighting a foreign enemy with military-grade material, whether or not on home soil. Victims are usually the result of the use or misuse of these military-grade weapons: guns, tanks, bombs, airplanes. This is what I mean by war-related: direct deaths caused by weapons of this military-grade material. Not by circumstances such as a lack of police force.

A country at peace that suffers a comparable amount of victims as a result of regular crime (which is not the case in Venezuela), which for the most part uses simple individual weapons like handguns or knives, is sure to catch attention. It is the case of Venezuela if only troops are considered- around 26% more victims of homicide over 8 years than troop casualties, on either side, over 3 years.

Military personnel also have specific objectives which by definition include aggression: neutralizing the opposing force. Lower down the chain of command, soldiers tend to act on orders, not on greed, need or vengeance, as is usual in the case of regular crime (Note, though, that in Venezuela the most commonly cited reason for homicide is "ajuste de cuentas"- settling scores, usually carried out by gang members on other gang members in more impoverished zones).

According to this page, which I linked to before (http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html), the ratio of homicide victims in Venezuela per 100,000 for the year 2003 was 32; in the 90s, it was 25.

[ronnie624]

206. Yes, just like that. n/t

[Piotr]

194. Opposition groups? Where did I mention opposition groups?

These (OAS, HRW, AI) are international organizations, not political dissidents. The OAS is the Organization of American States, a supranational organ; Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are internatIonal Human Rights organizations whose main purpose is to document the state of Human Rights the world over.

Vcrisis.com is indeed run by a Chávez opponent, but I thought that the inclusion of a page from that site with images was enough to be above that. The site does have its credibility at stake anyway, doesn't it?

The Defensoría del Pueblo is part of the government's Citizen Power branch, charged with defending and upholding the rights of Venezuelan citizens.

Vheadline is an apparently independent news site that is openly supportive of the government, and I thought that the inclusion of an article from that page would draw your attention; it provides some context as to what the state of Human Rights have been in Venezuela in the past century. Just about every administration since Cipriano Castro (late 1800s) has violated Human Rights. The implication here is that Chávez's does too.

And concerning the election observation missions: they date after Carter- December 2005, after the use of the Lista Tascón became widespread. They highlight, as I said before, a widespread distrust of the electoral bodies among the population.

EU Electoral Obersvation Mission preliminary report:
http://www.eueomvenezuela.org/pre_statement_en.pdf

(And its preliminary conclusions):

"Wide sectors of the Venezuelan society do not have trust in the electoral process and in the
independence of the electoral authority.

The legal framework contains several inconsistencies that leave room for differing and
contradictory interpretations.

The disclosure of a computerized list of citizens indicating their political preference in the
signature recollection process for the Presidential Recall Referendum (so-called “Maisanta
Program”) generates fear that the secrecy of the vote could be violated.

The CNE, in a positive attempt to restore confidence in the electoral process, took
significant steps to open the automated voting system to external scrutiny and to modify
various aspects that were questioned by the opposition.

The CNE decision to eliminate the fingerprint capturing devices from the voting process was
timely, effective and constructive.

The electoral campaign focused almost exclusively on the issue of distrust in the electoral
process and lack of independence of the CNE. The debate on political party platforms was
absent.

Both State and private media monitored showed bias towards either of the two main
political blocks.

The EU EOM took note with surprise of the withdrawal of the majority of the opposition
parties only four days before the electoral event.

Election Day passed peacefully with a low turnout. While the observers noted several
irregularities in the voting procedures, the manual audit of the voting receipts revealed a
high reliability of the voting machines.

These elections did not contribute to the reduction of the fracture in the Venezuelan society.
In this sense, they represented a lost opportunity."

The final report:
http://www.eueomvenezuela.org/final_statement_en.pdf

In Spanish: the OAS Electoral Mission Press release (2005):
http://www.oas.org/OASpage/press_releases/press_release.asp?sCodigo=MOE-VE-04

And Venezuelanalysis.com is to the government what Vcrisis.com is to the opposition. Surprisingly enough, both editors of the page respect each other's stances and are friends.

[BrotherBuzz]

196. You should have considered the opposition groups because they...

were the ones feeding the allegations of human rights violations to OAS, HRW and AI.

"Wide sectors of the Venezuelan society do not have trust in the electoral process..."

Think that's why Venezuela endured the 2004 presidential recall referendum? (FLASH NEWS!! - Former US President Jimmy Carter said international observers agreed that leftist President Hugo Chavez won an Aug. 15 recall referendum fairly!)

[Piotr]

200. Again, the reports are for December 2005.

After the Lista Tascón became widely known. This list , which was publicly known for a while, was posted by government official Luis Tascón on his website, and it contained the names, addresses, and ID numbers of all registered voters, as well as who voted for or against Chávez in August 2004. Whether you agree with it or not, it did happen.

To United States citizens: If the Bush administration had published a list of who voted for who in the 2004 election as well as their addresses and social security numbers, you'd feel more than just a bit uncomfortable, would you not? That's exactly how many Venezuelans feel.

And you know what? It doesn't surprise anyone anymore, either. Many Venezuelans have become accustomed to this sort of abuse over the years. You could almost say it's part of the Venezuelan idiosyncrasy.

This isn't a pundit or a political commentator talking. This is me, Pedro José Bernardez Sarria, ID number 18.314.514, currently studying Music Composition and Film Scoring in Boston, MA, talking from experience growing up in one of the most lackadaiscal, paradoxical and unbelievable countries you're ever likely to come across.

[BrotherBuzz]

204. 'The List' were signatures of petitioners for the Recall Referendum

released in Feb 2004, before the actual referendum vote, It was not a list of 'who voted for or against' Chavez in August 2004 Recall Referendum.

I don't know if you became confused or are intentionally trying to spread disinformation, but it did not happen the way you say. :shrug:

[Piotr]

205. Sorry. I was confused. It was indeed a list showing who signed for the

Recall Referendum. However, it does amount to the same thing, doesn't it? It shows who wanted a Referendum and who didn't.

That aside, how did it happen, then? I did see Chávez saying that the list may have served its purpose, whatever it was, but that it was no longer necessary; that it was indeed posted on Tascón's website; that he was indeed praised by his colleagues and Chávez himself for such an initiative; and that allegations about people being fired or being denied bassic services for having signed began to crop up.

[ronnie624]

208. The same thing?

I thought a petition was a public document. :shrug:

[BrotherBuzz]

209. Nope

Petitions shall not be deemed to be public records and shall not be
open to inspection except by the public officer or public employees

[ronnie624]

207. More lies?

Say it isn't so!

[Piotr]

248. What?

You think I'm lying? Isn't it in my best interest not to lie?
Here you go, if you don't trust my judgment or experiences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Tascon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS_4TLvphW8&search=La%20Lista

This last link is for a video (in Spanish) which was produced by Ciudadanía Activa, an independent Venezuelan opposition NGO. It details what is known as la Lista Tascón, but what is also important is that it includes images of what it describes. I had a link with it with a choppy English translation, but this one is entirely in Spanish. It is 11:23 minutes long; you can ask any Spanish and English speakers nearby to translate any parts you might find relevant, or at least to confirm any of what I mentioned above about the Lista Tascón.

But the one image that always shocks me most when I remember when the Referendum debate was taking place was the one where Chávez said on his Sunday show:

"...Y en el supuesto de que hagan ese referendum y saquen un 90% de los votos, yo no voy a renunciar. Olvídense."

Which, translated, means:

"...And in the hypothetical case where they carry out that referendum and win with 90% of the votes, I am not going to quit. Forget it."

[Judi Lynn]

250. I can't spend time working to find out how much money your NGO

is getting from the American taxpayers, but it looks as if they're in line to receive handouts from us, without our knowledge or permission, of course, like Sumate:

5. AID/OTI Contract with the National Democratic Institute (NDI) to Guarantee the Credibility of the Referendum and Possible Elections through a Group of Venezuelan NGO’s that will Monitor the Process

The period of this 34-page contract is from September 2003 to September 2004, and like the others that OTI/AID has with IRI and the NDI it followed the May 2003 agreement between the opposition and the government to carry out the referendum that could result in subsequent elections. The total value is $769,487 but NDI is obliged under the contract to seek additional funding from Venezuelan and international sources, which opens the door for the CIA to channel money to this project. The purpose is to establish, finance, train and direct a group of Venezuelan NGOs that will monitor the referendum process before, during and after the voting. The funds will also support this organization for the possible presidential elections in case the opposition wins the referendum, and even further to assure its long-term permanence. The Venezuelan NGOs that the contract mentions as possible participants in the program are Súmate (Join Up), Red de Veedores (Network of Monitors), Mirador Democrático (Democratic Observer), Queremos Elegir (We Want to Choose), and Ciudadanía Activa (Active Citizenry).
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1550

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I have some time later today, I'd try to find out how much money N.E.D. or what other U.S. agency is handing in payoffs to them.

"Independent." Yeah, right.

[Piotr]

251. Well, then, you have some options at your disposal.

You can:

1) Effectively establish a direct link between Ciudadanía Activa and the IRI (beyond "possible recipients could be"), and then discard the video entirely;

2) Establish such a link but look at it anyway, with the link in mind;

3) Read the other link, and all the histories, discussions and versions of the article, as well as follow the links within it;

4) Discard the video completely.

In cases 1) and 2) and 4), you would still have the other link, and the actual images from the video, independently of anything else;

In case 2), even if there are elements that you disagree with, you can still find relevant images- TV addresses, for instance- that are difficult to dispute;

In case 3), you would have to do refuting anyway, independently of the video.

An ad hominem attack does not equate to actually refuting a piece of evidence presented; so while you can try to more fully establish a link between Ciudadanía Activa and the N.E.D, which is entirely possible, I would appreciate it if you watched, analyzed and debated any points and scenes in the video itself.

It is independent- independent of political parties in Venezuela- AD, COPEI, MVR, etc. This means it was founded on the initiative of independents, or people acting under the auspices of independents. The fact that this group was already there when the contract from the link was drawn up helps to underscore that, at least as it stands, Ciudadanía Activa was not a mouthpiece of the IRI. The contract does suggest two other things:

1) That the IRI was aware of the existence of Ciudadanía Activa;

2) That IRI and Ciudadanía Activa shared some common interests, although whether they developed independently or not -at first- has yet to be established.

[genieroze]

131. Why aren't our elections held up to the same scrutiny? There is no way

in hell the elections weren't rigged in 2000, 2002. 2004. and will be again in 2006! Being the the PUKES have such a low approval rating if they win again it will be so obvious that it could cause a revolution.

[Ken Burch]

140. Are "elections" really that important when the rich always steal them?

Why do you even pretend that you aren't on the side of the rich here?

Nicaragua had an election in 1984. The people won that one, but the US wouldn't accept it and launched the Contra War, which the U.S. kept in place until the people voted to surrender and put the rich back in power in 1990. Do you consider THAT something we should see as a better outcome?

Face reality, my friend. In much of Latin America the rich can't be trusted with elections.

And even you would have to admit that it would be a tragedy if Venezuela had an election and the right came back to power. That would mean hope was dead forever.

[TankLV]

183. Yeah - and ALL of Hugo's elections were CERTIFIED by ALL international

observers - including CARTER.

NOT ONE SINGLE observer organizations has made such riduculuous claims as you and your fellow repuke friends are trying to do!

You should do some research before spewing repuke talking points.!

[genieroze]

130. What about the middle class which is what in my opinion allows democracy

to work? Bawhahaha, democracy my ass, we got rigged elections. I rather have a socialist then a fascist dictator like we have now!
What is fascism? We fit the bill.

1. Exuberant nationalism


2. Enemies Identified


3. Rights Disappear


4. Secrecy Demanded


5. Military Glorified


6. Corporations Shielded


7. Corruption Unchecked


8. Media Controlled


9. Rampant Sexism


10. Intellectual Bullying


11. Militarized Police



12. Elections Stolen

[RagingInMiami]

161. We are very close to facsism, but we're not completely there yet

I hope like hell the idiots in this country wake up before it happens.

The truth is, we are becoming the epitome of a Latin American country as far as the political process goes. And that is not good.

I suspect that most of you who fully support Castro and Chavez would be in for a rude awakening if we get such a leader in this country. You might as well forget about your sacred constititution.

And yes, I understand that the way things are going in this country, our constitution is at great risk. Now is anybody going to do anything about it?

[ronnie624]

169. The only real influence over our government

is held by those who pour millions of corporate dollars into the quasi-legal system of bribery called lobbying. In many cases legislation is literally written by the corporate lobbyists. Mussolini said fascism is the merger of corporate and state power. I would say our system of government epitomizes that definition.

[RagingInMiami]

210. As I said, we are very close to it

But we still have the right to call it fascism and not end up in prison. That's a right we need to fight to maintain because they are trying to strip it away from us.

[raccoon]

217. What about the middle class in America?

"which is what in my opinion allows democracy"

I tend to think so too.

They're in the process of being eliminated.

[Phx_Dem]

224. thanks in large part to clintonian free trade....

but according to the Venezuelan foreign minister the US still needs to get rid of it's evil price supports for US farmers.

[raccoon]

228. If you referring to NAFTA, I agree, it hurt the rank and file in

America, and also in Mexico--big time.

[Phx_Dem]

234. yea no doubt..

it's a damn shame that liberals like Clinton just gave up on trade. So far the recession bomb has not hit yet thanks to increases in american worker productivity.

[1932]

231. I believe that Joe Stiglitz says the same thing, as do many development

economists. I think Gordon Brown has made this point too.

[Ken Burch]

166. Is it worth having elections when they are always rigged by the rich?

And why does it HAVE to be a conventional bourgeois parliament or congress?

Why not constituent assemblies and direct democracy?

You know that the people never actually win in OUR kind of democracy. Why should anyone but reactionaries be loyal to it?

[Judi Lynn]

14. Attempted a coup against a piece of filth who was impeached and

imprisoned during his Presidency:

He was a homicidal, corrupt friend of the American right-wing, who raised the cost of transportation so wildly that the people of Caracas, suddenly unable to afford even buses to their employment, ran into the streets to protest, only to have Carlos Andrez Perez instruct his military to mow them down.

Perez was stealing tons from the people of Venezuela, was found guilty of embezzlement, and corruption, was impeached, and put in prison. If anyone led a coup against an asshole, this is the one to lead a coup against.

He remains a beloved figure of the Venezuelan oligarchy, and lives in New York and Miami, etc.

Last Updated: Saturday, 6 May 2006, 10:17 GMT 11:17 UK

Timeline: Venezuela
A chronology of key events

~snip~
1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.

1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.

1999 - Severe floods and mudslides hit the north, killing tens of thousands of people.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm





Photos taken after the massacre, El Caracazo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you spent any time reading, you would have already known this.

[outeramerica]

15. You are taking my commetns out of context

I did quaify that the type of Gov he tried to overthrow was leagl only to the degree allowed in Venezuela, I also mentioned that Venezuela has always been corrupt. I was questioning the people that try to make it seem that putting Chavez in a military uniform is some kind of hoax. It is not he was/is a soldier. Aside from having spent time reading I have spent time living. I have lived in a Latin American Oligarchy and a Latin American Military dictatorship. Perhaps you should take your own advise and read what I was replying to in my comments, instead of regergetating some timeline to condem my opinion. You support a dictator, you critize without merit someone who disagrees with you, you become what you hate.
Here are some questions for you; How many people have died under Chavez? How many more will die? What will Chavez do with his new weapons? Will his new weapons help the people?

[zreosumgame]

16. and yet

he was elected, not selected. Plus he was not a deseter

[Flanker]

18. You hate Chavez

If you are what you hate, are you Chavez?

Oh and the rest of your stuff reaks of desperate nonsense, I smell a sockpuppet.

[RagingInMiami]

19. Most people here don't have a clue about Latin American politics

[ProudDad]

23. Get your facts straight

"Venezuela's defense budget is up 31 percent this year, to $2 billion, and that doesn't include roughly $2.2 billion it plans to spend for 10 transport planes and eight patrol boats on what will be Spain's largest-ever defense deal.

Chávez says the spending is necessary to keep the military up to date and to obtain "minimal arms for the defense of our seas, land and airspace."

Defense economist Mark Stoker says the deals so far don't appear to be a significant buildup; Venezuela is not spending as much as Brazil and Colombia.

"My interpretation is that Venezuela had a certain amount of aging military equipment and needed to replace some of that" using its windfall oil profits, said Stoker of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies"

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003029490_venezuela31.html

"What does McCormack call the $441 billion US military budget for 2006 (up four percent from last year)? Note that Venezuela has a population of 25 million, about 1/12 of the size of the U.S., yet its military budget, which actually declined in recent years while U.S. military under Bush soared to Cold War levels in real dollar terms, is just over $1 billion--less than 0.25% of the American military budget."

---------------------------
Military budget is about .28% of Venezuela's GDP... Don't you WISH that were the case here in the belly of the beast?

Swinging the biggest dick in the world is a f*ckin' waste of time, money and energy...
---------------------------

"Finally, the government has steadily increased overall social spending from 8.2 percent of GDP in 1998 to 11.2 percent of GDP in 2005<19> and is expected to reach 12.5 percent of GDP in 2006.<20> On education, for example, real government spending per capita has increased by 80 percent from 1998 to 2005, with public spending on education at more than 4 percent of GDP annually during this period."

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1740

----------------------------
Don't you wish the U.S. would spend that much on social services!!!!!

Let's see, that would be 1,316 BILLION a year for social spending. Gee, we might even be able to afford health care for all and throw in a college education for anyone who can do it with that kind of scratch!

Gee, what a horrible country Venezuela is becoming under Chavez... :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

25. Keep misusing words like "dictator", and you'll have us

...believing that you BELONG with those conservative freaks.

No one is abusing you, you are making
statements of opinion and then crying
foul when someone disagrees.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1932]

32. Here's the rest of the timeline. Which of these entries justifies claims

that he's a dictator? The BBC is notoriously neoliberal, in my opinion, but even behind each of these entries is evidence that supports the opposite of your contentions. So which ones do you think support your claims?

2000 - Foreign Minister Jose Vicente Rangel discloses plot to kill Chavez. Chavez wins another six years in office and a mandate to pursue political reforms.

Chavez becomes the first foreign head of state to visit Iraq since the 1991 Gulf war, in defiance of strong opposition from the US.

Reform controversy

2001 November - President Chavez appears on TV to hail 49 reform laws which his government has introduced, including land and oil industry reforms, under powers which did not require them to be approved by the National Assembly.

2002 February - National currency, the bolivar, plummets 25% against the US dollar after the government scraps exchange rate controls.

2002 25 February - Chavez appoints new board of directors to state oil monopoly Petroleos de Venezuela in move opposed by executives.

2002 9 April - Trade unions and the Fedecamaras business association declare general strike to support Petroleos de Venezuela dissidents.

Chavez ouster

2002 11 April - Some 150,000 people rally in support of strike and oil protest. National Guard and pro-Chavez gunmen clash with protesters - more than 10 are killed and 110 injured. Military high command rebels and demands that Chavez resign.



Oil strike: Tankers stood idle during the two-month stoppage
2003: In pictures - Venezuela strike chaos

February 2003: BBC's Richard Forrest reports
2002 April 12 - Armed forces head announces Chavez has resigned, a claim later denied by Chavez. Chavez is taken into military custody. Military names Pedro Carmona, one of the strike organisers, as head of transitional government.

2002 April 14 - Chavez returns to office after the collapse of the interim government.

2002 December - Opposition strike cripples the oil industry. Organisers demand that Chavez resign. The nine-week stoppage leads to fuel shortages.

Referendum petitions

2003 May - Government, opposition sign deal brokered by Organisation of American States (OAS) which sets out framework for referendum on Hugo Chavez's rule.

2003 August-September - Opposition delivers petition with more than three million signatures demanding referendum on Chavez's rule. Electoral body rejects petition saying it fails to meet technical requirements.



Supporters hailed Chavez's victory in a vote on his rule
President won 59% of the vote
Result confirmed by electoral authorities and international observers

2004 Analysis: Venezuela at a crossroads
2003 December - Second petition demanding referendum on rule of Hugo Chavez is delivered. Opposition says it contains 3.4 million signatures.

2004 March - Several people are killed and many are injured in clashes between opponents and supporters of President Chavez.

2004 August - President Chavez wins referendum in which Venezuelans are asked whether he should serve out the remaining two-and-a-half years of his term.

Land reform

2005 January - President Chavez signs decree on land reform which aims to eliminate Venezuela's large estates. President says land redistribution will bring justice to rural poor; ranchers say move is an attack on private property.

Bitter dispute with Colombia over the capture of a Colombian rebel Farc leader on Venezuelan soil. The presidents of both nations resolve the affair at talks in Caracas in February.

2005 June - Venezuela and 13 Caribbean states launch a regional oil company at a summit in Caracas. Venezuela, a major producer, agrees to supply the nations with cheap fuel. Critics accuse President Chavez of using oil to increase diplomatic influence.

2005 December - Parties loyal to President Chavez make big gains in parliamentary elections. Opposition parties boycott the poll, leaving parliament entirely made up of supporters of the president.

[outeramerica]

35. Here are a few, My response is indented with hyphens

These would be the first autocratic moves.

Reform controversy

2001 November - President Chavez appears on TV to hail 49 reform laws which his government has introduced, including land and oil industry reforms, under powers which did not require them to be approved by the National Assembly.
---Sounds just like what Bush is doing which everyone screams is autocratic or dictatorial, but I guess it is ok when Chavez does it.

2002 February - National currency, the bolivar, plummets 25% against the US dollar after the government scraps exchange rate controls.
---Who is the government that oked this was it voted on or autocratic/dictatorial

2002 25 February - Chavez appoints new board of directors to state oil monopoly Petroleos de Venezuela in move opposed by executives.
---With this move he basically began the nationalization of the Oil Industry(again this is something that I do not completely disagree with) seems fairly autocratic/dictatorial

From another section;
2003 August-September - Opposition delivers petition with more than three million signatures demanding referendum on Chavez's rule. Electoral body rejects petition saying it fails to meet technical requirements.
--- who controlled the electoral body? rejection reasons bogus.


2004 March - Several people are killed and many are injured in clashes between opponents and supporters of President Chavez.
--- Not necessarily autocratic, you can protest, but you might die. Mnay claims made that the pro-Gov. protesters were armed by the Chavez Gov.

Land reform

2005 January - President Chavez signs decree on land reform which aims to eliminate Venezuela's large estates. President says land redistribution will bring justice to rural poor; ranchers say move is an attack on private property.
---Completely autocratic/dictatorial. He just stripped his citizens of the right to Private property.

2005 June - Venezuela and 13 Caribbean states launch a regional oil company at a summit in Caracas. Venezuela, a major producer, agrees to supply the nations with cheap fuel. Critics accuse President Chavez of using oil to increase diplomatic influence.
--- Who is Chavez to decide to give away Venezuela's oil for cheap. He is doing this to increase his own power. How could giving away your countries wealth to buy influence possibly benefit the poor? And who approved this decision? The poor? I doubt it. Dictatorial, autocratic, and the signs of a power hungry dictator buying approval from other poor nations to support his own power base.

2005 December - Parties loyal to President Chavez make big gains in parliamentary elections. Opposition parties boycott the poll, leaving parliament entirely made up of supporters of the president.
--- No opposition, how convenient. One party, one man, absolute power.

In the history of Latin America there have been many Caudillos, or popular dictatorships. Although they may be popular with the majority, which in Latin America is the poor in almost all instances, they are still dictatorships.

[1932]

40. Quick replies, more later:

These would be the first autocratic moves.

Reform controversy

2001 November - President Chavez appears on TV to hail 49 reform laws which his government has introduced, including land and oil industry reforms, under powers which did not require them to be approved by the National Assembly.
---Sounds just like what Bush is doing which everyone screams is autocratic or dictatorial, but I guess it is ok when Chavez does it.
===Sounds like you don't know what the laws were that Chavez changed. And "approved by the National Assembly" totally undermines the "autocratic" claim.


2002 February - National currency, the bolivar, plummets 25% against the US dollar after the government scraps exchange rate controls.
---Who is the government that oked this was it voted on or autocratic/dictatorial
===That makes no sense.


2002 25 February - Chavez appoints new board of directors to state oil monopoly Petroleos de Venezuela in move opposed by executives.
---With this move he basically began the nationalization of the Oil Industry(again this is something that I do not completely disagree with) seems fairly autocratic/dictatorial
===You don't know the facts at all. The Oil Co. WAS nationalized already. The exiting government began the process of privatizing it, which chavez stopped. The board was loaded with people who were ready to give away a national asset, which was a violation of a decades old principle that the people believed in. What Chavez did was deeply democratic in that it preserved a very popular attitude about PDVSA

From another section;
2003 August-September - Opposition delivers petition with more than three million signatures demanding referendum on Chavez's rule. Electoral body rejects petition saying it fails to meet technical requirements.
--- who controlled the electoral body? rejection reasons bogus.
===There was a referendum. There was also real problems with the lists. More on this later. Utimatley, the election body conceded to every demand by the opposition.

2004 March - Several people are killed and many are injured in clashes between opponents and supporters of President Chavez.
--- Not necessarily autocratic, you can protest, but you might die. Mnay claims made that the pro-Gov. protesters were armed by the Chavez Gov.
===Who do you think killed whom? Care to cite your sources on this one?


Land reform

2005 January - President Chavez signs decree on land reform which aims to eliminate Venezuela's large estates. President says land redistribution will bring justice to rural poor; ranchers say move is an attack on private property.
---Completely autocratic/dictatorial. He just stripped his citizens of the right to Private property.
===Totally democratic, if you ask me. We do it in the US all the time. The real question is whether you're doing it to make the wealthy wealthier or to make the economy fairer. Venezuela is doing this the right way.

2005 June - Venezuela and 13 Caribbean states launch a regional oil company at a summit in Caracas. Venezuela, a major producer, agrees to supply the nations with cheap fuel. Critics accuse President Chavez of using oil to increase diplomatic influence.
--- Who is Chavez to decide to give away Venezuela's oil for cheap. He is doing this to increase his own power. How could giving away your countries wealth to buy influence possibly benefit the poor? And who approved this decision? The poor? I doubt it. Dictatorial, autocratic, and the signs of a power hungry dictator buying approval from other poor nations to support his own power base.
===Go watch the documentary Life & Debt. Venezuela doesn't want to be the one rich oil producer in a community of poor nations (as it has been for the last 100 years) -- that obviously doesn't work. They want to be a nations with a varied economy in a community of nations with large middle classes. This is the way to do that. It's far from dictatorial and autocratic and is actually deeply democratic.

2005 December - Parties loyal to President Chavez make big gains in parliamentary elections. Opposition parties boycott the poll, leaving parliament entirely made up of supporters of the president.
--- No opposition, how convenient. One party, one man, absolute power.
===They knew they were going to lose big so they said they were boycotting to undermine the legitimacy. Anyway, since when is winnning elections a signy of autocracy? And if Chavez were an autocrat, why would he even need to win the national assembly?

In the history of Latin America there have been many Caudillos, or popular dictatorships. Although they may be popular with the majority, which in Latin America is the poor in almost all instances, they are still dictatorships.
===You are still very very very far from making your case that Venezuela is a dictatorship or even an autocracy.

[outeramerica]

50. One more round

These would be the first autocratic moves.

Reform controversy

2001 November - President Chavez appears on TV to hail 49 reform laws which his government has introduced, including land and oil industry reforms, under powers which did not require them to be approved by the National Assembly.
---Sounds just like what Bush is doing which everyone screams is autocratic or dictatorial, but I guess it is ok when Chavez does it.
===Sounds like you don't know what the laws were that Chavez changed. And "approved by the National Assembly" totally undermines the "autocratic" claim.
"""The quote should be "under powers which did not require them to be approved by the National Assembly." No I do not know all the laws changed, but the way they were changed "not needing approval of the National Assembly sound Autocratic to me. My previous point stands.



2002 February - National currency, the bolivar, plummets 25% against the US dollar after the government scraps exchange rate controls.
---Who is the government that oked this was it voted on or autocratic/dictatorial
===That makes no sense.
""" Who authorized the scrapping of the exchange rate? Was it done autocratically?

2002 25 February - Chavez appoints new board of directors to state oil monopoly Petroleos de Venezuela in move opposed by executives.
---With this move he basically began the nationalization of the Oil Industry(again this is something that I do not completely disagree with) seems fairly autocratic/dictatorial

From another section;
2003 August-September - Opposition delivers petition with more than three million signatures demanding referendum on Chavez's rule. Electoral body rejects petition saying it fails to meet technical requirements.
--- who controlled the electoral body? rejection reasons bogus.
===There was a referendum. There was also real problems with the lists. More on this later. Utimatley, the election body conceded to every demand by the opposition.
""" I think they conceded to avoid criticism from the international community. Had ther been no such pressure they would have been ignored.

2004 March - Several people are killed and many are injured in clashes between opponents and supporters of President Chavez.
--- Not necessarily autocratic, you can protest, but you might die. Mnay claims made that the pro-Gov. protesters were armed by the Chavez Gov.
===Who do you think killed whom?
""" Does it matter whom killed whom? Do you refute the claims that the Gov. armed and supported its pro-protesters? Isn't a governmetnt supposed to protect protesters rights both pro and con?

Land reform

2005 January - President Chavez signs decree on land reform which aims to eliminate Venezuela's large estates. President says land redistribution will bring justice to rural poor; ranchers say move is an attack on private property.
---Completely autocratic/dictatorial. He just stripped his citizens of the right to Private property.
===Totally democratic, if you ask me. We do it in the US all the time. The real question is whether you're doing it to make the wealthy wealthier or to make the economy fairer. Venezuela is doing this the right way.
""Totally wrong. Totally Autocratic. There was a law passed recently in the USA that allowed expropriation of property to allow develoment for comercial use. It is totally unconstitutional. I do not recall if it has been overturned, it should be. " The real question is whether you're doing it to make the wealthy wealthier or to make the economy fairer." The end justifies the means? Very dangerous ground you tread. I guess you mean that only certain people have rights, not everyone. In this case who decides? Who is the Decider(of course we all know this one)? Who Dictates who has rights and who doesn't? Who is the Dictator?

2005 June - Venezuela and 13 Caribbean states launch a regional oil company at a summit in Caracas. Venezuela, a major producer, agrees to supply the nations with cheap fuel. Critics accuse President Chavez of using oil to increase diplomatic influence.
--- Who is Chavez to decide to give away Venezuela's oil for cheap. He is doing this to increase his own power. How could giving away your countries wealth to buy influence possibly benefit the poor? And who approved this decision? The poor? I doubt it. Dictatorial, autocratic, and the signs of a power hungry dictator buying approval from other poor nations to support his own power base.
===Go watch the documentary Life & Debt. Venezuela doesn't want to be the one rich oil producer in a community of poor nations (as it has been for the last 100 years) -- that obviously doesn't work. They want to be a nations with a varied economy in a community of nations with large middle classes. This is the way to do that. It's far from dictatorial and autocratic and is actually deeply democratic.
"""Do you really think that the poor people in Venezuela who do not have enough to eat care about a greater community of nations. They are paying the price for Chavez to pursue his dreams of being the next Bolivar and going down in history. And he decided autocratically that they are going to pay for his dream, without their approval(unless there was a referendum on the mater). He is doing this for his own greater glory in a dictatorial manner. I really do not see how you can argue this point.

2005 December - Parties loyal to President Chavez make big gains in parliamentary elections. Opposition parties boycott the poll, leaving parliament entirely made up of supporters of the president.
--- No opposition, how convenient. One party, one man, absolute power.
===They knew they were going to lose big so they said they were boycotting to undermine the legitimacy. Anyway, since when is winnning elections a signy of autocracy? And if Chavez were an autocrat, why would he even need to win the national assembly?
"""You could have a point on trying to paint the whole process illegitimate. However could one also claim that Chavez's hold on power is only do to the Gov. give aways in his name.

In the history of Latin America there have been many Caudillos, or popular dictatorships. Although they may be popular with the majority, which in Latin America is the poor in almost all instances, they are still dictatorships.
===You are still very very very far from making your case that Venezuela is a dictatorship or even an autocracy.
"""I don't think I am far away at all. But I respect your opinion that I am way off base, I could be.

[manic expression]

122. You are without a clue

Chavez' reforms were reforms which gave power and land and more to the people. Why do you oppose that? If they didn't have to be approved, they didn't have to be approved, don't blame Chavez, blame the laws.

The currency was in trouble because of the coup and the elitist lockouts. The oligarchy tried to disrupt the economy to force Chavez out, but he opposed them and has been allowing the economy to recover.

Since you know nothing about Venezuela, here are some facts about the coup:

"Chávez was taken to a military base while coup leaders made Fedecámaras president Pedro Carmona interim president. Carmona immediately reversed many of Chávez's policies, including his credit controls and oil production ceilings. Carmona also dissolved the National Assembly, dismissed the Venezuelan judiciary, and reverted Venezuela's official name back to República de Venezuela. Pro-Chávez demonstrations then erupted across Caracas; later, pro-Chávez troops led a counter-coup, freeing Chávez from captivity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Coup_attempt_of_2002_and_recall_referendum_2004

Many Heads of State are allowed to appoint people to many boards. That's not unheard of at all, and it is not unreasonable either.

Chavez won a recall referendum (which was validated by the Carter Center). Oops.

Now I'm laughing. The clashes between protestors had nothing to do with suppression. They had everything to do with the two sides fighting, which happens in the US. IIRC, the anti-Chavez group was found of wrongdoing.

Signing a decree on land reform is not autocratic. First, it takes land and puts it exactly where it belongs: with the people. Ever hear of "eminent domain"? I thought so. It is only right to take land from those who are unnecessarily wealthy and make sure that all people are able to have what they need and deserve. In this frame of reference, communities which were formerly landless now had land, something that is undeniably good and right. Secondly, Chavez has not outstepped his bounds with these actions. He is within his power here (like everywhere else).

Wow. His decision to give oil to countries which may need it has nothing to do with excessive power. You cannot possibly try to say he is dictatorial because of this, because he is within his power to do this sort of thing. Furthermore, it is a show of good will and a sound diplomatic move to do what he did. You have further shown your ignorance.

The opposition boycotted the polls because they knew they were going to get creamed, so they wanted to make a cute little stunt to get sympathy. Chavez didn't make the opposition boycott anything, they did it. The elections of Venezuela have been consistently validated by international observers, meaning they are completely fair.

There is no basis to say that Chavez is a dictator. He has no dictatorial powers, and he has not exercised any excessive use of power. Your examples are meaningless because they take actions which are granted to many heads of state and try to portray that as autorcratic, when it is anything but. Furthermore, you seem to assert that Chavez is autocratic simply because you disagree with his actions and not the legal and democratic means of going about them. Your argument is wholly incorrect and wrong.

[Judi Lynn]

127. At the beginning of your great post, you mentioned the oligarchy's

sabotage of the Venezuelan economy. I instantly recalled what little I've read about a rabid right-wing Republican President's actions toward the elected President of Chile, Salvador Allende.

Here's a link for anyone who's interested in seeing a bit about that strangely familiar game plan:

CIA, Notes on Meeting with the President on Chile, September 15, 1970: These handwritten notes, taken by CIA director Richard Helms, record the orders of the President of the United States, Richard Nixon, to foster a coup in Chile. Helms' notes reflect Nixon's orders: l in 10 chance perhaps, but save Chile!; worth spending; not concerned; no involvement of embassy; $10,000,00 available, more if necessary; full-time job--best men we have; game plan; make the economy scream; 48 hours for plan of action. This presidential directive initiates major covert operations to block Allende's ascension to office, and promote a coup in Chile.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch26-01.htm

From:

Chile and the United States:
Declassified Documents relating to
the Military Coup, 1970-1976

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

{FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES, SEPTEMBER 13, 1998}

(BY TIM WEINER)

~snip~
United States Ambassador Edward Korry, in a cable titled `No Hopes for Chile,' advised Washington on Sept. 8, 1970:

Civility is the dominant characteristic of Chilean life . . . And civility is what makes almost certain the triumph of the very uncivil Allende. Neither the President nor the Armed Forces have the stomach for the violence they fear would be the consequence of intervention.

The Ambassador followed up on Sept. 11 with a new cable, `The Communists Take Over Chile.'

There is a graveyard smell to Chile, the fumes of a democracy in decomposition. They stank in my nostrils in Czechoslovakia in 1948 and they are no less sickening today.

On Sept. 15, Richard M. Helms, Director of Central Intelligence, took handwritten notes at a White House meeting with President Richard M. Nixon, Attorney General John Mitchell, and the national security adviser, Henry M. Kissinger.

1 in 10 chance perhaps, but save Chile!.. worth spending . . . not concerned risks involved . . . no involvement of embassy . . . $10,000,000 available, more if necessary . . . full-time job--best men we have . . . game plan . . . make the economy scream . . . 48 hours for plan of action.
(snip)

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1998_cr/h980917-chile.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

excerpts from the book
The Broken Promises of America
at home and abroad, past and present
Volume 2
by Douglas F. Dowd
Common Courage Press, 2005, paper

~snip~
Time for Act Two; Enter right, Nixon and Kissinger. From before the 1970 election until the day Allende was overthrown and killed-along with 3,000 others (more than on our 9/11)-the USA and its CIA covertly spent at least $11 million, used every trick in the book, had its own agents doing some of the work, and paid the Chileans doing the rest, beginning with the attempt to wreck the Chilean economy, as pronounced in "National Security Decision Memorandum (NSDM) No 93'

Within the context of a publicly cool and correct posture toward Chile... /the Nixon administration will! undertake vigorous efforts to assure that other governments in Latin America understand fully that the United States opposes consolidation of a Communist state in Chile hostile to the United States and other hemisphere nations, and to the extent possible encourages them to adopt a similar posture. (quoted in HERSH)

Such as? 1. Guarantees of private investments in Chile. 2. Study which existing guarantees and financing can be terminated. 3. Bringing maximum feasible influence to bear in international financial institutions to limit credit or other financial assistance.
In addition were the continuing efforts to promote discontent through the media and production sabotage and transport obstructions, as well as the expansion of hooligan activities reminiscent of Berlin in the early 1930s.

° It all culminated in the military overthrow of the Allende government, the arrest, torture, imprisonment, and murder of at least ) 40,000 Chilean citizens, and the imposition of General Pinochet's fascist government.
(snip/...)

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:nAf8RF65woIJ:www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Doug_Dowd/Broken_Promises_Vol_2.html+Nixon+Chile+wreck+economy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

[Ken Burch]

139. What difference does it make if they got rid of private property?

Property rights are rich people's rights. They are reactionaries rights. Nothing beautiful or progressive or life affirming ever came or ever can come from the right to private property. Private property, in the end, is the enemy of hope, joy and life.

(BTW, there are still rich people in Venezuela, so no, Hugo actually DIDN't get rid of private property.)

[nick303]

158. There is nothing reactionary about private property

Now get back under that bridge

[Ken Burch]

159. I'm not against ALL private property.

But it will always be less important than every human beings life to a decent life. You can't point to any instance anywhere where property rights have ever served a progressive or humane purpose. People who obsess about "private property" will always, in the end, be against justice and hope. Why defend them when you know they aren't on our side?

In Chile the defenders of "private property" won in 1973. In Guatemala the defenders of "private property" won in 1953. In South Africa "private property" freaks always defended apartheid to the bitter end. Need I go on?

People will always be more important than property. People have souls and dignity and the capacity for joy and beauty. Property, in itself, has none of these.

People who put up "no trespassing" signs are usually murderous creeps with WAY too many guns. Which they are way too eager to use.

We tried it your way in the 1990's, when Bill and Hillary pretended that corporate power and the property cult could help the poor and the workers. Fat lot of good that did anywhere in the developing world.

[genieroze]

132. One party, one man, absolute power, sounds like the PUKES.

We got Diebolded into fascism!

[LibertyorDeath]

125. LOL

[K-W]

17. You know, the word dictator has a definition.

Heres a hint, Chavez doesnt qualify.

Im glad you support the autonomy of Venezualans as long as they choose leaders you approve of.

[ProudDad]

20. I'd like to see some sources for these

corporate talking points of yours...

Oh and just for a change, I'd like to see some sources from something other than the right-wing rags you anti-socialists always come up with.

[Bridget Burke]

33. "Autonomy" with your approval is not Autonomy at all.

I know a fair number of Venezuelans in Texas. They left LONG before Chavez.

[stepnw1f]

34. if you say so... keep spreading those GOP lies

until something sticks. God you people really deserve worse.

[outeramerica]

36. Please point out my lies oh bearer of truths.

[stepnw1f]

37. "dictator"

Chavez was Democratically elected. Spread your filth elsewhere... how's Abramoff feeling these days?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

58. You think BUSH was democratically elected?

:wtf:

:puke:

[redqueen]

57. If it appears to you that we only like him because he doesn't like Bush

policies, then you're sadly mistaken.

And if you really don't see why he needs the military... then you don't grasp the situation very well. The US has been meddling in South American politics for decades. You don't think some of those countries might eventually tire of being pushed around?

Any sources for the claims that things are worse now than before he was re-elected? (unlike bush, who was never elected) source for your claims about 'brain drain' also, please.

Thanks in advance, and enjoy your stay.

[outeramerica]

60. Brain Drain

Here is a good one.

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/IttMigLAC/P10_WB-DECRG.pdf

I just did a search on google which showed the above and,

http://www.google.com.mx/search?hl=es&q=Venezuela+brain+drain&btnG=B%C3%BAsqueda&meta=

all the rest. This is such a well know and documented phenomena that I do not need to go into detail. Plus I have family that are part of the Brain Drain statistics.

Bringing up the disgraceful past of US interference in Latin America has nothing to do with Chavez being or not being a dictator.

[redqueen]

63. That document shows no increase in brain drain from Venezuela

from the 80's to the 90's... the figure is the same.

Can't believe you just posted a google search as evidence... :wtf: again...

Do you have a source or not?

Cite the TEXT and the URL, not a search and a PDF which doesn't even back your statements up pelase.



edit: to add that this was in the PDF you cited:

"The next key question is the following: What percentage of the total educated
labor force from Latin American countries has migrated to the United States? Figure 3
provides the first half of the answer. Once again, we see wide variation. A very large
portion of the college educated migrants from smaller and poorer countries in the
Caribbean and Central America are in the US. For example, close to 80% of college
educated people born in Jamaica, Haiti, Guyana, Belize, Grenada are currently living in
the US. The rate is also relatively high for some of medium-sized countries in Central
America. Around 30% of the college educated from El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras,
Nicaragua and Panama are also in the US. The levels are much lower for larger and
wealthier countries. For example, the ratio of the college educated among the migrants is
less than 5% for Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Uruguay and Venezuela."

[outeramerica]

66. main source

My main source is from people I know that have left. Why don't you try to dissprove the brain drain idea?
I placed a goggle link so you could read up on the subject.

[redqueen]

72. Yeah, thanks for playing.

It's obvious by how well versed you are on this subject, and how willing you are to defend your point of view...

I think it's really YOU that needs to "read up" on the subject. If you didn't, you wouldn't have such a hard time providing anything but anecdotal evidence.

:hi:

[manic expression]

123. Stop it! No! That's too funny!

So your "main source" is ancedotal and completely restricted? That's comical. The people you preportedly talked to have quite the skewed view, not to mention they are a self-selecting group. The facts that have been continually provided for you show that there is no increase in any "brain drain". However, you continue in your delusion is spite of those facts and reality.

A google link and a few people you've had dinner with makes up your body of evidence? Come on, that's just pathetic.

[Judi Lynn]

65. The chart on your UN article indicates the information was gathered

during the 1980's and the 1990's. Hugo Chavez was't elected President until sometime in 1998. How do you see these figures representing what has happened in Venezuela due to Hugo Chavez's election?

[outeramerica]

69. Judi Lynn

Judi Lynn after your last two attempts to bastardize quotes to fit your argument you have no credibility and deserve no more attention. By the way your clean bill of health was a rferendum not an election.

[redqueen]

73. LMAO!

Yeah, riiiiiight... Judi Lynn is the one with no credibility and who deserves no more attention...

:rofl:

[TankLV]

185. I noticed that, too!

That is too rich.

At least Judi has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD, while you've been just PROVEN WRONG - and tombstoned!

HAHA!

[AnOhioan]

91. okey dokey.....whatever you say

Do yourself a favor...layoff the Kool-Aid :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

114. I'm a-feared we can't see him any more, or at least until he shows

up as someone else!

I just noticed he got one of these:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=187285

Woe is us! How can we ever go on?



Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[ronnie624]

170. One more to go. n/t

[redqueen]

239. How long must we wait?

:banghead:

[manic expression]

121. No he is most decidedly not

He was elected in an election that was confirmed by international observers. Jimmy Carter signed off on the election that gave Chavez office.

He did attempt a coup, but that does not change anything. He was still elected in a perfectly fair election.

He is bettering the poor by setting up countless clinics which offer free medical care. He is bettering the poor by opposing corporations' attempts at exploitation (see the freeze of prices awhile ago). He is bettering the poor by making sure the poverty rate has dropped in spite of the catastrophic economic shutdown by the elitists in an attempt to foil Chavez. He is bettering the poor by doing many other things which actually help the situation.

He is also spending money on arms and forming militias because he, like every other person with a shred of knowledge on the subject, knows that Uncle Sam and his gunboat diplomacy could strike him and his country. Those arms are essential, and if you disagree, you are in defiance of history and reality.

His goals and means have everything to do with socialism. I can tell you that pretty accurately.

FDR also tried to "change the judicial". Chavez has not altered the government for the worse at all, and his powers are not unreasonable.

What are you talking about? There are far more doctors coming into the country than leaving. There are far more doctors who now serve all the people. The poverty rate has been falling consistently. Your assertions have no basis whatsoever.

[genieroze]

129. Well our build up of the military industrial complex has helped us a bunch

How does this help our poor? It doesn't, it only makes companies like Halliburton filthy rich. Venezuela has been and remains an incredibly corrupt nation? So are we!!!!!!

[ny_liberal]

133. I agree - he should be feeding the starving children with those billions

[1932]

134. Actually he is. Venezuela considers its most important project agriculture

Venezuela imports something like 50% of its food because previous governments put all their resources into building up oil.

A major project of the current government is to build up the agricultural sector...so that they can feed their own people, and so that Venezuelans have jobs.

[Ken Burch]

141. Keep repeating the State Department line of the day, that's a good

right winger.

Meanwhile, you can assume, ny_liberal, that anyone the antichavistas brought to power with US guns would have to be worse on poverty and social justice issues. Assuming that you actually care about the Venezuelan poor at all.

[TankLV]

182. FUCKING TROLL!

Go peddle your lies someplace else.

We've REFUTED every one MANY TIMES before!

Asshole!

[Judi Lynn]

184. It gets tiring, doesn't it? You answer them in terms that can't be denied,

and they turn around and repeat the very same gibberish as if it never happened. Makes them look damned obnoxious, doesn't it?

Looks like disrupting to me.

[Robbien]

12. When dealing with negative media controlled by the US, Chavez has

a lifetime's worth of experience. Somehow with all the media in Venezuela spewing hatred at Chavez, he has been able to win over three fourths of the population.

And you are right Peace Patriot, because of all the negative coded phrases regularly used by Bushco it only takes reading one sentence of an article to determine if the piece is going to be a propaganda hit piece.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

45. Saddam won 99% of the vote

in his last election.

Not comparing him to Saddam, only saying that this serves to impeach the argument that just because he won 75% of the vote means he is loved and adored by all.

[Judi Lynn]

48. There were international election observers in Venezuela to monitor

the election, including Jimmy Carter's organization which gave this originally unscheduled election, brought on by the "opposition," a completely clean bill of health.

No reason to drag Saddam Hussein into it, is there?

[outeramerica]

54. Not a complete bill of health

The Carter Center concluded that while the election irregularities would not have changed the 2000 presidential outcome, in which Hugo Chávez won with 60 percent of the vote, the significant politicization of the elections and organizational deficiencies contributed to a lack of confidence in the process and the non-presidential results, thus leading the Center to characterize the July 2000 elections as flawed.

http://www.cartercenter.org/activities/showdoc.asp?countryID=87&submenuname=activities

[Judi Lynn]

59. Observers endorse Venezuela vote

Last Updated: Tuesday, 17 August, 2004, 04:12 GMT 05:12 UK

Observers endorse Venezuela vote

International observers in Venezuela have confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in a referendum on whether he should be removed from office.
The former US president, Jimmy Carter, said Mr Chavez had won fairly, and the Organization of American States said it had not found any element of fraud.

With nearly all the votes counted, Mr Chavez has 58% backing him.
(snip)

Mr Carter, who helped monitor Sunday's vote, said his team of observers had concluded there was a "clear difference in favour" of Mr Chavez.

The head of the Organization of American States, Cesar Gaviria, also said his monitors had not found "any element of fraud".

"Until elements of fraud emerge we are not going to put the results in doubt," he said.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/americas/3571350.stm

[outeramerica]

61. Two diferrent votes

These are two diferent votes. Why must you try to manipulate facts to make your point. This is the second time you edit for your argument.

[BrotherBuzz]

85. That was then, this is now

Carter gave the recall referendum election a clean bill of health, and that legitimizes Chavez. Everything is honky dory now.

On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc1690.htm

[Judi Lynn]

87. What you've offered doesn't indicate any wrong doing by the Chavez

government whatsoever, does it?

Odd!

Here's something from the Carter Center which is helpful:

Feature: The Carter Center and the 2004 Venezuela Elections

16 Sep 2004

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter led a team of international observers from The Carter Center during the Aug. 15 presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, when citizens voted on the recall of President Hugo Chavez. The Center previously observed the reparos--or signature verification correction periods; the signature collection; and the signature verification process.


ALL PHOTOS BY DAVID ROCHKIND

President Carter meets with reparo officials during the signature verification process.

Venezuelan citizens verified the authenticity of their signatures in the original petition calling for a recall referendum.

The emotion displayed at a rally during the reparos underscores the bitter political divisions in Venezuela.

A member of the Carter Center observation team interviews an election official.

Secretary General César Gaviria of the Organization of American States (left) and President Carter hold a press conference prior to the May 28-30 reparos.
On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.
(snip)

http://www.cartercenter.org/doc1690.htm

[manic expression]

124. The Carter Center's own words:

"...we concluded that the presidential election legitimately expressed the will of the people"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez#Coup_attempt_of_2002_and_recall_referendum_2004

They didn't completely endorse it, but they also said that the people's voice was confirmed in the results.

For your lack of information, "flawed" does not equal "illegitimate". Nice try, though.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Wow, and you people get your pants in a wad if we say

"Hitler also did XXX" in reference to something by Bush.

Not comparing, noooooo, of course.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Off. His. Meds. n/t

[1932]

28. ...is what people say when they don't have truth on their side.

Eddie Bernays would love you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

30. Yeah.

Sticking up for Carlos the Jackal at an OPEC meeting is real fucking classy.

[1932]

31. "off his meds" (& variants) has a long history in the RW slander arsenal

As for calling Carols the Jackal his friend, here's what he said about that, in a lose translation from yesterday's El Universal article:

Caracas.- El presidente Hugo Chávez recordó hoy una carta de su "amigo", el venezolano Vladimir Ilich Ramírez Sánchez, alias El Chacal, que cumple cadena perpetua por actividades terroristas en Paris, en su discurso previo a la 141 reunión extraordinaria de la OPEP, reseñó AFP.
"Yo recuerdo aquella gira, espeluznante la llamó un buen amigo venezolano que está en Europa, espeluznante; me refiero a Carlos Ilich Ramírez a quien apodan el Chacal", dijo Chávez al aludir a su gira por los países miembros de la OPEP antes de su segunda cumbre de 2000 en Caracas.
En "aquellos días (El Chacal) me hizo llegar una carta desde su prisión de Paris y me decía esa gira es espeluznante, nunca olvidaré aquella frase de Carlos. Hasta Bagdad fuimos a parar nosotros, y no fuimos por Venezuela, fuimos por la OPEP", dijo Chávez.
El terrorista fue capturado en Sudán en agosto de 1994 y entregado a Francia, donde fue condenado el 24 de diciembre de 1997 a cadena perpetua por un triple asesinato cometido el 27 de junio de 1975 en París.
Carlos reivindicó el espectacular secuestro de ministros de la OPEP en Viena en 1975 y se le imputan otros actos violentos en Europa en los años 70-80.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2006/06/01/pol_ava_01A715651.shtml

Caracas. - President Hugo Chávez today remembered a letter of his "friend", the Venezuelan Vladimir Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, known as the Jackal, who is serving a life sentence for terrorist activities in Paris, in his speech to the 141st meeting of OPEC, reports AFP. "I remember that trip, horrifying,a good Venezuelan friend who is in Europe called it that, horrifying; I talk about to Carlos Ilich Ramirez, whom they nicknamed the Jackal ", said Chávez when alluding to its tour of OPEC nations before his second summit of 2000 in Caracas. "Back then (the Jackal) sent me a letter from prison in Paris and it said that that the tour is horrifying; never I will forget that Carlos's phrase. When we arrived in Bagdad, and we were not there as Venezuela, we were as an OPEC member," said Chávez. The terrorist was captured in Sudan in August of 1994 and given to France, where he was condemned on December 24, 1997 to life imprisonment in Paris for a triple murder the on June 27, 1975. Carlos was vindicated (punished? acquitted?) for the spectacular kidnapping of OPEC ministers in Vienna in 1975 and other crimes in Europe in the 70s 80s of which he is suspected of committing.

Maybe someone else can do a better translation, but it looks like Carlos sent him letters from prison telling him he was horrified that Chavez was working with OPEC (and Hussein?) since Carlos objected to OPEC so much.

It would be nice to know the context, don't you think? Maybe I'll look for the Agence French Press version of the story.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Background.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Venezuela_Carlos_the_Jackal.html

CARACAS, Venezuela -- President Hugo Chavez brought up Carlos the Jackal during a meeting of oil producers Thursday, calling the Venezuela-born terrorist who once took hostages at an OPEC meeting "a good friend."



and

Chavez provoked controversy in 1999 when he confirmed he had written a letter to Ramirez. He addressed Ramirez as "Dear compatriot" and, according to press reports, signed it "with profound faith in the cause and the mission, now and forever."

Chavez, who describes himself as a socialist revolutionary, has said the letter was intended to express "human solidarity" with Ramirez but not "political solidarity."

I can't believe the nerve of those who question why anyone on the left would be wary of Chavez.

[1932]

44. You can't believe the nerve of people who would ask people expressing

suspicion about Chavez why they have that suspicion?

Really?

And you think those two quotes you provide send this issue beyond the realm where a fact-based discussion might be useful?

So much for informed debate then.

Is this a place for spinning out bullshit, or is it place where we try to get at the truth?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. The truth?

And you think those two quotes you provide send this issue beyond the realm where a fact-based discussion might be useful?

The man stood in front of an audience, at OPEC no less, and praised a convicted murderer and terrorist. THAT is why I, as a progressive and supporter of human rights, QUESTION whether Chavez is all that he's made out to be. Excuse me for believing that being a progressive means that one values human rights. I'm sorry for questioning His Flawlessness, the Great Chavez.

As for your constant insinuation that my questions about Chavez are not based in reality, please provide a source that contradicts Chavez' own assertions regarding his relationship with Carlos the Jackal. Then please explain to me why it's OK to support a convicted, unrepentant murderer.

[redqueen]

67. I don't think it's OK, but I dont' live in a black and white world.

Chavez has his faults... but consider that our leaders praise terrorists and murderers as well... it's just that the ones our leaders praise are on the "right" side of the battle.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm not going to damn Chavez and act as if he's NOT doing a great deal of work for the populist cause, no matter how he dresses or what "terrorists" he feels some kind of kinship with.

Why isn't Kissinger considered a terrorist?

Or Negroponte?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

84. Right.

but consider that our leaders praise terrorists and murderers as well.

So essentially you are saying that Chavez is similar to Bush. This does not give me comfort.

it's just that the ones our leaders praise are on the "right" side of the battle.

Maybe according to them, but not necessarily according to me. Our involvement in Uzbekistan is particularly disgraceful, to give just one example.


Why isn't Kissinger considered a terrorist?

Uh, Kissinger IS considered a terrorist by a lot of people. DU is not exactly a hotbed of pro-Kissinger sentiment.

[redqueen]

90. My point is not that he's similar to bush...

my point is that... who's better? Find me a better leader somewhere.

Nobody's going to be spotless, because politics is an ugly, ugly business.

And yes, by DU, but not by those who might otherwise lambast our leaders for praising him, get it?

[jerry611]

76. Chavez is a dictator with an anti-American vendetta

Chavez is no different than the thinking of the Soviet Union or Fidel Castro. He is a socialist that is determined to undermine the American economy.

It's nothing new. Socialists and communists have been trying to rip apart the American economy for 60 years. They've all failed. If the Soviet Union couldn't cause America to crumble, Venezuela doesn't stand a chance.
Chavez isn't any more threatning than Castro. And what did JFK do to Castro for trying to screw America? He put Castro in a box. And he has been in that box ever since. Today, Chavez is playing a game with some very dangerous people in the US government and the US economy. It won't be long until he's also in a box with Fidel.

Good luck, Hugo. You are going to need it.

[redqueen]

79. Castro tried to screw America

how?

And how have "socialists and communists" been trying to "rip apart" the American economy for 60 years?

Unbelievable...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

86. I wouldn't say he is a dictator.

I think it is irresponsible to throw that word around lightly. He most certainly does have some authoritarian tendencies, but there's a significant delta between that and a full-on dictatorship.

[GirlinContempt]

111. Why, Senator McCarthy! Always a pleasure.

[EFerrari]

83. But that isn't what happened -- it's what is being fed to us.

I called and asked for a transcript in Spanish and am waiting for it.

But, apparently the context is, when he announced his intention of meeting with Hussein, everyone told him not to go. Chavez said, "I even got a letter from Paris from my good friend Carlos Ramirez, telling me that this was a crazy idea."

THIS IS NOT FROM THE TRANSCRIPT. This is my understanding of the context. When I get the transcript, I will post his exact words. Let's see if I'm wrong.

But, it looks like he was using IRONY, a speech act that also exists in Spanish.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

89. That does not explain away his previous statements on the subject.

Nor does it explain why he would send a letter to Carlos Ramirez in the first place. The full text of the letter is available here:

http://www.harpers.org/1999-10-MyStruggle.html

Not a shining example of irony, really.

[EFerrari]

93. Here's the relevant passage of the transcript in Spanish

so you have access to the thing itself, not my interpretation.

And yes, it is ironic that a progressive leader who has been called a terrorist by our facist government is saying that even Ramirez thought his trip to Iraq was a horrifying idea. And grouping that response with world leaders' similar responses. lol

* * *

Hasta a Bagdad fuimos a parar nosotros, y no fuimos por Venezuela, fuimos por la OPEP. Recuerdo cómo me aconsejaba, porque yo era un muchacho, todavía lo soy pero ya un poco menos, madurando de manera acelerada, con carburo, aquí se maduran algunas frutas, no sé con qué madurarán en Arabia Saudita o en Nigeria, pero aquí le ponemos carburo a los plátanos para que maduren más rápido, así me pongo yo, carburo para madurar, la vida lo va haciendo a uno madurar, algunos tipos de vida.

Recuerdo y rindo tributo hoy a un hermano que me aconsejó mucho y ya no está físicamente con nosotros, me refiero al rey Fahad de Arabia Saudita, aquellas reuniones que sosteníamos, y él a pesar de su edad y sus dificultades nunca dejaba de recibirme y de conversar. El príncipe Abdula, hoy rey soberano de Arabia Saudita.

Recuerdo las conversaciones con Abdelaziz Buteflicka, allá en Argel, con Kadaffi allá en Trípoli. Cuánto nos ayudó el ex Presidente Jatami. Desde el punto de vista del conocimiento, de la realidad que vivía la OPEP y el mundo árabe, y el mundo persa en aquellos años para nosotros poder aventurarnos. Algunos me decían “¿Tú eres loco? Es una locura”. Bueno, y cómo no recordar al Emir de Kuwait, el Emir Ahmed y su buen humor siempre. Su buen humor ante las situaciones más duras y difíciles el buen humor por delante. El Emir de Qatar ¿qué dije yo? Kuwait. Kuwait también. Allá estuvimos, gracias. También en Qatar, en los Emiratos Árabes. Ay, cómo olvidar al hermano Presidente mi General Obasanyo, Presidente de Nigeria. Al Presidente de Indonesia de entonces. Nunca lo voy a olvidar. Aquellas conversaciones. Recuerdo que el Presidente Jatami bueno, me dijo, si tú quieres ir a Bagdad, casi nadie me recomendaba aquello, pero yo creía que había que ir a Bagdad también para asegurar el éxito de la Cumbre de la OPEP del 2000. Y bueno, gracias al apoyo del Presidente Jatami, en su propio avión, con seguridad, llegamos hasta la frontera, cruzamos caminando, y luego los helicópteros hasta Bagdad. Y la conversación con el entonces Presidente Saddam Husseim para asegurar la asistencia de Irak, como ocurrió, a la Cumbre de Caracas.

[twistedpos]

42. Withholding Judgement on Chavez

Hello everyone, I am new to the board and generally progressive. But my politics come with a healthy dose of principle.

Chavez is going to have to do more than give Bush the finger before I get all warm and fuzzy about where is taking Venezuela. For now I will ignore the reports of widespead election fraud and wait for the day when Mr. Chavez voluntarily surrenders power and leaves office peacefully in whatever formal democratic process the people of Venezuela decide. Something that Fidel Castro has yet to do in Cuba, where the heinous act of expressing an opinion critical of the government is a crime.

[EFerrari]

51. Welcome to DU. And you know, waiting for Chavez

to step down isn't withholding judgment, is it? :)

[twistedpos]

68. Welcome to DU. And you know, waiting for Chavez reply

Thanks for the welcome.

Certainly it is withholding judgement.

Just like I withhold judgement on anyone I meet for the first time.
It is their actions that form my opinion.

Someone who comes to my home for the first time should obey certain basic rules, like not spitting on the floor.

Same for the leader of a country. At some point, they voluntarily and peacefully surrender power.

If Mr. Chavez refuses to voluntarily leave office, then at best I will consider him equivalent to someone who visits my home and spits on the floor.

[EFerrari]

77. It seems like a very narrow standard to apply, and in setting

it, you are passing judgment.

If your visitor put coats on your freezing kids and cleaned up the neighborhood, would you still wait for them to spit on your floor before leaving?

[twistedpos]

104. Chavez

If asked them to leave my home and they refused proceeding to have me arrested for making the demand in the first place, spitting on the floor is not relevant, nor are their good deeds.

A benign dictator is still a dictator. Not claiming that Chavez is. But I am old enough though to remember optimism that greeted Fidel Castro's rise to power. Castro built schools and hospitals and provided training for new physicians. He also put and continues to put people in jail for expressing opinions he dislikes.

To me it is another version of the right-wing nonsense question of "would you rather be blown up
by terrorists or surrender a few rights". In Castro's case, it is would you rather have your children educated and healthy or be able to criticize the government without fear of arrest. A free
people should never have to make a choice where one is mutually exclusive of the other.

Given Chavez's closeness to Castro, I will wait and see exactly how much like Castro Mr. Chavez
becomes.

[EFerrari]

105. But we were speaking of Chavez, not Castro.

Do you also worry that Mr. Bush will become Musharraf?

We hold Chavez to a different standard than that which we hold our own leaders to, it seems. And I don't understand why all the posters on this thread that are so worried about elections in VENEZUELA aren't in the Election Reform Forume every day helping us fight the Hinder American Voters Act which is being implemented as we speak.

Peace.

[twistedpos]

106. Bush, Chavez, Musharraf etc.

If the November 2008 elections are cancelled then yes I will worry about Mr. Bush becoming a dictator.

I agree, we are talking about Chavez, not Castro. But there is an old saying fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I see parallels between Castro and Chavez, hence the comparison and I have a healthy suspicion towards most politicans, foreign and domestic. Dennis Kucinich being a notable exception. Speaking only for myself (obviously) I think the concern is credibility. If progressives are to be seen
as people who truly believe in liberty, justice, and freedom, not partisan ideology, then we cannot
ignore tyranny of any stripe.

It is a healthy suspicion to which I do hold all politicians and vote accordingly based on my best
educated guess of what their leadership will entail. If I were a Venezuelan citizen, based on what I
know so far, I probably would have voted for Mr. Chavez. Fully expecting though that if he fails to
deliver on the promises made, I will have every right to organize, educate and vote him out of power.

Peace to you too.

If your board name is to be taken literally, I am a San Francisco resident (by marriage) now living
in the Central Valley hoping that Richard Pombo will soon be history.

[EFerrari]

115. Super! I'm actually an SF repat now. See you in

the CA forum. :)

[redqueen]

74. "more than give Bush the finger"

You really don't know that he already has done much more for the people of Venezuela?

Heh... yeah.

:hi:

Enjoy your stay.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

78. Judi Lynn's already done all that work.

Thanks for the insult!

:hi:

[AnOhioan]

96. That Kool-Aid taste good? n/t

[mike923]

43. Does Venezuela have term limits? If so, how long can he be in office?

[Piotr]

142. Yes. Six years with only one reelection possible, which must be immediate.

It used to be 5 years under the previous Constitution (1961), with only one reelection possibility, and with the incumbent having to wait 10 years after the end of the term to run again.

So, currently, Chávez could hold office for 12 years maximum, officially starting on the year 2000.

[Judi Lynn]

46. How Hugo Chávez Has Primed the Gas Pump

How Hugo Chávez Has Primed the Gas Pump
As OPEC leaders gather in Venezuela, the oil cartel hails the fiery leftist leader who has given it new muscle
By TIM PADGETT/CARACAS

Posted Wednesday, May. 31, 2006
When most Americans think of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries — OPEC, the world's most powerful energy cartel — they usually envision Arab sheikhs lording over oil drills in the desert. But the organization's more important home today arguably lies half a world away among the lush hills and beaches of Venezuela, which has the hemisphere's largest oil reserves.

Since leftist President Hugo Chávez began convincing the cartel's 11 member nations (of which Venezuela is a founder) to rein in world oil supply again after he took office in 1999, the price of crude has lept from less than $10 per barrel to a record $70-plus today. So Chávez is using the occasion of hosting a major OPEC meeting this week to trumpet the new mojo he's helped give OPEC — as well as to lobby to bring oil-producing neighbors like Ecuador into OPEC. "This OPEC meeting holds a lot of meaning for us," says Chávez's Energy Minister, Rafael Ramírez. "It's a celebration of the realization of our policies."

In an interview with TIME last week in Bolivia, where Venezuela is aiding the oil and natural-gas nationalization decreed this month by leftist President Evo Morales, Ramírez affirmed that he and Chávez will again call on OPEC to curtail oil production. The reason, he insisted, is to keep prices at "simply the fair market level for our most important natural resource," which now generates $83 billion per year for Venezuela compared to $53 billion in 2000. OPEC ministers will probably decline to cut back output much, if at all, especially since the record revenues they're enjoying would make it a difficult public relations feat. Still, Ramírez says he doubts the cartel will ever again allow prices to sink as low, or outputs to rise as high, as they did at the end of the 20th century, when Venezuela was even considering dropping out of OPEC shortly before Chávez's election.

At that time, Venezuela was a robust ally of the U.S., but Chávez has taken a decidedly (and often stridently) more anti-Washington tack — even diverting some of his exports to China and India to help break his country's dependence on the market to the North. "The traditional lack of control over natural resources like oil" among developing nations like OPEC's, Ramírez says, "has done profound damage to our economies for too long. We've created a new, more active awareness about our energy sovereignty."
(snip/...)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1199709,00.html

[EFerrari]

70. Venezuela Agrees not to Cut OPEC Production, Supports Iran

Venezuela Agrees not to Cut OPEC Production, Supports Iran
Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006
By: Alex Holland – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, Venezuela, 01 February 2006—Venezuelan Energy and Petroleum Minister Rafael Ramirez agreed not to cut oil production as Venezuelan officials had previously suggested. Also, Ramirez gave support to Iran in its nuclear disagreement with the UN Security Council. Ramirez said Venezuela supports, “Iran in the dispute on the nuclear issue.”

The meeting of OPEC, the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, took place in Vienna on January 31. In a speech in Venezuela on January 30, Chavez said, “We are producing at peak. Very few countries have the possibility of increasing their production.”

In Vienna on the same day, Ramirez went further than this, calling for an immediate cut in oil production of 1 million barrels per day. By the next day Ramirez had changed his position, saying that a cut in production could wait until March. All of the OPEC members in Vienna agreed to keep oil production at their current levels.

The reason for high oil prices was not under-production but, “pressures on producer countries, specifically on Iran,” said Ramirez. The Energy Minister also said, “There cannot be market stability if there is not stability in producer countries.”

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1882

(So, is Time confused or is my information outdates or is this another smear?)

[Judi Lynn]

92. I think we can ALWAYS expect a boatload of Bush-friendly perception

molding from U.S. corporate media sources, unfortunately. They are really out in force this week, due to the OPEC meeting. They are dragging out material they use only cyclically for this auspicious occassion!

Things really aren't going to be right anywhere until this country is lucky enough, Diebold willing, to get a Democratic President.

[EFerrari]

94. That's so true. We have to be really, really active readers.

I hope I'm not to old to be that. :silly:

[EFerrari]

56. I'm going to ask for a copy of his speech in Spanish.

This whole "Carlos the Jackal" thing stinks to heaven.

[Judi Lynn]

97. That's one item freeps love to toss around among themselves,

like trolls who've found a fresh piece of road kill. Actually they haven't taken enough time to grasp its meaning.

From the Miami Herald, in 1999:

The Miami Herald
April 17, 1999


President responded to terrorist's letter

CARACAS -- President Hugo Chavez confirmed Friday that he sent a letter
to the convicted terrorist known as Carlos the Jackal, and said he feels
``human solidarity'' with Venezuelan-born Illich Ramirez Sanchez, who is
serving a life sentence in a Paris prison.

``I was in prison for two years, and I know it is heartening when one receives
a letter,'' Chavez told reporters. He said he wrote to Ramirez two months ago,
shortly after being inaugurated as president, in response to a letter from
Ramirez.

Local media reported that Chavez's letter was friendly. ``This does not imply
political solidarity. It is simply human solidarity. Every human being deserves
respect,'' Chavez said.
(snip/)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/guerrilla/letter.htm

[EFerrari]

98. I bet they do. "Human solidarity" must be an oxymoran

for them.

Who talks to anyone they don't agree with 100% any way? :sarcasm:

[redqueen]

100. So the whole "previous comments about the Jackal" is a red herring

I mean, *another* red herring?

Amazing... I'm so shocked the latest charge didn't stick. :roll:

[EFerrari]

101. All you have to do is believe what he actually said

instead of the American press. :eyes:

[redqueen]

103. But the American press is honest and trustworthy!

I mean ... didn't you see all that coverage about how his ouster in that coup was mysteriously referred to as a 'resignation' by many major newspapers!

We really saw the US media get to the bottom of that little bit of anti-democracy in action!

/sarcasm

[Judi Lynn]

108. They try to drag it out whenever they think no one's around who knows

the background on it, hoping to get some real mileage with it on the record before someone locates a remedy link!

Idiots!

[redqueen]

113. Well thank you ONCE AGAIN

for providing the information needed to counter the talking points.

:yourock:

[PeaceProgProsp]

107. Here's the text of the letter, BTW

with a google tranlation, (it sounds like Chavez is trying tell Carlos that violence isn't the path...there is a season, turn, turn, turn).

Citizen
Ilich Ramirez Sanchez
Present
Distinguished Compatriot:

Swimming in the depths of its shared in common letter I could auscultate a little the thoughts and the feeling, is that everything has its time: to accumulate stones, or to throw them… to give heat to the revolution or to ignore it; to advance dialectically uniting what must be united between the classes in struggle or causing the confrontation between the same ones, according to the thesis of Iván Ilich Ulianov. Time to be able to fight by ideals and time of not being able but to value the own fight… Time of opportunity, the fine sense of smell and the instinct on the lookout to reach the propitious psychological moment at which Ariadna, invested with laws, lays the thread that allows her to leave the labyrinth…

Liberator Simón Bolivar, whose theory and praxis inform the doctrine that bases our revolution, in esfíngica invocation to God dropped this preludial phrase of their physical disappearance: How I will be able to leave this labyrinth…! The phrase, of content tacit and gathered by its attending physician, the French Prosperous Alexander Reverend in its Memories, is deep flame of illumination of the way that we followed.

Another French, Alexander Dumas, in The Count pf Montecristo with this phrase of Jesus ended his book: “The life of the men is based in two words: To trust and To hope," inducing one to think that at the end of the battle will appear some Supreme Somebody that, invested with the wisdom of the Faría Father inspired the exit, surrounded in new revolutionary syntheses in approach the God that each one takes in its heart.

Let us say with Bolivar who the time will only make prodigies as soon as we maintain rectitude of spirit and as soon as we observe those necessary relations that they are derived from the nature of the things. The humanity is a single one and there is magnitude no space-time that stops the thought of the Caracas hero. Let us say with him:

I feel that the energy of my soul rises, is high and mighty and she is always equaled to the magnitude of the dangers. My doctor has said me that my soul needs to feed itself on dangers to conserve my judgment, so that when creating God allowed this stormy revolution to me, so that I could live occupied in my special destiny.

With deep faith in the cause and the mission! for now and for always!

http://www.analitica.com/bitblioteca/hchavez/carta_chacal.asp

[ronnie624]

186. I will NEVER accept translations

by corporate media sources of the words of foreign leaders that have been declared enemies by the corporatist forces within our government. Just how naive can one be?

[jseankil]

71. Chavez wants to keep oil prices high, cut production

Chavez proposed minimum of $50 on crude

"There is enough oil on the market. We even believe there is an excess of oil on the market," Chavez said.

"We'll have to be very watchful," he said. "$50 is a fair price, but as a minimum. That's how we see it."

The Venezuelan president has long championed the idea of keeping oil prices high within OPEC. For the last two meetings Venezuela has called on member countries to cut production, but other countries have been unwilling.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Venezuela_OPEC_Chavez.html

[EFerrari]

80. Then, how do you explain the article I found -- immediately

above your post? Is there more current information?

[jerry611]

88. I am basing my opinion on history, not an article

Anyone that has studied history knows that the west is typically a target for socialists and communists. Vladimir Lenin once stated that economic collapse of the west is required for communism to grow and flourish.
Communists ALWAYS blame the failures of communism on capitalism. And who in the world is the heart and soul of capitalism? THE UNITED STATES.

So a socialist dictator comes to power in Venezeuela. Why am I not surprised that he thinks of the US as the greatest enemy in the world?

Plus, look at the crap comming out of Chavez's mouth. A few weeks ago he made a speech that Bush is the greatest genocidal killer in human history. Now I am no Bush fan by any stretch. And Bush may have killed some innocents. But Bush being the most genocidal man in history? Bush isn't even in the top 100.
And I guess Hugo agrees with Iran that the Holocaust never happened.

Half the stuff he says is BS. It is nothing but to provoke trouble.

[GirlinContempt]

112. Do you know WHY the west is targeted?

Because the 'west' goes in, colonizes, pillages, destroys and subjugates. The 'west' and 'capitalism' have a reason to keep these people poor, and they do. That is why the 'west' is targeted.

The US is considered the greatest enemy in the world because of the havoc it wreaks in other nations, to ensure it's lazy bourgeois citizens get their t-shirts and jeans at the lowest possible price with the most money going in the pockets of the CEOs.

[AnOhioan]

150. Thank you GirlinContempt

Your post summed it up better than I could have.

Great job.

[Piotr]

202. Yes? Well, if you know, the West hasn't exactly held the monopoly on

colonization, pillaging , destruction and subjugation. No, it has been a defining attribute of cultures the world over.

The Aztecs?
The Japanese?
The Chinese?
The Mongols?
The Egyptians and the entire Babylonian-Sumerian epoch Middle East?
The Ottomans;
The Vikings!
The Russians;
The African Kingdoms;
The Native North American nations;...

Imperialism has been around long before the "rise of the West".

[ronnie624]

211. None of the examples you gave

have ever approached the scale of the imperialism practiced by the West during the past 150 years or so, neither can they boast of such effective brutality.

But that is all irrelevant anyway. We live here and now and we are obligated to end U.S. imperialism, not make excuses for it by pointing to other examples in ancient history.

[Piotr]

219. That's a rather ambiguous statement.

I could simply say "not true" and leave it at that, no?

If it's for technological and population reasons, then remember that there has never been this kind of technology or population before. But pillaging? Yes, that has been practiced- and on scales "worse" than the US. Kidnapping and raping women and murdering babies? That too. Enslaving entire populations? That too. Burning cities to the ground? Destroying cultures and enforcing a particular one? That too has happened. Piliing pyramids of skulls in front of conquered cities? Yep. And all that, sometimes without even a declaration of war!

Even in the modern era, non-Western governments and rulers have also used this technology. Chemical and biological weapons? (IE, Japan in WWII) Yes; Bombs, guns, mines? Yes, that too.

Population wise? Please! That doesn't even approach the amount of people killed by Stalin, the Khmer Rouge, Mao, FARC, and other Marxist-based organisations (although the West might be partly to blame there, however; after all, Marxism was first a Western invention)!

Economic imperialism? That's just a spin; and even then it's probably unintentional anyway, too. You can't also accuse the West of not trying to mend its damages. Human Rights organizations? Live Aid? Donations? The UN Humanitarian branches? Envrionmentalists? Worker's unions (the US has them, and China doens't, for instance)? The Human Rights Charter?

There is something I'd like to say about outsourcing, though: it's really a terrible thing, in my opinion. It's just as bad as the imperialism of the 1700 and 1800s, when European rulers would do to foreign populations what they wouldn't even normally consider doing to their own: slavery, exploitaiton, etc. Today, it emphasizes the cynical approach of those corporations whose main concern is indeed making profits at any cost.

But then you could consider the hand that the government where the labor force is being outsourced has played.

I mean, come on.

[PeaceProgProsp]

220. Many cultures weren't imperialists. Mayans, for instance

didn't try to build an imperial empire.

For most of Egypt's 3,000 year history, they haven't tried to be an empire. They've focussed their energies only on the fertile area surrounding the Nile.

[Piotr]

247. Yes, that is true. Still, there are many cultures who were imperialistic,

either wholly or at some point in their history. Examples are those I posted above, and even the Egyptians were occasional imperialists, especially during the New Kingdom (Thutmose III and Ramses II's reigns come to mind).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramses_II

[rman]

179. Anyone who has studied history

knows that Latin America has always been a target of various US interventions.


What I've Learned About U S Foreign Policy
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1220
The basic message being that the CIA, the military-industrial-complex, the Pentagon, the multinational corporations, the media and the Government of the United States are responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the third world, not to mention the poverty and oppression of millions more. We support, arm, and train dictators and militaries that do these evil actions to their own people. All of this is to insure that we control the natural resources of these countries and their market place, use the people for cheap labor and keep the business of war (which is our biggest business) ongoing.

----

Overthrow - America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq
Democracy Now
Friday, April 21st, 2006

part 1
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/21/132247&mode=thread&tid=25
part 2
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/08/1353206
(video, audio, transcript)

Interview with former New York Times foreign correspondent, Steve Kinzer. Kinzer's new book is titled, "Overthrow: America"s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq." In it, he examines how the United States has thwarted independence movements in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and Nicaragua; staged covert actions and coups d'etat in Iran, Guatemala, South Vietnam and Chile; and invaded Grenada, Panama and Afghanistan and Iraq.

Kinzer argues that over 110 years, the United States has deployed its power to gain access to natural resources, stifle dissent and control the nationalism of newly independent states or political movements. I interviewed Kinzer in Chicago last month.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, you are looking at 14 coups that the U.S. was involved with. What was the primary reason for the U.S. government's involvement in overthrowing other countries' governments?

STEPHEN KINZER: A lot of these coups have been studied individually, but what I'm trying to do in my book is see them not as a series of isolated incidents, but rather as one long continuum. And by looking at them that way, I am able to tease out certain patterns that recur over and over again. They don't all fit the same pattern, but it's amazing how many of them do.

snippet from part 2:

In Guatemala, economic life was totally dominated by one American company: the United Fruit Company. It was a uniquely powerful company, had great ties in Washington. Many of the senior people in the Eisenhower administration were either stockholders or former board members or otherwise closely connected with United Fruit. Now, in Guatemala, not only was United Fruit producing most of that country's banana exports, but it also owned more than half a million acres of land, some of the richest land in the country, that it didn't use. It was just holding this land for some potential future use.

Now, President Arbenz, who was in power in Guatemala in the early 1950s, wanted to take that land and use it to divide up among starving Guatemalan peasants. And with a democratic vote of the elected Guatemalan congress, a land reform law was passed that required the United Fruit Company to sell its unused land to the Guatemalan government at the price that United Fruit had declared on its last years tax returns as the value of that land. Well, naturally the fruit company went crazy when they got this request and said, Of course, nobody puts down the real value of the land on their tax returns, and really the price should be about ten times higher than that. But the government said, I'm sorry. This is the way you have, yourself, valued the land, and so we're insisting that you sell it to us at this price.

Well, this is what set the United Fruit Company in operation in Washington. It persuaded the Eisenhower administration that the Arbenz government would not have been taking steps like this, would not have launched a land reform program, would not have tried to take land from the United Fruit Company, if it were not fundamentally anti-American. In addition, there was the overlay of the Cold War. So the United Fruit Company was able to persuade the U.S. government that not only was this government hostile to an American corporate interest in Guatemala, but it was undoubtedly a tool of the Kremlin which was, as Americans then thought, working all over the world to undermine American interests.

Now, during the run-up to the Guatemala coup, the Brazilian ambassador actually came in to see Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and asked him if he was sure, if he had proof that the Soviets were manipulating Guatemala, and Dulles very frankly answered, We do not have that proof, but we are proceeding as if it must be so. So the United States with relative ease overthrew the government of Guatemala.

----

United Fruit Company and Zapata
It's a small world after all...

Zapata Oil was formed in 1953 by George H.W. Bush and Brown Brothers Harriman. Later George H.W. Bush bought the subsidiary Zapata Off-Shore and went into business for himself. It merged in 1963 with Penn to form Pennzoil. Even though Zapata never found any oil, it was succesfully sold in 1966 to Robert Gow. (All SEC filings between 1960 and 1966 were sadly destroyed in 1981)

In 1969 Zapata bought the United Fruit Company. On the board of directors was Ralph Gow, Robert Gow's father. Later that year on sept. 24. Eli Black makes the third largest transaction in Wall Street history up to that moment by buying 733,000 shares of United Fruit in a single day. Black becomes the largest shareholder of the company. In June 1970 United Fruit merges with AMK-John Morrell to become the United Brands Company.

After Eli Black's spectacular suicide on February 3, 1975 he jumped out of the window of his New York City office on the 44th floor of the Pan Am Building Cincinnati-based American Financial, one of millionarie Carl H. Lindner, Jr.'s companies, bought into United Fruit. In August 1984, Lindner took control of the company and renamed it Chiquita Brands International.

[rman]

178. $50 is high, $70 is not high.

impeccable logic.

[stepnw1f]

109. The Neo-Cons Will Lose This Argument

Because their lies are too easily debunked, and their operatives are stupid and misinformed.

Viva Chavez, a leader of the people for the people and not Exxon.

[Judi Lynn]

110. Kick for observers of the last crop!

[Judi Lynn]

116. For Venezuela, a Treasure in Oil Sludge

For Venezuela, a Treasure in Oil Sludge


By JUAN FORERO
Published: June 1, 2006

PUERTO LA CRUZ, Venezuela — The sludge in the glass jar on David Nelson's bookshelf here is thicker than molasses and was once thought worthless. But the Chevron Corporation, whose operations he runs in eastern Venezuela, has spent about $1 billion turning what was once called liquid coal into oil, helping transform a swath of scrub grass into a great frontier for oil production.

The region, the Orinoco Belt, is in fact so promising that President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela says it contains up to 235 billion barrels of recoverable oil; if true, the reserves would rival those of Saudi Arabia.

"We do know that the Orinoco is underdeveloped," said Mr. Nelson, 49, a geologist from California with 27 years' experience developing heavy-grade oil. "And the resources in the Middle East are at their midpoint."

This great, largely untapped treasure is pitting a leftist government aiming to use oil revenue for social programs against multinational corporations like Chevron, which were invited here a decade ago to develop the Orinoco Belt, a 54-square-mile area some 120 miles south of here.
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/01/business/worldbusiness/01oil.html

[genieroze]

126. US says Chavez meddles? Pot meet kettle.

[1932]

135. Yeah. He's meddling in the US. He's filling a lot of American heads with

ideas about how governments can actually exist for the benefit of the people.

[stepnw1f]

156. Yeah... and that there is the motive

for Anti-Chavez shit being spread on DU isn't it? A fear that socialism may take root here in the states once again. A new "New Deal"... I think it's already happening and those who stand in it's way will be remebered as backward regressive sychophants for the wealthy power brokers currently running the show.

Viva Chavez! And here's to a balance between Capitalism and Socialism :toast:

[1932]

157. Amen.

[xchrom]

172. you hit it on the head.

[TankLV]

187. There is NOTHING wrong with SOCIALISM!

NOTHING!

I hope and pray that we can get rid of all the REPUKE rollbacks on FDR's "NEW DEAL" and move even further on PROGRESS to AUGMENT those reforms!

[redqueen]

240. If only more people would believe it...

and then take action to make it happen here. Instead of dreaming about a winning lotto ticket, or whatever other dreams they have which keeps them protective of the overclass they hope to someday join.

If only...

[Bushwick Bill]

189. Everybody Must Watch This Chavez Movie!

Many of you have probably seen this, but I didn't until yesterday. It is impossible not to love this guy after watching this Irish documentary on him.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[Judi Lynn]

190. Thank you, Bushwick Bill! I've seen it, & now I'm seeing it again, thanks

to you and that link! It's WONDERFUL.

Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Judi Lynn]

191. Had to come back to thank you again. Just finished seeing

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I had forgotten how many things the interim occupation government did to destroy the government: they tried to terminate the National Assembly, the Attorney General, the Constitution, the Supreme Court, the head of the Central Bank, the Omsbudsman, and the National Electoral Board. The high-ranking cabinet people went into hiding because they were trying to arrest them, too, they (coup people) even CLEANED OUT THE SAFE in Miraflores Palace before they sneaked out! Good lord.

When they knew the game was up, they sneaked out of the palace and hid until they were all safe. Pedro Carmona fled to Colombia, and then to MIAMI, of course!

The _Bush spokesman said he brought it on himself, even though everyone knew it was hatched by the U.S. I had forgotten, momentarily, that after they kidnapped Chavez and took him away to an island where no one could come to save him, a United States air plane landed and was preparing to fly him off the island, and they think they were going to try to take him to the Dominican Republic. (Close friends of U.S. Presidents have a large resort there: the Cuban "exiles" Alfie, Pepe, and brothers, Fanjul. They buy all kinds of U.S. politicians. I'll bet they planned to keep him prisoner there.)

Jeezus H. Christ.

The part the media played is even more conspicuous the second time you see it. Those people are lucky they haven't all been thrown in jail.

I would reccommend people see this documentary once a year, if they can control their anger. Thank you so much.

What a film.

[upi402]

213. MUST SEE

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[confludemocrat]

218. Imagine. All the US attacks on him&others are about the % take of Big Oil

from Venezuela and others, and that Chavez and others are merely trying to make it less of rip-off of his country. That's the gist of it. They (Bush crowd and Big Oil, one being the political arm and the other the money arm of the same mafia) could give two shits about freedom and democracy although they will use that keep people, including many weak and feeble milque toast "liberals" (neo-liberal enablers and fellow travelers) stirred up against Chavez and others like him who want the neo-liberal way killed off.

[upi402]

227. why do some Dems hate him?

I don't get that...

[1932]

232. Because some Dems are neolberal, pro-globalization, pro-free traders

who don't have faith that America can produce enough wealth to keep people on top living a lifestyle to which they've become accustomerd unless we extract a lot of valuable resources from developing countries at unfair prices.

Personally, I have much more faith in the US. I believe that the US can play fair in the world and that we'll still be able to make a lot of Americans (along with a lot of our neighbors) live dignified, fulfilling, happy lives. We probably can't do that without reducing the incredible polarization of wealth in the US, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if we reduced the difference between the wealthiest and poorest in our society.

[Megahurtz]

254. The Guy's Got Guts.

I admire that!:7

[Moderator]

255. Lock

No longer breaking news