Oil firms oppose ethanol incentive

[lovuian]

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=e335c4f6df16a0a5

.S. oil companies are denouncing federal legislation to reimburse service stations for installing alternative motor fuel equipment.

The American Petroleum Institute said Wednesday there is no need to encourage sales of alternative fuels, particularly the 85 percent ethanol fuel known as E85, as such sales are already rising sharply.

The oil industry is already aggressively adding ethanol to the nation's gasoline pool in the smartest and safest way, the API said Wednesday in a statement. In fact, the oil industry is using more than 4 billion gallons of ethanol a year and will use at least 7.5 billion gallons of biofuels per year by 2012, under the terms of the Energy Policy Act of 2005. In many regions of the country, consumers already are driving on a mixture of gasoline with 5.7 to 10 percent ethanol.

The legislation would tap the Leaking Underground Storage Tank trust fund to reimburse service stations for costs of handling alternative fuels.
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I'm not surprised!!! are you???

[Kutjara]

1. Nope, pushers don't like it...

...when the junkies start getting smart.

[Canuckistanian]

2. Tough! It's a capitalist society

If I want to buy ethanol fuel they'll either have to compete or lose market share.

No one gets a free ride.

[MacDuff]

3. Well....

since: the price of corn is about half of what it should be without YOUR tax dollars keeping it artificially low...and it takes a huge amount of diesel to grow, fertilize, pest control, harvest, transport....and LOTS of natural gas to MAKE the ethanol....and then there are incentives on making the ethanol...and then, a gallon of ethanol has only 70% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline...

and we're talking about using land that could be used for food production to keep our car culture alive...

so you tell me - is it evil oil companies? or is Arthur Daniels Midlands out to make a LOT of $ on poor energy return on investment?

Ethanol is not going to save us - and before you mention Brazil, you should know that sugar cane doesn't really grow much in the Continental US, we don't have near-slave labor to harvest it, we have a LOT more cars, and ethanol only fills 1/10 of Brazil's liquid fuel needs

Oil companies are not my friends (especially American ones) - but get the facts straight...crude oil is the most compact energy source in the history of the world - and we've got about 30 year's worth left - and the US is doing NOTHING but complaining about the high cost of gasoline to prepare for oil's demise

if you converted ALL the agricultural land in the US to either ethanol or bio diesel - you STILL wouldn't be able to replace crude oil - and of course, nobody would be eating anything....

[Kajsa]

4. OK, but what about all the sugar plantations

that shut down in Hawaii?

This could be accomplishing two goals- New jobs, better economy
and an alternative fuel source.

I'm sure many Hawaiians would be glad to see their economy boosted
by something other than tourism.

[MacDuff]

5. I do know

that the Hawaiian islands don't have anywhere NEAR the amount of land that Brazil has to grow sugar cane on...and no (near) slave labor to do the work

my guess on why the sugarcane fields aren't in Hawaii so much? cheap Brazilian sugar cane beats the price of expensive Hawaiian sugar cane hands down - PLUS think how much food in the US is sweetened with CORN syrup rather than sugar - Coke wasn't the only one to make the switch - and corn has those nice fat tax subsidies on it...keepin it cheap...

again, there is NO WAY we can grow enough crops to replace crude oil with ethanol (besides which crude gives us ALL sorts of things like aviation gas, heating oil, asphalt etc. that ethanol can't replace) - and if we could it would cut so deeply into food production that we'd starve

personally, I'd rather walk/bike and be able to eat - and yes, I believe it will come to that...

ethanol is a giveaway to ADM and corn-growing states - with our tax dollars

[Kajsa]

6. I wish there was some way it could work,

without jeopardizing our food supply and environment.

Those mills are deserted, and the islands' economy sure could use a boost.

Besides, that crap called high fructose corn syrup is finally getting exposed
for the processed junk additive it is!

I won't buy it, in anything, period.
( It requires reading nearly every label on food items I purchase)

[MacDuff]

7. there are lots of things that would be great

but face serious problems in making happen....

and yes, corn syrup is nasty stuff - it's in nearly everything - and explains a good deal of the US's problem with obesity....

Peak Oil is either here or nearly here - and we humans haven't faced anything like it yet (lack of replacement for a crucial product) - how we respond will be very telling about our potential for survival in the long run...

I did notice that France announced it will be converting to 100% of it's trains running on electricity - and France already produces 90% of it's electricity through nuclear power - that and their highly localized food production network puts them in very good shape for peak oil...(and perhaps the last laugh for the whole "Freedom Fries" "Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys" thing...)

[Kajsa]

11. France is thinking ahead,

as are many countries in Europe.

No doubt the French are smiling at the irony!

[saigon68]

16. Good Points--

Both sides in the argument have good points

Archer Daniels Midland is no better than the Shell Oil Co. (They are profit driven)

[dapper]

19. 70%? Where did you get that number?

I get about 86% based on my actual use and it saves me money over gas prices.

I like having an alternative fuel source and even though it's not perfect, it gets the ball rolling on fine tuning engines to work with the ethenol and other fuel sources.

There are many resources that can be used to make ethenol, you pointed out the Sugar Cane. More research will bring more options. Let's not kill every idea that comes around.

Dap

[lovuian]

8. Ethanol could help especially if we get fuel effecient cars

and mass transit...

[MacDuff]

9. ethanol could help?

well, maybe - I'd like to see what it would cost/gallon without any subsidies - give us an idea of what we are talking about...but it will never replace oil

now mass transit is a really good idea - but it's going to be hard to impliment in times of decreasing revenues as Peak Oil rears it's very ugly head - with peak natural gas 10 years behind to give us a kick when we're down

[rocktivity]

10. Candidate for this month's "You Call This NEWS?" award

So this ethanol stuff will take a little money out of their pockets, espcecially if the Dems take over. That's no reason to believe the oil industry's intentions are less than honorable...

:eyes:
rocknation

[George1984]

12. Alternative fuel costs

There is an interesting article in this month's Popular Science about the actual costs and energy production from various alternative fuels. A great read to inform everyone on the hurdles that need to be covered to actually replace crude oil.

As for alternatives to fossil fuels there are many out there that just aren't being taken advantage of. There is wind power, of course the unsightly turbines are noisy and take up space, once they are up, they are virtually maintenance free and wind is free. There is tidal power, it interferes with some fish habitats, but the way the governments are going they will continue to be over fished and soon the coasts of North America will be free and clear of protecting them. I have read though there are many places along the west coast of Canada and the U.S that are excellent candidates for this technology, but it is expensive to get up and running. Once it is in place and with technology improvements the tide runs daily and doesn't cost anything.

We also have the earth for geothermal heating. The technology is there, the cost is not much more than setting up electrical or natural gas heating, and once it is running, it heats and cools the home, heats water and uses the same amount electricity as the furnace motor and fan in a natural gas heating system. To work, geothermal only needs a 5 degree temperature shift, and works in northern Canada, so to use it anywhere in the United States is not a problem. Of the oil used in the U.S, I believe 25% is used for heating, mainly in the Northeast. Think of what gasoline would cost if the U.S, the world's largest user of fossil fuels cut back on 25% of its consumption?

And of course there is the sun. Always there, and when it decides to pack up and quit, we are all done anyways, so we might as well use it. Solar panels have become quite efficient and cost effective, with 3 large panels on the roof of a 1200 sq ft home providing extra power for the grid. I am sorry I do not remember the dimensions of the panels, but the cover 2/3s of the roof.

So there are many options out there, but of course they don't contribute to the political coffers like the crude boys do, so until they figure out how to charge you for the use of the tide, the sun, and the wind, we are stuck with the use of dinosaurs, much like Washington :)

[iconoclastNYC]

13. End the fossil monopolies!!!!

Ethanol is a good near term move to address the fossil fuel problem.

We need to go full speed ahead on wind, on solar, on conservation, and Ethanol.

Pay farmers to grow our gasoline, pay Americans to refine it. Jobs for the USA, a diversified fuel
portfolio, and less money for middle eastern tyrants.

[goforit]

18. YES!.....Such a beautiful sound to our ears!!!

[dapper]

20. previously from NY....

and I agree with you.
Ethenol is a start. Solar, Wind even Hydro (if they don't polute the rivers) energies should already be here... but everyone bickers and fights about their locations. "Not in my backyard"

There's a hydro plant not too far from where I am. It's pretty cool but the place looks a bit run down.

Dap

[SupplyConcerns]

14. Don't be fools - ethanol is a net energy loser

America's ethanol supply takes more energy to create than you get out of it. It's more fuel efficient to just burn petroleum. It's a concept called EROI. Sorry if I sound impatient, but I'm tired of having to explain this basic fact to people. Ethanol gets carried along by politicians who get to say that they're being "green" while handing out farm subsidies, which are always popular, especially for anyone concerned with the Iowa caucaus. There's also demand from the public, by people with good intentions who just don't know what they're talking about.

[roguevalley]

15. nationalize them. traitors.

[happydreams]

17. Puerile arguments by the Petroleum Institute.

If we're going to subsidize oil companies and fight wars so they can keep us swimming in oil, why not subsidize a environmentally friendly fuel that doesn't rely on foreign sources?