Should pain play a part in learning? (NY State)

[NeoConsSuck]

The state Education Department is surveying dozens of schools across the state and elsewhere in an effort to catalog "aversive therapies" -- painful, potentially harmful practices -- that are used on emotionally and psychologically disturbed youngsters.

The survey comes as the Board of Regents later this month is expected to start talking about guidelines for what kinds of therapies should be acceptable for schools to use to control and help change the behavior of such kids.

The survey cites as examples a variety of aversive methods, including hitting, slapping, pinching, kicking, hurling, using painful or intrusive sprays or inhalants, and withholding sleep, shelter, bedding or bathroom facilities. It also lists chemical restraints and electric shock as therapies these special schools may be using.

The survey was prompted by complaints earlier this year that New York students who were sent to the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Mass., were subjected to electric shocks when they misbehaved or hurt themselves. The shocks came from a backpack they were made to wear.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=482318&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=5/16/2006

[MisterP]

1. this is a bad (but not new) trend in parenting:

from "hot saucing" to WWASP, it's "declare war on your children," beat them down into submission

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Sweet Jesus, I was gonna say yes - didn't realize you meant abuse.

I thought you meant, like, the pain of failure or staying up overnight to finish a paper, or having too much work to do... that kind of pain I think is necessary.

But I didn't think anyone would seriously consider shock therapy or kicking. Sweet Jesus!

Of course that's not appopriate! Even for the emotionally disturbed, I should think that any abhorrent behavior can be adjusted through non-violent methods. Will it take longer? More than likely. But it will also be more lasting once it's done.

For fuck's sake, we're not Klingons. Put the pain sticks away!

[Redstone]

3. Hey, just like the nuns used to do to us back in the early Sixties!

Redstone

[Trillo]

6. Not just nuns in private schools-- Public schools, too!

They used a wooden paddle on a bared ass in the privacy of the principal's office for selected students.

It was nothing like what is described in the article, however. That seems like child torture.

[Redstone]

7. Yes, this does seem much worse thant even the nuns.

The nuns were "just the way it was." This is organized and condoned at the highest levels, which makes it much worse.

I was not trying to trivialize the original post. I share the OP's horror at this.

There is never, ever, any excuse for abusing children. And this is child abuse, plain and simple.

Redstone

[AX10]

4. NAMES! I WANT NAMES of the perverted pigs who thought of this!

:grr:

:wtf: is this shit??? "The survey was prompted by complaints earlier this year that New York students who were sent to the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Mass., were subjected to electric shocks when they misbehaved or hurt themselves. The shocks came from a backpack they were made to wear."

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

[anotherdrew]

8. yes, the responsible individuals need to pay dearly for these atrocities

jail time at the least.

[Knurled99]

5. Wow,,, I'm almost speechless...

I've been told by a couple friends who graduated with psych degrees from good schools (U of Florida, San Diego State, UCLA) that negative reinforcement isn't nearly as effective as positive reinforcement of behavior that is intended to get attention. Ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good behavior works better than giving them the attention they seek with martial punishment. It's hard to imagine subjecting any kids to that kind of pain, but emotionally disturbed kids? Good God...

Edited for clarity

[struggle4progress]

9. Could whackin the Regents now & then widda 2x4 improve their policy-

makin abilities, ya think?

[Kailassa]

10. I read the sickening stories about that centre.

They caused the death of at least one girl, through torture and starvation.

Starvation was another of their "approved methods", and the fact that a retarded child's weight had dropped dangerously low didn't stop them. The painful punishments made her scream, and then she was punished for screaming. Definitely a bunch of sadistic m/fs running that place.

The idea that anyone would seriously consider emulating these "methods" is just sickening.

I hypothesize that when people are made aware of too much pain around them, pain they can do nothing to avert, they lose their ability to empathize as a defense mechanism. Our societies now, (America and Australia,) are now conditioned to the idea of our governments torturing people, and prepared to use torture in other settings as well. People are being changed into very tame wild beasts, who will go along with whatever the neo(nazi)cons want.

A neighbour who saw what I'd do when my huge, half savage tomcat scratched me or peed on the carpet was horrified, saying he'd get unmanageable if I didn't punish him. My tactic has been to cuddle him, look him him in the eyes and kiss his forehead, which he loves, and tell him I know he'd rather be a good pussy for me. Well, it had worked on my granddaughter. (I did call her "girl" and not "pussy") It's about a year now since he has either peed inside or scratched me, and he'd rather smooch than eat.

One son went to a special school for retarded kids, Heathmont, and no kid there was physical punished or cruelly treated ever, and they had some (initially) difficult kids. But the teachers were a bunch of special people, working there because they loved the kids, and the kids could feel that warmth and acceptance.

It takes hearts, not hurts, to change behaviour.

[truthisfreedom]

11. not to say that i have the patience to deal with disturbed children, nor

does 90% of the population, but someone out there must have the patience and heart to help these kids. my own childhood was intensely violent. i wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[AndyTiedye]

12. They Hurt Them as Punishment For Hurting Themselves!?

Does anybody else see something wrong with this picture?

[Triana]

13. They're advocating child abuse?!

What fresh "pro-life", "family values", "compassionate conservatism" Hell is THIS?

:wtf:

Even if the "education department" isn't CONservative, their attitudes certainly are.

[genieroze]

14. They punish kids for being autistic? I thought autistic kids were more

sensitive to physical stimuli. That seems like torture to me. Kids with behavioral problems like what, violence? Oh, so lets show them more violence. What's a chemical restraint? drugging?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

15. Has anybody actually tried just loving these kids?

I know it seems like an obvious question; but I wonder...

I don't mean that they shouldn't be disciplined; but first and foremost, shouldn't the kids know that they are valued...not just shut away to protect people from them? Shouldn't they learn that the discipline is not punishment (revenge for their misdeed); but rather an effort on their behalf, to help them be the wonderful people they're capable of being?