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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:03 AM
Original message
Global stock markets tumble as U.S. dollar shatters
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=9b6a1c22154c3bcf

Markets around the world plummeted Friday as the U.S. dollar went into freefall.

The American currency's near collapse followed several weeks of declines, which has seen the dollar lose 7% of its value against the euro, yen, and the pound,in the last month alone. The dollar index (weighted against a number of currencies) has fallen to its lowest level since October 1997. The relentless selling has failed to cause even the shallowest of corrections. Friday's announcement by the Trade Department of a 5.6% fall in the trade deficit for April, coming in at $62 billion against analysts expectations of $67 billion, failed to arrest the slide.

The dollar rout has unnerved global stock markets with major falls being recorded in Asia, Europe, and the Americas. London's FTSE 100 fell 129.90 or 2.15% to 5,912.10. The Paris-based CAC 40 at 5,150.45 was down 112.49 or 2.14%. The German DAX fell 138.44 or 2.29% to 5,916.28. The Amsterdam Exchanges index was off 11.79 or 2.53% at 455.09. In Sweden the OMX Stockholm 30 index fell 29.71 or 2.85% to 1,013.69. The Swiss SMI shed 143.17 or 1.77% to 7,954.10.

In Asia Japan's Nikkei 225 ended the day down 260.36 points or 1.54% at 16,601.78. The Hong Kong Hang Seng fell 238.93 or 1.39% at 16,901.85.

Middle East markets, where the week ends on Thursdays, suffered one of their worst weeks ever. Most Mideast currencies are pegged to the dollar which means the value of stock investments held by foreigners has been plummeting in line with the U.S. currency. The Dubai stock market shed 14.35% for the week, while the Abu Dhabi market gave up 10.49%. Market analysts fear the stock meltdown may feed into the propery sector which is overblown, particularly in Dubai. Emaar, the emirate's largest property developer lost 22.8%, more than a fifth of its value, over the week.
more...

some disturbing financial times...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. And I can't even get a date!
:rofl:

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, fuck!
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jschurchin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well Said!!!!
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. NPR reported today that the Saudi Arabian index (IIRC) is down 50% since
January, but then they did some happy talk on why that isn't bad (something about how people selling now already made a lot of money, and something about there not being a lot of foreign money in the market). Sounded like BS to me.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. IIRC is pretty meaningless outside of SA
it's all Saudi money, not a widely traded or invested in market. Still, not a good sign for Riyadh.

when you think about it, there is more Saudi money in Dow or S+P500 than in the IIRC, so it's not that important. it means that Saudis are taking their money outside of the country.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. IIRC = "If I remember correctly"
I'm not sure whether it was the SA index, or the Dubai index, or some other index which dropped 50 pc. (However, the report said they've all been dropping.)

I still think it's significant when share prices devalue that much, regardless of whether you think the money is coming out and going somewhere else.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
102. Funny how Lyndon LaRouce spoke about this last year and everyone
called him a fool. Just heard him today and he spoke about a prescription for saving the banking system from the absolute rout but says that the banking system of EU is in "private hands and control" and the only hope for the US is its Constitution which allows for the Feds to take over the banking system. I think folks need to pay a bit more attention to some of LaRouche's rantings.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Broken clock.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Unfortunately, in dysfunctional governments, the fix for this is war.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. You mean, as opposed to governments like the one we have now...?
:shrug:

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Touche, regnaD kciN
"Dangerous" times, eh? ;)
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
76. We've been at war for over 3 years. It won't fix it. We have no
manufacturing base like we did after WWII and our debt is massive. Republicans live in the past so they don't seem to realize this.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. Anyone know what folks on the currency trading forums are saying tonight?
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. self-delete
Edited on Sat May-13-06 01:29 AM by Dunvegan
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Frank Veneroso has been predicting this publically for two years..
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. Kuwait revalues dinar, Saudi to follow
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\05\12\story_12-5-2006_pg5_22
snip...

The Gulf states all staunch US allies, also came under rare public pressure from the United States this year to address their mounting current account balance of payments surpluses
snip...
At their April meeting in Washington, finance chiefs from the Group of Seven industrial powers also called for shared responsibility for redressing global imbalances and said it was up to the market to do so. “This is consistent with the G7 communiqué,” said Dwyfor Evans at Bank of America. “If you’re going to revalue, it makes sense to do it when oil is above $70 a barrel”.

Fed following: Kuwait usually matches US Federal Reserve rate changes within days but has not followed the last few moves. It has so far left the benchmark dinar discount rate unchanged at 6 percent after Wednesday’s 25 basis points Fed hike but raised its repo rate to 5.625 percent, an increase of 0.25 percent. The Saudi riyal surged 100 ticks against the US dollar hitting day’s high of 3.7414, up around a quarter percent, after closing at 3.7503 on Wednesday
more...
Interesting!!!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Interesting indeed

King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia yesterday sacked the head of the country's financial market regulatory body, reported the AFP. Just a day after the market dipped to a 14 month low, Jammaz bin Abdullah Al Sihaimi, the Chairman of the Financial Market Commission Council, was removed by royal decree. Abdul Rahman bin Abdul Aziz Al Tuwaijiri has been named as the new head.



http://www.ameinfo.com/85746.html
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. Here;s a guess
Well, I guess the bunker buster nukes are a go for the first week in June.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Currencies are uncoupling faster than trailer homes at a trailor park...
...at 1:00 a.m. on the first of the month among the rent-challenged.

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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. Relentless U.S. dollar selling turns into rout
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=0de61f94e27d3c53

The dollar hit a new low of 1.2955 against the euro Friday, while the British pound touched 1.8998. The Swiss franc soared to 1.1965, while the Japanese yen traded as high as 109.32. The commodity currencies were litte changed from Thursday's close but in solid demand. The Canadian dollar reached 1.0991 while the Australian dollar firmed to .7782. The New Zealand dollar reached a modest high of .6325. At the close of trading in New York Friday the dollar was just shy of its lows for the day.

The relentless selling this week has come despite a quarter-point increase in the Fed funds rate to 5%, well ahead of European, Swiss,and Japanese interest rates. The Fed demonstrated an increasing concern over the extent of dollar-selling by signalling its regular monthly interest rate increases may not be over. Markets have been selling the dollar on the basis the Fed would soon pause, just as other countries plan to begin a round of interest rate increases

more...
Remember this is when the FED RAISED our interest rates!!!
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. U.S. import prices jump unexpectedly
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=cf070f17cc0405bf

U.S. import prices last month rose 2.1 percent, nearly double what had been expected, and export prices climbed for the fifth consecutive month.

The Labor Department said April's jump in import prices was led by the largest rise in petroleum prices in more than a year, an 11.5-percent increase. Petroleum prices have risen 32.5 percent over the past 12 months
more...
so WHAT IS OUR INFLATION RATE???
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
72. You mean the real inflation rate, not the phoney figures we are given.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. tax cuts are not making the money traders happy
they can`t get rid of dollars. but the whitehouse already has a solution for this problem-start a war with iran and cut more taxes.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
79. Some traders are very happy
Option traders don't care which way a market moves as long as it is a lot. There are some very happy option traders right now.

Plus the pure arbitrage guys like it too. Now who does not like it are international trading firms that hedged the wrong way or failed to hedge.

Traders like busy markets and this is one busy market.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. House of cards
Countries that abuse their fiat currencies eventually have to pay the piper....

Interestingly enough, one of the hallmarks of the collapse of the Roman empire was a systematic degradation and devaluation of its coinage, the Denari- so you'd expect to see that in a contraction of the American debt/finance economy.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. My GOD...Read what I wrote a few days ago...
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modrepub Donating Member (484 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
71. actually
The Romans found a way to get around this. The government collected taxes in gold solidi and made payments in copper. An ingenious system by which they collected revenues in "good" money and payed out in worthless currency. This would be like saying you must make payments to the government in old $10,000 bills but we'll pay you in $1 bills that are hot off the presses. People like Bill Gates could function quite well while the rest of us haul around wheelbarrows to find people willing to sell us their "good" currency.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. Here's the latest chatter from the FOREX forums

NOTE: Read from bottom to top to read chronologically



http://www.global-view.com/


GVI 02:00 GMT May 13, 2006
The US dollar takes a pounding over deficit (FT)

---

london kum 19:51 GMT May 12, 2006
hi, just wanna say what yen is gonna do in the next couple of weeks (months) will blow your heads off it’s all in the charts

---

Vienna GD 19:51 GMT May 12, 2006
Me thinks if 40.1x/2x goes for the QQQQ we are in for a really nasty drop ... black monday??? So far ppt is holding the line.

---

dc CB 18:53 GMT May 12, 2006
the Plunge team is out with their cattle prods trying to get the herd to move back over to the long side. if they fail, and after a weekend to think it over, it may be a very black and blue monday morning on the street of wall.

---

Vienna GD 18:12 GMT May 12, 2006
Syd 17:14 GMT May 12, 2006
Commodities Big fall??? ... Sys another warning sign: $HUI (pm stock index) down almost 6% so far, one of the biggest single day losses i remember.

---

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Crap-O-La! (n/t)
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Black Monday / Rove Indictment
Guess which story will be covered.

If the markets crash big on Monday, hold on to your ass.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yeah, and North Korea's newspaper has this same story...
http://story.northkoreatimes.com/p.x/ct/9/cid/3a8a80d6f705f8cc/id/9b6a1c22154c3bcf/

Their past the dateline, makes sense they'd put it out as well. I got them off of google news.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Bignews is from Australia also past dateline. Getting worried(n/t)
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. Notice how the falling dollar is barely mentioned in US news
You have to be looking for it to see any articles and it not mentioned on televised news. Heck even CNBC barely mentions the dollar problems.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yes Robbien this IS BIG NEWS and our newspapers are
hush hush over it!!!

That currency forum report is scary ... Black Monday is right!!!
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. If it didn't come from a WH press briefing, to the MSM it doesn't exist.
Is Reuters covering this?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I know you'd think the propagandists would have said something...
If people don't fucking wake up soon, there will be another Great Depression. Savings rate went negative last year, just like it did before the last Great Depression. I have known it has been coming, and I actually have a plan. I will post it in the General Discussion soon.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Please PM me with the link to your thread
in case I miss it before signing off tonight. Am interested in learning all alternative courses of action.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I'd appreciate a quick message pointing to your thread, also...
originalpckelly.

I'm most interested in taking a gander at your strategy proposal.

Thanks.

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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. So would I.
Thanks in advance.
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
77. Me too!
Do you know of any gold backed currencies that can be bought in an ETF?
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
74. Please send me one too, please ,please.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
82. That was a good thread, Orig (see post #12)
It was well-written, and I appreciated reading the posts below.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. New Article-14 Min. Ago: Gulf Times - Soaring Euro Faces Little Resistance
Soaring euro faces little resistance

Published: Saturday, 13 May, 2006, 09:31 AM Doha Time
The Gulf Times

LONDON: The euro, which is just a few cents away from its historic high against the dollar, is likely to face little resistance yet from the European Central Bank which has so far kept mum about the rising single currency.

In contrast to late 2004 when the euro was rising at a similar pace and ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet repeated the message “brutal moves were unwelcome”, euro zone monetary policymakers have largely maintained silence.

Analysts say the eurozone is better able to cope with a higher euro than in 2004 because economic growth is accelerating.


Well, we shouldn't be surprised at this. But the closed mouths of the EU Central Bank shows them to be playing it cool.

Iranian Oil Bourse goes live...is it Monday?
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. More Bangladesh News
http://independent-bangladesh.com/news/may/13/13052006bs.htm#A15

Sugar prices hit record high

AFP, LONDON

May 12: Sugar prices reached an all-time high on Thursday as oil futures rebounded higher, traders said. Sugar cane is used to produce ethanol, a cheaper alternative to motor fuel, or gasoline, which is refined from crude oil
*******************************************************************************************************

and

Japan sounds alarm on rapid yen rise

AFP, TOKYO

May 12: Japan's government voiced growing concern Friday at the recent rapid appreciation of the yen, with ministers warning it could undermine economic growth and corporate profits.

The remarks came after the yen hit a fresh eight-month high against the dollar, contributing to a sharp slide in Japanese shares which closed at a seven-week low with the main Nikkei-225 index down 1.54 per cent.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
87. Actually, isn't it the dollar falling, rather than the Euro rising?
Other industrialized countries' currencies are somewhat stable against one another, it seems.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
28. Gulf Hostility Towards UK and US - ME Moves to Gold
Edited on Sat May-13-06 02:18 AM by Dunvegan
UK Daily Reckoning
Hostility towards Britain and the US


...Hostility towards the US is growing daily...The West is losing friends fast...even the British...Something awful is afoot, says gold. So does the oil market...and the news from Dubai...

Adrian Ash
Fri 12 May, 2006

"The market's tanked this year," said a new friend by phone this morning. A regular visitor to the Middle East, he recently left the City to use his skills as an Arabist in setting up investment vehicles for wealthy Saudi, Kuwaiti and UAE clients.

All they want to buy is gold, he told us. Lots of gold. Any "fear" premium in last night's close above $720/oz could have much further to run, in other words. For Dubai is scared.

"I just got back from a 3-day trip," he went on. "Hostility towards the US is growing daily. Arab's rich used to send their children to college in the States, but now it's Canada and Australia...Many people I spoke to are thinking of boycotting US goods, because of the Iraqi mess and also the threats towards Iran. People blame both situations on America's support for Israel...Now they've had enough."

"The West is losing friends fast," he went on, "even the British. We used to be represented out there by respected Foreign Office types...the camel core who could speak Arabic and understood local culture and manners. But now we're sending plunderers and property sharks.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Good story, keep posting people, we need as much information on this as...
possible. For what little it is worth, good work.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. Bangladesh News
http://independent-bangladesh.com/news/may/13/13052006bs.htm#A15

Hong Kong gold closes at 26-year highs

AFP, HONG KONG

May 12: Hong Kong gold prices closed at 26-year highs Friday at 722.10-722.60 US dollars an ounce, up from Thursday's close of 708.20-708.70 dollars.

The market opened at 716.20-716.70 dollars. Overnight, gold hit a high of 726.70 dollars, a level last reached in January 1980.

The precious metal has rocketed by almost 40 per cent since the start of 2006 along with others such as silver and platinum which are supported by a weak US dollar, tensions over Iran and inflation fears prompted by high oil prices.

A weak US currency makes commodities priced in the US unit on world markets more attractive to buyers using other currencies.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
34. M3 Index ended
And interest rates went up...and we have no clue how much money we got and how bad inflation is..
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/US_Federal_Reserve_ceases_to_publish_M3_index

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/11_09_01_Derivatives.html
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Haven't been happy since the M3 went dark.
Methinks our Dear Leaders may have lead us into more darkness than just the M3.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. This cat is with you
I think this crazy speculation and selling shorts and futures are fucking up alot more in the financial arenas than we know now.The gambling addicts and sociopath thugs control too many things and they won't stop placing bets and stealing until they have Bankrupted America. They love cheap/free laborand the stuff of others..aka slaves,and that's what they want to do to us all.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. More
http://goldinfo.net/ronpaul1.html

Since gold has proven to be the real money of the ages, we see once again a shift in wealth from the West to the East, just as we saw a loss of our industrial base in the same direction. Though Treasury officials deny any U.S. sales or loans of our official gold holdings, no audits are permitted so no one can be certain.

The special nature of the dollar as the reserve currency of the world has allowed this game to last longer than it would have otherwise. But the fact that gold has gone from $252 per ounce to over $600 means there is concern about the future of the dollar. The higher the price for gold, the greater the concern for the dollar. Instead of dwelling on the dollar price of gold, we should be talking about the depreciation of the dollar. In 1934 a dollar was worth 1/20th of an ounce of gold; $20 bought an ounce of gold. Today a dollar is worth 1/600th of an ounce of gold, meaning it takes $600 to buy one ounce of gold.
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markam Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
90. The dollar is still overvalued
Average salary in 1900 was $450/year. Now it is $36,000/year. Assuming a constant value of gold (which in a stable financial system it would be constant), gold should now be about $1500/ounce. The recent runnup in gold prices is simply undoing a century of artificial inflation of the dollar.

I expect gold to go to around $1500/ounce once the dollar is dumped as defacto world currency. Using the same rational, silver should go to $90/ounce, making it a much better investment right now.

Of course, the collapse of the dollar, along with peak oil and global climate change may result in a complete collapse of civilization. Then, of course, the best metal to own will be lead (in your shotgun).
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
109. In most of 1934, the price of gold was $35.00/oz
Roosevelt upped the official price from $20.67 to $35.00 per ounce on January 31, 1934.

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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
35. bush compares himself to other presidents/leaders
we've seen the articles where bush has compared himself to other presidents and world leaders

is this the point where he compares himself to HOOVER?
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. He should compare himself to "Hoover." Seeing that we're in a...
...prosperity "vacuum."
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. This is what I'm afraid of ...

Well, not really afraid in the same way I am afraid of what is happening here. It's more of a "we're fucked no matter what we do" kind of fear.

See, Hoover didn't cause the Depression, not in any way, shape, or form. Hoover failed to fix it in any way, shape, or form and so is deserving of criticism on that score. But, what led to the Depression was a complex set of events that began long before Hoover was even considered for the office of President.

And what that means, to me, is this. Shrub, and more importantly his policies, won't get blamed for this. The next Congress, possibly a Democratic one, will get part of the blame, and the next President, possibly a Democratic one, will get the rest of it. And the cycle will continue, leading us further and further down this negative path because those who create the problem aren't associated with it and are then given yet another chance to worsen the problem.

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Do you really think the center will hold until the next election?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. I don't know ...

This is something with which most of us alive today have never had to contend. It's hard to know what may happen.

To be honest, I doubt it. I'm thinking more in a "what will history say" kind of way, which I know essentially means nothing practical to our present circumstances, but I can't help but think of it, my children, and my children's children.

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. They'll probably say, "Wow! You lived in interesting times!"
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #46
98. This could make or break the Democratic Party
RoyGBiv stated:
And what that means, to me, is this. Shrub, and more importantly his policies, won't get blamed for this. The next Congress, possibly a Democratic one, will get part of the blame, and the next President, possibly a Democratic one, will get the rest of it. And the cycle will continue, leading us further and further down this negative path because those who create the problem aren't associated with it and are then given yet another chance to worsen the problem.


It all depends on: a) Does this happen during the Shrub's reign of error? and 2) How well will the next Congress and next president handle the crisis? I think it's likely that the wheels will come off the bus late this year; before the election.

This creates opportunities for the Democratic party, if they can rise to the occasion. What's needed? We need to rebuild:
  1. America's manufacturing base,
  2. America's science, research & development capabilities
  3. Our transportation infrastructure, including mass transit


Put all of these problems and opportunities up against the fact that, millions of Amaericans have lost their high-paying, skilled jobs. Reframe that as: We have a lot of talent going to waste. In the 1930's, FDR created programs like the WPA to put people back to work. The WPA built roads, dams, parks. It also created jobs for artists, sculptors and musicians.

A modern WPA could put displaced engineers and IT workers back to work on the next generation of alternate energy from wind and solar. Maybe we could put the proposed "Apollo Project on Energy," under this umbrella.

We could also put put engineers, scientists and IT workers to work on the new science of Molecular Nanotechnology

Interestingly enough, I got some of the ideas seen on this page from a discussion at a Foresight Institute function a couple of years ago. The subject was: "How do we help people get through the transition to a nanotech economy?" One young lady mentioned FDR's WPA as a possibility.

Point is, what's coming is a "perfect storm" for the economy; what's going to emerge from that storm will not be the same world we've known. It could be great, with prosperity for everyone, or it could be a cyberpunk (or nanopunk) dystopia. What will make the difference is leadership.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #46
110. Hoover exacerbated the Depression
Edited on Tue May-16-06 02:15 AM by Art_from_Ark
by failing to take any action, or by taking the wrong action, such as signing the Hawley-Smoot tariff (which led to severe retaliatory measures by trading partners). The fact that he didn't seem to lift a finger to assist starving Americans, after having helped starving Russians a decade earlier, didn't do much to enamour him to the have-nots either. That is one of the main reasons why Hoover gets much of the blame for the Depression, at least by those who were there.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
36. If you haven't already, here's Mogambo's latest column.
http://worldnewstrust.org/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=3518

Seems he has an amusing (whistling in the graveyard) idea about why Cheney lost his non-existant cool and called Putin a blackmailer. Because we're in trouble, of course.

Cheney is a lousy poker player.

Other Mongamboesque revelations by the monkey-barrelfull. As usual. Enjoy. *sigh*
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
42. if it ends up being a Black 'n blue Monday
Edited on Sat May-13-06 03:13 AM by radfringe
and our economy takes a serious bruising... the cries for impeachment may get louder...

so much for the bush/gopers singing the praises of how great our economy is doing....

maybe I'm psychic... I did this cartoon up on Friday:

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
44. Wasting time and waiting for the next news pop...
Edited on Sat May-13-06 03:21 AM by Dunvegan
Theme to "Mr. Fed"

(With apologies...as if they care...to the "Mr. Ed" Show.
Hey, a girl's gotta have a way to pass the wee small hours.
And I misplaced my marbles. So I'll mangle old tunes.)

A bource is a bource, of course, of course,
And no one can balk the bource of course
That is, of course, unless the force is the blameless Mr. Fed.

Go right to the source and boss the bourse
They'll dare you to answer that you'll use force.
We're always on a stupid course.
Can't talk to Mr. Fed.

Traders yakkity yak their streaks and waste your trading day
But Mister Fed will never speak and explain the dark M3 away.

A bourse is a bourse, of course, of course,
And this one'll rise while our jobs outsource.
You never heard of a talking bourse?

Well listen to this. You blew it Mister Fed.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. Bwahahahahaaa!
It would be hilarious if it weren't so true!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
45. How the M3 relates to gold prices
The M3 has been not avaliable,the feds stopped publishing it in march..wonder what it has to do with these crazy gold prices? read on..



Since M3 data from 1948 onwards is available we can now look at the inflation of dollars (increase in M3) relative to the inflation of above ground gold (that is the total amount of gold ever mined). Because of its physical properties, essentially all gold ever mined is still around in some form or another, whether it is jewelry, coins, bars, or whatever. Gold inflation is therefore just annual mine production as a percentage of above ground gold.

Starting with a gold price of $35 an ounce in 1947 (last week’s column) it is now possible to calculate the theoretical gold price for every year since then. In 1971, for instance, when Nixon closed the Gold Window in a desperate attempt to retain some gold in the Treasury, the gold price should have been $103 an ounce. It is therefore no surprise that gold was being bought hand over fist at thirty five dollars an ounce, and that the gold price began to increase immediately after it was emancipated.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/vaneeden030204.html
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. I was EXTREMELY suspicious of that happening...
I can't remember where I heard it, but I ended up in Wikipedia and found this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
86. Remember Fort Knox?
It's empty. No, it hasn't been raided. The gold is gone. We sold it all off, I believe during the 1980's.

An economics professor shared this little secret with me as I was working on my master's in Econ. I was shocked. She just shrugged her shoulders and said, "so what? There's no value in gold. Now, look at trees in the US. Now there's some value".

I wonder if she still feels the same way.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
104. The Trees Were Shipped to Japan
Otherwise, she'd have a point.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #45
105. just as poppy bush was with his rich cronies on 9-11 making deals
about future events, poppy bush was in bed with Barrick Gold, look it up. These people aren't on random collision courses. They plan shit.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
47. Gold and the M3 index
What does the M3 index have to do with seeing the fluctuations in gold prices? Gold is tied to the value of the dollar...
Wonder why the feds may have stopped publishing the M3 this past March?
read more..


The broadest measure of money supply in the United States is M3 (what I prefer to use), except that M3 data doesn’t exists prior to 1959. The Reserve Bank of Minneapolis did a study that extrapolated M3 back to 1948, but that still leaves us with a fifteen-year gap from 1933 to 1948. Which is why I used CPI data to calculate the gold price from 1933 to 1947.

Since M3 data from 1948 onwards is available we can now look at the inflation of dollars (increase in M3) relative to the inflation of above ground gold (that is the total amount of gold ever mined). Because of its physical properties, essentially all gold ever mined is still around in some form or another, whether it is jewelry, coins, bars, or whatever. Gold inflation is therefore just annual mine production as a percentage of above ground gold.

Starting with a gold price of $35 an ounce in 1947 (last week’s column) it is now possible to calculate the theoretical gold price for every year since then. In 1971, for instance, when Nixon closed the Gold Window in a desperate attempt to retain some gold in the Treasury, the gold price should have been $103 an ounce. It is therefore no surprise that gold was being bought hand over fist at thirty five dollars an ounce, and that the gold price began to increase immediately after it was emancipated.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/vaneeden030204.html
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
51. The Forex Forum guys are mulling since the US is selling dollars...
...what in absymal heck is the the US buying with those dollars?

Any guesses?
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
55. Markets Continue to Nose Dive (Washington Post)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201514.html

Wall Streeters, who only a couple days ago were talking about how soon the market would hit an all-time high, suddenly now are worried about when the market will hit bottom.

Although few facts have changed, traders almost overnight have turned cautious, latching onto negative information as aggressively as they were grabbing hold of good news.

MORE AT LINK
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Ouch. Has anyone else noticed the palpable inflation?
Everything is costing more. Darned suddenly. Betwixt gas/transportation increases...raw commodity increases...importing darned near 1/2 of everything...and the funny money...well, I don't see that coming down now that it's started finally taking off.

Or, am I just shopping at all the wrong places?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
57. Well...isn't that lovely? What else can the NeoCons do for us?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
58. HOLY CRAP THE FREEPERS ARE PESSIMISTIC...
Their thread is here, called "US Dollar Take a Pounding over Deficit"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1631558/posts

You know some shit is going down when the kool-aid drinkers perk up.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Yep, Freepers ALWAYS perk up over gloom und doom...
...they are relationally orgasmic depending on the proximity of Armageddon.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
59. Reuters,SA-10 min. ago: Oil falls on worries demand could flag

Oil falls on worries demand could flag
Sat May 13, 2006 10:23 AM GMT
Reuters - South Africa

By Richard Valdmanis

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Oil fell more than a dollar on Friday after two widely watched reports signaled that soaring energy costs were buckling consumer confidence and curbing global fuel consumption.

{snip}

Meanwhile, the University of Michigan's closely watched sentiment survey slumped to 79.0 in May from April's final 87.4, far below the median Wall Street forecast for a reading of 86.1 -- stirring worries that Americans may curb discretionary spending in the face of $3 gasoline.

"If sentiment stays at this level -- it might even decline further -- you should expect a serious slowing in second quarter and third quarter consumption," said Ian Shepherdson, chief U.S. economist with High Frequency Economics.

Some analysts added that growing U.S. inventories were also weighing on prices. The U.S. government reported on Wednesday that gasoline stockpiles jumped more than expected due in part to a surge in imports and an increase in refinery activity.

{More at Link...}



This article mentions the impact of Nigerian crude on the market...however this article doesn't seem to mention the explosion at all...just the effects of the hostage taking of the other day.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. It was a gas line explosion--not a terrorist related oil explosion. The
victims were poor country people, trying to make a few bucks selling gas (already re-imported).


...This article mentions the impact of Nigerian crude on the market...however this article doesn't seem to mention the explosion at all...just the effects of the hostage taking of the other day.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #64
80. Explosion was in a domestic gasoline line
Nothing to do with exports and has no effect on the international market.

They do this all the time in Nigeria. Go the Nexus/Lexus and get all the previous explosions of this sort and then compare it to the price of oil on international markets in the days and weeks following the explosions. You will see there is no connection.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Yes, Nigeria exports their crude and imports refined gas
So this disruption will hurt the Nigerian gas supply, not the world's oil supply.

Once again Nigeria is on the losing end.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. Yes, it was probably simple vandalism. I mentioned the explosion only...
Edited on Sat May-13-06 11:59 AM by Dunvegan
...because it wasn't mentioned in the article, and the possible short-term effect on distribution.

Just wondering what further impact on oil we'd get once we had an update from after the accident.

Sorry, since the issue is volatile, I probably should have specifically noted the Nigerian explosion was an unknown but non-terrorist situation. Thanks.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/13/content_4542926.htm
"The explosion started at dawn as people scrambled for fuel gushing out from vandalized pipes, an occurrence which has become very common in Lagos area in recent times."
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
61. CNN International: Europe's massive 2% single day loss...Dollar Sliding
Edited on Sat May-13-06 03:52 AM by originalpckelly


European shares experienced their biggest one-day percentage fall in nearly two years on Friday, pounded by fresh inflation and interest rate fears, while mining and car shares dived as a weakened dollar hit the region's exporters.

*snip*

Sliding dollar

Maillot also said that European exporters could accommodate much more strengthening of the euro before exchange rates really start taking a toll on their balance sheet.

But for now, investors rushed out of stocks such as German auto makers BMW, Porsche, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, which all slipped over 3 percent as traders worried that the weak dollar would hit U.S. consumers' lust for imported goods.


http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/05/12/europe.stocks.reut/index.html
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. ~~and Jill came tumbling after~~
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
62. Thought: Weekend Watch for Russia or China and If They Open Markets
Edited on Sat May-13-06 03:59 AM by Dunvegan
Haven't heard anything...but they've done this before.

And with Cheney in Putin's face...along with rumors that Blivet may not attend the St. Petersburg G8 and embarrass the Russians...it's a fleeting thought.

They've done it before: Opened their currency markets on the weekend, and dumped tons of USD on the market. We've always strong-armed some poor 98 lb. weakling country or two to buy up dollars when this has happened before.

We barely covered our bikini waxes last time.

We may not under the present circumstances.

That was so clever of Cheney to front off Putin...what with the Iranian Bourse going live this week.

Unless...they know that Iran isn't evah going to get to open that bourse.

I keed...I keed.

I hope....
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
63. Cheery Lads, These: "Gold to hit $1,000 mark; Oil $100" - 4 hr. ago
And just who are these joyful optimists?


Gold to hit $1,000 mark; Oil likely to strike $100
BY HASEEB HAIDER

13 May 2006
Khaleej Times Online


ABU DHABI — The gold will continue to glitter by year-end, as its prices are likely to hit $1,000 per ounce from $704 level, while prices of black gold — Oil — will touch $100 per barrel even if the current Iran stand-off is resolved, claimed Mehmood Suliman-Rey, Division Head MENA & Asia of Switzerland's, Liechtensteinische Landes Bank (LLB).

"While commodity strategists were cautious in price projections for gold and oil, LLB stood-out with a right forecast since past one-year... the price behaviour is even better than what we had indicated," Mehmood told Khaleej Times yesterday. He said that silver will hit $25-26 per ounce by year-end.

Speaking about reasons for the current price scenario which can undermine global economic growth, he said oil demand is slowing in China against all predictions, however, the economies of China and India will continue leading other comparatively smaller Asian economies and oil would be the fuel they will need to grow. On the other hand, with middle class growing, and purchasing parities increasing, gold will continue to be ideal commodity in those economies.

Mehmood said that during the last one year, gold prices have gone up by 65 per cent, silver up 106.24 per cent, aluminium prices climbed up 68 per cent, while copper rose by 177 per cent, as per the forecast. Commenting on the heavy fluctuations on the domestic securities markets, he advised caution to the investors with large exposure to shares and securities.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
65. AP Inflation Fear Takes Shares Down Again
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/business/13markets.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

May 13, 2006
Inflation Fear Takes Shares Down Again
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Stocks endured a second day of steep losses yesterday as the dollar weakened and bond prices fell after data showing higher import prices fueled the market's inflation worries. The major indexes declined sharply for the week.

A rebound in prices for imported goods further rattled investors already worried about interest rates. Although import prices were flat excluding oil, that did little to soothe concerns about energy costs lifting prices elsewhere.

Plunging consumer confidence also reinforced beliefs that high gasoline prices at the pumps could choke consumer spending. Wall Street, meanwhile, weighed the importance of an unexpected decline in the trade deficit and cooling oil prices.

Yesterday's decline in equity markets built on steep losses the previous day, when surging commodities prices compounded anxiety that the Federal Reserve could continue its two-year streak of interest rate increases. And next week's reports on wholesale and consumer prices could prove troublesome for the inflation picture.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. "consumer sentiment index for May plummeted 8.4 points,"


The Commerce Department said the trade deficit narrowed by $3.6 billion, to $62 billion; economists had predicted a $1.4 billion increase.

The University of Michigan's consumer sentiment index for May plummeted 8.4 points, to 79. Economists were looking for the index to drop just 1.4 points, to 86.

Expedia plunged $5.15, or 26 percent, to $14.51, after its first-quarter profit declined and fell far short of Wall Street expectations. Expedia said higher costs outpaced a modest jump in revenue.

The electronics retailer Best Buy is paying $180 million to acquire a majority stake in Jiangsu Five Star Appliance, an appliance and electronics seller in China. Best Buy tumbled $1.22, to $52.60.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. "tumbled' seems to be the key word.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
68. Fucking incompetent, corrupt republicans are destroying America. n/t
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Make that HAVE destroyed Ameruca n/t
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Only if you live in the view of their worthless piece of shit world
Shiva or whatever kind of god(s) you have often comes to call at that most opportune of times. To many billions of people it might just be good news in different ways
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
75. When America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold
What do you think will happen when we come down with pneumonia? The Rove indictment will have a devastating affect on markets both here and abroad.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. The Dollar is simply based upon confidence in the US government...
You right, what happens when people are no longer confident in the government.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
91. There you have it !
The rise of gold price is simply a world wide condemnation of the Bush administration.

Once American people getting rid of Bush, the dollar will go back up again because dollar is backed by world's faith in the US government.

There is little faith in it at this stage of the game.

2006 democrats Congress and Bush impeachment are the only bets we can save the US dollar, temporarily.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #91
106. I totally agree with you, ckramer!
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
83. Thanks Loviuan
for posting this. Also thanks to everyone who posted on the thread.

This is the reason why I will never leave the DU: we are always 10 steps ahead of everyone else in terms of information. We know the scoop, long before it hits the general population.

And at some point, that could mean financial survival, or even physical survival.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
85. what is the value of the Euro vs. dollar today?
Anyone know? I've got some family heading to Eastern Europe next month and they are worrying today.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Here
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
89. Wonder what currency the BFEE and the ultra rich have invested in
because you know it ain't the dollar.

What a novel way to finally kill off the middle and lower classes. Destroy the country's currency while investing in yens, euros, and yuans.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #89
107. google Poppy Bush and Barrick Gold and you will see ...
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
92. What happened to mining stocks Friday?
Edited on Sat May-13-06 09:21 PM by teryang
Were the big investment houses short selling? Or did they think gold, silver, and other mining stocks had hit a technical peak. Mining stocks dive while spot markets soar? Monday may be interesting indeed. I'll be looking for some buying opportunities in gold and other mining cos. Also in Canadian oil sands stocks.
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. The US dollar takes a pounding over deficit (Financial Times)
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/6fb3c8c4-e1e6-11da-bf4c-0000779e2340.html

By Steve Johnson in London and John Authers in New York
Published: May 12 2006 19:54 | Last updated: May 13 2006 00:18

The US dollar suffered a severe sell-off on Friday, taking it to its weakest level against a trade-weighted basket of currencies since October 1997, in a tumble that helped to trigger falls across world equity markets.

Worries about US inflation, which have intensified since the US Federal Reserve’s rate-setting open market committee met on Wednesday, sparked further sharp losses for US stock markets. The Nasdaq Composite fell a further 1.3 per cent after a 2 per cent fall on Thursday, while the Russell 2000 index of smaller companies was down more than 5 per cent for the week.

US government bonds also suffered, bringing the yield on the benchmark 10-year bond to its highest level in four years.

The dollar has lost 7 per cent against the euro, yen and sterling since the start of April – a slide that will in turn intensify worries about inflation in the economy. Traders are concerned about the role a weaker dollar will have in correcting the US current account deficit, which is now about 7 per cent of GDP.

MORE AT LINK
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. I'm getting out...
I posted this over on the other forum, but this is the active one...
I have been reading this thread and others on the economy...
I have been thinking that I should sell off my stocks?
My husbands 401 is tied to them, and we buy small amounts of
them...just playing really, but I don't want to lose my money.
Soooo what's going to happen tomorrow?
I could put in a sell order and have it go 1st thing tomorrow
am, hopefully before any shyte hits the fan...
??
Thanks for any help/advice
Buttercup

I sold them all...I was tired of them anyway...they made a good little profit
But
I just got an email from a friend all about Black Monday of 87...
I don't need any more hints...
I have stocks in gold and copper mining...I'll sit on those...
Thanks a bunch
Buttercup

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
108. Keep the mineral stocks.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
96. Meanwhile, from the heart of the "Fear Economy", all is well (WashPost)
Washington Post, wich recently crowed that DC was living in an impenetrable economic bubble caused by fear of terrorism and the adjacent massive increase in employment among Federal contractors and developers, chiefly in the defense and services (read: media) sector, has this to say:

An Enthusiasm Grounded In Fundamentals

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/13/AR2006051300196.html

By Terence O'Hara and Brooke A. Masters
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, May 14, 2006; Page F01

New market high points inevitably are when many would-be investors begin to fret that everyone is getting rich but them, but the time is already past to make big money in the markets.

With the Dow Jones industrials and other major market indexes flirting with historic highs, is this one of those times?

A variety of investment professionals and strategists don't think so. Each expressed the belief that the U.S. equity market's steady, slow climb back from the 2002-03 trough has been driven by bedrock, fundamental strengths in the economy, not speculation. They also say there's very little reason to believe we are at a peak, with a diverse mix of inexorable demographic and economic forces, both here and
abroad, pointing to sustainable underlying business performance.

In short, while short-term profits in the stock market are never assured and are dodgy to predict, the long-term chances of building wealth are pretty good, even if you start investing now.

Yet even in the short term, analysts say there are many good reasons to be optimistic about the stock market and the economic cycle in the next year or two.

Graphic: (someone Photobucket this, please!!)

media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/05/14
/GR2006051400070.jpg

(Image caption:

GLOBAL STRIDES.
The Shenzhen Stock Exchange in China. Booming
foreign economies have expanded opportunities
for US corporations and investors.

PRODUCTIVITY AT HOME.

A worker at Abrasive Technologies in Lewis Center,
Ohio. Rising productivity has also been a boon to
US firms' bottom lines.)

Less than 24 hours EARLIER, the Post wrote:

Markets Continue to Nose-Dive

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201514.html
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. mmmmmm
Stock Market Crash of 1987 - Stock Market Crash of 1987 - Stock Market Crash of 1987

BLACK MONDAY
CAUSES and EFFECTS
Stock Market Crash of 1987 - Stock Market Crash of 1987 - Stock Market Crash of 1987


On Monday, October 19, 1987, the Dow Jones Industrial Average fell 508.32 and closed at a record-breaking low of 1,738.40 points (Arbel & Kaff, pg 61). This date, now known to the world as Black Monday is documented as the worst stock market crash in history. The 22.9% loss in 1987 almost doubles the percentage lost in the Crash of 1929, which was 12.82% (Arbel & Kaff, pg 61). Many stock market analysts believe that the crash was set off by a number of events, that include the poor choices of portfolio insurance professionals and program trading. One of the results of the crash was the creation of circuit breakers, which are techniques that restrict trading times in the market when market value is very high and unstable (The Economist, pg. 78). Communication between stock market regulators and investors has increased along with the access of the market to its investors.





More than one factor affected the Stock Market Crash of 1987. Economists agree that there are many reasons for the 508 point loss on October 19,1987, but not one can name a single event that ushered in the fated Black Monday. In the summer of 1987 the yield of a 30-year U.S. bond increased to almost 10 percent. Because of this investors began to shift from investing in stocks to putting their money into bonds which yielded more money (http://www.cnnfn.com...).

Portfolio Insurance

The poor choices of portfolio insurance professionals also resulted in the crash. A portfolio is a collection of stocks. Portfolio insurance, a form of investment, is the guarding of other stock investments against losses (Arbel & Kaff, pg 115) This is regarded as a highly risky way of investing in the stock market because these portfolio insurance professionals rely on their intuition instead of the reliable information. These risky investors sell their stocks at a high price when they think the market is declining and their stocks are losing value. But when they feel that the market will increase again, they buy back their stocks at a lower value and use the profit made by the purchase to make up for the monetary losses within the portfolio (http://www.cnnfn.com...). This type of massive selling caused the value of the stocks used to decrease below their true value and because of the low value the process would be repeated (Sobel, pg.441).

Many people see this as carelessness in the handling of stocks. They claim that too many people today see stocks as a means to quick profit instead of as long-term investment. They do not realize that a stock represents ownership in a part of a corporation. This corporation makes new products and develops marketing programs and decides on the employment of thousands of people who care for their families (Arbel & Kaff, pg 3).

Program Trading
Program trading was also a cause of the crash of 1987. This is when the prices of a stock fall below a preset price, and a programmed computer automatically sells that stock. Within one second, a computer would finalize 60 transactions (Arbel & Kaff, pg 5). These computers were handling billions of dollars per second. The market was being controlled more by computers and set prices than by investors who made careful deals. The rises and falls of the stock market echoed the sounds of the computers programmed buying and selling stocks, rather than a dependence on sound judgements made by investors.

Because of the installation of these computers, young men and women lost their jobs (Sobel, pg 442). When technology starts to replace man, an apocalypse will occur. And it did on October 19, 1987. Although program trading was used by some companies which had many clients with large funds, in 1987, program trading was not well known by investors (Sobel. pg 442). Because of the mystery behind program trading many people have blamed it for the crash (Arbel & Kaff, pg 115). Many corporations and organizations used program trading with their clients investments. Millions of shares were carelessly bought and sold during the course two minutes. Many of the clients were not aware of these actions. (Sobel, pg 442).

Some argue that blaming of the crisis in 1987 on program trading is like condemning the deliverer of bad news. Yet it also seems that the crash disabled markets so terribly that normal trading procedures did not even work. Stock quotes were changing so quickly on Black Monday that program trading could not have occured because the market information needed to make transactions was continuously being updated. Computer screens blacked out because of the surplus of information. Billions of transactions were flowing into computers which were not designed to carry so many (Arbel & Kaff, pg 116). Most analysts blame the crash on program trading, but it is clear that the overload of program trading was a result of the poor choices of the portfolio insurers. These choices were driven by the greed for money and the desire to reap as much of it as possible, even if that means sacrificing the financial future of the country.






The effects of the Crash of 1987 were not as devastating as expected. No depression, big or small resulted from it, and, in retrospect, is actually seen as a “marvelous buying opportunity”. In the following decade, interest rates declined, and investors displayed a renwed trust in the market. (The Economist, pg 13). Investors returned to the market as it made a comeback and began to rise. (http://www.detnew.com...). But this renewed trust was also bolstered by some precautionary procedures that were implemented after the crash.

Circuit Breakers and Limits
Circuit breakers were put into place in 1988 in order to keep any future market drops from transforming into panics. They were controversial at the time of their installation and have remained so. Many critics of the circuit breakers believe that instead of making share prices less volatile, they increased them instead (The Economist, pg. 78). There are three stages in the establishment of the circuit breaker device. The first two stages are sometimes referred to as collars (http://www.detnews.com...). The first step is described as the least obstructive. The plan in this step limits computer program trading from sending orders to the New York Stock Exchange if the Dow has risen or fallen more than 50-points from the earlier day’s close (http://www.detnews.com...). Upon the placement of the circuit breakers, a 50-point change was tantamount to a 2% modification in the Dow. But with the Dow presently approaching 8000, a 50-point change is miniscule. Because of this fact, the first step is used more frequently (The Economist, pg. 78). In the second stage of the circuit breaker plan, program trading is postponed for 5 minutes if the Dow loses 96 points and the Standard & Poor’s 500 stock-index drops by more than 12 points (The Economist, pg. 78). This stage restricts traders using computer programs to make large orders. These investors abuse the price differences between particular exchanges. Some blame their pejorative manipulation of the market to be the cause of the crash (The Economist, pg. 78). The third circuit breaker phase was designed to sever trading in all U.S. major exchanges for an hour if the Dow fell 250 points in a day. The tradings would then continue after the hour had expired, but if the Dow continued to fall 150 points after tradings continued, the market would then close for two more hours. These regulations have been modified so that a 350-point fall would spur a thirty minute stop in trading and another 200-point fall would evoke a one hour suspension of the market (The Economist, pg. 78).

The circuit breakers were installed primarily to prevent extreme changes in the stock market. Their usefulness is often in doubt because in order to prevent extreme shifts in the market the causes of values change must be revealed. There are several suggestions as to what can cause these changes. A primary cause is the fundamental changes in the economy, including the availability of money or the changes in interest rates. Here restrictions on trading are detrimental because they can decrease the effectiveness of the pricing in the stock market (The Economist, pg. 78). The advocates of circuit breakers insist that periods of suspension of the market will allow time for the investors to consider what their next move will be and how to overcome this large price move (The Economist, pg. 78). Yet, that investors will sit and contemplate the reasoning behind the drop in points is unlikely. Most are apt to become nervous and anxious as they consider what the market will do when it resumes.

Lawrence Harris, an economist at the University of Southern California, has sought to determine if circuit breaker restrictions have made a difference in the market. His results have found that the average daily volatility of share prices has decreased since the introduction of circuit breakers. But Harris believes that this does not verify the beneficial aspects of circuit breakers. Harris attributes the lower daily votality of share prices to the skepticism of investors and the high inflation rate in the U.S. When the differences of inflation are revised, Harris found that the votality before and after the placement of the circuit breakers are very closely related. In fact, votality has increased and is now greater than before their installation (The Economist, pg. 78). The stock market has not experienced any extreme changes in prices which may suggest that circuit breakers have made a difference, but that fact could also mean that the circuit breakers have yet to be fully tested. Harris acknowledges that these restrictions have had a small effect in the Dow, but he concludes that circuit breakers have not had an obvious effect that can be easily distinguished (The Economist, pg. 78).

The Economist's writers believe whether circuit breakers made a difference or not is not the point. The magazine's analysts understand that after the crash of 1987, federal regulators were pressured to prevent any sort of crash again. But no one knows the best way to prevent a crash from occurring. In order to design “preventive measures” that would “protect” the market from dangerous declines, the regulators imposed the circuit breakers that would act as weak restraints and would probably do no harm (The Economist, pg 78).

The Economist's writers seem to believe that the circuit breakers have little to do with the stock market but demonstrate more about the use of regulation. Because of the very weak restraints provided by these circuit breakers, it does seem that their purpose is to cover the backs of the stock market regulators. If they did nothing to try to prevent another crash, the public would not regard them very highly. If nothing was done after the crash, the public would distrust the market and its high volatility. Because of this distrust, investors would be reluctant to put their money in the market and might instead invest it in the bank where interest rates would climb and the market would decline.

Increased Access
After the crash, communication between regulators and markets improved. The chairmen of the Federal Reserve Board, the Securities and Exchanges Commission, the Commodity Futures Commission and the Treasury Department have met constantly in order to avert another crash. Regulators and major markets have also increased their communication with each other through a “squawk box,” which is a line that is kept open at all times to connect members of working groups to the floors of the exchanges. This “squawk box” is supposed to keep the developments in all markets accessible to everyone.

Manuals have been made which list procedures that should be taken if the market should decline. Some procedures are dependent upon the degree of the decline. Home phone numbers of all important people that are needed in case of a market decline are also posted in the manual. One of the most frustrating aspects of Black Monday for the fund investors was the inablility to call in in order to check their stock prices, or even trade, for that matter. In many large corporations a phone system that was designed to control up to 2,500 calls a day was deluged with more than two times that amount in the days after Black Monday. Shareholders and investors were put on hold for more than an hour. Many hung up. Because of the overflowing number of calls, many companies have additional trained crash teams to handle the calls in case of another crash. Touch-tone order systems were also added to help stock investors check their prices. In many cases, even computer access to stock quotes can create a jam. E* Trade, an online investing company in Palo Alto, California, was overflowing with so many clients that the computer could not pull up their accounts for 2 1/2 hours. Because of incidents like this, many companies have tripled their phone system capacity. (Brindley, pg 59).

Unlike the untested circuit breakers, these regulations seem to do more to avoid another crash and maximize the access of investors to check prices and trade. Because of these new developments, the market can run more smoothly, with an emergency plan in place in case of a major decline. The presence of these plans and developments assure the investors that their money will be safe and a crash will be avoided at all costs. Although some may claim that these rules can be seen only as limits that are just there to cover the backs of the federal regulators (like the circuit breakers), the time, effort and money put into the installation of them seems to argue otherwise.



On October 19,1987, when the Dow Jones Industrial average took a 508.32 dive, the country was unsure of its financial security and future. Chaos ran through citizens’ minds, as the media announced the 22.9 percent loss the stock market had sustained. People acted desperately, some even killed themselves. But although the stock market crash of 1987 was the biggest loss this country has ever recorded, no recession or depression occured. The media, as it is supposed to do, reported the incident to the country. But many journalists may have magnified the problem by exaggerating the event. Many economists and stock market analysts have studied and poured over data from the crash trying valiantly to discover what caused the crash and how to prevent it from happening again. Yet, every stock market analyst and every economist knows that the causes of a crash are is unknown. They do know that one factor alone does not cause a crash. There are so many variables contributing to a collapse in the market that it is impossible to cover all of the bases. There will always be something left unprepared or unthought. The circuit breakers that have yet to be used placed after Black Monday are more of a security blanket, instead of a real preventive provision that could stop a crash from happening. The circuit breakers will only buy time, and that is all. It seems evident that a crash cannot be hindered by a few hours. Another crash is inevitable. All the federal regulators can do is prepare for a crash, not prevent one.




Edustock --This link acts as guide to the stock market, explaining how a stock market works, and how to choose a stock to invest in. It even has a glossary!!
Stock Quotes --Get your most up-to-date stock quotes.

(The stock quotes in the graph above are from The Virginian Pilot Newspaper, Business Page on 1/21/98)
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Tin foil hat....
We need to ask ourselves who would profit from such a fall.

Gold minds?
Oil?
Military?

And look who was in power then and is in power now.
How convenient.

When will enough be enough?
When will Americans see Poppy for the Satan he is?
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
100. This is scary folks!........Hang on to your hat!
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