LAT: Threat Seen From Antibacterial Soap Chemicals

[DeepModem Mom]

Threat Seen From Antibacterial Soap Chemicals
The compounds end up in sewage sludge that is spread on farm fields across the country.
By Marla Cone, Times Staff Writer
May 10, 2006

Tons of chemicals in antibacterial soaps used in the bathrooms and kitchens of virtually every home are being released into the environment, yet no government agency is monitoring or regulating them in water supplies or food.

About 75% of a potent bacteria-killing chemical that people flush down their drains survives treatment at sewage plants, and most of that ends up in sludge spread on farm fields, according to Johns Hopkins University research. Every year, it says, an estimated 200 tons of two compounds — triclocarban and triclosan — are applied to agricultural lands nationwide.

The findings, in a study published last week in Environmental Science & Technology, add to the growing concerns of many scientists that the Environmental Protection Agency needs to address thousands of pharmaceuticals and consumer product chemicals that wind up in the environment when they are flushed into sewers.

From dishwashing soaps to cutting boards, about 1,500 new antibacterial consumer products containing the two chemicals have been introduced into the marketplace since 2000. Some experts worry that widespread use of such products may be helping turn some dangerous germs into "superbugs" resistant to antibiotics....

***

Toxicological tests have shown that the chemicals seem safe for human exposure, even in the high doses applied to skin. However, in water, triclosan can react with chlorine and turn into chloroform and dioxins linked to cancer. The chemicals also might kill microbes beneficial to ecosystems or promote new pathogens that resist antibiotics....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-antibacterial10may10,0,3219699.story?coll=la-home-nation

[megatherium]

1. Are antibacterial soaps more harmful than their benefits?

If we were to ban their use because of these apparently hypothetical (unproven) hazards, would we subject the public to an increased risk of food poisoning or infections from bacteria?

I'm a little skeptical that these products are "promoting new pathogens that resist antibiotics." Perhaps they are promoting pathogens that resist antiseptics, but not antibiotics (I'm assuming that antibiotics kill bacteria using different mechanisms than these chemicals). The real cause of antibiotic-resistant bacteria is probably farmers who feed their livestock tons of antibiotics to fend off the infections common in concentrated animal feeding operations. And I imagine it's good that people who wish to eat meat have access to antibacterial cleaners, to protect themselves from these antibiotic-resistant bacteria in their own kitchens.

[Sequoia]

2. I try not to buy any anti-bacterial products but it sure is getting

hard not to find anything but. Really? Who needs anti-bacterial soap for the dishes? For that grimy kitchen-counter top?

[acmavm]

4. Americans do. They need Hummers, they need the biggest,

the best, and the most powerful of EVERYTHING dammit.

[arikara]

12. I've been making my own soap for years

All my family loves it, as well as many of my friends. That antibacterial stuff is toxic, it causes allergic reactions and skin rashes that don't heal for many people, me included.

I use herbal products such as neem and tea tree oil for any disinfecting necessary, and have recently started making colloidal silver which is excellent for protecting agains bacteria and viruses.

[enlightenment]

14. Try this -- a little more pricey, perhaps, but it's a great

product line; environmentally friendly and WOW does it smell good!

http://www.mrsmeyers.com/

[xxqqqzme]

16. I do not buy anti-bacteial soaps for anything in the house

hands, dishes or floors. This anti-bacteial crap is obsessive/compulsive behavior crammed down our throats. I raised my kids on a farm w/o anti-bacterial anything. I wold guess their immune systems are stronger because of it.

[gristy]

30. damn right

I can't remember now where I was reading this, but it was an article that said our youth should grow up with a cow in the house. To stimulate our immune systems.

[truedelphi]

10. So just what are their benefits??

Unless you are health care worker, I do not see what benefits
these possess. Germs are everywhere - encountering them is part of life.

There is evidence that these anti microbe soaps affect your immune system - so you pay a steep price. You don't encouter a single germ on your coffe mug, but now your immunity may be impaired.
Also the chemicals in these soaps are almost impossible to wash off.

I have worked in a residential household with the developmentally disabled.

Whenever I choose a pot or pan to cook dinner in, I can rinse it for a full ten minutes before the soapy residue finally comes off.

Why would anyone disinfect a pot or pan to begin with?
Germs are killed by intense heat - if you are saturating your pots and pans with this stuff, you need to think twice.

Health care workers (who do need to remove some of the germs from some of the sicker patients among them) are getting weird cancers in higher and higher numbers. Google
"occupational risks" and you will see it is not the lumberjacks and the miners but the nurses and nursing assistants that are suffering.

Over the last decade, health care workers are exposed to these weird triclosans in the anti microbe soaps, also to the lysols and the phenols of air disinfectants.

[Solon]

13. You are right and wrong...

First, I don't know the actual process for as to how anti-bacterial soap works, its not bleach or some other harsh chemical like that, its possible that it is anti-body based, which would be bad news. However, I don't know too much about that itself, so I won't comment on it.

However, I can explain part of the reason for Antibiotics resistant diseases popping up. Its a combination, and you touched on ONE relatively small(as of now) part of it. There are two others, the first is the overprescribing of anti-biotics for viral diseases, understand the significance here, antibiotics kill bacteria, not viruses, they do NOT cure the common cold, and yet they were routinely prescribed for it, usually under the banner of being a preventative of sorts against the flu. This is stupid on its face, vaccines should be used as preventative, NOT anti-biotics. So this lead to overexposure of antibiotics to bacteria, think of this as "reverse" vaccination, the bacteria adapted to the anti-bodies in the antibiotic and now it is no longer effective. Pretty simple when you think about it.

The second thing is this, patients themselves have a pretty flippant attitude to prescriptions, the directions for anti-biotics are there for a very simple reason, so that you do NOT give bacteria the opportunity to adapt to the medicine. People routinely will take these medicines only till they feel better, not when ALL the bacteria have been either eradicated or weakened enough for our own immune systems to take care of them, so what happens? They spread, and spread like wildfire, especially in hospitals, supposedly the most steril of enviroments, but not necessarily.

One thing people seem to forget is that bacteria are LIVING things and therefore adapt to survive, its called evolution. They face some threat for eradication, and, given a chance, they will find a way to survive and thrive. In odd cases, we are able to act quickly and outpace these adaptations and other adaptations, hence why Smallpox is but a bad memory now, even though some hawks in the US and USSR thought it was a good idea to keep some samples on ice. Dumbasses.

[Duncan]

28. It is not hypothetical

Antibacterial products definatly lead to resistant bacteria weather they are used in factory farms or in hand lotions.
There is nothing hypothetical about it, its simply how the rapid evolution of bacteria works. There is also evidence that excessive use of antibacterial products impairs immune system response to bacteria by reducing exposure to bacteria. Sorry I don't have references for you but a little googling should help, beware of "science" from chemical corporations that make the stuff though.

[redqueen]

38. Thank you!

As you said, there's nothing hypothetical about it.

:yourock:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Unless you've touched something really septic, soap and water are

sufficient.

I like liquid hand soap, but I haven't bought any anti-bacterial varieties since I found out about resisitant bugs.

I do take anti-bacterial hand gel on trips to Asia, though, because the rest rooms don't always have soap. Ingesting microbes from an unfamiliar country is more hazardous than ingesting the ones from your home area.

[jillan]

3. I heard about this months ago

Glad the story is still getting out there.

They say washing your hands thoroughly with any soap under hot water is just as effective as using anti-bacterial soap.

[Fierce]

5. I shun antibacterial products.

They're unnecessary.

[FiveGoodMen]

7. Same here.

[0007]

11. I will from now on!

[truthisfreedom]

6. sludge spread on farm fields? eww. i didn't even want to know what they

do with the byproducts of sewage treatment plants.

eww eww ewww.

[Kailassa]

29. on this big space-ship we're on, everything gets recycled eventually,

even you and me.

:toast:

[Retrograde]

46. there's a sizable business in bull and chicken shit

a.k.a. steer manure and poultry manure, for use in home gardens. I think the stuff sold in garden centers is sterilized somehow, but the old way was to pile it up until it stopped steaming and then spread it on the fields. The same was done with human manure, a.k.a. night soil, in many areas: in small amounts it's not especially dangerous, but in crowded areas there's a significant chance of spreading various diseases.

Treated sludge from municipal sewage has been used for decades. How safe it is depends on what's in it (effluvia from factories can be bad) and how it's treated (e.g., was it sterilized). It's got to go someplace.

BTW, tomato seeds are notorious for surviving the simpler treatment processes.

[conflictgirl]

47. There's an EXCELLENT book about that

It's called Fateful Harvest: The True Story of a Small Town, a Global Industry and a Toxic Secret by Duff Wilson. It's written really well, so it's not as dry to read as some non-fiction. Highly recommended. :thumbsup:

I make my own soap and go out of my way to avoid antibacterial products. They scare me.

[dysfunctional press]

48. a lot of times you'll see tomato plants growing in corn/soybean fields

those farmers are using sludge from the wast treatment plant on their crops- tomato seeds survive the digestive process.

i worked on the reconstruction of a sewage plant- and in one of the tanks that sat drained all summer, tomato plants sterted growing in a couple piles of sludge left in the bottom of the concrete tank.

[Critters2]

8. There are anti-bacterials that don't contain triclosan

Alcohol-based products are safer for the environment. And easier to make (many are made of ethanol), so no big cut for 3M or Monsanto, as with triclocarbon and triclosan.

The real culprits in creating "super-bugs" are sub-therapeutic anti-biotics fed to animals in confined animal feeding operations. If you eat meat, and can't prove that it was raised locally, organically, and free-range, you're contributing to this problem. No matter what kind of soap you use.

Yet another reason to not eat meat.

[intheflow]

9. Cannot believe I'm the first to recommend this for the GP.

I've been thinking right along that this obsession with all things bacterial is over the top.

[Lisa0825]

15. I'd been predicting this since they first came out.

I don't use anything "anti-bacterial" other than hot water with my old fashioned soap! I use hand sanitizer which works because of the alcohol in it, as opposed to antibiotics.

Back when these first came out, I was telling people not to use them. I said to think about how overuse/misuse of antibiotic pills has already led to resistant infections... isn't it logical that spreading antibiotics all over the dang place would do the same?

[Canuckistanian]

17. Isn't ordinary soap antibacterial to begin with?

I was told many times that washing with soap kills germs.

It's worked fine all these years so far, I haven't died of gangrene poisoning or bubonic plague yet.

[Kailassa]

32. Soap doesn't kill germs, but it does remove them.

Most will then die and the water will flush most away.

People forget that our bodies have numerous inbuilt ways of coping with germs.

And getting infections regularly keeps the immune system strong.

[oxbow]

18. hOW DO WE HOLD THEIR BALLS TO THE WALL ON THIS ONE?

We need to make the companies that mnake these stop using Triclosan, and soon. God knows they won't do it by themselves, and we can't count on the government to protect us or our water/crops/environment anymore

[progressoid]

19. All of the schools here use that stuff.

Two students died from the flu a few years ago so now A-B soap is everywhere.

[ContraBass Black]

20. They died from a flu VIRUS, so now anti-BACTERIAL soap everywere?

:crazy:

[FiveGoodMen]

24. My thoughts, too.

That sounds like a totally uninformed, knee-jerk, tell-the-parents-we're-doing-something-about-it, stupid decision.

No one in this country ever faces reality -- you're never completely safe.

[progressoid]

36. Yep - brilliant huh?

[Retrograde]

45. hey, bugs are bugs

Bacteria, viruses - what's the diff? They're both itty bitty bugs you can't see anyway
/sarcasm

I agree with the previous poster who said anti-bacterial soaps etc. are playing to our obsessive/compulsive tendencies. It's also a triumph of marketing, convincing people to buy things we really don't need. Right up there with washing the dishes before putting them into the dishwasher.

I'm definitely in the soap and hot water school: I try to maintain a reasonable standard of cleanliness in the kitchen, and I'm extremely meticulous when it comes to canning material (as in boiling everything that's going to come into contact with food), and enforce the house rules wrt cats on kitchen counters (strictly verboten). OTOH, I do cut up poultry without gloves, and I do use the same cutting board for meats and veggies - especially if they're going in the same pot anyway. That's what the soap, hot water and bleach are for! As for special anti-bacterial stuff - well, I work with 1st-4th graders in a garden: hardly the cleanest of environments.

[InkAddict]

43. You got soap? in school? Amazing

Your system must be rollin' in the dough because they turned off the hot water and quit putting it in the restrooms here long ago! Doesn't do any good to teach hygiene or environmental responsibility anymore. Fear the "germs." If they don't get us, BushCo will!

[PaulaFarrell]

21. Tricolsan is also in quite a few toothpastes

read the label...

[henslee]

22. I don't know how but we (the U.S.) must rethink our every action.

[lovuian]

23. What a mess

Germs are everywhere and they fight back...sounds like a MO for a terrorist...

[BrightKnight]

25. It has been quietly removed from a lot of soap.

The "anti-bacterial" has been quietly removed from a lot of soap. Go to the grocery store and look.

Procter & Gamble markets Dawn for fragrence, color and effecacy. There is no mention of anti-bacterial. I think that they are getting ahead of the curve on this one. I am favorably impressed. Made in the USA too.

I'm not favorably impressed with P&G's 79% Repug contributions.

[northamericancitizen]

26. Kick and recommended.. More people need to read about this. eom

[Betsy Ross]

27. There are uses, albeit rare, for antibacterial products.

Due to a recent infection from resistent staph, household members must use Hibiclens as part of an irradication program. This is only temporary as I too do not believe in the regular use of antibacterial products. In house specialty soaps include pinetar and tea tree oil.

[gristy]

31. antibiotics used to be had by prescription only, and for good reason

But of course, that meant that volumes were low. Now they are everywhere, and the corporations that sell them are making a great deal of money.

[ContraBass Black]

44. Anti-Biotics are OTC?

[Agony]

49. In yummy chicken too!

Just to give you a rough idea about tonnage of AntiB's used... in chicken. from -->http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0419/p14s01-stgn.html

snip 8<
Earlier this year, four major chicken producers told USA Today that they had voluntarily reduced their use of antibiotics. One of them, Tyson Foods, announced that in 1997 it had used 853,000 pounds of antibiotics on its chickens. In 2004, it used just 59,000 pounds, a 93 percent reduction.

Thats why i won't eat chicken unless I can lean out the kitchen window and shoot one with my Italian 28ga loaded with 7 1/2 birdshot. No antibiotics there! (and it makes me feel Vice Presidential)

Actually I wouldn't eat chicken...eggs OK. chicken, Nope!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. I wonder how much the soaps contribute...

to the problem, versus the same antibiotics for agricultural purposes, versus naturally occuring amounts of the antibiotics. Remember, most antibiotics come from soil bacteria.

[arikara]

39. I've never heard of that before

that most antibiotics come from soil bacteria.

Regardless, the toxins added to the soap aren't natural. Nor are the antibiotics that are fed to the animals in lieu of raising them in a clean, stress-free, humane environment.

I just had another thought, the local news was talking about people getting sick from e-coli bacteria on lettuce. This was never an issue before sewage sludge became the fertilizer of choice.

ICK! I'll stick to organic thank you!

[ArmchairMeme]

34. Simplify

I like to be as free as possible from chemicals that I don't want or need. Regular soap works fine and even better a lavender scent. The burden on my body of these extra chemicals do not help my well being. I stopped using chemical cleaners after I read that it said not use them without adequate ventilation! First anything I use on my body and around me or breathe has to be safe for me first.

I think that marketing has used fear to make people buy the products that they wouldn't buy otherwise.

[Agony]

35. This is one reason why products with a USDA Organic label

can't be from food produced on farms/land that use sewage sludge. The National Organics Program (NOP) guidelines are not perfect but worth supporting and expanding. Which means that if you care about this and other food issues you might educate yourself about the current and imminent (like by May 12th) changes to NOP guidelines. link below (if i got the link right)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2616490


sewage sludge often has heavy metals and dioxin in it as well.
sewage sludge proponents like to call it "biosolids" so it sound less noxious.

Obviously we still have to address the problem of what do we do with the sludge... if you live anywhere with a municipal sewage treatment plant this is a problem. Actually you should go visit your local treatment plant, they usually will give you an awesome tour. Of course, my sh*t don't stink.

[tabasco]

40. Sewage sludge proponent.

Now that would look good on the old resume.

[laheina]

41. Interesting angle.

Thanks for the info, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Bruden]

42. Is there any way to know all the products that contain this stuff?