DNA results do not link lacrosse players and rape

[ECH1969]

DNA test results find no match between Duke lacrosse players and a woman who says she was raped at a team party, attorneys for the players say.

http://rdu.news14.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=83083

[sasquatch]

1. Hmm...I wonder if they'll let the Lacrosse teamplay now.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bacchus39]

19. no, they'll make up some lame excuse about the players' "culture"

and that the party itself was reason enough to ban them.

add to that the kid that wrote the nasty email. Boy, I hope some of my emails don't become public knowledge.

[hexola]

27. The party was enough...

The school would appear to approve of stipper parties if they reverse...

[951-Riverside]

30. Strippers, Drinking, Nudity, etc must really get to you hexola.

[hexola]

35. Nope - Stupidity gets to me...

Remember the old saying...

If you can't be good - be good at it...

[northzax]

117. if it's stupid to hire a stripper

is it not equally stupid to be a stripper?

[Bassic]

179. It's usually more desparate than stupid. nt

[Triana]

119. and underage drinking....

...and racist attitutes

[rinsd]

187. Get thee to a nunnery...

The racism is upseting but underage drinking in college?

[Iris]

216. Is a real problem.

A very real problem. So much so that some universities are considering kicking kids out after the 3rd or 4th time they are caught.

[Triana]

224. exactly...

..enough is enough.

[LisaL]

255. Hiring a stripper might be stupid, but it's not a crime.

I don't think anyone should pay for hiring a stripper with a long prison sentence. Do you?

[cantstandbush]

184. You know damn well they used condoms. Who would risk raping

a dancer who might give you some disease? Thousands of rapes are prosecuted and charged without DNA. Wait until the ALL the evidence is in.

[Igel]

194. But also skin, clothing, and fingernails?

Granted, there are apparently rape cases that go to conviction in which the DNA evidence isn't introduced or is lacking.

But at this point, it's a bunch of guys versus a girl, and the girl has little evidence so far on her side: no semen, no evidence she fought back, no evidence from her clothing. She'd better produce the second woman, or get one at least one of the players to testify.

[LostinVA]

198. "No evidence she fought back" WTF?

So, if you don't fight back, it isn't rape? Is this 2006 or 1956... huh? And... I guess her broken fingernails, her bruises, her medical evidence consistent with rape (as per the DA today)

It's fine to ponder and weight things, but falling into rape myths is really dangerous.

And, it's a 27-year-old WOMAN, not girl.

[xultar]

2. OOPS.

[tatertop]

3. "attorneys for the players say"

what do the test results really say?

[xultar]

4. He who gets their side out first gets the good news.

[hexola]

5. It sounds like there WAS DNA though...

Who's was it?

They said there was a lot of confusion and attempts to hide identitys at the party...maybe it WAS the baseball team?

Did the coach give a sample?

[sasquatch]

8. Maybe it was one of the Bush kids?

Some illegitimate Bush child shunned by the family.

[TankerKC]

83. Did the coach give a sample?

What kind of question is that. Maybe you should give a sample. Give it up.

[sasquatch]

6. What in the hell are Nancy Grace and Rita Crosby going to talk about?

:nopity:

[madmark]

104. Has the Prosecutrix ever had an interest in the Libby legal proceeding?

How about the Abramoff matter? Enron? No white collar for her?

[jakefrep]

209. They'll probably hire hitmen...

...to kidnap some blonde female college student - just so they can have something to bloviate about.

[Jane Austin]

7. I hope this is true, because

I can't bear to think there is that kind of organized depravity anywhere in America, much less at one of our top colleges.

I am sorry for whatever happened to the dancer, and I hope whatever happened to her, they get to the bottom of it.

[Exultant Democracy]

9. Well well well

I think there is a lesson to be learned here. The first is how a whole team of players were punished for "stone walling."

[northzax]

106. stonewalling?

48 hours after the accusation was made, the players voluntarily gave DNA. Maybe the reason no one is listed as cooperating is because a: the ones that are don't have anything to say about the assault (if I say "i wasn't there, I was in the basement doing shots") and the cops odn't believe me, am I coorperating, or not? or b: no one has anything useful to say.

we simply don't know. And I find it a bit distasteful that people exercising their constitutional right to consult an attorney before talking to the police is somehow considered 'stone walling'

or maybe they are all stonewalling. But it's really quite difficult to do a lot of damage to someone physically, without leaving some sort of DNA behind.

[Exultant Democracy]

154. opps i forgot that irony doesn't always translate in text

My bad, but we are on the same page.

[LiberalFighter]

214. The players did not volunteer their DNA it was court ordered

As to the rest we don't know the facts

[laureloak]

225. All the news accounts that I've read say DNA was voluntary.

Why do you want these guys to be guilty so badly????????Seems you should be more concerned about people being tried and convicted by the media.

No let's see the picketers and slanderers apologize to these young men and their coach who were wrongly "convicted" without a trial!!!!!!

[LiberalFighter]

232. This doesn't look like they volunteered their DNA -Source MSNBC

Four attorneys representing nearly all the 46 players forced to give samples protested what they said was a presumption that their clients attacked the dancer or kept quiet about what happened. No one has been charged.

According to the application for a court order seeking DNA samples from the team, a nurse trained to treat rape victims and a physician who treated the woman said they witnessed symptoms consistent with sexual assault. The document also includes details of a search of the house where the woman said she was raped for about a half-hour.

Source: NYTimes
Prosecutors asked the entire team to contribute DNA samples. When some declined on the advice of attorneys they hired, Nifong said he sought the court order for samples from all but the team's lone black member.

Source: USAToday
March 23: In accordance with a judge's order, 46 of the lacrosse team's 47 members are told to report to a lab for DNA testing. The order says medical records and interviews of the accuser showed she had "signs, symptoms and injuries" consistent with being raped. Because the accuser identified her attackers as being white, the team's lone African-American player is not required to submit to testing.

By the way I am not wanting these guys to be guilty so badly. It appears that you want these guys to be totally innocent no matter what. What I want are the facts and I am willing to wait. I explicity stated that we don't know the facts about the rest.

I don't know what news you have been reading but I haven't seen anything in the media that states that the men volunteered to submit to DNA testing.

[LostinVA]

262. Most were forced by court order to give DNA

I've seen it in many news accounts. And, you don't know if they're innocent. Or guilty. The DNA results neither implicates nor excuses them.

[Bacchus39]

10. I suspected this was a Tawana Brawley type incident

from the beginning.

very unfortunate.

[aikoaiko]

37. bad for women and minorities if it is another Tawana case.

false rape charges just make it so much harder for women to come forward -- I would imagine doubly so for women of color.

Still I reserve judgment until more facts are revealed and verified.

[cantstandbush]

185. I figured this would come up but i believe this incident happend

as the alleged victim charged. Wait until all the evidence is in. That "blue line" at Duke is very, very thick. I find the DNA results very questionable and almost record setting in the speed in which it was completed. I think at a minimum if I were the family I would get separate DNA testing on the three the alleged victim identified. I would send it out of state for testing and not identify the sources.

[LostinVA]

52. How does the DNA not matching two of the men accused mean

THat she wasn't raped? I don't think that can be said yet. That may be discovered as the truth, but the DNA findings do not also mean this was all a hoax.

[mzmolly]

55. It could be a hoax, or they could have used condoms?

To my understanding she was supposedly raped from behind and might not have seen everything.

[LostinVA]

56. My BIL said this -- they probably used condoms

I never thought the DNA would prove she was lying, only that they were. The DA has said they have alot of other evidence... and I would bet money she's passed a polygraph test.

It isn't easy to fake rape injuries.

[azurnoir]

70. Thank you

The DNA they compared was a swabs from her vagina and were ever else and swabs from inside the players mouths. Really, it occured to me last week that they most likely used condoms. That might be difficult in a one on one rape but this was a gang rape and given the players racial and social attitudes that they used condoms should have been a given.

[northzax]

112. condoms leave traces behind as well

spermicide and the like. My problem is really with the lack of DNA anywhere on her body or on the broken fingernails that she broke fighting them.

I'd be interested in knowing if there was a tox screen on her, looking for date rape drugs, since that could help explain why there's no DNA anywhere. If she was drugged, then you can do a lot of damage without leaving any trace behind (CSI notwithstanding, it could explain a lot)

[mzmolly]

125. re: the broken nails DNA issue, the woman supposedly grabbed

the arm of a man that had her in a headlock from behind, the person doing the grabbing wore a long sleeved shirt, thus the lack of DNA.

I don't think she alleged being drugged?

[northzax]

138. the reports said she was acting erraticaly.

so she might have been drugged without knowing it.

[mzmolly]

148. Ahhh, gotcha.

:hi:

[Evergreen Emerald]

126. condoms do not leave evidence behind.

That is spin by the defense.

[northzax]

151. ok, that's true.

but of course, since almost every condom is covered in nononxnyl-9, a spermicide, which DOES leave traces behind quite often. And in rough sex, such as a rape, one of two things is likely to happen: either a condom will break, or lubricant will be used. and the lubricant leaves traces behind. the rape kit was taken within 12 hours, so the nonoxynol-9 wouldn't have degraded. rape kits routinely test for lubricants and spermicides.

Of course, we don't know the contents of the rape kit. but we know that the condoms (if used) didn't break, since the victim told police that her rapists ejaculated during the act, and no DNA was found.

[seriousstan]

183. Do you have a link to the police report from the victim.

You quoted a fact about ejaculation that I hadn't heard before.

[northzax]

206. I heard it on the teevee last night

and read it somewhere. I can't recall where. it's all speculation right now anyway, I guess.

[LiberalFighter]

215. Hmmm Defense saying use condoms no dna evidence??

I would be slapping that attorney. To me that means his client is guilty and he knows it when he says that.

[seriousstan]

75. They found nothing...DNA, latex, lubricants...NOTHING.

"The experts will tell you that if there was a condom used they would still be able to pick up DNA, latex, lubricant and all other types of things to show that — and that's not here," Cheshire said.

Cheshire said even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it's likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA on her to indicate that she had sex of any type recently.

[LostinVA]

81. Cheshire=Defense Attorney... and a "good" one, at that

And, she was raped, that's pretty much a given. Notice how he frames the statement: he doesn't say there wasn't trauma consistent with a rape so brutal she was hospitalized (which happened), just that there was no DNA suggesting an assault took place. He's calling her a liar without actually saying that, because that would be a lie on his part. Very wily....

[TankerKC]

85. And, she was raped, that's pretty much a given...

...so let's hang some privileged college boys!

[LostinVA]

89. I didn't say that -- putting words in my mouth -- stop it

I don't give a damn who the rapists are -- I want them convicted and imprisoned.

[BrownOak]

157. But at the same time...

... you don't seem too open to the possibility that IF this alleged victim was raped it happened anywhere but at that party.

[TankLV]

128. That is a very irresponsible accusation.

That she was NOT raped is the given.

The thorough tests/exam prove that.

Your statement shows your prejudice.

Not nice.

[Evergreen Emerald]

103. That is not true

If someone uses a condom, there is less likely to be DNA. There is very little chance of "latex" evidence. That is Spin.

[mzmolly]

122. Interesting.

Thanks for the info.

I heard someone today suggest a broom was used? Pardon the crudity. Also, they did find injury consistent with rape according to the forensics to my understanding.

I'm not decided personally.

The one thing that is nagging to me is the mysterious phone call that defense attorneys think is related. Some are suggesting a dispute about money and say that is the motive to lie?

Again, I await more information.

[northzax]

152. reports say

and we have whack reports from everywhere on this, that the victim said that the accused ejaculated during the rape, so more than a broom was obviously used if this is the case.

[madmark]

109. she could have been raped by a pimp or boyfriend who put her up

to making the false accusations.

[0007]

120. What about the coach, why did he quit?

[madmark]

121. well if he was at the party, sign him up for a dna test; i was of the

understanding that he was not involved but embarrassed by the existence of his players stripper party and the creepy email purportedly by one of the players musing about killing strippers.

[Orangepeel]

142. I don't think the coach's resignation means anything.

If there hadn't been a rape (or accusations of rape), the party with underage drinking and strippers and violent emails wouldn't have gotten the PR that it did. But, if for whatever reason -- a death, a drug bust -- the party got the PR, the coach was going to have to resign.

[rinsd]

189. Why did Cynthia McKinney apologize if she didn't do it?

Most likely the coach was falling on his sword to save his career and the lacrosse program at Duke.

In the sports world this is the equivalent of hari kari, keeping ones honor when faced with shame that ultimately is your responsibility.

[LostinVA]

235. I'm tired of this pimp argument -- the woman is not a prostitute

You honestly think this wouldn't have been known by the cops? It sure as hell would be known NOW.

No DNA present means NOTHING one way or another.

[adigal]

123. I thought I heard something about condoms

so if that WERE true, there would be no DNA.

I did hear, however, that there may be other evidence, such as skin, hair, etc., if they raped her.

[BrownOak]

159. Condoms

The issue about condoms was brought up by the DA after the player's attorneys stated that the DNA would come back without any matches.

[RawMaterials]

173. The whole Team gave DNA

all 48 of them and their was no match not on her close, not in side her, or on the outside. I smell a counter suite, this lady has tarnished the reputation of all 48 players for the rest of their lives for doing something that everyone in college has the opportunity to do (going to a party to drink, and maybe a striper shows up)

[LostinVA]

263. The lack of DNA means nothing

It neither means they're innocent or they're guilty. 70% of rape cases have no DNA evidence resulting from tests. Women on DU whose rapists wore condoms have stated the use of the condom meant no DNA evidence. These DNA results does not automatically mean the woman is a liar -- both the ER doctor, the ER nurse, and the rape kit exam have shown injuries, etc. consistent with rape. Whomever the rapists were, there was a rape. This isn't a "Tawana Brawley."

People on DU need to educate themselves about rape, rape evidence, etc.

[BrownOak]

269. Statistics

I'm not particularly interested in the percentage of overall rape cases that have no DNA evidence. What I want to know is how many rape cases fitting this profile - a violent assault from multiple assailants where DNA swabs were taken within a few hours - produce DNA evidence. I would also want to know the percentage of rape cases where a condom was used where there was no evidence of latex or spermicides that would be found in the DNA swabs.

I don't discount the likelihood that there was some type of sexual trauma inflicted on this woman. I just see way too many inconsistencies in the reports to assume that it occurred that evening at that residence.

[laureloak]

227. There was no evidence of sexual intercourse of any kind.

So where's the "rape"???

Why are you people so stubbornly clinging to the idea that these guys did something wrong?? In America it's "innocent until proven guilty", but these guys have been branded "guilty until proven innocent". It's because they are white, isn't it?

[LostinVA]

234. Who said there was no evidence of intercourse? Not the DA

or the medical evidence, as per the DA. NO ONE has said there's no evidence of this.... where are you getting this? How dare you say that, when evidence points to the fact that someone sexually assualted her that night. Why are YOU so quick to call the victime a liar?

I am sick of the "white" thing. Seriously. I want to see rapists convicted, and don't give a damn what color they are. I'm white, and some of these posts talking about "reverse discrimination" are mind-blowing to me... especially since we have THIRD PARTY witnesses that refer to derogatory racial remarks being made by some of the players. This doesn't make them rapists, but it does make them racists. THEY and you and some other posters are the ones who brought race into thus.... not me nor 99% of other posters.

Hate to tell you that the DNA results do not prove them guilty or innocent... it just proves no DNA was present. Like several women on this board who have stated no DNA showed up in their rape kit exams either... but they were still raped.

[BrownOak]

238. In the interest of accuracy...

The actual quote from the defense, which was based on the evidence in the DNA report was that there was no DNA evidence to indicate she had any sexual activity recently.

The language used in the request for the second search warrant stated that the rape exam found that the alleged victim showed signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped.

It's wrong to state that there was no evidence of sexual activity as there could be other evidence of sexual activity that is not DNA based.

It's also wrong to say that evidence points to the fact that someone sexually assaulted her that night. First, you can't say she was sexually assaulted as those symptoms and injuries could have come from somewhere else. Secondly, you definitely can't say that she was sexually assaulted that night, as there have been no statements from medical exam that would limit the period of inury to that evening.

That may seem to be parsing things a little fine, but the point is important. If the unsubstantiated claims from the defense are verified (that the escort arrived at the house with bruises as shown in photographs and that the alleged victim never mentioned any sexual assault to the second escort after they left the house) then it would seem very unlikely that an assault took place in the house that evening.

As for the racial aspects and people's assumptions, I think there's a lot that goes into that. There's a much heavier presumption of guilt on these boards than there is presumption of innocence. That's somewhat of a race factor, but it's also a political factor. The image of these guys being a bunch of Young Republicans with rich, white daddies doesn't play well. There's a heavier presumption of guilt within the black community because of the racial aspects and because of the general anger in a large portion of that community due to their socioeconomic condition. There's a heavier presumption of guilt on in the media because... well, because guilt plays well.

[JoFerret]

171. Clear difference being

that these young men (most of them) are renowned for boorish, offensive, foul (and in some cases misogynist and homophobic) behavior whatever the details about this incident are.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Great News!

Like I was so worried about this story :silly:.

[sasquatch]

12. Read Post #6

[951-Riverside]

13. YES! YES! YES!!!!!!!

I hope you DU'ers who wanted to hang these poor boys feel ashamed of yourselves

[Bacchus39]

14. yep, it seems that way

and in the main stream media too, it seemed everyone was "wanting" there to be a criminal case.

[hexola]

17. I have no less contempt for these morons...guilty or not...

Just hiring a stripper and organizing something like this is enough for me...

[951-Riverside]

20. Uhhh... Its not a crime to hire a stripper

[hexola]

24. No - but it reflects poorly enough on your school and sport...

that I have no problem with the season cancelation and coach resignation...

[Bacchus39]

22. ohhh brother! do you have contempt for someone who falsely

accuses someone of rape??

[hexola]

26. Sure - why not...?

Even if it was a false charge - it doesn't exonerate them from stupidity...

I say let the season cancelation stand...

[951-Riverside]

29. What exactly makes them stupid?

[hexola]

32. Hiring a stripper...stupid.

Not commenting on anyones chosen profession...really.

But I think the school can throw them out just for the party itself...

It was dumb - the results testify to that...

[FlaGranny]

213. Wow!

Maybe the Christian Coalition should station morality police on campuses? Or, on the other hand, 75% of college students could just be thrown out because they don't conform to the right morality.

[hoboken123]

219. I so miss the puritans

Did I missed your comment about the stripper and the possible false allegations, all I saw was your shot at the players.



It was dumb - the results testify to that...

That sure sounds like the ends justify the means.

[LostinVA]

58. No one has proven she falsely accused them of rape

The DNA was never meant to show that she was lying, only that the players were. WE have no idea what evidence the rape kit picked up, etc. As someone said up thread, he who gets his side out first often wins public opinion. It's unprofessional and dangerous for DAs to try cases in the court of public opinion. The DA has said there's "other evidence." I'll wait to hear that before I say these men are totally innocent.

[joeunderdog]

111. Uh, "no one has proven"...Anything.

Why not wait to call these men guilty rather than wait to say they're innocent. Or am I in the wrong country again?

[LostinVA]

178. Uh.... I know

My point is that on the two DNA threads, many posters are using this to say that the complaintant is a hoaxer, a scam artist, and this proved the players are innocent. I'm going Fromm that angle.

For MANY in these threads, saying the players are Innocent because of the DNA is blaming the victim. I refuse to do that. Take those posters to school for this also.

I'm not on the jury, I'll never be on the jury. I can discuss this on a public discussion board.

[joeunderdog]

212. They are innocent. All of them...

until proven guilty. That's my point.

[erpowers]

63. No Proof of False Allegation

There is no proof that the rape allegation was false. It is very possible that these guys were very smart and decided to use condoms. It is very possible that a host of things were done to cover a crime. Maybe you people that are jumping to accuse this girl of lying of rape should wait and give her the benefit of the doubt.

[adigal]

129. All of the evidence is not yet in

so accusing the woman of false accusations is in and of itself, false.

The DA said that there is more evidence than the DNA (condom use possible) such as hair and skin, and that may not be included in this DNA evidence. To accuse this woman of making this up at this point seems premature to me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. Really? You have equal contempt for someone who hires a stripper...

...compared to one who rapes her?

The popular press was ready to hang these guys (myself included) but the evidence does not support guilt.

I wonder why the "victim" agreed to DNA testing?

[hexola]

80. Correction - I have more contempt for the rapist who hires a stripper...

Thanks for making me clarify that...

[joeunderdog]

108. "no less contempt"? Huh?

No difference between rape and hiring a woman who has chosen to strip to make money? She deserves an opportunity to make a living and they deserve the opportunity to purchase the entertainment. It's her body and their money. It's their choice. Rape is not a choice.

Lets just lock up all the people who buy porn while we're at it.

[hexola]

124. No rights involved....they represent the school...they defaced the school

Get rid of all of them...

I could care less what people/stippers do - go for it...I'm not for curtailing anyones rights...

But the school can maintian whatever character standards they like...rights arent always the final answer...

No contempt for the stripper...just doin' her job...

[joeunderdog]

141. They defaced the school for hiring a stripper?

All schools are defaced then. All of them. Happens in every college. It's not a crime, even if it's not sanctioned. It's a (cough, cough) "values issue" as per the GOP, I believe.

I believe the "no rights involved" comment is also closer to the GOP way of thinking. Same with the "rights arent always the final answer" remark.

Take a deep breath, let the facts come out and don't convict the horny college boys unless they are rapists.

[hexola]

147. Yep its a values issue...thiers, not mine...who cares?

Yes - all schools are defaced...if they caught in situation like this...

The school can maintain whatever standards they like - regardless of any rights...(to some extent)

Who cares what the values are?...GOP, Duke, Dem, Larry Flynt...the point is, instiutions have standards and they expect their members to live up to them...if they dont - tough shit for them.

Im not convicting anyone - but I have no problem with them canceling the season, expulsion...etc...all a far cry from legal convition for a specific act...

[951-Riverside]

195. Schools have values?

Where are you getting this from, Laura Bush?

[TankLV]

132. oh boy...

I feel sorry for you.

[Le Taz Hot]

177. Oh, please!

*I've hired both male and female strippers and I'm a female. Doesn't make me a rapist. Some of you people are getting WAY out of control over this and are using it to push some wierd personal agenda.

[Pastiche423]

68. Why should "you" DUers feel ashamed?

By your statement, it is obvious you know zip about rape.

I was raped by four men and no DNA could be found w/the rape kit. Does that mean I wasn't rpaed?

NO! It does not.

I resent your sexist statement.

[LostinVA]

72. AS soon as I saw this on Yahoo, I knew GD would be brutal tonight

Surprise... I was right...

[femmedem]

82. I'm saddened to hear that. Thanks for speaking up.

I don't know much about the accuracy of rape kits. Does this happen often?

My rapist used a condom, so I didn't have DNA evidence either.

[BoneDaddy]

95. I think either scenario of deception would be horrible

I think it is too early to jump to any conclusion. It would be horrible if these young men did this and got off without consequences, I hope if found guilty they pay the price. But it would also be horrible if this is a lie and was a set up for them as a way to extort money from these individuals or the college, not to mention ruining their reputations as well as their athletic aspirations.

[jeffrey_X]

99. CONTRACEPTION DOWN?????

don't be afraid to think outside the box.

[TankLV]

131. Yes, aparently some here still do.

I am truly disgusted with some posters, who thousands of miles away just KNOW more than the people who actually did the examinations.

[mzmolly]

136. It's too soon to hang anyone just yet.

;)

[JoFerret]

172. LOL

"Poor boys" Awwww.
Aside this incident there is just so much offensive stuff I have learned about this group that while, I hope they are not guilty of this particular crime (I hope it did not happen), they are not people i would want to be anywhere near, ever.
And as for the email writer...and his assumptioms about the people he was writing to...Dreadful and sick.

[Lex]

16. DNA of 2 of the accused men on a towel and on the floor of the bathroom

where the rape allegedly occurred.

[hexola]

18. BOYS??? They are MEN...

I noticed they went out of their way to call them boys

...oh they are just little boys! Wrong - they are full grown men...

[hexola]

21. fast editing...

[Lex]

25. I edited also to show that 2 of the men accused are the 2

whose DNA was found on a towel and on the floor of the bathroom.

But thank you for noticing my quick editing.

[Lex]

23. Thank you for your polite response to my post.

I edited my post to reflect the facts more clearly.

[LiberalFighter]

218. You are right... if they are old enough to hire strippers and legal sex

then they are men under the law.

[NashVegas]

28. Is There a Link for This?

can't find it posted yet.

[Lex]

33. I just watched the live local press conference

by the defense attorneys carried by local channel WRAL.

WRAL's news website is likely to have a download of the news conference shortly. Check this site: www.wral.com

[NashVegas]

38. Defense Lawyers Said It Was on the Mat?

Geez, they should know better than to crow innocent, then.

[Lex]

42. Toward the end of the defense attorneys' press conference

a member of the press asked a question (I couldn't hear the question) but the defense attorney speaking, Joe Cheshire, said that he will say that 2 of the accused men's DNA was found "on a towel" in that bathroom and "on the floor" in that bathroom where the accused said she was raped.

He didn't say what kind of DNA he was speaking of but I figured semen but he didn't say so.

[NashVegas]

44. Ah

So what will the defense lawyers say? Someone held her down while they all jerked off?

[hexola]

45. Not exactly what he said...It was their bathroom - not the one in the rape

They didnt say DNA in the rape bathroom -

He was trying to say - the DNA was in the bathroom those men used...

Not sure if the media followed up - perhaps it was in the rape bathroom - but that wasnt said...

[Lex]

46. I understood him to say it was THE bathroom and ALSO

he said it was their regular bathroom.

However, perhaps you are correct. The press conference, in its entirety, isn't up anywhere yet that I know of.

[Richard Steele]

57. Video is up at WRAL.com now nm

[NashVegas]

47. Goodness. How Confusing

I'm officially done speculating without further info.

[Lex]

48. I'll link the press conference when it is up on the web.

Maybe it'll be clearer then.

Or not. :shrug:

[Lex]

51. Crisco -- the link to the defense attorneys' news conference

is up on the www.wral.com page now if you want to hear it/see it yourself. First story.

[mzmolly]

127. I guess it was just DNA, it could be urine/skin/hair to my understanding?

And, the two men whos DNA was found are the men who lived in the house in question.

[northzax]

153. heck, my DNA is all over my bathroom

and lord knows I occasionally have towels that have semen on them. Especially in college.

[BrownOak]

161. Great Assumption

Of course they didn't say anything about semen but let's just all assume that was it.

But they did note that it was the bathroom of the two guys in question. So, based on the fact that they found DNA in the same bathroom these guys use every day, it's clear that it has to be semen and these guys must be illegal. Sure seems logical.

Wait, the state's report also said there was no DNA from the alleged victim in the room? No problem, we'll just ignore that.

[aikoaiko]

233. For those of you who don't know, its not uncommon for men to ejaculate

in their pants while receiving lap dances from strippers. And it wouldn't be uncommon for those men to go wipe themselves off in the bathroom.

Don't ask how I know -- this is just a public service announcement for those who wonder what alternative explanation there might be for why their would be semen on a towel.

[aikoaiko]

31. Holy Smokes --

I know it is just one case and that doesn't undo all the other legitimate cases, but now all the doubters will doubt more if it is true that none of the lacrosse players had sex with her or raped her.

I wonder what the real truth is.

[aquart]

34. So the woman is not a blood relative of the team?

[NashVegas]

36. Unanswered Questions

Do we know if the police report indicates semen or other DNA samples were actually found on or in her body?

If Lex's info is correct, rape cannot be ruled out. There's too much we don't know. Condoms, for instance?

[hexola]

39. There was DNA - they tested SOMETHING...

So - they dont have the right guys...

Keep looking...

A far cry from declaring this a hoax...

[Lex]

40. It'll be interesting to hear what the DA has to say now.

Just because there is no DNA "on" or "in" the victim does not mean she wasn't raped.

[LostinVA]

50. Sources said the DA said he had other evidence

[BrownOak]

162. Correct

But it does make it far less likely that she was raped by those she accused.

[blondeatlast]

41. So far, the only "official" source for this is the DEFENSE ATTORNEY

who would have no desire whatsoever to try this case in the media, now would he???

:sarcasm:

I remain utterly unconvinced of the team's guilt or innocence until the police or/and the prosecution says the same thing.

[Lex]

43. I suspect that the DA will have a response to

the defense attorneys' press conference.

She was hospitalized with her injuries and none of those medical reports or pictures have been released yet.

[genie_weenie]

61. Isn't your stance against US law?

"I remain utterly unconvinced of the team's guilt or innocence until the police or/and the prosecution says the same thing."

I thought it was innocent until proven guilty? Isn't this what we are all angry about in terms of Gitmo? Do you have the same ideas when it comes to the men held at Gitmo? That until the State says they are innocent it's a-okay for them to be held there?

[femmedem]

168. I beg to differ.

Yes, "innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt" is our standard in criminal court. But the standard is different in civil court.

I think our problem with Gitmo is that there are no plans for trial, our government is torturing them, and contends that we can do with these men what we please because no laws apply. It's not analogous.

A better analogy might be, do you consider Bush innocent until proven guilty?

All of which is not to say that the students are definitely guilty. But I don't feel obliged to believe they're definitely innocent, either.

[genie_weenie]

182. Well, let's look a few things

These things happened prior to the men being convicted:

The LaCrosse season was canceled.
Fliers were distributed around Duke Campus with their pictures (at least 43 of the 46).
"Take Back the Night Rallies" were held.
Daily protests on the campus.
The MSM spotlight was turned onto the Men.

That's the problem I have groups (read: mobs) had convicted these men just based on the allegation. And you know what it's pretty scary to have the entire public against you along with the sword of Damocles (the All Powerful US Government) investigating and turning your entire lives inside out. But, then why shouldn't the government be able to investigate everything about them and get full cooperation from the Men, after all if they have nothing to hide...

And of course, the very unfortunate angle many commentators took was a racial one.
For example:
http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=4767
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/03/earlyshow/main1462435.shtml

The real problem is this "event" will entrench people on both sides and women who have been victim of sexual assaults (this is not to say this woman wasn't) will be hesitant to go through the process.

[femmedem]

207. Good points, all.

I'm as disturbed by mob mentality as you are. Maybe I misunderstood your comment "innocent until proven guilty." I thought you were saying it was anti-American to say, "IMHO, they probably did it" or even "I'm withholding judgment until I learn more."

Regardless of the outcome, I don't think this will make it harder for women to come forward if they've been assaulted. I say this because it's already so hard. Women know that their character and their word will likely be attacked. When there aren't any witnesses, that's the usual defense.

If we are lucky, the truth will come out. In the meantime, I think it's been good for us all to look at our own biases and assumptions.

[genie_weenie]

210. Thanks,

I wouldn't attack someone for their personal position on this but what I will demand is the State PROVE the case before punishments are inflicted. You are certainly able to think whatever you want about this case. I do get uneasy when rallies are held against people prior to their conviction though...

And I am a little shocked by how fast all the progressives call forth the awesome power of the state to crush people, pre-trial...

So, good conversation and peace be with you!

[AllieB]

66. The victim must have beaten herself then

:sarcasm:

And the neighbors heard her yell racial epithets, not the lacrosse team. :sarcasm:

I'll wait until the official announcement.

[LostinVA]

73. And she caused amazingly real rape-like injuries to herself

[951-Riverside]

196. You don't know if she has any injures

[AllieB]

236. The articles on the subject said she was beaten

[LisaL]

256. The police officer that took a look at her in a parking lot

described her as being passed out drunk but not needing an ambulance. If she was severely beaten, don't you think that police officer would have noticed?

[Igel]

197. On the other hand, imagine if you're a juror.

And make the assumptions that the defense attorney doesn't routinely go "ooo ... purdy" and drool on himself whenever he sees shiny objects, and that his ultimate goal isn't to make sure the guys get dates when they're on bail, but to keep them from jail.

You the juror have read that the defense attorney trumpeted that the DNA report said "no DNA from the lacrosse players".

Then you're handed a copy of the report in the jury room, and it says "DNA from two of the lacrosse players found in defendent's vagina and under her fingernails."

Has the defense attorney helped his client or not?

[blondeatlast]

49. Save the breathless headlines for when the prosecutor

drops the case--until then, I'm unconvinced either way.

[hexola]

53. Agree - the teams lawyer went public after having the results for 30 mins.

Not a lot of time to think over your position...or the results.

It looks good - but its not totally conclusive...

Im suprised they rushed out there like that...?

Why not just issue a statement..?

[BrownOak]

163. Unless

Unless of course that the results came back exactly as they expected. In that case the defense were likely just sitting around waiting for the DNA tests to confirm exactly what they were told by the suspects.

[Lex]

54. A link to the video of the Defense Attorneys' Press Conference

that occured around 6pm EDT today can be found in this story:
http://www.wral.com/news/8600601/detail.html

[gizmo1979]

59. Oh man this is going to get ugly!

Wow is all I can say wow.

[KingFlorez]

60. I'm still believing something happened

Her finger nails were broken and left on the bathroom floor plus she show signs of being assaulted. Something happened and I believe a crime was committed.

[genie_weenie]

62. Just a question. Please see my post #63

Would it be okay if * said, "I'm still convinced all the people we have at Gitmo did something. After all we found them in the Middle East."

[KingFlorez]

65. This isn't about Gitmo

I'm not trying to accuse people unfairly here, I'm just saying that it still seems as if a crime was committed.

[genie_weenie]

78. It doesn't matter if it seems that way

And I am cognizant of the fact that many rapes do occur and some are not reported because of the crushing effect the rape has on the victim. And I am not bashing the accuser or belittling her charge.

But, let's all please remember the virulent hatred being spilled at these Men before their conviction. It's pretty scary to be on the wrong side of an investigation by the God Damned All Powerful State.

[erpowers]

67. Missing the Point

I am very pro-innocent until proven guilty. What you seem to fail to realize about the people in this post who are not willing to say the Duke players are innocent is that the evidence does not completely clear the players. It is very different to pick up a person who is wandering a country and saying you are not convinced that someone is innocent in that their is other evidence that points toward there having been a rape. If some of these guys had been picked up with guns then yest they should be held; however, they there is no proof whatsoever that many of the men being held at Gitmo participated in any terrorist activity. In the Duke rape case there is proof that the woman who accused them was actually raped and the DNA of some of the men was found in the bathroom that may have been used in the rape. Also, in the case of rape the lack of DNA evidence does not mean a rape did not occur. It is possible that the men used condoms. Also, it is possible the men just stopped short of ejaculation and used the floor instead. They may have thought why make a baby during the rape. Maybe they were smart and realized that if the DNA showed up on the woman they were going to jail. Maybe they were able to clean any DNA that was on the women off. I realize the last one could be a stretch, but it might be possible. There are many rape cases that never get solved that does not mean they did not happen.

[genie_weenie]

76. You are correct. There are many possibilities.

Which is why we are supposed to have a system set up which does not convict or punish (let's say by canceling their sport season) a person until prior to a court date and after the State has PROVEN their guilt.

And many a person has looked guilty or been found in a situation which seems to indicate they are guilty, but first every person discredited the photos claiming the accuser was inebriated and bruised prior to her strip show and now everyone seems to be attempting to discredit the lack of DNA.

It seems many DUers are already convinced of the guilt of these Men. And that is not the US legal system.

[psychopomp]

84. Maybe if we tortured them we would get some answers

:evilgrin:

[erpowers]

167. Not Convinced Just Skeptical

I do not think many people are convinced of the guilt of the men; they are just skeptical that a woman who was raped or beaten would go to a strip show in order to strip. Also the way the defense attorneys have been working is making a large number of people wonder if they are just trying to force the girl into settling at a later date. I did not believe the defense attorney who went on NBC and claimed that he did not show the pictures to the prosecution because someone whom he did not know had already leaked the details of the pictures to the media so he had to come out and show the pictures before showing them to the prosecution. The defense attorney claimed that the pictures were date stamped, but then he went on to say the pictures did not have dates on them there was some type thing that was done that proves the time the pictures were taken. Before the DNA came out I really thought the defense attorneys were trying to scare the girl into settling the case later. That is not because I do not believe in or have lost respect in innocent until proven guilty, I just believe his attorneys, at least one of them, has been acting as if the men are guilty and he just wants to get the case dropped. I have never claimed the men should be thrown in jail before they were tried.

[bbinacan]

69. I heard on local radio here in Raleigh, NC

that there was no DNA evidence on the finger nails.:shrug:

[LostinVA]

74. There only would be DNA if she was able to scratch them

Also, someone on one of the threads said her fingernails were broken off... why?

People: the lack of DNA does NOT mean she wasn't raped and beaten! She was -- there is medical evidence of that. If there wasn't, there's no way in hell the DA would take this case on... and I guarantee she passed a polygraph, too.

[seriousstan]

91. Do you have a link to any of your allegations, or is it all "a given"?

Link to the medical evidence or the polygraph?

[LostinVA]

97. What are you talking about?

I never said I had any "link" to this. Back off. Your aggressiveness towards me is out of place.

It's a FACT that if she didn't scratch her attackers, they would be no skin, etc. under the fingernails.

And, I don';t believe my post said I knew/had read she had taken a polygrp
I wasn't accusing your precious little lads of being the rapists. I was saying that there has been reported evidence that the woman was raped and beaten badly enough to be hospitalized. It's kinda hard to fake being raped and beaten.

[seriousstan]

113. "and I guarantee she passed a polygraph" That sounds like "I know"

You are tossing around baseless assertions like they are fact. If my pointing it out by asking what you base your assertions on is "aggressiveness" then so be it. I thought, perhaps, you had a link or knowledge of fact that I hadn't seen. I am sorry I was mistaken. You have claimed a facial and bodily beating but you fail to offer any verification. You have claimed a partially dislocated leg that I have seen no other claim for. These are the links I was requesting.

I will not back off in a search for facts and knowledge.

[LostinVA]

180. I've read in several news reports that she was badly beaten, including her

face. Other posters have also said this -- so back off. Questioning is one thing, but your aggressiveness in your questioning is disturbing. Jesus.

Ignore. I'm not being browbeat from someone who thinks bullying is debating.

[knight_of_the_star]

105. First

Even if she passed a polygraph that evidence is still inadmissable in court because polygraphs are not reliable enough to be considered evidence.

Second, I would like to see a link to the medical reports.

Third, I'm reserving judgement on this case until the Jury, if one is called, reaches their verdict. This is a country of innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. At this point I'm not making any judgement until ALL the evidence is on the table.

[LostinVA]

201. First... quit putting words into other people's mouths

Secondly, who said the polygraph would eb used in court? No one. The polygraph would be used by the DA's office to help decode whether or not to prosecute aggressively. An ex works in a NC DA's office -- this is SOP.

Thirdly, ask the DA for the medical files. He's the one saying there is evidence of rape, as per the rape kit and ER nurse.

Fourthly, this isn't a court of law... and, if you want people to be Innocent until proven guilty, tell some of the MANY posters on this thread that this also includes not saying the victim is a hoaxer and scammer. The woman was raped, regardless of anything else. She IS a victim of a crime.

[jberryhill]

205. Correct, and...

...if she had been drugged and raped prior to arriving at this house in a dissociative, traumatized mental state (and some say she was disoriented), then it is also entirely possible that she may truly believe it happened there.

[DuaneBidoux]

239. Do you have further info? I heard there was no physical evidence

of rape. Could be wrong I just thought that was what I heard.

[LostinVA]

257. You didn't hear that -- only the Defense lawyer implying that

but, he didn't actually say that. Check news reports -- the DA has said several times there was evidence consistent with vaginal and anal rape, as per the ER doctor and nurse and medical exam.

The ONLY place you heard anything at all like this was from the defense attorney... but he didn't say that... he was very vague about it. See? It worked.

I read on cnn last night that the large majority of rape cases have no DNA evidence. DU women have said there was no DNA evidence collected after their rapes... but they were raped, and the guy was convicted. Let's just put aside for a moment whether or not any lacrosse players were the rapists... the evidence points to the woman being raped. A crime was committed.

[bbinacan]

160. IMHO

this case is dead in the water. As a UNC alum, I hate Duke. But this is over.

[ecstatic]

64. Assuming the evidence was not tampered with...

I mean, these are kids of priviledge... some of them are probably above the law.

[TankLV]

140. Okaaaaaaay - not prejudiced much, huh?

Wow...

[hexola]

149. Why not start a thread about the "racism" in this case?

You might do a better job at making your point - instead of posting the same thing over and over again.

[FredScuttle]

77. Excuse me

but is there any indication that the defense lawyers actually viewed the DNA report? The article says the report was delivered to police and prosecutors.

Seems to me more attempts to poison the potential jury pool

[KingFlorez]

79. Good angle

Hadn't thought about that

[BOHICA06]

86. DNA reports were delivered to all who gave samples ...

that is, sharing the evidence, or in this case the LACK of evidence.

[FredScuttle]

88. Where are you getting that from?

The article makes no mention of that...don't you think that's a particularly important piece of information if the defense attorney is to be believed?

[LostinVA]

90. I don't think that happened

MAYBE results, but not the report itself...

[BOHICA06]

94. You are correct ... results

The prosecutor in the reported rape case involving Duke University's lacrosse team said team members will be given the results of their DNA tests when the results come back as early as next week, a requirement under state law.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/14257167.htm

[CTyankee]

87. Has anyone asked why a woman who showed signs of rape

would cry rape if it hadn't happened? I don't know why a woman would do that, given the circumstances. Was she raped before the strip incident and did she decide just to blame the Duke guys? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Sorry, I just don't get it.

[LostinVA]

92. And, she was also beaten, including her head/face

Had a leg partially dislocated, etc.

Everyone's acting like lack of DNA means she wasn't raped, or that people at the party didn't do it. SEveral posters on her have stated their rapist used a condom, and no DNA was found on them.

[BOHICA06]

96. But with no DNA matches to the party goers ...

skin, blood, other fluids. That beating does not look like it was perpetrated by the suspects or maybe even at the location claimed by the accuser.

[LostinVA]

98. We don't know any of that

[genie_weenie]

100. Actually we DO know

they are not guilty until proven so... Of course, if she had simply accused them of withccraft I would have believed her completely. Since an acqusation of THAT magnitude automatically means the accused are guilty.

Man those were the days!!! Little or no court time, the ability to torture, if only those days could be brought back and applied to all the enemies of our glorious State!

[TankLV]

145. Yes we do. There are pictures of her when she arrived.

She already had the injuries BEFORE she arrived. The pics prove it.

[genie_weenie]

150. Facts don't matter.

in case of this magnitude. Those pics were taken too cover the Rapists later actions, they used condoms that's why there's no DNA. To some people it won't matter, just as not guilty until proven so doesn't matter.

I can only hope we get some justice (whatever THAT is) in this case. And unfortunately, this case is going to hurt women who have been sexually assaulted, since many will conclude they can not get retribution without being maligned, look at the Kobe Bryant case.

[LostinVA]

165. No, we don't know -- the photos haven't been made public

[jberryhill]

200. You want the victim's photo published?

So if someone publishes a photo of the victim arriving with injuries, it won't bother you that they are publishing a photo of the victim, correct?

You won't believe it unless the photos are made public, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want the photos published either.

I don't know whether to believe it or not, but it is dreadfully apparent why the pictures have not been published - the suspects would be crucified if they did that.

[TankLV]

143. Which all occured BEFORE she arrived to strip.

Read the report.

[LostinVA]

166. WHAT report? There is no legal report that says ANY of this

[madmark]

107. beaten and raped by a boyfriend/pimp with orders to pin it on the

impending duke partiers and then ring the register with a suit. Not saying its smart or likely to succeed, but I have seen scenarios close to this perpetrated by scumbags that pull shit like this.

[jazzjunkysue]

252. Like the mothers of the Michael Jackson victims. They knew all about

Michael's past when they let their kids sleep over. The poor kids might not have known what was going to happen, but I bet their mothers did. Those poor kids were fed to a known pedophile.

[mzmolly]

130. People suggest revenge for being stiffed ???

It has been asked, but it's still a good question.

[TankLV]

146. Riiight. Women never lie, men always do. Riiight.

Especially those "rich white boys - er "men"!

[IndianaGreen]

93. so much for jumping to conclusions

I admit I haven't followed the case other than to watch what was on TV about it.

[chapel hill dem]

102. ESPN is reporting that photos taken at the party show the dancer ...

DURHAM, N.C. -- Time-stamped photographs will show an exotic dancer was already injured and "very impaired" when she arrived at a party where she claims she was raped by members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team, an attorney for one of the players said Sunday.

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.

"This young lady was substantially impaired. She had fallen several times during the course of the evening," Thomas said.

He declined to identify the player he represents and said he would not release the photos, taken by at least two cameras, until pending DNA tests are completed.

(continued)

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2403062

[joeunderdog]

Anyone else riding the fence on this one?

Unless she's NUTS or covering for someone, she wouldn't cry "rape" if it didn't happen. No one puts themself thru that. But having NO DNA evidence anywhere on her body after a gang rape?

This just doesn't add up.

[IndianaGreen]

118. Remember the Tawana Brawley case?

We should withhold judgment until the prosecutor has something to say. There is no doubt a crime was committed here. There is either a false report to police, which is a crime, or something happened to the woman before the party.

[mzmolly]

134. I'm on the fence. I think it's irresponsible to arrive at a conclusion

before hearing the evidence.

[PassingFair]

192. Has anyone sent the tape to ...

Bill Frist?

He can diagnose rape from a videotape, or so I've heard....

[mzmolly]

133. Very interesting.

The mystery continues.

[LostinVA]

199. Except the dense attorney on "Today" admitted they WEREN'T time stamped

So there goes that theory...

And, the DNA results are back, and STILL no photos have been released....

[jberryhill]

203. The photos will not be released...

...because if they release photos of the victim, then that is PRECISELY the sort of thing that the defense gets slammed about in rape cases.

I'd be interested to know what the attorney said, because ALL digital cameras put EXIF data into the jpeg files in which the images are stored. We're not talking about a "time stamp" of the kind that is superimposed on the image (you can google EXIF if you don't understand the distinction). Most consumer users of digital cameras are completely unaware of the EXIF data.

[Leilani]

101. There are pictures to exonerate the players

Timed digital phots.

She arrived at the house, bleeding & in bad shape.

She was obviously in some altercation before the party.

The fingernails show DNA of an unknown.

There is DNA of 2 players on their own towels, which is normal.

They also have 2 phone calls exonerating the players.

This was a witchhunt from the get-go. Tawana Brawley anyone?

Looks like she was in some situation, & blamed it on the "rich, white, elitist, Duke payers, perhaps looking for some money.

The players have been smeared, a wonderful University has been smeared, & a coach has lost his job.

There's also ugly politics going on in Durham, which played into this.

I'm fed up with ugly reverse racism. I'm outta Here.

[KingFlorez]

110. Whatever you want to believe

This was not reverse racism at least not for me, this was about a crime being committed

[mzmolly]

137. Very interesting post Leilani.

Thanks for all the info.

[erpowers]

169. Oh Please!!!!!!!!!

I am not sure the photos are time dated in the way you are thinking. I think the defense attorney admitted at the end of the interview on NBC's Today show that the pictures did not have the time the pictures were taken on them. It seems that some type of test or something was supposedly run on the pictures. Explain to me why a girl who had been beaten and raped would go to a party and strip at the party. Explain to my why your "rich, white, elitist, Duke players" would allow this woman to strip for them. It just does not make sense to me. I do not think young guys who hire a stripper would want to look at a beaten up bruised stripper who happening to be bleeding. Why did someone not have the common sense to call 911 or the police. Yeah we hire a stripper she comes to the party in bad shape and we let her stay and leave with calling the police or anyone. What are these two calls? who made the calls? There are a number of players, were all of them on the speaker phone talking to these people? The idea that this case has reverse racism is just bogus. I guess we should go back to the days were when a girl reported a rape did nothing about it. These men went through nothing that anyone who was accused of rape has gone through.

[RawMaterials]

175. I know why i wouldn't call the police their was under age

drinking going on and they are athletes they didn't want to get suspended, but i guess that back fired on them a bit.

[erpowers]

176. That Bullshit

I believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. However, I do not think these kids were afarid of the police finding out their was underage drinking at the party. I think there were ways they could get around the police knowing there was underage drinking going on at the party. I do not think this means the men are guilty; however, I wonder why the defense keeps talking about these pictures, but refuses to release the pictures. One of the defense attorneys was just on the "Today Show" and mentioned the pictures, but as of yet I do not think the picture have been released. Why?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

186. If you think the photos were taken after the rape,

explain why a woman who had just been raped would wait around for bruises to start showing and then pose for photos at the rape house.

[erpowers]

230. No Need to Wait

That would lead to the question of why would a woman who was just raped go to a party and strip. Then why would a group of men who hired a stripper let a woman who is bruised, beaten, and bleeding strip for them. That does not make sense. About your question of waiting for bruises to show up if she were beaten she would not have had to wait for the bruises to show up. If a person is beaten bruises can show up right after the beating.

[FlaGranny]

217. "The pictures did not have the time

the pictures were taken on them." Digital photos ALWAYS have the date attached to the file. The date shows the exact date and time to the second, if the camera date and time have been correctly set. You don't see the date on the picture. No test needs to be run on the pictures. All you do is check the camera for the correct date/time and look at the file name to see when the photo was taken.

[chapel hill dem]

220. The rumor here in Chapel Hill is that the pictures were taken with

cell phone cameras (that is why they had two on hand) and the time/date (supplied by the cell tower) is used as part of the error correction algorithm in the file storage part of the opsys. They were "time stamped", but not with white letters in the corner of the picture. The cell phone mfg or the carrier needs to hook up the phone to a diagnostic computer to read the file and "recover" the date and time.

Just a rumor, but this is what the local techies are discussing.

FWIW...

[RawMaterials]

174. Well said

:headbang:
:yourock:

[LostinVA]

204. What phone calls exonerating the players? First I've heard of this

What DNA under the fingernails? The Defense attorney said there WAS no DNA on her anywhere? Tawna Brawley wasn't raped, this woman was raped. What reverse racism? No more so than OJ's investigation was racism: it's a thorough investigation.

You're as bad as the people you're castigating for jumping the gun.

[ugarte]

114. What I don't get...if she had her fingernails torn off...

wouldn't there be DNA under the fingernails? I haven't heard anything about that.

[KingFlorez]

115. They were fake fingernails

[northzax]

116. if you believe this result

then there was no DNA under her nails. including the broken ones found in the bathroom. it's not looking good for the prosecution.

[mzmolly]

135. Supposedly she grabbed the arm of a man who had her from behind

and the man had a long sleeved shirt on - thus the lack of DNA on the nails.

[Blue_Tires]

139. cross-posted my thoughts in the GD thread

for the sake of argument, let's put guilt/innocence aside for a second...

Unless some kind of video surfaces of the patrons at the party committing said crime, there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER any Duke student is going to swing for this...Anyone that truly believes that needs a refresher course on how rape accusations against athletic teams are handled on the college campus...

There are too many things working in their favor...For starters, the Duke kids (and their parents) are too rich and well connected and have too high a standing in their communities to allow this to progress to trial...Secondly, Duke University is "one of those schools where this isn't supposed to happen." Thirdly, the accuser is an outsider (even worse, a student from one of those 'black colleges')...

Granted, there are plenty of schools whose athletic programs have reputations for a more rowdy, 'anything-goes' partytime atmosphere (NOTE: I'm NOT trying to slander any possible alums from said schools) like Colorado, Miami, Florida St., Michigan St., Arizona St., etc etc...The point I'm trying to make is, these are schools that no one would raise an eyebrow if the incident occurred there, and even with that reputation, the vast majority of rape accusations at football schools and elsewhere are quietly swept under the rug without anyone finding out...Expect Duke to do the same thing, to protect their sterling reputation, of course...

I'm not trying to make light of the situation; it's just how things are handled at most universities, in my experience (my mother is also a longtime college administrator, so she's told me some stories over the years as well). If you really look, stuff like the team-stripper-party-getting-out-of-hand happens at least once a year at your local college; it's just that some schools are better at the cover-up than others....In the mid-90s, I went to college at a small Div. II school of 3,000 students (in a major city, I might add), and a girl accused five players from the basketball team of gangrape in a dorm room---Not only did her accusation garner ZERO media coverage, she clammed up altogether once the team and their friends smeared her reputation with the 'slut' branding all over the area...

For grad school, I went to a large school with a nationally known athletics program (see us every year on the road to the final four) One year one of the football players got way too drunk and sexually assaulted a player on the women's soccer team....soccer player went to her coach, her coach went to the athletic director, and the athletic director went to the football coach and told him to handle it...Want to guess what he did? He made the accused player run extra laps after practice as punishment, and that was it (and of course, the football coach at that time was a true 'famblee values' fundie that always quoted the bible)...It was only when the soccer player went to the school paper that any real outrage from the students started (and after all the back-and-forth hand wringing, nothing was really solved, and the player escaped any real punishment...)

these are just two stories i personally know about how some crimes against women are handled on campus when the accused play sports...I'm certain that other DUers here have their own....

[Mr_Spock]

144. fascinating...

this is a weird situation...

[Tight_rope]

155. I don't believe...it will come out later in life that someone tampered

with the evidence. Or that the person doing the testing was related, knew, or has some involvement somewhere with someone at the school or the players.

[superconnected]

190. dupe

posted below.

[Lex]

156. *** UPDATE *** / DA stilll plans to prosecute the case

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong said he plans to move forward with his case against three members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team, despite DNA results that do not match evidence collected from a woman who claims the athletes raped her.

"I intend on doing exactly what I've been doing the whole time," Nifong told a CBS News reporter Monday night who asked if he intended to move forward with the case. "If that's what you define as moving forward, then yes."

http://www.wral.com/news/8600601/detail.html

[Seen the light]

158. Whether they did or not, there's no case at this point

Unless there's some damning evidence we haven't seen yet.

[BrownOak]

164. Let me predict this

Nifong will take the case to the grand jury. If he's lucky, they'll go forward with it. Since they only hear evidence from the prosecution and not from the defense he has a chance to get the case to the a trial. If the grand jury decides otherwise he can always blame the grand jury.

Either way, Nifong really just wants this to drag out until after 5/2 when the primary elections are over. See, Nifong is in a hole with the election to begin with. He's running against two other candidates. Freda Black is the attorney who successfully prosecuted the Michael Peterson case - probably the highest profile murder case in Durham county over the last 40 years. Keith Bishop is a black candidate. If Nifong doesn't go forward with the case then he can kiss his chances goodbye. Without the black vote in Durham he doesn't stand a chance.

[LisaL]

223. What is he going to go forward with, I wonder.

She couldn't identify the three rapist. Is he going to charge all 46 with the alleged rape, or what?
He needs proof, and so far I see no proof that there was any rape at all, let alone who had done it.

[Marie26]

237. Sigh

Based on what evidence? Without the DNA, there's nothing to convict these suspects.

[aikoaiko]

170. CNN is finally reporting this too.

more to come I'm sure.

[AngryAmish]

181. What if a non-lacrosse player raped her?

I am still not sure if any DNA was found on the victim, but it could have been other non-tested guys who committed the crime. No one who ever said that only lacrosse players were there.

[BrownOak]

193. According to the press conference yesterday

there was no DNA evidence on the alleged victim to indicate she had had any sexual contact recently.

[LisaL]

222. The defense claims there is no DNA on her belonging to anyone.

[Exiled in America]

188. umm....condoms?

Is this really like earther shattering information? People are treating this like proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the players cannot possibly be suspects. That isn't true.

[LostinVA]

202. Several posters on both threads have said they were raped, the

rapist used a condom, and no DNA was present.

[LisaL]

208. You actually need the proof beyond the reasonable doubt that

players committed the rapes, not the other way around. So, I fail to see how this DA thinks he has any case at all at this point.

[bettyellen]

229. he is saying this doesn't exonerate the players, which is true.

it is much more common to NOT have dna evidence during a rape trial than it is to have it.
the prosecuter has always maintained there is more evidence, and we don't know what that is.
the defense attorney has leaked things that turn out to be untrue himself, like the timestamp on the photos. you have to wonder why he'd need to do that, or make it look like this dna thing closes the case when it may not mean much at all.

[LisaL]

221. According to the defense, there was no evidence of condom use

either. Basically, I have no clue how the DA thinks he is going to proceed with this case. What case, exactly. First of all, the woman can't identify who raped her. So, who are you going to charge? They have a choice of 46 people, and unless she made an ID, who are you going to charge? You can't charge all 46, obviously. And with no DNA, how are you going to say who out of 46 even committed this supposed rape, even if you believe there was a rape.

[gkhouston]

245. maybe they've got hair or fiber evidence?

Perhaps that takes longer to match? I don't think the DA's pursuing this just to get by in the primaries. Such a tactic would backfire on him in a big way come November. There must be a lot more going on here than we've been told.

[BrownOak]

248. There will be no backfire

There is no Republican candidate running for DA, the Dems are running unopposed in the election. I don't know enough about the local election laws to say if someone can enter the race after the primaries, but I would think they can't.

[superconnected]

191. I used to work at a police dept.

Okay, 2 police departments, a jail, and a court house.

The court house was the least fallible. The police depts were TOTALLY fallible, and the jail was mostly infallible as it had to answer to the courthouse but a lot personal disgression of some of people there(dang I don't remember the title but they were the ones that interviewed the inmates) was in use. What I know, is that if the mayor said anything the police dept did it. If these kids parents used any influence with the mayor, I fully believe the police department will enact the mayors wishes. He is the top person they answer to. At least that's how Seattle worked from 2000-2003.

So, I don't trust anything.

[geniph]

211. I'll wait to hear both sides of the case before I decide, myself

Obviously the defense attorneys are going to say there's no evidence implicating their clients and evidence exonerating them - let's see if the prosecution can present evidence that DOES implicate them and does NOT exonerate them.

That's how we decide cases in this country, not trial by press or trial by popular opinion.

[progressivebydesign]

226. until I hear this from the prosecution.. I'll take it as posturing.

I found it odd that suddenly the defense lawyers are throwing out all these things into the media about the case, and the media is treating it like gospel. It could be very much the case that she fabricated the story, or that they raped her, but I"m not going to take everything a DEFENSE attorney says as the truth.

[robcon]

228. This is what the prosecutor, Nifong, said:

"...Nifong told CBS News correspondent Trish Regan that he intends to proceed with the case, saying he won't be relying exclusively on DNA evidence, that there are a number of different things he'll be looking at in the case, and that if he files charges, he'll probably do it this week. ..."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/11/earlyshow/main1487668.shtml

Sounds to me like butt-covering before the case is dropped by the district attorney.

[Lex]

231. He also said . . .

District Attorney Mike Nifong hinted during a forum held at North Carolina Central University on Tuesday that prosecutors had other evidence and were waiting on the results of additional DNA tests.

Nifong has also said he doesn't necessarily need DNA evidence to prosecute.

"My conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke Hospital," Nifong said.

http://www.wral.com/news/8617662/detail.html


And he said . . .

DURHAM -- The Duke lacrosse team rape investigation will continue until all three attackers are identified, District Attorney Mike Nifong told an N.C. Central University audience Tuesday.

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-723119.html

[speedingbullet]

240. Rape Case

I'm speaking as a former prosecutor here. In my state we used to have a "corroboration rule" that said a jury can't convict unless there is independent evidence to back up her story. This was considered to be an archaic and unfair rule so it was eliminated. Now the state is allowed to present the testimony of the victim even if there is no other evidence. If the jury believes her they convict,if they have a reasonable doubt they acquit. If I was the prosecutor in this case and I believed this woman I would have a hard time telling her that I was dropping her case because there isn't enough evidence to make a jury believe her. I'd be inclined to let her have her day in court (if she was willing) and let the jury decide.

[LisaL]

241. So, who are you going to try? All forty six? It doesn't work that way.

She couldn't identify them. Maybe she identified one three weeks later.
So, who exactly are you going to take to trial even if you do believe her without any additional evidence that links anyone to this crime? Just randomly pick their names out of the hat?

[FredScuttle]

243. The prosecution holds the wild card

they have at least one cooperating witness from the party....likely the source of the "let's kill and skin strippers" e-mail.

[BrownOak]

244. Where did you see this?**

[FredScuttle]

247. replied to wrong post...see below

[FredScuttle]

246. Conjecture, at this point

My thought is that they must have a cooperative witness....someone on that psychopath's e-mail distribution list turned it over to the police

[BrownOak]

249. email lists and some new, telling evidence

There's considerable debate locally that the email may have been found by Duke and turned over to the police. Nobody really knows, but it's certainly possible.

However, if you buy into the assumption that the email was written in jest with a style that pays homage to the literary classic American Psycho (a really repulsive book made into a only slightly less repulsive movie) then it's possible that someone forwarded the email to someone outside of the original distribution list. You get an email that is shocking or (if you're twisted enough) funny and you forward it on to someone else. As an aside, one of the replies to that email mentions something along the lines of "I'll bring the Phil Collins music" which would almost certainly tie it to the movie - meaning that while disgusting it may not be quite as perverse as it appears on it's surface.

As for the new and possibly very telling evidence, I was thinking about this earlier today before the story came out and something just didn't seem to fit together between that 911 call and the image of the victim as being beaten. In the 911 call, the Kroger security guard only observed that the alleged victim was drunk, not that she was bruised. If the woman had been beaten to the degree that the media has made it appear, it seems somewhat odd that the security guard didn't notice it. I suppose that there's a chance that the guard only took a cursory look at the woman, but if she was close enough to observer her as drunk it would seem odd that she wouldn't notice these bruises.

I was also curious the description of the woman as being "non-responsive" which the security guard gave in that 911 call, especially since the victim, according to the story on ESPN yesterday, was hysterical when she was at the hospital later that evening. I suppose that could be a situation where she was in shock and only started to react at the hospital.

What really makes this all very intriguing is the new report which local station WTVD has released in a story on their website. The report contains quotes from the first officer who showed up in the parking lot of the Kroger's after the second 911 call. The relevant section is:

The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person. When asked whether the woman needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed out drunk."

Again, according to the officer, the victim appears to be fine and is not in distress. This corresponds to the security guard's observations also. So the question I would be asking is just how severe were those bruises if two people observed her and didn't notice them?

[FredScuttle]

250. How severe?

Severe enough for the professionals who examined her at the hospital to conclude that her injuries were consistent with a sexual assault. I doubt the officer or the security guard administered the rape kit, so I'll go by that.

[LisaL]

251. Consistent with sexual assault does not mean there was

sexual assault. I have no idea why people think that means she was raped, it does not.
It could also be consistent with other things, presumably.
I seriously think this case will turn out to be a hoax.

[BrownOak]

253. Perhaps I should have been more clear

Yes, it's doubtful that the security guard or the police officer administered a rape kit. However, given that the physical assault and the bruises on the alleged victim's face, arms, and legs are key components to her version of the events, the failure of both the security guard or the police officer to notice any bruising speaks to the credibility of her allegations. The warrant for the second search stated that the alleged victim testified she had been hit kicked and strangled by the suspects. Her father, in one of the two conflicting reports he's given to the local media, states that "her eyes and face were swollen, her arms were scratched, and she was complaining about her leg."

Yet despite all those descriptions which would paint the picture of someone with significant injuries, there were no such observations from both the officer or the security guard.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the SANE nurse's determination that the injuries were consistent with sexual trauma - I think we have to accept that without question. But that doesn't say that those injuries were the result of an actual rape or the Kobe "rough sex" defense or an even more plausible scenario that the injuries could have occurred at some point before the party. If the physical condition of the victim doesn't match what you would expect from her description of the physical assault doesn't it call into question the veracity of that part of her story and by extension the rest of the story as well?

[LisaL]

254. Add to that -if she is passed out drunk as described by the

police officer-is it really believable she was fighting the three attackers in her inebriated condition, and could describe the vicious attack in detail?
And just a short time later she is passed out in the car and they have to call police to get her out. I find her story not credible at this time.

[erpowers]

265. How Did He Know

How did this police officer know she was passed out because she was drunk? It is very possible that this police officer just decided to not give this case the attention it needed. It is just possible that this guy saw a black female and then decided with very little proof that she was drunk. I am not just trying to bring race into this it could just be that she was a female. There are many people, even in positions that are supposed to help people, who make conclusions just based on race and gender.

I believe in the idea of innocent until proven guilty; however, it seems that people are not looking at how the defense's story keeps changing. At first the women was so bruised that you could tell she had been assualted before the party. The defense claimed that pictures proved their case; however, they for some reason have not released those pictures even though they mention the pictures at every opportunity. Now that it seems that this police officer said that she (the supposed rape victim) did not need a medic the rape happened after the party and the girl was beaten after the party. Okay then how is it that she showed signs of being beaten before she came to the party.

Days ago when the defense was claiming that this girl came to the pary bruised, beaten, and bleeding I asked the question how is it that a group of guys who hired a stripper would allow her to come and strip at their party if she was bruised, beaten, and bleeding. At that point I said the story from the defense did not make sense. I also asked why the guys/people at the party did not call the police if the girl was bruised, beaten, and bleeding. Some on this post claimed that the guys/people did not call the police because there was underaged drinking at the party. I said not calling the police for that reason did not make sense in that there were ways to call the police and get them to take the girl without the police have to come in the house or discovering the underaged drinking.

I contend the defense should be forced to release the supposed pictures that are supposed to clear the players. If the pictures are such a clincher for clearing the players why has the defense not released the pictures. It seems that the defense keeps back tracking just as the prosecutor is said to be backing tracking. Once again I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but I think the defense is trying to get this girl to drop the case before it can go to trial.

[BrownOak]

267. It's easy to cite inconsistencies

if you misquote people to begin with.

Nowhere did the defense claim that this woman came to the party bleeding. What they said was that they had photos that showed the alleged victim had extensive cuts and bruises when she arrived. The difference here is that without actually seeing the photos it's impossible to say the degree of bruising. You can't say if those cuts were bleeding or if they were cuts from a few days ago. You can't say if the woman showed up looking like she had just been beaten or if she looked like someone who was bruised from an incident days earlier.

So if you say that the defense's story makes no sense and keeps changing it's only because you've started from a flawed position. In fact, the accounts of events following the escorts leaving the house would seem to discredit your theory about the implausibility of the guys allowing the stripper to perform. If she showed up to the house with bruises and cuts that appeared not to be recently inflicted there would be no reason to call the police, just as if her bruises and cuts did not appear to be recently inflicted then a police officer would not comment on them as being indicative of a recent assault. Or a security guard... or her father...

When you think about it, the only people to really notice the bruises and cuts to the degree as to question them that evening was the medical team that examined her after she had claimed to have been raped and beaten. So it's quite likely that the severity of her bruising, or the freshness (for lack of a better word) of those bruises, take a different meaning in the wake of her allegations.

In the end, the things that matter most here are if the photos actually exist and if those photos show bruising consistent with the photos take during the exam at the hospital. If those things turn out to be true, then coupled with the total lack of any DNA evidence, the observations from the security guard and the police officer, the false 911 call filed by the two dancers, and the uniform consistency of the player's statements, then there's no way one could reasonably assume that if this woman had been sexually assaulted it was at the hands of the players or anyone in that home that evening.

[erpowers]

272. Watched Interview

I watched the "Today Show" interview. During the interview the lawyer for the players said the girl was bleeding. I did not come here with flawed quotes.

[BrownOak]

274. Flawed quotes or a flawed memory - your choice

The interview with the player's attorney is still up on the Today website. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032633/ Under the Today Video and then Monday's Video) You can verify it for yourself.

The actual quote from the attorney is:

I did hear in fact in the earlier report that there were open wounds that were bleeding. That’s not true. The bleeding aspect of it is not correct, but there are open lacerations.

Sorry, but the defense never claimed that the alleged victim was bleeding.

[LostinVA]

259. Correct -- an ER doctor and ER nurse at Duke Hospital

gave the exam and administered the rape kit... rape injuries do not look like "injuries" from consensual sex, even "rough" sex...

[LisaL]

260. That is simply not true. If there was a test that could

definitively say that a woman was raped-the rape cases would have a much higher conviction rate. Furthermore, how are you going to determine who is responsible for her injuries? The nurse or the Dr. would not be able to give an exact time when those injuries occurred. And there is no DNA to link anyone to those injuries.

[BrownOak]

261. In case this wasn't clear from the message above

My point is not about the report from the SANE exam. I'm talking about the injuries that would have resulted from the non-sexual physical assault of kicking, hitting, and strangling.

[LostinVA]

258. I was thinking that -- someone turned the email over

because it was a printed copy of the message, NOT something seized off the computer.

[hexola]

242. MSNBC :: Rita :: expect 2 arrests next week

Something about another set of DNA and some other tests...

And - it seems there is an election for DA going on - so this case is highly politicized.

[Rockholm]

264. Innocent until proven guilty.

I wasn't there, know no one involved, live in another state. I have no judgement to make.

Why do the MSM outlets think that I care? Why are they taking sides?

Just like with Natalee Holloway, this is LOCAL news. Not national "breaking" news.

[ShortnFiery]

266. And this is important as a national news story? NOT! n/t

[Pavulon]

268. It fits the drama mold

I am sure everyone here knows news is entertainment now.

Template cases are played up. Race/Class related issues (rape,assault), minor political stories about a molehill.

I assure you that there have been dozens of rapes in cities large and small but no one cares to report it.

All the while the sheep have no idea of what is in committee and on the floor of the congress. News has become daytime talk. I could list on fingers the number of reliable sources for news.

News being unbiased factual information reported in proper context allowing the consumer to form an educated position.

It is a crying shame.

[ShortnFiery]

270. "It's a crying shame"

You put into words what I was thinking (and feeling).

This is one big distraction and the tawdry nature of the entire situation is just the sort of maneuver those in power love to keep the American sheeple titillated and effectively hypnotized.

I don't know what disappoints me more, the scum that continue to promote this as a NATIONAL news story or those that lap it up, to the detriment of watching our country devolve into a totalitarian state.

This is sick on so many levels ...

[Post]

271. Predatory Feminism at Duke?

Maybe you agree with this? Predatory feminism made me do it! http://postanapology.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-and-predatory-feminism.html#links

[oblivious]

273. That's some weird shit. Feminists gonna ruin the world.

...My message to men on college campuses everywhere: Stay away from feminists and strippers. The last thing you want to date is a girl who studies feminism. Be sure she believes in equal rights for men to be in the family. Make certain she rejects feminism before even asking her out on a date. Get to know her previous boyfriend to find out why they broke up. If she says he is a jerk but he isn’t, you probably have a feminist on your hands...

...It is far better to deal with feminism at the political level now and change your future than it is to wait for your own social and economic destruction later. Feminism has already destroyed over half the husbands and fathers in America. What you fail to do now is what you will get later.

complete text: http://newsbyus.com/more.php?id=3062_0_1_0_M

[BrownOak]

275. Double Trouble and The Worst Job in the World

So does this mean we should stay away from feminist strippers. I'll bet Mr. Usher would really be afraid of them.

BTW - clearly, the worst job in the world would have to be being Mrs. Usher.