Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies

[Scurrilous]

Many codes intended to protect gays from harassment are illegal, conservatives argue.

<snip>

"Ruth Malhotra went to court last month for the right to be intolerant.

Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.

Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all.

The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6204444.story?coll=la-story-footer

[killbotfactory]

1. ???

I assume they mean she can't put down others while on campus, right? If she want's to be a biggoted asshole while not on campus, I would expect they couldn't do anything about it.

[OKthatsIT]

36. We need to build them a big spaceship.

Put em on it and lite it!

[sofa king]

111. C. M. Kornbluth would be right with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

[hobbit709]

150. Actually, I'd rather leave

and leave them to deal with the mess here

[radfringe]

142. if this flies

does it mean we don't have to tolerate christians if we don't want to?

there are some businesses out there that require morning prayer for their employees - so if they hire someone who won't tolerate being exposed to this - can they still be fired?

[happyslug]

152. Yes, that is the at-Will employment Doctrine

Unless you can show some STATE interest, employers can require their employees to do as the employer wants the employee to do. Now if the state FORBIDs something, that is different, but only if the state forbids it, if the state is silent, then the employer can make any requirements of its employees the employer want.

The restrictions on employers on this is narrow, The Civil Rights Act as to race, sex, age, disability and Familial Status (i.e do you have children), these are also forbidden by the Federal Government (Some states and cities add Sexual orientation to the list but that is not universal at the present time). Military and Jury duty is another requirement employers MUST leave employees do even if the employer do not want the employees to do such Military or Jury Duty. Unionization efforts is also protected (but can be banned on the property of the Employer, if in the opinion of the employer ti interferes with work). They are a few more but none that protects an employee from being fired by his employer for not going to church every Sunday if that is part of the employment contract (Except an union contract forbidding such a requirement).

[sailingaway]

160. exactly, down here in Florida, you can also be hired or fired

due to your political party. Now, when i do a records search on someone, i get their voters registration. If i have 2 equally qualified candidates that are of different political parties, i can if it want, hire the dem. Its legal down here.

[greekspeak]

184. I am not suprised. I have only lived in RED states

and this is the order of the day in red states. Florida is not totally red. There are just a lot of wingnuts in the panhandle--enough to balance any sane voices from other parts of the state.

[spooky3]

165. Wrong, sorry. Religion is a category specifically named in Title VII of

the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which covers virtually all employers of 15+ employees, even in Florida. An employer cannot discriminate on the basis of religion. So, with very limited exceptions, an employer cannot LEGALLY fire an employee who refuses to go to church on Sunday.

Also, familial status (children or not) is NOT a protected category under Title VII of the CRA. States or localities may prohibit disc. on that basis, but it's not in the federal CRA.

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

[CAcyclist]

169. That's not the way I understand it

Religion and freedom from religion is also a civil right.

[Ikari Gendo]

172. Voluntary behavior

These people have NO IDEA of the size of chainsaw they are handing to their enemies. They say they want the right to discriminate based on "lifestyle choices".

Religion is a lifestyle choice.

Discrimination is a lifestyle choice.

Being an obnoxious ass is a lifestyle choice.

If they succeed in getting this passed, a lot of people are going to say "I'm not discriminating against you because of your religion. We just choose not to serve your kind of assholes here."

[happyslug]

181. And that is perfectly legal if it is done by a Private party,

The issue in this sub-thread was private vs. Government discrimination (Through the overall thread is about this lawsuit about Christians being discriminated against do to their religion's rejections of what the Government owned University considers "Norms"). Thus as to PRIVATE PARTIES such discrimination is perfectly legal.

The issue in this case is the traditional problem of the First Amendment, for it forbids NOT ONLY Congress endorsing a Religion but also any Governmental restrictions on Religions. The Lawsuit position is that the Decision of the University (a State Owned University NOT a Private University) to prohibit people from making comments in tolerates of Gays is a STATE ACTION AGAINST A RELIGION. Now I do not think this will go far, for the present US Supreme Court has ruled that if you adopt a neutral act as to religion that affects a religion, that is NOT an attack on that Religion (This was the Peyote Ruling, American Indians who used Peyote in their Religious ceremony could not claim exemption from general drug laws outlawing the use of Peyote).

The real issue what is the intent of the Ruling by the University? Was it to protect gays or punish Christians who attacks gays? If it is the later it is Illegal and unconstitutional, if it is the former it is legal and constitutional.

[happyslug]

180. We are talking about the Employment Contract

Unless you are employed by the Government (Federal, State or Local), your employer can impose any restriction he wants unless it is an illegal requirement. What is illegal? What I said above, which does NOT include "Freedom From Religion" or even "Freedom of Religion" (The later is covered by the First Amendment but only to actions of the Government NOT to private persons UNLESS the act violates a Civil Rights Act).

Now the Government must provide separation of Church and State (and thus can NOT require you to participate in a common pray) BUT private employers are under no such restriction (i.e. unless the act is an act expressly outlawed by the Civil Rights Acts, private employers can Impose such provisions). This can be seen in the Ruling involving pray in school, it was outlawed as to PUBLIC SCHOOLS for such schools are instruments of the State (i.e. Government which the First amendment applies to) but is perfectly legal in Private Schools (where the First amendment does NOT apply to).

Yes, the GOVERNMENT can do nothing to further a particular religion but your private employer can.

[CAcyclist]

187. Well, I would like to see the exact codes that state that

As a business owner, as I understand it, I cannot impose my religious beliefs on my employees. Or my atheist beliefs, since I have no religious beliefs. For instance, if it were legal for a private employer to require prayer, I could theoretically require my employees to disavow God every morning. Somehow, I think I'd get into trouble if I did that.

[spooky3]

193. You are correct--please see the link in my post above.

I don't know why the other poster keeps insisting otherwise--this particular issue is not ambiguous at all.

[Solon]

189. You are wrong on a few levels...

OK, first, employers must follow the Civil Rights act of 1964 as pertains to employee discrimination, and any pertinent state law that expands that act. As I'll quote from the Act itself:

SEC. 703. (a) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer--

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or

(2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

(b) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employment agency to fail or refuse to refer for employment, or otherwise to discriminate against, any individual because of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, or to classify or refer for employment any individual on the basis of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

This seems rather clear cut to me, I don't know what you think.

Also, just so you know, Private schools are NOT considered either employers or places of public accomodation in regards to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Most are affiliated with Churches, or funded through 501(c) organizations, which are SPECIFICALLY exempt from these provisions. Just an FYI.

[happyslug]

221. So they finally added Religion to the Civil Rights Acts.

The last big change in the Civil Rights Acts was when the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) was adopted under Bush Senior. That caused a HUGE level or new rules involving Civil Rights. Familial Status was already on the books by then (i.e you can NOT discriminate because a person has a child or children). I knew this was being discussed in the mid to late 1990s but since it is rare to have religious discrimination in the US I just did not follow it (Most people at that time were more concern about extending the Civil Rights Acts to Cover Sexual Preference than protecting Religion from Discrimination). I generally follow such things but I have to admit I missed (or forgot) about this change in the Civil Rights Acts.

Anyway the 15 person rule still stands, if the private employer has less than 15 employees he does NOT come under the Federal Civil Rights Acts (and thus people must depend on State Civil Rights Acts to cover such employees).

[CAcyclist]

190. Sounds logical, but it won't wash

Churches and the schools that churches set up, would ,of course be free to require prayer,etc, because they are tax-exempt religious institutions. But, I, as an employer, who is not an exempt religion, but a sole proprietorship, cannot use that reasoning to discriminate based on religion.

[spooky3]

192. Even some churches AS EMPLOYERS may be limited with

respect to requiring or not requiring some religious activities.

[CAcyclist]

219. Right - that,too

I forget the details, so I didn't want to add in the caveats. Thanks for backing me up!

[spooky3]

191. Please read my post above. You are wrong about the law.

There are six categories of exceptions to employment at will. The statutes are one of them. The statute in question is Title VII of the CRA of 1964, and it specifically provides that covered employers may not discriminate on the basis of religion. Private employers > 15 employees ARE covered. There are a few exceptions, e.g., a religious elementary school may be able to hire teachers only from the same religion.

I provided a link in my post above.

[Mr_Spock]

2. Infants

Christians are going to have to take a stand "as 5 year olds"...

What the Christ is wrong with these people? lol

[dethl]

3. What in the hell?

People WANT to be intolerant? Holy crap! I want what they're smoking...it seems to be really awesome stuff.

[durrrty libby]

21. I’m intolerant of their intolerance

Sometimes, I wonder if that makes me a hypocrite.

[unpossibles]

32. you're joking, right?

You seriously do not see the difference>? Hatred toward people based on gender, race, religion, and sexual orientation is not something that should be tolerated, in my opinion.

Let's put it another way: if you were walking home and saw a same-sex couple being beaten, would you rather defend them or help their attackers? Defending them (even if by calling 911) would show intolerance toward the attack. Heping the attackers (even if by ignoring the situation) shows intolerance toward the same-sex couple.

I am not blaming you, but this is a common attack put forth by the right to undermine us. They claim that if we do not ignore racism/homophobia/hatred, we are being hypocrites and intolerant.

I can tolerate anyone and everyone no matter thier opinion or state of being. I will not tolerate any attack on someone based on the victim's opinion or state of being.

[kestrel91316]

85. I betcha the thing these faux christians would do would be to

help the attackers, and then refer them to the Vatican for sainthood.

It's what Jesus would do, right?

[susanna]

196. Well said. n/t

[seaglass]

43. No, it just makes you civilized. n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

65. that's why "tolerance" is such a slippery slope

We need to have the moral clarity to oppose bullshit when we see it, not to blindly embrace everything in the name of tolerance.

[durrrty libby]

69. ""not to blindly embrace everything in the name of tolerance.""

Would you kndly give me some moaral clarity on that? haha

Seriously, I don't get what you are saying.

[Bill McBlueState]

76. here are two beliefs that shouldn't be tolerated:

1. Suicide bombers will be rewarded with eternal life in paradise.
2. Gays and lesbians should be treated as less than equal because an ancient book appears to say so.

Tolerating the first belief means a lot of innocent people are going to die. The second belief may find support among American church-goers, but its consequences can be just as repugnant as those of the first.

In a modern society, we have to condemn ideologies -- religious and otherwise -- that inspire murder. Advocating tolerance as the highest virtue makes it difficult to do that.

[durrrty libby]

86. Ok I see what you mean.

Actually, I have a problem with the word tolerate.
I hate that it's thrown around as a good thing.


Really, who wants to be tolerated? It’s not something any person would work to accomplish.

The appropriate word is acceptance.

[DuaneBidoux]

103. Beliefs aren't tolerated or not. They just are.

Whether it is from enlightened thought or ignorance beliefs are things that go on inside of someone's head. Now behavior? That is a different story entirely. I still see a difference between policies confining speech on private campuses, where anyone has the right not to attend and private funding guarantees certain property rights, and public ones, where all taxpayer's support the institution and thus speech can be restrictued in issues of hatred and intolerance (other than the classic fire in a crowded theatre).

[MADem]

124. FIRST, Do No Harm

Never mind the damn Golden Rule, if ya follow that Hippocratic maxim, you're ahead of the game, IMO. Would that everyone so did!

[manic expression]

123. That's the way it should be

never accept that which is unacceptable. Bigotry should never be tolerated.

[mondo joe]

218. Tolerance is a non issue. Conduct is.

I don't care if you hate me because I'm gay or not.

I care that rights are respected.

[smirkymonkey]

182. Like, don't these people have anything fucking BETTER to do?

Jeeze! You know, unhappy people are always looking for something to hate and rail against. Why doesn't this miserable, bitter Christian psycho get her ass over to Iraq pronto and do somthing useful instead of cooking up idiotic causes to distract her from the fact that she's a hopeless moran.

[annabanana]

4. I hope the "the rights of your fist end at the tip of my nose"

view of personal freedoms prevails in this climate... This has been the cry of proselytizers since the beginning of time..

It smacks of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater to me...

[Mr_Spock]

5. Yeah, then they will while about protection of their religious freedom

When they get their hateful faces punched in.

Unbelievable how hypocritical these cretins are...

[Kutjara]

6. I love this part:

"The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian.""

By "the right to be Christian" I assume he means the right to be a bigoted, intolerant, smug, self-satisfied, narrow-minded, ignorant and dogmatic. I haven't read the Bible since it was rammed down my throat at school, but I'm sure those were not among the key values that define a Christian. Nor are these "rights" (as far as I can tell) enshrined in the Constitution.

So from where exactly does the Good Reverend derive his claim to these rights?

[wakeme2008]

7. From the KKK books he reads

:grr:

IMHO, this is NOT a gay thing. These ppl are racist pure and simple.

[saigon68]

14. HEY Rev. Rick

1. Who would Jesus KILL ?

2. Who would Jesus DISEMBOWEL ?

3. Who would Jesus BURN at the STAKE ?

$. Who would Jesus TORTURE ?

[trogdor]

37. Well.

As Al Franken said, if you take out all the stuff about Jesus saying we should be tolerant toward our fellow man, love our neighbor, help the poor, etc., you'd have the perfect box to smuggle Rush Limbaugh's drugs in.

[Jade Fox]

56. They mean the right to......

to force others to "be Christian" as they define it, ie. if you're going to be gay you should be ashamed or endure their scorn. No one is stopping them from being Christians themselves.

[ekelly]

208. Unbeleivable

"The Rev. Rick Scarborough, a leading evangelical, frames the movement as the civil rights struggle of the 21st century. "Christians," he said, "are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian."


Um....they already have the "right to be christian".
It's in the Constitution.

I have said it before and I'll say it again:
Freedom Of Religion means that one is free to believe whatever one wants, attend the "church" of one's choice, keep a religious book in ones home, etc...

without being arrested, shot, tortured or otherwise persecuted.

Freedom Of Religion does NOT mean and was NEVER intended to imply that people of any faith or non-faith are free to dominate other citizens.

Freedom Of Religion was written into the constitution because of the situations people came from.
People came to this country from places where you could be taken from your bed at night and shot after your neighbor turned you in for practicing something other than the "approved religion".

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[salin]

8. So ironic... as if she (and others) are screaming:

"I wanna be as intolerant as Jesus..." without the appropriate reflective... "oh... er.... er... okay so I wanna be as intolerant as Pat Robertson". :eyes:

[Supersedeas]

156. for some, intolerance has become a Christian value

[ChrisK]

9. What's even more ironic is...

She is a woman and according to her faith,most women are seen as "below" men...wait till a man asks that he be allowed to treat her the way his faith says she should be treated.

Sadly,she sounds like she might be foolish enough to take it.

[immoderate]

84. Fundy women don't operate from a position of self esteem

--IMM

[Solly Mack]

10. "Think how marginalized racists are," said Baylor

Baylor is saying that by not allowing haters to discriminate the hater is being marginalized.

Now see, I was always of the thinking that Hate marginalized - that bigotry marginalized - that prejudice marginalized - that racism marginalized. That a major purpose behind engaging in racism/bigotry/discrimination was to marginalize, in some way, that which you hate. Always seemed obvious to me that racists/haters/sexists/bigots did the marginalizing.


But Baylor says No! - it's the not being able to hate people that marginalizes....

So to that way of thinking, it's the racist that is the victim... it's the hater that is the victim. To Baylor's thinking, when Christians aren't allowed to discriminate against LGBT community (deny them jobs, homes, marriage, kids - their very lives) then it's Christians who are being marginalized.

[n2doc]

51. Why not marginalize the Haters?

I agree with your points.And this is a great reason for keeping these policies in place- marginalizing Hatred is a GOOD thing. Make them stand out as the whackos and evil nutjobs they are.

[Solly Mack]

77. Exactly. Not accepting hate as a standard is a good thing

I can't stop people from hating - but I can for damn sure call them on it..and as a society, we can punish those who act on their hate.

Claiming your religion somehow allows you to discriminate against others is just plain bullshit.

The good of the society comes before your religion. And hate ain't good for society.

[Bill McBlueState]

67. he does sound rather disappointed

that racists are so marginalized.

[Solly Mack]

78. That's how it struck me

I thought it said a lot about how he really thinks....

[depakid]

11. That is a dangerous can of worms

for the fundies to be opening.

[GeorgeGist]

12. That fact that she IS speaking out against homosexuality...

proves that Georgia Tech hasn't infringed on her right to religious expression; except on Georgia Tech's property. As far as I am aware, she's free to educate herself elsewhere.

[shenmue]

13. What a bunch of jerks

Sue for the right to prevent a fellow human being from making a living?

What crap.

Bigotry rears its ugly head.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

15. Her classmates should hand out anti-Christian material.

If she complains about that, then she'll know what her own views are doing to people.

And why am I not surprised she's a member of the College Republicans?

[trogdor]

222. Fake Chick tracts.

Promoting everything from FSM-ism to Scientology to the Church of LSD (I just made that last one up, but the scientist who invented acid just turned 100 this year). See how long before they start crying.

[TalkingDog]

16. What happens when MY moral code says I can't tolerate intolerance?

I mean, obviously I'm more important than she is, right? I'm me, the most important person in the world and who is she? Some lowlife bigot.

I'm from the South and people who don't understand this culture think that because we are polite to people's face while truly loathing them, that makes us two-faced.

What they fail to comprehend is the very thing this woman doesn't get. You are always going to dislike someone or something. But as long as you at least maintain the appearance and actions of tolerance, then you are by definition tolerant. Tolerance doesn't mean you LOVE someone...it means you tolerate them.

It allows for people like me, who would love to give cement shoes to every frothing fundy I meet, to function in the current state of society.

The street goes both ways. Tolerate those you cannot tolerate and those who would not, will tolerate you.

It's called CIVILIZATION folks!!!

[KansDem]

64. We go into their churches and speak out...

To hell with "private property." Let's see how these "Christians" like it when their hide-aways are invaded with intolerant doubters asking the priest/ministers/pastors to justify their superstitions and myths.

"Private property?" Sure...brought with "public money" in the form of no taxes.

[KDLarsen]

166. Talk to Richard Dawkins about that

He went to a Mega-church in Utah (I think) and had a long debate with the local minister (or reverend or what you want to call him), and basically ripped the whole idea about Intelligent Design apart. The minister went nuts and threatened to have him arrested, his film destroyed etc.

Richard Dawkins (who is an atheist) has made two good documentaries regarding the idiocy & hypocrisy about Religion.

[Book Lover]

102. Exactly

This is why I disagree with those who say that we as a society should move away from tolerance and enforce acceptance. I am not interested in accepting bigotry as an American way of life. I am happy to tolerate it, though, for fear of what those who do not want to accept my way of life will do when forced to accept it (or not, as the case would more likely be).

[JNelson6563]

17. I'll sue to keep her religion outta my politics

Oy.

[bowens43]

18. Too bad for this fundie that the 1st Amendment

that protects her right to be intolerant also prohibits state schools from endorsing her religious view points.

Fundamentalist Christians are the single greatest threat to our Constitution and our Freedom.

[unpossibles]

33. we still have a 1st amendment?

I was thinking (sadly) that maybe the others were superseded by the 2nd lately.... <sarcasm> that's the only one that matters, right? </sarcasm>

[Gman]

19. Christians take a stand for the right to be an asshole jerk?s

Apparently this is what Jesus would do. How stupid of me.

[Lucy - Claire]

20. This is such bullshit.....

I am a Christian and I get so sick of these people screaming persecution just because they are asked to be tolerant.They are being asked to use good manners and not use a language of hate and educate themselves. This is the same kind of ignorance that I get when American's insist that all Muslims are what to kill us. Yet I buy my newspaper from a Muslim, sit next to a Muslim on the bus and eat take away curries, and I am still alive...!!!! Ignorance is so dangerous, most of the Christians I know are highly educated and very embarassed by the America Christian Right.
People like Rick Scarborough don't know the first thing about religious persecution or discrimination.He should try preaching to Christians in Afghanistan,Iran,China or parts of Nigeria, being stoned to death, imprisoned or tortured is persecution.(I have a Chinese priest) Not "Christians are going to have to take a stand for the right to be Christian" bull crap...Which is dishonest because nobody is telling Christians in America what they can and can't believe, accept other Christians. Maybe living in a society that is learning to accept gays and lesbians, they need to learn that attacking people for being gay is not glorifing,it is not Christ-like and if they want to be treated with respect as people that claim to love God, they have to treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves.
I get annoyed because people like Rick Scarborough make things so much harder than it need for Christians around the world that have to disassociate themselves, from these nutbags. In the grand scale of Christians in this world of all denominations, The Christian Right is a tidy minority but it makes the biggest noise and causes harm to the rest of us.

[greekspeak]

22. Put that in an editorial and smoke it!!!

:bounce:

[MARALE]

71. You are so right

And I am glad you said something. I makes me so mad when people pick and choose out of the Bible what they want to make an issue of, when they ignore exactly what Jesus was trying to teach people. I think there is so much hypocrisy from the religious right, I can't stand to go to church any more. I think Jesus felt the same way about the churches back in his times.

Welcome to DU!!!!

[no_hypocrisy]

23. Freedom to harrass, no.

Freedom of speech, yes.

Free to opine, criticize, comment, analyze, describe, propose, state, even pontificate.

But, no harassment and putting people in fear and anxiety about their safety, wellbeing, and right to be.

[rodeodance]

24. So, this young gal wants to diss gays in the workplace. WHOW- I can

not imagine if this ever goes forward. My gawd.

[BiggJawn]

25. Then I reserve the right to tell Xians they believe a delusional myth.

Fair enough, eh? they get to shove their buy-bulls in people's faces and tell them they're going to "hell", then I should be able to tell them they're full of shit.

[Ian David]

26. Okay... where do we enlist for the "War Against Christians"?

Should I walk into my local National Guard recruiter and ask?

[niallmac]

27. Vote "No" on The Golden Rule.n/t

[iamahaingttta]

28. I hope she wins her case...

...because I'm ready to persecute me some "Christians"!

I'm feeling pretty fucking intolerant myself right about now, and she wants to open the door. I say - Crucify 'em all! Feed 'em to the Lions! These fake "Christians" thrive on persecution? Let's give 'em what they want!

[BreweryYardRat]

195. Want a hand?

I can't stand false "Christians" either. Jesus may have been able to turn the other cheek to scum like these, but I can't.

Most hypocritical thing I've ever seen in my entire life was a "Christian" with a sign that read "God hates...Jews...racists...gays..." The sheer stupidity and hypocrisy there was mind-boggling. I spent ten minutes looking for a rock to throw at his head before I just gave up and screamed at him.

People like that drive me into a berserker fury. In the above example, if I'd been armed with anything (sword, Daneaxe, pistol, shotgun, whatever), I would have cut him and his followers down without a qualm. Their stupid Dark Age bigotry is abhorrent to me-the Bible is something you take with a grain of salt because it was written 3,000-2000 years ago! Times have changed, people!

And the sad thing is, they won't ever change. They're stuck in a parochial mindset-"anyone different than you is someone to hate." They don't have the mental capacity to realize their mistakes.

[Azathoth]

29. A civil rights movement for bigots and hatemongers

Truly these are the end times...:crazy:

Although, to be honest, I don't like the idea of prohibiting "hate speech" in universities. "Hate speech" is only hateful to people who don't like what is being said; most devout Christians would consider a lot of what is routinely said on DU "hate speech." The only speech that should be prohibited is speech which DIRECTLY incites and/or exhorts people to break the law.

[unpossibles]

34. remember the famouse speech...

"I have a nightmare"

[nuxvomica]

30. Christians really are under attack in this country

There are many Christians that are beaten up by groups of anti-Christians. Sometimes they are even brutally murdered for their Christianity, even though Christianity is not evil and it was not even their choice to be Christian -- they were born that way. And some young Christians, when they become aware of their Christianity, are driven to suicide, because they fear that our anti-Christian society, and maybe even their own families, won't accept them, and because they are made to feel that somehow their Christianity is bad. Did you know that some states don't allow Christians to marry or adopt? People even ascribe to Christians a secret agenda of indoctrination, which is just plain crazy. Christians don't want to turn other people into Christians. They just want to live peaceful, productive lives and let non-Christians do the same. Let's stop this hatred of Christians cuz at it's heart the issue is not really about the freedom of speech, it's about violence against the innocent.

[H3Dakota]

31. Well done! eom

[Raiden]

44. Great!!

That really points out the hypocrisy of the Religious Right!

[LilyLibber]

93. Brilliant!

This is very well-put, and spells things out very clearly for those hate-filled folks that can't seem to 'walk a mile in the moccasins' of people who TRULY deal with this type of oppression every day.

[Zenlitened]

35. Clearly, by their "reasoning" policies & laws protecting religious belief

... are illegal:

"What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor responds to such criticism angrily. He says he supports policies that protect people from discrimination based on race and gender. But he draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

Fact: So is religion. Religion is a lifestyle choice.

So do these people want to eliminate all mentions of "religion" from civil rights laws, campus and workplace tolerance policies, et cetera?

Or are they just nasty, evil-minded, hate-filled, horrible little bigots whose only "satisfaction" in life is to hurt people and disrupt communities... all the while pretending to be victims in need of -- wait for it -- Special Rights?

Hmmmm....

[VegasWolf]

41. Perfect!!! "Religion is a lifestyle choice." nt

[intheflow]

70. More to the point they'd understand...

Christianity is a lifestyle choice. If you say religion, they might misundertand because religion includes Judaism and Islam, for two examples. But since most fundamentalist, evangelical Christians believe in free will, then the choice of being Christian becomes very clear.

[VegasWolf]

90. No, I meant religion! Mankind has a long history of worshiping sky

people of all flavors. Most religions have some concept of free will, the concept is necessary in order to make the concept of a "hell" work. This then allows a religion to earn their 10% tithes by "saving" people from "hell."

[GOPFighter]

94. We have a winner!

"Or are they just nasty, evil-minded, hate-filled, horrible little bigots whose only "satisfaction" in life is to hurt people and disrupt communities... all the while pretending to be victims in need of -- wait for it -- Special Rights?"

Bingo!

[varun]

144. Exactly

We should remove religion from Non discrimination policies...it is not an inborn trait..it is acquired.

[CAcyclist]

220. Self-delete

Whoopsie - forgot to check who you were replying to.

[eppur_se_muova]

145. Actually, I'm not sure how many people believe being gay is a choice.

There's increasing medical evidence that people who are gay/lesbian are just born that way.

So the whole idea that Christianity is a "lifestyle choice" like sexuality is actually off the mark a bit...ONLY Christianity is a "lifestyle choice", sexuality is not. So it's egregiously unfair to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, and more unfair to claim religion is on the same footing. It's not. Your religion is a choice you have to justify, your sexuality is not.

[Zhade]

157. Exactly!

Thanks for pointing out that fact.

[geniph]

158. If he really believes being gay is a choice,

then, when, exactly, did he choose not to be?

Tell me, people, do you recall deciding one day whether or not you were going to be gay? Me either (of course, I'm bisexual, so that kind of confuses the issue, but never mind). You don't frigging CHOOSE. You ARE what you ARE. For pete's sake, suing for the right to discriminate against gays is like suing for the right to discriminate against people with green eyes, or people who are too tall, or people with more or less melanin in their epidermis than you have. It's asinine.

Choosing to be gay, anyway - what the hell is up with that idea? "Gee, I think I'd like to be part of a persecuted marginalized minority, that many people believe should be killed with impunity, discriminated against in employment, not allowed to marry, not allowed to adopt or keep their own children, etc. That sounds fun."

[Zenlitened]

197. Good point!

...ONLY Christianity is a "lifestyle choice", sexuality is not.

:hi:

For some, the Christian Taliban, it's obviously a very harmful lifestyle -- harmful to everyone around them.




(edit spelling)

[mondo joe]

38. She's free to be intolerant. No one is forcing her to attend that school.

[stepnw1f]

39. Waaaaaa... I Want to be a Bigot! (nt)

[Akoto]

40. What saddens me most about this is ...

Twenty-two years old (only one more than me), in the dawn of her life. She should be exploring the differences and possibilities of the world. Instead, she's already a closed-minded bigot.

[arwalden]

42. Well... You See... It's Like This....

[Zenlitened]

45. Beautiful!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[willows]

48. what is in your sig

Hey, what is that crab/fish icon in your siggy?
It has FSM in it.

[Zenlitened]

52. Seek, and ye shall find. Ask, and it shall be given you...

http://www.venganza.org/index.htm


:D

[genieroze]

110. lol

[SheepyMcSheepster]

54. nice cartoon. eom

[indigo32]

74. Yup

thats it exactly.

[Solly Mack]

81. It's exactly like that

I need that on a t-shirt.

[Zorra]

46. Here is a photo from the past of a group of these self defined,

intolerant christians. These folks believed they had the right to be intolerant also. Make no mistake, people like the ones described in the posted article will kill gay folks and other innocent people if they get the chance, just like the Nazi Christians in this photo did.

[Divine Discontent]

176. I couldn't agree MORE!

As a GAY Christian, I'm certain that a large percentage of the VOCAL Anti-gay crowd that blab on about their "Christian Right to express their faith", are doing anything BUT being a JESUS CHRIST - "CHRISTIAN", and would cheer on the burning of bodies of those who are gay. You are sooooo ON with that. And sadly, it's a harsh reality.

[BlueEyedSon]

47. Their slogan: "hate speech is free speech"

[Arkansas Granny]

49. And this statement says it all in a nutshell:

"They're trying to develop a persecution complex," said Jeremy Gunn, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.

They are trying to promote their "War on Christianity".

[superconnected]

59. Bingo!

They're devoloping their persecution complex so they can persecute others, though.

[TechBear_Seattle]

50. My religion says that black people are the spawn of Satan

So I can claim a religious right to burn crosses on people's lawns and lynch those who come off as "uppity," right?

Don't laugh, there are thousands of people in the United States who make exactly that claim. The KKK, World Church of the Creator and other hate groups have long claimed a religious excuse for their extreme bigotry. "Christians" who make the same claim with regards to homosexuals are solidly in that same company.

[Arkansas Granny]

62. Hmmmm. The name Fred Phelps comes to mind.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

53. Georgia Institute of Technology ... bans speech that puts down others

What a foolish policy. I'm with her.

I'm gay. Flame away.

[spooky3]

75. I'm sure the policy is much more precise than "puts down others."

GIT is not unique. All public universities grapple with or have resolved this issue. There is a huge body of precedent balancing the rights of students to engage in free speech at public universities (private universities can be more restrictive) versus the rights of students to be protected from illegal harassment, discrimination, and hate speech. Since both principles are in the Constitution and in statute, and both have limits, it's not "foolish" at all for GIT to prescribe rules that respect but limit the application of both principles where they may seem to conflict.

The key issue here seems to be the extent to which the target--homosexuality--is protected in the same sense as race, gender, etc.

It would have been nice if the LAT reporter had done a better job of finding out and sharing the facts rather than writing something inflammatory.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

125. Where...

does it say in the Constitution that I have a right to be protected from hate speech?

You said:
----
There is a huge body of precedent balancing the rights of students to engage in free speech at public universities (private universities can be more restrictive) versus the rights of students to be protected from illegal harassment, discrimination, and hate speech. Since both principles are in the Constitution and in statute, and both have limits,...
----

[mondo joe]

126. Where does it say in theConstitution that schools and

other entities can't establish codes of conduct?

[Kailassa]

143. Hate speech can kill.

Just ask any of 1000s of parents of children who have been driven to suicide by constant harassment, insults and hatred.

Humans are social animals, so the things said in our hearing will always have some effect on us, however strong we learn to be. Any institution has some responsibility to provide a safe environment for those in it, and that means they cannot let harassment get too out of hand.

[spooky3]

162. Try reading all the cases interpreting the 14th Amendment.

Here's a summary to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights

Note also that statutes (such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964) are relevant.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

194. Try reading all the cases?

Gee, that might take a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

I think it's a stretch to interpret

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

to mean that I have some imaginary right to be protected from hate speech.

Nat Hentoff was right. The cure for free speech is more free speech.

Edited to add:

I've been on the receiving end of it, and I didn't like it one bit. The answer is to give it right back.

[Kailassa]

224. When it's a mob of school-kids against an isolated one,

"giving it right back" achieves little.

And when that isolated kid is already having to contend with the fact that they are so different from the others, causing self esteem problems and depriving them of a role model, harassment can easily drive a kid to suicide.

I'm sorry that being on the receiving end of hate speech taught you so little that you think kids in schools should continue to be harassed in this manner.

I was too, and I hate the fact that other kids are being put through what I went through.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

234. I hardly need to be reminded.

I got out of high school years ago, and ther memories are still painful. There was no Internet when I was in high school. I was absolutely, one hundred percent alone, totally isolated. I did not socialize at all. No clubs, no groups, no activities, period. Look; it was no fun for me. But:

I don't see that you can prohibit "hate speech," because what some people consider hate speech, others do not. We're going to end up with the government determining which speech is acceptable and which speech is not. In that case, the cure will be worse than the disease.

I hope that acceptance becomes the norm. I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. I am in Virginia, where the legislature just passed a proposed amendment to Virginia's Bill of Rights, originally written by George Mason.* Folks here love to idolize the basketball team that plays for George Mason University, but once that's done, they can go about undoing George Mason's words.

Wikipedia entry for George Mason

I'd like the name-calling to stop too; just not with legislation. Every time I pick up the paper and read about a suicide of a high school student, the first thing I suspect is that trouble dealing with orientation is the reason. I'm thinking of one right now, where the father is one of those big "defense of marriage" types. I have no evidence, just a hunch.

Best wishes, really.

*What that means it that there is a proposed change to the wording of Virginia's Bill of Rights, to the effect that same-sex marriages that have happened out of Virginia will not be recognized within Virginia. The wording is so broad that it can be interpreted to prohibit a wide swath of contracts entered into by gay people. The change will be on the ballot in November. Recently elected Governor Tim Kaine has said he will vote against it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

55. But notice if any of us show intolerance to her and her religion, she

is protected by the Constitution, but we are not.

Something is amiss.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

57. You have the right to be Christian

But you also have the right to keep your fuckin' bigot non-Christian mouth shut.

[superconnected]

58. The difference between fundies and everyone else

hate hate hate

here they are again, in the news, seething like mad pitbulls.

Good thing Jesus is dead. The really would have to kill him again for not going for this.

[Ilsa]

60. Let her get her degree at fricking Liberty College if that's the way

she feels. She's trying to impose her values on others. Screw her. Maybe she'd feel differently if someone was in her face for being a fundie.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Perhaps we should start feeding these "Christians" to the lions

and hope the lions don't die of indigestion.

[Bill McBlueState]

63. "lifestyle choice"

Christian activist Gregory S. Baylor ... draws a distinction that infuriates gay rights activists when he argues that sexual orientation is different — a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait.

Well, evangelical Christianity is also a lifestyle choice. Can we discriminate against that? It's screwing us up a lot more than whatever Adam and Steve might do behind their bedroom door.

[xchrom]

66. these anti-christians aren't kidding -- for them it really is a war.

[durrrty libby]

73. Last week Jon Stewart had a skit about a racist complaining

that no one understood his people.

Seriously funny and a must see. The clip might be found a the comedy central site.

[FVZA_Colonel]

141. Here it is.

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml


Click on "Racist Like Me." It's great.

[knitter4democracy]

68. I'm sick and tired of whiny Christians!!!

If they think it's so hard to be Christian, they should travel a bit and talk with Christians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and China, just to name a few.

I'm so sick of this ploy. Hating our neighbors is not at all a part of our faith. Hate speech against those Jesus died for is not Christian, and they've lost sight of that. It's just infuriating.

[HuffleClaw]

72. what a scary development

i'd like to think the courts would agree with them, but with this administration who knows? bushco. exempted those faith-based funding recipients from anti-discriminatory hiring practices iirc. i suppose someone could claim its ok for them to not hire on the basis of RACE because of their 'religion' too. or eye colour for that matter.

[TrogL]

79. If you can't control your behaviour, you don't belong in the workplace

[David__77]

80. Yeah, they said this about race in the 60's too.

Some Christians' theology demands they be racist. Is that to be protected and coddled? No. Let them move to some compound in Idaho, or preferably leave this country.

[Sinti]

112. Please not Idaho

Just got here, there are enough crazies here, pick another country or deserted island!

[Miss Chybil]

82. Their "rights" end at my nose. Period. nt

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wise Doubter]

87. Pretty scary stuff, coming from people who worship...

a un-married (supposedly....totally non jewish tradition)jewish man who hung around 12 men.


anyone seen BrokeBack Mountain ?

It gets pretty lonely in the wilderness AND the desert

[greekspeak]

92. You forgot the misrepresentation of what the last supper looked like

As times change, art changes with it. Those lovely pictures of the last supper, with the white table cloth and all the men sitting in dining room chairs? Malarchy. At the last supper (read accounts of it in the Bible-esp. John) Jesus and the disciples reclined on couches and ate. And gasp they TOUCHED each other when it was going on--to be specific, the "disciple whom Jesus loved". HEAVENS TO MERGATROID. Sounds like an orgy to me.

[Wise Doubter]

88. Didn`t they get the memo about the new Duo gospels found??

The gospels of Neil and Bob ?? :9

[Alpharetta]

89. I see a bright future for her

She adeptly uses the Bible and manipulates political machinery. She's president of her university's Young Republican group. She visits national rallies. She's funded by larger organizations. She quotes Malkin and Schlafly.

I am sure she'll be taken care of after graduation. Some kind of political appointment.

Congrats. She'll be quite the ambassador for Georgia Tech.

[greekspeak]

91. "You are persecuting us because we cannot persecute fags and dykes"

That is the issue here. Fundamentalist garbage like this use the victim role to the hilt. How many American Fundamentalist Christians in America have been tied to fences in the freezing cold to die miserable deaths? How many have been dragged to death behind trucks? Lynched? Beaten to bloody pulps? Fire hosed and beaten by police. These low life scum don't know how good they have it. "Persecution" is: not getting to persecute those you HATE, not being allowed to coerce prayer in the classroom of public institutions, not getting to have your holidays be set on pedistals above all others, not getting to own the government (though close). My how HORRIBLE those poor victims are.

[PublicWrath]

121. It is worth noting that the Texas GOP platform urges the repeal of

the Hate Crimes Law.

[greekspeak]

183. Suprises me this does not

This is the crap de jour that the right serves up every day. War on Christians. War on Christians. The drum beat reverberates in my ears like some crappy telemercial run for the newest snake oil. These people hate. Hate to the cores of their beings. They cannot stand for someone other than themselves to be free. They hide behind Jesus and the Bible. And it contradicts both.

[LilyLibber]

95. This just in...

from the Department of the Obvious:

When they protest tolerance codes, they're labeled intolerant.

Um, well, if the tiara fits...

I just cannot wrap my brain around this. HOW can such hatred and bigotry and harassment be justified in the name of 'religious rights' with a straight face? I can't believe folks are buying this persecution crap. Someone's religion does NOT excuse them from basic civil behavior (in public, anyway - if you want to be a bigot privately, I can't stop you, but, as it has been stated here before, the rights of your fist end at my nose) when such behavior is the rule - this student entered into a social contract to obey the rules of this university when she chose to attend.

Besides, I just can NOT imagine that Jesus would be down with all the hatred and judgment and abuse.

An earnest question: I know that there are Bible verses that are loosely interpreted to condemn homosexuality (don't get me started on that one), but can anyone tell me which verse specifically states that the "Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality" (emphasis mine)? I'm honestly curious.

[Kailassa]

146. Not one word in the bible says to speak out against homosexuality.

But we are told to ...

- "love thy neighbour as thyself"

- "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

- "judge not that you be not judged"

- "in as much as you make life hell for the least of these, my gay and coloured children, you also make life hell for me."

- "rather than worry about the dust-speck in another's eye, pull that bloody great log of wood out of your own"

- "blessed are the meek, for although they may be reviled as queers, they shall inherit the Earth"


My paraprasing of Jesus words only means the passages have been translated 17 times now instead of 16. (or however many it is)

[brentspeak]

96. Finger-pointing Christians should have the decency

to not portray themselves as if they're speaking for Christians in general. In fact, I wish that they would call themselves something other than "Christians" to clear up any confusion between themselves and the normal Christians.

[VaYallaDawg]

138. Absolutely.

In fact I always suspect ulterior motivations about people who go around braying about what big Christians they are. I'd prefer to figure out for myself if I really believe they are.

[Dark]

97. I am deeply conflicted on this.

On the one hand, people should be free to express themselves and their opinions, no matter how stupid they are.

But on the other, people also have a right not to be harassed in America. Hmm. . .

But calling that the 'civil rights struggle of the 21st century' is idiotic. Gay rights are the civil rights of the 21st century.

Anywho, they should be allowed to, after submitting the proper documents, have a demonstration where they talk about the evils of gays. Then everyone can see how stupid they really are.

[GOPFighter]

98. I tend to think they should be allowed to be intolerant

Regardless of whether they are on campus or not, they still have first amendment rights and as long as they don't threaten violence, it seems improper to force anyone to be silent about what they believe. The school, on the other hand has every right to make it clear that they do not condone discrimination based on sexual orientation.

I think stifling bigotry leads to anger and violence. Bigots are usually their own worst enemies. They find some support among disaffectred, insecure, self-hating people, but their bigotry is greeted with scorn from most people.

But if we're going to allow these religious bigots the freedom to be intolerant, those who oppose their bigotry must also be allowed to the same freedom to be intolerant of Christians. They should be allowed to characterize Christians as bigots and intolerant and dangerous to society. Lets see how they like the tables turned on them.

[LilyLibber]

105. Point well taken...

I get what you're saying, and I suppose at my core I'm conflicted about the first amendment rights issue here, too. I am a staunch supporter of the 1st - I'm a broadcaster, after all. But something in me rebels against giving my tacit approval to the gross display of bigotry, hatred, harassment, judgment and aggressive intolerance, where it is expressly forbidden by the university's rules. I guess if she technically has the right to such behavior, it follows that she has the right to the punishment the university metes out under its existing laws.

On a strictly personal level, the whole thing is appalling to me.

[GOPFighter]

117. I need to think this one through a bit more

I've always felt a society is made stronger when it allows a sharp exchange of ideas, even those that are repugnant, as long as all sides are playing on a level playing field (African Americans in the 1960s and earlier didn't enjoy a level playing field so bigotry directed towards them was grossly unfair and exceptionally damaging). I'm with you though, intolerence makes my blood boil!

[mondo joe]

131. Please note, the college isn't "society".

It's an avenue no one is required to use. People pay for it and agree to certain terms.

No one who doesn't like the school policies has to go there.

And the gay students who attend have a right to not be harassed.

[GOPFighter]

140. What is "society"?

It's hard to define, but I think college is just as much "society" and any small town, any employees of a company, any retirement home, etc.

And what constitutes harassment? Where does a person's right to openly express their opinion or belief stop and harrassment begin? I don't know. I believe people who are racist, bigoted, and intolerant should have the right to express their opinion, even if it offends, but the rest of us also have the right to express our opinion that they are full of crap even if it offends the bigots. However, what if twenty, or a hundred, homophobes corner a single gay male and all state their opinion that gays are evil. This is where I have trouble with my stated belief because this is clearly wrong in my mind.

[pro_blue_guy]

99. Christians sue for right not to tolerate policies.....

......in other words, they want to break the law?

[mac56]

100. WWJH? = Who Would Jesus Harrass?

:eyes:

[Lorien]

101. If she were truly Christian then she wouldn't' be intolerant

somebody needs to read their bible. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

104. Does her Christian faith move her to rally against bigotry and hypocrisy?

I'm so sick of the faux war on christianity bullshit.

They are drumming the beat to get the dummies to the polls in 06. This Rovian election theme won't be about "gays" it will be about "the RIGHT to be a christian." :eyes: :puke:

We best get Christian liberal faces out in the media and invoke the name of God ad nauseam. Disagree if you must.

[Az_lefty]

106. Ah those poor persecuted fundies...

when will they ever rise up and claim their just place in society.
:sarcasm:
:puke:

[genieroze]

107. I only have this to say

Your rights end where my rights begin
and my rights end where your rights begin.

[Sapere aude]

108. It sounds a lot like the KKK in the South.

They wanted the right to violate the civil rights of others. This group wants the right to violate the civil rights of others.

No to both.

[DBoon]

109. And what happens when this becomes about Jews?

You know, the "christ killers"?

Maybe they will think they have a right not to be forced to associate with Jews, too.

[TriMetFan]

113. hm mm are they opening a can of worms????

I mean lets say that if they win can some one turn around and say it's o.k. to hate and hurt some one because they aren't Christian?:shrug:

[newspeak]

115. seems Hitler thought it was a right to be intolerant too

Since Hitler was also against homosexuality. Everyone has the right to be intolerant, including intolerant to Fundie Christians. One does not have to associate with said group that they have an intolerance to; however, one does not have the right to bully, antagonize or proselytize their intolerance of others.---nor HARM. Having a healthy debate is one thing--jamming your beliefs down one's throat is another.

[TriMetFan]

120. Well thats what I mean. If she wins will I have the right to

pick on these wacko right wing christians? I don't think that I should have to tolerate them at work, school or anywhere else. This is the can of worms that they are will to open, oh well.

[warrens]

114. Good, now we can target their churches every Sunday morning

And drown them out with hate speech. See how the motherfuckers like it.

[Arugula Latte]

207. Get a bullhorn. And an airhorn.

I'm so f@#$ing sick of these people ... :grr:

[FiveGoodMen]

116. Clearly it's a war OF Christians AGAINST the rest of us!

Like all of the Repukes, they're accusing us of starting a war when it's really them who are starting it. That's got to be what the rhetoric is all about: when anyone defends themselves against the attacks of these loons, they'll scream, "See? Told you...They're at war with us!"

Frankly, if there isn't a REAL war on Christians soon, our secular government is dead.

[Danieljay]

118. so let me get this straight (excuse the pun)..she's suing for her right to

harass?

Christ. What is with these people? Evangelism is one thing, but she is suing to, and I quote:

"force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment"

Unbelievable.

[baldguy]

119. Is Leviticus the ONLY book of the Bible these people read?

I guess they find nothing of value in the New Testament - you know, the part that's about Jesus?

[0rganism]

133. Heck, it's not even the whole book of Leviticus!

If the fundamentalists have a movement to prohibit the wearing of mixed fabrics, boycott the purveyors of shellfish, or keep women separated from the general population during their menses, I haven't heard anything about it.

[xchrom]

139. paul. paul had problems with folk like the ephesians

who tolerated homosexuality and presented serious competion to the early church -- therefore paul did not tolerate gay people.

[BattyDem]

122. How long before they substitute other groups for gay?

Such as black, female, Jewish, Muslim, hispanic, athiest, divorced, liberal, Democrat, etc.

If they get away with this, then ANYONE can demand the right to discriminate and claim "religious freedom" as the reason. All civil rights laws would become null and void.



On edit: Hey Fundies ... "freedom of religion" means that you are FREE to PRACTICE your religion without fear of persecution. It does NOT mean that you are free to ignore the rest of the Constitution and/or the laws of this country. Your "freedom" does not include hurting other people in any way. Some religions say you can murder your daughter to restore family honor because she lost her virginity before marriage. Should we allow that, too? :eyes:

[LilyLibber]

130. Excellent definition of "freedom of religion"

Your point is well made! :applause:

[mondo joe]

127. She has every freedom to not attend a school with these

policies.

[VTMechEngr]

128. I'm a Christian! She is Not!

Also, Christians do not act this way, "Christians" do.

Some quotes from the newspaper:

"Christians are fighting back in a case involving Every Nation Campus Ministries at California State University. Student members of the ministry on the Long Beach and San Diego campuses say their mission is to model a virtuous lifestyle for their peers. They will not accept as members gays, lesbians or anyone who considers homosexuality "a natural part of God's created order."

So even a Christian such as myself cannot join.

"The students say denying them recognition — and its attendant benefits, such as funding — violates their free-speech rights and discriminates against their conservative theology."

"She caused another stir with a letter to the gay activists who organized an event known as Coming Out Week in the fall of 2004. Malhotra sent the letter on behalf of the Georgia Tech College Republicans, which she chairs; she said several members of the executive board helped write it."

Isn't it obvious now? For the record, this is creating a hostile learning environment and should be Banned. I was thrown out a "Christian" Group my Junior year for my support of Gay rights movement. I joined a Presbyterian (USA) Ministry that was extremely liberal, and in the process, learned more about my religion than I ever had. We used our faith to care for homeless people, Glean for the Hungry, repaired a Black Baptist Church that was vandalized by racists, and stood up for the weak and persecuted. That's the Real Christianity!

[LilyLibber]

135. Cool.

Thanks for that, VTMechEngr. Nice counterpoint to the insanity in this article.

[Zhade]

151. Um, yes, she is ~ an intolerant one.

If she professes to being one, she is (unless you can read her mind to determine what she believes, which of course you can't).

Rather than pretending that Christians can only be good, why not accept that some are NOT good, and try to show them a better way?

Wouldn't your Jesus prefer that?

[Rocknrule]

129. "If we can't burn fags at the stake we're being persecuted!"

:argh:

[FiveGoodMen]

137. That's it. That's their attitude exactly!

[Brigid]

132. Liberty University

Why doesn't Malhotra just enroll at Liberty University?

[fshrink]

134. A flaming example of repressed homosexuality.

It is called "reaction-formation". And in her case it even seems to have reached the proportion of a psychotic decompensation. She would be happier just having a girlfriend.

[Megahurtz]

136. Sounds pretty "Christian" to me.

:eyes:

What a bunch of idiots!

[RubyDuby in GA]

147. Sadly, I thought you had to be pretty intelligent to get into GA Tech

This, of course, just reinforces my theory that they're all a bunch of idiots. Engineers, schmengineers.........

[DIKB]

148. Omg

"Think how marginalized racists are..."

These people don't like how homophobia is being equated to racism, and are fighting for racist's rights and for their own right to be intolerant assholes? Well wonders never cease?

[ForPeace]

149. Read the bible again ...

I don't remember Jesus speaking out against homosexuality. Hey bigoted Christians out there - try reading the New Testament - that's the one for Christians. It corrected some misconceptions in the Old Testament. Eye for an eye, Liviticus, Genesis and all that - so Old Testament. Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, help the poor - New Testament. Get it!

[ikojo]

154. The love thy neighbor stuff is in the "old" testament

as well...where do you think Jesus came up with it, after all he WAS Jewish and not out to found a new religion, but merely to challenge the Jewish authorities of the time...

[ForPeace]

161. Jesus was not out to found a new religion ?

So Christianity was an accident? Should his followers revert to Judaism? I was taught that where there are contradictions in the Testaments the New Testament overrides the Old - therefore a new religion for the followers of Christ or er "Christianity".

[Megahurtz]

229. Ha ha they'll never get it....

because the Fundie Faux Christians pick and choose Bible verses to fit their own agenda!

[Rex]

153. Intolerance has a long history with Christianity.

This comes as no surprise.

[Joanne98]

155. Rev Rick Scarborough in under investigation in Delay mess.

Delay gave World Vision money to lauder. He's going to prison. Let him bitch from there.

[geniph]

159. "Waah, they won't let us pick on brown people or uppity wimmen

anymore! Let's find another group that it's still okay to marginalize and discriminate against, so we can feel superior to SOMEONE!"

Colleges have the right to establish codes of conduct. She is free to go elsewhere if she dislikes the college's code. She has every right to be an ignorant bigot, and even to yap her gums about it elsewhere. But, just as I can't choose to create a hostile environment at work for anyone I don't like (bigoted fundy CONCINOs come to mind), neither can she choose to create a hostile environment at school and not be called on it.

Why not try a really radical idea - let's not call ANYONE names at school or in the workplace?! Why not keep our dislikes of others and our personal prejudices to ourselves in such places? Gee, now THERE's a concept.

:eyes:

[racaulk]

163. The most ironic quote in the entire article...

"If gays want to be tolerated, they should knock off the political propaganda," the letter said.

It seems to me that she is demanding tolerance for Christians by advancing her own political propaganda.

[skinner_7]

164. because that's the christian thing to do....

aren't they suppose to believe in loving your neighbor as you love yourself? what about thou shall not judge?


hmmm...I think the message has been lost along the way

[Donald Ian Rankin]

167. Does Georgia Tech receive state funding?

If so, I think that, reprehensible as her views are, unless she's actively inciting lawbreaking then they have no right to require her to refrain from expressing them; unpleasant as it may be to have to face it, the Constitution is clearly on her side: refusal of access to state resources should not be used to restrict freedom of speech.

If not, then while they have no right to forbid her from expressing those views, they're perfectly within their rights not to accept her as a student if she does.

[CAcyclist]

168. God Forbid We Be Intolerant of the Haters

So they would have the right to discriminate, be rude and be mean and call people names. Hmm, I've been called a lesbian before, even though I'm not - would they be allowed to call true lesbians lesbians but not be allowed to call heterosexuals lesbians? And when we call them bastards and mother-fuckers, are we protected or not?

[connecticut yankee]

170. And those are the people

who make up Bush's 38%.

In case you were wondering.

[matt819]

171. These people really are morons

First of all, tolerance is nothing more or less than common decency, which clearly is an alien concept to these people.

Next, don't these morans realize that this policy works in both directions. It constrains non-Christians and others from denigrating the beliefs and tenets and practices of their Christian classmates, whatever the denomination. Lift that constraint, boys and girls, and it's a free-for-all, and I suspect these idiots are unwilling to take the slings and arrows as much as they would like to fire them.

And, next, remove these policies, and the simple fact of the matter is that the more intelligent - read liberal - students will simply go elsewhere for their education, leaving in their wake an educational institution unable to pay its bills and with little or no credibility as an institution of higher learning.

[Eric J in MN]

173. She should be allowed to express her opinions during

classroom discussions, even if we disagree with them.

[Kailassa]

223. Don't you get the difference between stating a point of view,

which nobody has stopped her from doing, to harassing people, which she is currently not legally able to do at her school?

It's quite different to saying in class, "I want to kill all green people", as part of a discussion, and having a bunch of people telling the green person, "we want to kill you."

And, believe me, if they are so eager to base their "need for freedom to harass gays", then I'm not exaggerating to say they would like to see gays dead, because no part of the bible advocates harassing gays, but the modern-day translation of Leviticus does advocate death as a punishment for homosexual activities. It also bans the eating of shellfish and prawns, and advocates death for those who have sex with animals or who wear clothing made of a blend of fibres. And if you were a menstruating woman, or were short sighted, you were not allowed to attend church.

Punishments were pretty harsh in those days, and it is accepted these days by Christians that most of Leviticus is better forgotten, but some still want to pick out an isolated phrase from here and there to justify their own fears and hatreds.

[Rocknrule]

174. Next they'll be complaining that non-Christians have civil rights

[Divine Discontent]

175. GGGGGGRRRRR!!!

AS A GAY CHRISTIAN THIS FLIPPIN PISSES ME OFF! I have such a hard time not hating these people, like that woman! "defend their right to be Christian"..... Jesus didn't promote intolerance. Those asses.

[Mojambo]

177. Good Christians? Your ugly brothers and sisters are at it again.

Please smack them down already.

[Divine Discontent]

178. apparently I have to....

I'm trying to think if some wealthy pro gay or gay group or indv. would bankroll me so I could go on a "GET RID OF THE ANGER - AND EMBRACE CHRIST'S ALL LOVING SPIRIT" tour!

These people need smacked down and told they're acting too similar to nazis in their judgement.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

188. Thanks!

I just emailed her this thread. I hope she enjoys the comments.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

185. Here's her e-mail address! And she is asking people to write.

Aren't we lucky? Ms. Fascist freak wants your e-mails.

http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs1315/2713

[CAcyclist]

186. Here's a pertinent article on school verbal abuse

http://www.verbalabuse.com/12.shtml

"It is possible that many people of all ages perpetuate or tolerate a pattern of abusive behaviors simply because they do not realize that verbal abuse has different underlying dynamics than healthy processes of conflict resolution and problem solving. While strong emotions often surface during healthy conflict resolution, the underlying intent of both parties in non-abusive situations is to solve the problem while maintaining the dignity of both parties. On the other hand, in verbally-abusive situations, the intent of one party may be to solve the problem, while the intent of the other is to dominate and control. I believe that educating faculty and students on the underlying dynamics of verbal abuse will be a first step in reducing its frequency, first on our campuses, then, hopefully, in our community’s homes. To find out about training programs for your school see Trainings: Teachers and Students. If you have a story to tell of the devastating impact of verbal abuse in a school, please pass it on by email. Write [e-mail]"

This counselor is talking more about grade school, but really the problems are the same at this college level.

[Blue_Tires]

198. Whisky.Tango.Foxtrot

this HAS to be some kind of self-parody....if this girl was smart enough to get into GT but can't realize she's throwing a boomerang that coming right back at her, well i don't know what to say....

CERTAINLY her "religious beliefs" extend to things like no alcohol, no pre-marital sex and helping end wars....I fully expect this young crusader to personally throw ROTC and other military recruiters off campus, and to PERSONALLY check every dorm room each weekend for beer and any hanky-panky beyond second base....

[Frangible]

199. These people are an embarressment

Fundies are a minority of Christians and do not represent mainstream Christianity. Jesus specifically says not to judge or hate, or speak out, so for this woman to say her faith requires her to speak out is, in fact, a lie. Another thing which Jesus says not to do.

I don't know what religion these people follow, but it's not Christianity.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

200. Has anyone mentioned to these folks that

if they have a right to be intolerant of gays; everyone else has a right to be intolerant of fundies?

[NobleCynic]

201. Ugh...

If my religion required me to kill anyone who looked at me cockeyed, tar and feather police officers, and urinate on my neighbor's dog, the government would be perfectly correct in restricting my behaviors. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom of action. Where society has an interest in dividing the line is the question. These fundies mistakenly think that freedom of religion gives them the right to do anything they want instead of just thinking whatever they want.

I'd say it depends on how they're expressing themselves that judges whether or not they are crossing the line. Preaching and harassment can be a fine line.

[rd_kent]

202. Oh, I SO hope they win this fight. GO XTIANS!!!!

Because if they do, it will then be legal to discriminate with extreme predjudice, angaint any and all xtians. Then I can turn them away from my business, stop them from entering public buildings, protest them (loudly) right in front of thier church on sunday mornings. Oh yeah, baby. Here I come.
...Do they not know what they do?

[porkrind]

203. "Whaaa. It's not fair that we can't be unfair to others. Whaaa."

WTF?

[Fortunato]

204. Step back, look at both sides

I'd just like to say in general that it would be nice if this was an actual place to discuss the issue and understand opposing viewpoints, rather than a "rag on the other side" forum. No matter where I go, I just hear the same old thoughtless comments being passed around as profundities.

There are two fairly valid viewpoints butting heads here. The homosexual movement has cast their sexual preference as an issue of identity, then said that if you disagree with them or believe they're wrong, you're now attacking who they are -- i.e., discrimination.

Many people in the Christian movement believe that, while there are tendencies towards homosexual inclinations (they say it's partly inborn, partly choice to go with it), the lifestyle is unhealthy both physically and emotionally, and that this is why God (in their opinion) forbids it. They also feel as if they are being forced to do lip service to something they believe is unhealthy and wrong.

(To equate this with violent racism is ridiculous, btw. There are nuts out there who use someone's sexual preference as an excuse to hurt them. We're not talking about these nutcases, they're a vocal minority.)

How on earth can legislation ever "fix" this conflict? It can't. The demands being made are unreasonable and leave the currently losing side feeling victimized. The homosexual movement needs to stop lumping in most Christians with hatermonging racists; the Christian movement has to continue to learn how to treat people with respect even if they believe they're doing something wrong. There have been inequities in the past, but attitudes have been changing.

This is an interpersonal issue. Individuals must learn how to mature relate to people they disagree with. The continuing impersonal attempts to leverage legislative power over each other is a power play that will only blow up in our faces.

[supernova]

205. She's free to be displeased with the GLBT community

who are only fighting for the right to have housing, jobs, their kids, in a relatively safe environment and not, NOT, have to hid who they are. They want to be honest with the rest of us. They are not arguing for some sort of special privileges the rest of us do not also enjoy.

However, she is NOT free to set policy by those feelings or demand that her institution and government do so. She is also not free to get a pass of ridicule for demanding those things.

I'm a christian and I support GLBT rights.

[MissB]

206. You lost me at "homosexual movement".

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

210. Allow me to correct a few errors.

1. There is no homosexual "lifestyle".
2. What the school is doing isn't legislation - it has standards of conduct that one must agree to or choose another school.

[LilyLibber]

215. Agreed.

And allow me to address this statement -

"Many people in the Christian movement believe that, while there are tendencies towards homosexual inclinations (they say it's partly inborn, partly choice to go with it), the lifestyle is unhealthy both physically and emotionally, and that this is why God (in their opinion) forbids it."

Well, then she is free to not be gay. However, she is NOT free to "berate" OTHER students for being gay, under the standards of conduct required by the university, because her personal beliefs are not permitted to govern other people's lives.

"They also feel as if they are being forced to do lip service to something they believe is unhealthy and wrong."

I fail to see how anyone is forcing her to do 'lip service' of any kind. This implies that she is being asked to speak in favor of gay rights. She isn't.

And one quick point regarding this statement -

"The homosexual movement has cast their sexual preference as an issue of identity..."

As others have stated, "homosexual movement" is a misnomer here. As supernova said, the political issues here involve "the right to have housing, jobs, their kids, in a relatively safe environment and not, NOT, have to hide who they are. They want to be honest with the rest of us. They are not arguing for some sort of special privileges the rest of us do not also enjoy." Ergo, the issue is much larger than the grossly oversimplified statement made about casting sexual preference as an issue of identity. Matter of fact, most gay couples I know, just like most straight couples I know, would prefer that folks stay out of their sex lives. A person's sex life does not define him or her as a whole being.

[Kailassa]

225. There is nothing inherently unhealthy about being homosexual.

And nowhere does the bible state that being homosexual is bad for the health.

If Christianity genuinely considered this a health issue they would be picketing McDonalds, trying to get the sale of cigarettes banned, trying to reduce the amounts of fizzy drinks fed to toddlers.

But no, it's not about health, it's about drawing a group tightly together by giving them someone outside the group to focus their hatred at.

Hating people wearing polyester blends , or people who eat lobster, or people who go to church despite having a handicap would not go down too well, so they turn on homosexuals and women in need of abortions instead, confident that if they want to do those things, they can be done surreptitiously without blemishing their image.

If you want a mob to do your will, first teach them hatred, and then the joy of attacking as a team. People get addicted to letting the mob do their thinking for them, and then will do whatever you say.

[IndianaGreen]

231. What did Jesus say about gays and lesbians?

Do you have a chapter and verse that tells us what Jesus himself said about LGBTs?

I am trying to determine if you follow Jesus or you follow someone else.

[mac56]

209. What she doesn't see is that keeping the policies in place

would actually help her.

Think of it. When she rebels against the policies and receives the consequences, she becomes a martyr to the cause. These people are big on martyrdom.

Revoke the policies, she gets a few pats on the back, and she's forgotten.

Just my .02

[kay1864]

211. Her bio...what a surprise...

http://sab.iac.gatech.edu/members.html

Ruth Malhotra [e-mail]

SECRETARY
4th Year
Activities and Interests: President of Catalyst Ministries, Chair of College Republicans, Publicity Chair of Women's Leadership Conference, Secretary of Phi Alpha Delta Law Fraternity, Alpha Delta Chi Sorority, Student Alumni Association, The Swarm, International Affairs Student Organization, Sigma Iota Rho Honor Society.
Interests include US Politics, international travel, community service, Cuba Study Abroad.
Interning Fall 2004 with Bush-Cheney Campaign.

[kay1864]

213. Update

ETA: According to her Ga. Tech website, she'd "love to hear from you!"

Hey! My name is Ruth and I'm a 3rd year International Affairs, also double-minoring in Pre-Law and Spanish. I am from Atlanta, Georgia and have lived here all my life! Like most Tech students, classes take up the majority of my time, but I have lots of extra-curricular interests! On campus, I am involved with College Republicans, Alpha Delta Chi Sorority, and the Ivan Allen College Student Advisory Board. also love traveling all over, hanging out with friends, and doing random things (like shopping!) I love to talk about almost anything (especially politics, religion, and baseball), so I would love to hear from you!

[aden_nak]

212. I'm sure Ruth would support other people's right to bash her religion.

Or her race, for that matter. I mean, since she's in favor of the right to intolerance.



Right?

[tonekat]

214. She's 22? Truly (and sadly) a Young Farte!

How about removing protection for dingbats who feel compelled to hate others??

[kay1864]

216. From the LAT article, pg 2:

Malhotra said she had been reprimanded by college deans several times in the last few years for expressing conservative religious and political views. When she protested a campus production of "The Vagina Monologues" with a display condemning feminism, the administration asked her to paint over part of it.

She caused another stir with a letter to the gay activists who organized an event known as Coming Out Week in the fall of 2004. Malhotra sent the letter on behalf of the Georgia Tech College Republicans, which she chairs; she said several members of the executive board helped write it.

The letter referred to the campus gay rights group Pride Alliance as a "sex club … that can't even manage to be tasteful." It went on to say that it was "ludicrous" for Georgia Tech to help fund the Pride Alliance.

The letter berated students who come out publicly as gay, saying they subject others on campus to "a constant barrage of homosexuality."

"If gays want to be tolerated, they should knock off the political propaganda," the letter said.

The student activist who received the letter, Felix Hu, described it as "rude, unfair, presumptuous" — and disturbing enough that Pride Alliance forwarded it to a college administrator. Soon after, Malhotra said, she was called in to a dean's office. Students can be expelled for intolerant speech, but she said she was only reprimanded.

:eyes:

[HannibalBarca]

217. Will it then be

possible for Muslims to do the same i.e. sue that they will not tolerate scantily clad women or symbols of christianity....a pandora's box from a childish petulant little group that have forgotten the primary teachings of their reiligion.

[Kailassa]

226. Harassment = bullying. Bullying causes suicide.

It's simple, really.

People like this will not be satified until all the groups they hate have lost the right to breathe.

[Kailassa]

227. Ruth Malhotra is Black.

Yet she is allowing herself to be used by the sort of people who complain that racists are being marginalised.

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu:8888/uploads/cs1315/2713/RuthJessicaBush.jpg&imgrefurl=http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs1315/2713&h=1536&w=2048&sz=1002&tbnid=_DgNB_RMaIBu0M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=150&hl=en&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRuth%2BMalhotra%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

Either she's just a fool, or she's hoping to impress the "right" people and make a career in politics.

- or both.

[leftofthedial]

228. if they don't like it in our species

they should leave

maybe we could help them

[mitchum]

230. SHE'S ONE OF DAVID HOROWITZ'S HENCHWENCHES...

and has a history of filing grievances against the university

[Sarah Ibarruri]

232. Isn't David Horowitz that maladjusted Jewish guy, who just can't fit in?

The one that sold his soul to get paid publishing right wing bs for the GOP and pretends he's as religious as the equally religious criminal, Abramoff? They sound like twins to me.

[mitchum]

233. Absolutely...he's one of the original Neocon$

[arwalden]

235. Christians Are Special