Soldier's wife holds fundraisers for body armor for troops

[ECH1969]

A U-S soldier's wife is launching real and virtual bake sales to raise money to buy body armor for troops -- even though the government has promised to rush more protective gear to those on Iraq's front lines.

Tammara Rosenleaf's husband deployed from Fort Hood in December.

She said the Bake Sales for Body Armor fund-raiser also will provide medical supplies, communications equipment and other needed gear.

Rosenleaf hosts the first bake sale tomorrow in Montana. Beatriz Saldivar of Fort Worth -- whose nephew Daniel Torres was killed in Iraq a year ago -- said she plans to help organize one soon.

http://www.team4news.com/Global/story.asp?S=4486548&nav=0w0v

[magellan]

1. Disgraceful

...that people must resort to buying their loved ones critical protection and supplies.

I just hope she realizes that if her husband is wounded or killed wearing non-government-issued body armor, their disability/death benefits are reduced by the Pentagon.

[JuniperLea]

2. You know, if those guys are killed while wearing that armor...

they loose their death benefit insurance...



I'd give it up in a heartbeat to keep my son/daughter/husband/wife safer than that GI crap!

[Kagemusha]

5. The idea is to get them the better armor so they AREN'T killed.

Edit: Saw your last line just now. Just saying for everyone else, a lot of other people would give that up too.

[Bassic]

27. What? Why do they lose it? nt

[Panda1]

30. A Directive

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011606S.shtml
Army Orders Soldiers to Shed Dragon Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits
By Nathaniel R. Helms
Soldiers for the Truth

Saturday 14 January 2006
...
Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the US Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.

The soldiers asked for anonymity because they are concerned they will face retaliation for going public with the Army's apparently new directive. At the sources' requests DefenseWatch has also agreed not to reveal the unit at which the incident occurred for operational security reasons.
...

Currently nine US generals stationed in Afghanistan are reportedly wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin body armor, according to company spokesman Paul Chopra. Chopra, a retired Army chief warrant officer and 20+-year pilot in the famed 160th "Nightstalkers" Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), said his company was merely told the generals wanted to "evaluate" the body armor in a combat environment. Chopra said he did not know the names of the general officers wearing the Dragon Skin.

Pinnacle claims more than 3,000 soldiers and civilians stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan are wearing Dragon Skin body armor, Chopra said. Several months ago DefenseWatch began receiving anecdotal reports from individual soldiers that they were being forced to remove all non-issue gear while in theater, including Dragon Skin body armor, boots, and various kinds of non-issue ancillary equipment.
....

[Bassic]

31. So what, they want the soldiers to be as vulnerable as can be?

This makes no sense whatsoever!

[tammara at b4b]

40. again, this is not the armor that bake sales for body armor is doing

what we send meets or exceeds the specifications for the program that will refund soldiers for privately purchased armor. it is not dragon skinz. it is the ceramic plates that fit the flak vests. we do our homework.

[donheld]

47. Welcome to DU tammara at b4b

:hi:

[RamboLiberal]

3. I wish this piece in the Onion would come true

Defense Department Holds Bake Sale To Buy Bomber
September 18, 1996 | Issue 30•06

WASHINGTON, DC—In what was called "a great day" by the nation's educators, a cash-strapped Defense Department held a bake sale in the Pentagon courtyard yesterday to raise money for a new B-1 Bomber. "Gen. William A. Bratton told me we were about $220 million short for the brand-new bomber we all had our hearts set on, so I decided we should hold a big bake sale," said Col. Charles T. Lathrop, who, according to unnamed Pentagon insiders, made more than two dozen lemon cupcakes for the event. "So far, we've raised over 65 dollars." The department plans to follow up the sale with a car wash.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32726/print/

[rodeodance]

4. wonder what Rummy will say.

[leftchick]

6. I found a photo of Tammara at a war protest in Crawford...

Charlie Anderson, left, who served in Iraqi, wipes his eyes as Tammara Rosenleaf comforts him during a war protest, Wednesday, Nov. 23, 2005, in Crawford, Texas. Rosenleaf has launched real and virtual bake sales to raise money to buy body armor for U.S. troops, including her husband, who is serving in Iraq. The first bake sale is Saturday, Feb. 11, 2006, in Helena, Mont. (AP Photo/Matt Slocum)

[tammara at b4b]

16. prairie chapel 12

this photo of charlie and me was taken in november 2005, right before we were arrested for violation of the law that was passed to prevent free speech in the area around the bush compound in crawford. we were arrested with daniel ellsberg (pentagon papers), colonel ann wright (retired) and 8 others. we are still waiting for disposition of this case... no charges yet even filed.

you can find out more about this one through the website http://www.prairiechapel12.org/

freedom of speech and assembly exists in this country... even in a ditch...

[LynnTheDem]

7. Going on YEAR FOUR and bake sales for body armor.

And rightwingnuts think bush "supports the troops".

With support like bush's, our troops don't need foreign enemies.

[rainbow4321]

8. Also will buy medical supplies, communications equipment and other needs

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8FMHBL06.html


Last month, in the wake of a Pentagon study that found side armor could have saved dozens of U.S. lives in Iraq, the Army signed a $70 million emergency contract with a California-based company for ceramic body armor.

But not all soldiers will get it, and some troops currently have the wrong size armor, so the need still exists, said Tammara Rosenleaf, whose husband was deployed from Fort Hood in Central Texas in December. The Bake Sales for Body Armor fundraiser also will provide medical supplies, communications equipment and other needed gear, she said.

"When I realized my husband didn't have the side and deltoid body armor, the feeling of desperation to have it for him was overwhelming," said Rosenleaf, who recently moved back to her native Helena, Mont. "It occurred to me that no one loves their soldier any less than I love my husband, and people would do just about anything to get the armor to them."

<snip>

People also can sign up relatives and friends to receive body armor, which costs about $900 for each side and upper arm protectors per person.

[hootinholler]

9. 363 tons

That's what the cash, yes, cold hard cash, shipped to Iraq weighed. $12 Billion! Let's be generous and spend 6K per deployed combatant, that's 2 Million armored troops.

Congress has already earmarked money for better armor.

So, what's the fucking problem RUMSFAILED!? Uncle Dick didn't say yes when you said Mother May I?

-Hoot

I'd be tombstoned if I said what I really think.

[Vinca]

10. Maybe is there was a Bake Sale for Body Armor in every mall,

the chocolate chips would bring the zombies to life.

[tammara at b4b]

17. good idea

good idea- come on over to bake sales for body armor, and connect up with us. we can give you posters, sample press releases, sample letters to your elected officials inviting them to come... and you can hold one to. we have a paypal account where you can send the funds, and then... we will send more armor to the soldiers on the list... they sign up every day...

http://bakesalesforbodyarmor.org/

[midnight]

11. CBS -this Sunday is going to be asking about missing money.

It will be interesting to see if the largest amount of money taken from a US bank in New York and has no paper trail was taken for Home Land Security. I think I read it was, but should be interesting to hear this on t.v. Just think, the american government won't fund body army. What a mess.

[MaraJade]

12. Good thing she's doing this. . .

because if those soldiers don't own the body armor themselves and they somehow "lose" it, they will be forced to pay for it. . .

http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2006020623

[tammara at b4b]

18. we are working on that

we are working on this issue too! when a medic burns a armored vest as medical waste and proper paperwork is not filled out... the wounded soldier should not have to pay for it...

[4dsc]

13. Do troops want body armour?

This is a true story from a rightie who served in Iraq and he's claimed that body armour is heavy and bulky and most of our troops perferred not to wear it.. While it obvious he doesn't speak for all our troops, I wonder just how many troops actually perfer not to wear their body armour??

[Mandate My Ass]

15. Oh bullshit

I prefer not to stand on the sidewalk during a red light because it inhibits my freedom of motion. I would much rather take my chances and walk right into oncoming traffic and fucking die after being run over by multiple vehicles a hundred times my weight and travelling at high speed of velocity than wait for a green light.

:eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes::puke:

Am I missing something? Did IQs suddenly drop?

[tammara at b4b]

51. just gotta smile

just wanted to tell you that i really appreciate your perspective on this thing. thanks.

[tammara at b4b]

20. many

some of the soldiers don't want to wear it. bravo for them... but since when do soldiers get to decide what they will wear and not... some of them don't like the uniform... think they would look better in black... some hate the boots... tennis shoes are more comfortable and dry faster in the rainy season...

if soldiers had thier proper armor for 6 weeks before they left for iraq, rather than more than 6 weeks after they are there... maybe they would learn to live in it..

meanwhile... we don't force anyone to wear it... but if they want it... it should be theirs for the asking.

[pelsar]

25. lots

body armour is extremely heavy, hot, hard to move with, enter doors, get out vehicles etc...

[tammara at b4b]

14. i do my research

this is tammara from bake sales for body armor.

i do my research, as does my partner, charlie anderson. the armor we are buying meets the standards for ballistics, and has been purchased privately by a number of soldiers in iraq. there is a program by which soldiers buying this armor can be reimbursed, if they care to wade through the pentagon bs to get there.

the type of armor that the pentagon is rumored to reject, is dragon skinz, because its ballistics are not rated as high as the ceramic plates of bulletproofme.com or interceptor. what we are providing matches prices, ballistics and measurements for the protective vests. (i say rumored to reject, because they have not confirmed that they do. some soldiers have said that they have been told this)(by the way... i believe that the pentagon would say it and then not confirm it- because they lie)

we don't force the armor on any soldier. if they ask for it because they don't have it and want it, then we will get it for them.

it is a shame that our government spends all this money on a war, and yet our soldiers lack body armor, and laptop computers that medics need in the field.

come on over to the website and have a look around... still in its baby stages, but getting better every day...

http://bakesalesforbodyarmor.org/

and by the way... if my husband is killed in iraq, no amount of death benefits will ever make up for his loss... i've been with the gold star families for peace... families who have had loved ones killed in this war... no money can fix it. i want my husband in the best body armor money will buy, i want him sleeping in it... i want him to LEARN TO LIVE because he wears it...

[MadMaddie]

19. Tammara keep up the good work...

We want to get all of guys and gals back in one piece, every little bit helps.

:hi:

[MisterP]

21. welcome to DU!

[Mad_Dem_X]

33. Welcome, tammara!

Brava for all your dedication and hard work! :applause: :patriot:

[Auntie Bush]

22. C_SPAN interviewed some military on TV today and they said

every soldier already has all the latest new body armor.

So who is correct? :shrug: Who's lying? Me thinks the Military has something to hide...just like George and the Big Dick.

[Herkdrvr]

23. What I've noticed

I fly Herks in theater, and one of our main missions is moving troops in and out of the country. Some of the support folks (aircraft mechanics, etc) that won't leave a compound have the lighter (still kevlar) body armor, mostly for protection from mortar attacks. But all of the combat troops I've seen leave my airplane (Marine, Army or otherwise) are fully geared up and ready to go. In fact, I believe you can't be deployed to the theater in a combat capacity (ie, outside the heavily guarded bases) without Level IV body armor, which is basically the latest and greatest stuff.

[tammara at b4b]

24. what i have noticed- part 2

what i see is that my husband ended up in iraq with the wrong size sapi plates, and no side or deltoid armor. and he didn't get to iraq on a plane. he manned a 50 cal gun from kuwait to iraq, without the armor he should have had. what i also see is that there are 13 soldiers signed up on the bake sale web site to get armor. if they had it, why would they want more of it? i have great difficulty believing that soldiers would decide to use donated funds to buy stuff they did not need. i also know that any soldier can be tasked to be outside the forward operations base, at the whim of a commanding officer. no officer asks a soldier if he has all his body armor before sending him out. and no soldier refuses saying "sorry sir, can't go... don't have my armor, sir." finally, no family should have to bear any more worry and pain than they already do when they have a soldier deployed. if the soldier wants the armor... or the family wants it for them... there should be no question- they should have it. millions of dollars squandered, lost, misplaced and soldiers without body armor... what kind of BS is that?

[tammara at b4b]

52. coaching

don't forget that for press stuff from iraq, the soldiers that they just happen to interview have all been carefully coached... some many be brainwashed as well... :(

[TexasLawyer]

26. Check out Anysoldier.com

These guys need a lot of support from home that our government does not supply. Some of them use their flack jackets as pillows when they sleep at night. Why the Army can't supply our men and women in harm's way with pillows, sheets, sunscreen, phone cards, pens, paper, lip balm, towels that actually absorb, etc... is beyond me.

Some might need body armor, but that is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the things that these men and women need.



HINT-- send someone on AnySoldier.com a care package. It's easy!

Here's a sample posting from today's group of soldiers:


SPC Franck says:

I am representing the Signal platoon of 10 soldiers at Fob Cobra. We are made up of soldiers from the 327 infantry regiment of the 101 airborne based in TN, and soldiers from the 5 signal brigade in Gremany. We have no Px, so some items would really be apreciated.....

We have no laundry service, so laundry soap is at the top of our lists. We also would appreciate shampoo, and hand sanitizer or liquid soaps.

We have refrigerators in our rooms, but due to the length in time for mail to be delivered, we ask no perishables be sent. Small snacks like oreos and slim jims travel better, and come in handy on long missions. We do have access to microwaves.

Almost everybody could use wool boot socks. A pair of wool socks would surely make things easier for the soldiers.

As for requests, the chief request is dvd's, or forms of entertainment. Books, games, and magazines, anything would be a treasure here.

We require no feminine products as there are no women on this post, at this time.
Thank you and God bless+

[wordpix]

28. we spend $350 Bil on Iraq & soldiers have no laundry soap or wool

socks?

WTF???

As for entertainment, I am going to send a big package of my favorite mags, Mother Jones and the Progressive.

[1932]

29. maybe body armor manufacturers will contribute?

[tammara at b4b]

37. yes they are

the guys at bulletproofme.com are paying shipping on every order of body armor that bake sales for body armor does.

so yes, they are helping. it might not seem much, but when we get moving, it will be.

tammara

[1932]

41. Amazon ships for free too, and it's not an act of charity.

[tammara at b4b]

44. and your point is

your point is what? because if they didn't pay the shipping bake sales would and eventually, it would add up to another set of armor... so?- by definition, anyone who contributes to a 501c3 organization is donating... whether in dollars, or in in kind donations....

[leftofthedial]

32. this will void their military insurance

and cause them problems with medical care both while active and later from the VA

they are supposed to die or be maimed with honor, wearing the defective armor that the bush crime gang gives them.

[tammara at b4b]

38. where do you get ideas like this- see i do my research

the pentagon has a program that soldiers that buy armor from bulletproofme can be reimbursed with. does this sound like it voids their benefits? the bulletproofme armor meets the exact specifications that the military provides for buying armor... we bought the rifle plates for the deltoid armor, which makes what we bought, better than what the army gave soldiers...

there is a rumor that death benefits will not be paid for soldiers wearing a certain kind of armor. the pentagon has not confirmed or denied this. that is kevlar armor- what we buy is the ceramic plates...

the VA does what it can to deny military benefits regardless. better alive and whole, than worry about what the bleep the VA will do... don't get me started here.

[happydreams]

34. Most stupid goddamn thing I've read in a long time.

For shits sake why don't these people ask themselves why they have to do this then realize that this government is pathologically corrupt if it cannot supply this equipment. Then get out and protest this undeclared war!!

[happydreams]

36. In addition, by supplying the troops

you are simply enabling this mass murder!

[tammara at b4b]

42. see if you can wrap your head around this-

First I should state that I believe that that Bake Sales for Body Armor did a plainly good thing in two different ways. First, it provided armor to those who need it. Soldiers are human beings and they deserve the equipment necessary, not to "do the job" but to keep them alive. After I read just one article on the massive head and body injuries that soldiers have been returning with I realized that this effort was worthwhile. Secondly, the campaign, while non-political, highlights the negligence and carelessness of the Bush Administration, an administration that is privatizing warfare as quickly as it can, whilst cutting benefits to veterans. This campaign captures the imagination of a huge portion of the population that would otherwise hesitate to criticize the Bush administration in any way.

This leads me to what I think is a very important point. How do we as anti-war campaigners, and - speaking for myself - as advocates for immediate withdrawal deliver an anti-war message that is more widely heard and not dismissed as the usual diatribe from the "left"? One way to do so is to counteract the primary criticism of the anti-war movement: the fact that it doesn't support the troops. Substantive support for troops is not necessarily substantive support for war anymore more than an anti-war position is an anti-USA position. Simply, by showing support for troops, primarily by advocating for their safety (i.e. withdrawal) and for their care upon return (full and free access to education and healthcare) then we advance an uncompromising anti-war position while completely defusing the argument that we don't support the troops.

For what its worth, body armor is not quite analogous to tank armor. Body armor protects soldiers at all times, not just when they are on patrol. Non-combat soldiers still wear body armor. It protects a human being, and is not part of the physical weapon. And most importantly, sending body armor further delegitimizes the wartime administration while adding credibility to an anti-war voice. This is my primary reason for supporting the event - but I accept Tammara's point 100%, if I had a loved one in Iraq, you can bet I would be raising funds to send them body armor.

Every life is sacred and that argument stands. But personally and strategically, I think it is only useful to send body armor if you are also going to advance an anti-war message.

this post was written by my quaker friend in response to someone who advanced an argument which was much more articulate that yours... nonetheless, if you can think rather than just dream, perhaps you can follow the logic.

read my response to your other post.

[happydreams]

46. The road to oblivion is paved with good intentions

What you say still does not address the fact that YOU are supporting the war effort. That is undeniable no matter what the justification.

[tammara at b4b]

48. and you are doing what? do you drive? do you pay your taxes?

apparently you are not capable of separation of strands of thought. and you can't quote correctly either. it is the road to hell that is paved with good intentions. i'll try this one more time.

this is not about right and left, it is about right and wrong. it is wrong to send an 18 year boy to his death for his failure to act in a way that a 40 year old can see is wrong. it is criminal of the government not to protect him as well as it might and to ask the ultimate sacrifice (which is not his death, but the death of others, which he will carry to his grave) of him without cause. our soldiers are victims of the same stuff illness (capitalism) that plagues most americans, and they are ripped from the lower classes of our society, to do the dirty work of politicians and big business.

if you can not take the position of support for the warrior, and not the war, you are a huge liability to the movement to end this thing. many people who would otherwise support our cause, do not, because of the extreme views of the old vietnam war protesters, and people like you who can not see the forest for the trees. those in the past who called our soldiers baby killers, drove them into seclusion and shame to the point that they buried their hurt and despair and killed themselves. more vietnam vets died of alcohol, drugs, and homelessness than died in combat. and the vietnam war protests were not effective, until the vets got in front of them. we are blessed by having the vets for peace, iraq vets against the war, military families speak out, and the gold star families for peace in front of this movement right away. your position sounds to us like the old position.... for us it is simple... we want our families home, and we want that right now... and we will do everything we can to make that happen.... however, no matter our efforts at this time, we have yet to end it. but we will not let the consequences for being poor and wanting a better life, for being stupid and falling for the recruiters lies, for not knowing what they can not know at their age, be more than they have to be.

if you live and contribute to the american way of life, if you drive a car, own shoes made in foreign countries off the sweat and misery of the 3rd world, if you pay your taxes, if you consume food grown by agribusiness you are supporting the war effort. and i've yet to hear anything other than critical drivel from you- no word about what you do to stop this... only crap about the efforts of others.

i have taken as much time with this argument as i am able. i have a war to stop, and i will not debate this any further with you. i can see why the troops believe you do not support them. and without them... you will not stop this war.

[happydreams]

49. Oh, sorry about the nonquote misquote

Oblivion and hell are pretty close in meaning within the context. :eyes:


But you still have not responded to my point. That is: when you supply the equipment you facilitate the murder.

[tammara at b4b]

39. look before

have you done your research?

i am a member of military families speak out, a member of helena montana peace seekers and the counter recruitment group "just don't go". i am a supportor of the iraq vets against the war. i spent 26 days in a ditch in crawford texas this summer, and then the month of september as a national speaker on the bring them home now speaking tour. i marched with the iraq vets for peace and military families speak out september 24 in dc. i have spoken at eyes wide open at ithaca, new york, at numerous public schools, colleges, and other events. i will be on the "walking to new orleans which is a vets, military families and katrina victims march from mobile to new orleans march" from the 13th through the 19th of march. in november i was arrested outside the bush compound (in an action that i organized) for exercising my right to free speech, which makes me a member of the prairie chapel 12, along with daniel ellsberg, colonel ann wright(a 16 year diplomat that resigned on the eve of the iraq invasion)and charlie anderson of iraq vets against the war. i will be in crawford at easter, at the vets for peace in august in seattle, and in the ditch in crawford again in august. i spoke in austin texas at the 2000 dead memorial. i will be in the action in dc when we hit 3000 dead. i have spoken on democracy now, and countless radio programs. i have been interviewed by the london times while in crawford. my writing against the war has been published on counterpunch and bring it on blogs, as well as on blogs i don't even know. bake sales for body armor is under the tax free status of veterans for peace. my co-sponsor in the bake sale endeavor is charlie anderson- an iraq vet for peace. don't you think we might be capable of a bit of strategery (bush term) here?

my husband is serving in iraq, and he lacked body armor. he is not alone. and he is every bit as much a victim of this corrupt government as anyone else in this country is, maybe more, as it is his life on the line for bush lies. his life and the lives of the rest of these soldiers are more important to me than politics. the attitude you display here is what leads the moderates to the idea that you are not supporting our troops. if i can get them to the bake sale table, i might be able lead them to the conclusion that the government is not supporting the troops... then what? we change minds one at a time and save soldiers, one at a time.

so.. maybe look before you speak... i am protesting... and no one can be more clear about being against this invasion/occupation than i am. however, i have heart enough to know that boys of 18 do not deserve to die, while bush and cheney run to the bank with the millions they make off our troops blood. i get up every day with the full intention of stopping the war. i go to bed every night in fear for my husband and the other troops,and with the knowledge that for today, i have failed. but i get up every day and spend my day trying to stop the war. what are you doing?

[xxqqqzme]

43. Bravo and welcome

I was in crawford last August. I was there only 4 days. I am in awe that you were there 26 days!!! :patriot:

[tammara at b4b]

45. thanks for being there

well, i was the organizer of camp 1 down at the triangle, managing traffic, security, housing in the ditch- and part of the press conferences as a military familiy speaks out representative. i came from the vets for peace conference- and i was living in belton at the time, as my husband was at fort hood then. i'm not in texas anymore toto ;) because.... i didn't like it much there. however, will be back soon... unless of course george stops the war.

plus i worked on organizing the bring them home now tour- and we organized out of camp 2 where we had the internet.

thanks for having come there, and stayed at all. do you look at the alumni website? future activities are planned there.

[happydreams]

50. Why is it that I am the one that gets stuck with

having to remind people of the brutal facts? In this case an obvious one: Your husband is participating in the murder of Iraqis whether you like it or not.

[iraqvet]

54. Because you're the only one who doesn't get it.

Okay, I'm not sure why I am really dedicating any time to this, but here it goes. First of all, she answered your question several times in several ways and you didn't get it. You never answered hers, aside from attacking the people at the front of the movement (which can be defined as counter productive), what are you doing to stop the war?

War is wholesale slaughter, that means murder is being committed on both sides, but by leadership not by the combatants. Soldiers are not policy makers, they are policy enforcers who were sent somewhere to do horrible things by politicians who fooled them into thinking they were doing good. It has always been this way, the poor go to fight the rich's wars. The American soldiers fighting in Iraq are largely from our lower class and joined the military to get a better life. It is not a crime to want these things and with the militarization of our society, it is no surprise that many of our disadvantaged choose this path. A young lower class man or woman has to make a decisions about how to fund a college education or get skill training just to survive in American society. To you, the decision may appear easy, but most decisions are easy to make when other people have to make them. Hundreds of soldiers are now coming to the realization that this war, and perhaps all wars, are wrong. These individuals and their families are largely the ones challenging the militarization of our society. They are also the ones with first hand knowledge and credibility to speak to what has happened there.

Secondly, the waste of human life on either side will continue whether armor is sent or not. Hundreds of lives will be destroyed for each person who dies. Perhaps today I cannot figure out how to get my brothers and sisters home, but they should not have to die while the rest of us figure out how to do it. For you to assert that providing medical supplies and armor is equal to mass murder, only means that you want to see hundreds if not thousands more dead for no purpose. This makes as much sense as Bush's routine about how we must kill more people to honor the sacrifice of those who have been killed.

I believe in principle and morals, but this is the question we must ask ourselves right now: If I can save lives while building broad support to end the war, is it worth extending the olive branch even if it is uncomfortable. If you stick to your divisive tactics of not separating the victims of the war from the war itself, then you will prolong it. We cannot end this war without the support of the majority of Americans who are neither left wing or right wing, but too engrossed with their own lives to notice the suffering around them. These people will not be motivated by the plight of the Iraqis, but will notice when they are told that those fighting the war are not taken care of as most Americans expect. When they question that, they are open to to question more. In Vietnam it took nearly 60,000 dead before we reached that critical mass. How many of my brothers and sisters are you willing sacrifice before you will start the process or reconciling differences to save lives?

Finally, I would like to know, when did you serve in Iraq? What unit were you with and how many deaths on either side did you see or participate in? I ask this because if the answers are, never and none, then you have no authority to speak to the suffering over there. Those of us who were participants are the ones who have the credibility and the ability to speak with authority on this subject. Your little temper tantrum and caviler attitude only alienates us, un-welcomes us,ensures that few of us will speak out about this debacle and thus extends the war. Now if you are done wasting our time, the rest of us have a war to stop.
Peace,
C

[warsager]

55. HELLO IRAQVET AND TAMMARA

It is so wonderful to have you both here!!

:hi:

I think your efforts sound extremely well thought out, and well researched, and hopefully your efforts will not only bring safety to the troops out there, but will also bring more awareness to this horrible war, to people who, like you said, otherwise would never see it for what it is.

As far as happydreams, I am really shocked that this person is taking whatever stance he/she thinks she is taking against you. I am amazed at the patience that you both have extended to that person's comments.

Those insults are ridiculous. I am 100% anti-war and even ideologically anti-military. But I do live in the real world and understand that it is what it is. I also am aware that many politicians are not completely trustworthy, on both sides of the field, but NONE of that compares to the importance of each and every soldiers life, safety, and ability to get through this incredible tragedy with all their limbs attached and alive.

And the sickening reality is that the very government that sent these soldiers into this war for their own twisted reasons, have no regard for the soldiers lives, while they are at war or once they return home. I personally find the treatment of soldiers and war veterans to be one of the most tragic crimes of this government. And any way that these issues can touch every day Americans who are so removed from reality that they never even think about it, in a way that they can personally understand and relate to, the better.

So I would like to offer my unsolicited opinion to happydreams and tell you to get behind people that are actually doing something with their time to end this war and stop arguing against them because it is really idiotic.

[tammara at b4b]

56. thanks

ya- what you said.

but my patience does have its limits. i've really no more time to waste with someone as dense:dunce: as that. with nitwits like that, it takes twice the effort. no more time for it. working on stopping a war you know. thanks for the support.

t

[wicket]

35. kick

:kick:

[mvd]

53. Good for her

Someone who REALLY supports the troops!