Christian groups oppose bill to establish Bible course

[quaoar]

Welcome to Alabama, where Republicans hate the Bible.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AL_XGR_BIBLE_CLASS_ALOL-?SITE=ALMON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) -- A coalition of conservative and Christian organizations is opposing a bill that would authorize public school systems to offer an elective course in Bible literacy in grades 9-12.

The bill is sponsored by House Majority Leader Rep. Ken Guin, D-Carbon Hill, and supported by Speaker Seth Hammett, who argue the course would give students a firm, basic knowledge of the Bible.

But officials with the religious and conservative groups said at a news conference Wednesday the course is not needed because Alabama law and state Board of Education policy already allows teachers to teach the Bible as literature. Eric Johnston, a Birmingham lawyer representing the Southeast Law Institute, said the bill also specifies a specific textbook to be used in the course, which he said would violate the state process for selecting textbooks.

"It is clear this is frivolous and feel good election year legislation," said John Giles, president of the Christian Coalition of Alabama.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. A democrat is on board?

[quaoar]

5. Democrats are the chief sponsors

It's a strange gambit by Alabama Democrats to out-Christian the Christian Coalition.

[happyslug]

13. Alabama Pulling a Bismark?

In the 1870s the Socialist in Germany was expanding and demanding Social Reforms. Otto von Bismark (After uniting Germany under Prussia and Defeating the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1871) realized the Scaliest were going to use the demands for Social Reforms to get in power, so he preempted them by adopting Social Security and the other Social Program of the Left. He did this so he could control how far such social reforms would go AND to make sure his control of Germany's Foreign Policy was not Challenged. Thus was born the German Social Programs that survives to this day in Germany.

Sounds like the Alabama Democrats is going with the flow but in a way to direct it so it stays within the Constitution. The Supreme Court has NEVER said you can not teach the Bible in School (or even religion in School), but that you can not ADVOCATE one Religion (Generally Christianity) over other Religions (Which is why School Prays were baned, for the pray was almost always the Lord's Pray and that is deferent Christian in Substance and thus requiring that pray in School was clearly advocating Christianity and thus unconstitutional, but a class on the Bible, even if mandatory, that treats the Bibles and its Stories and they place in history is clearly constitutional).

[longship]

2. Aha! They just don't want the Bible taught unless...

it is taught as being literally true. The rapture rightists cannot stand it when light is shone on any subject, whether it be biology, physics, or the Bible. They want to keep everybody in the dark.

[Kber]

8. That was my first thought

I tood a great bible study course in college which 1) compared writing styles to other literature writen during the same historical periods and 2) compared the content to other religious movements of the period.

The underlying assumptions were that 1) the bible was written not by god or Moses, but by various people at various times and 2) that the content both influenced and was influenced by contemporary events.

Let's see them teach THAT in public schools.

KB

[Scooter24]

3. So the Christian coalition

opposes the bill that would ok school systems in Alabama to offer this course as an ELECTIVE because they would rather have the bible taught as literature to every student in their mandated English courses?

Sheesh. You give them an inch and they take a mile.

This excerpt is scary though:

"Rep. Jim Carns, R-Mountain Brook, and Sen. Hank Erwin, R-Montevallo, said they plan to offer resolutions in the House and Senate stating that it's currently constitutional to teach about the Bible and its influence on history and literature in public schools."

[CatholicEdHead]

39. More like a Democrat proposed this and not a Republican

They have to keep up that "Godless Democrat" myth.

[JVS]

4. This is a good example of why it is in the interests of all to separate...

church and state. The separation doesn't just benefit "secularists"

[On the Road]

6. I Think This is Badly Needed

There's horrible ignorance of the Bible these days by both believers and nonbelievers. It is very possible to teach the subject without discrediting it or proselytizing. It's a vanishing part of being liberally educated.

[Strong Atheist]

9. The bible should not be part of an education

in the public schools, except to mention in passing in history class.

[jmowreader]

36. I'm almost thinkin' this should be a core requirement

No, I'm not kidding. Teach the Bible to every student, but don't let people with an agenda teach it--in other words, no fundamentalist ministers need apply. There's a reason for this.

Ya got a gazillion fundies running around screaming about how this, that or the other is an offense to God.

What they're actually saying, in a LOT of those cases, is that it's really an offense to THEM, and they're using God's name to try to get you to stop doing this thing they hate.

And it really makes sense that they'd try to do this. Most people haven't read the Bible. Most CHRISTIANS haven't read the Bible--not just the fun parts about smiting and throwing rocks at homosexuals, but the whole book. The "you're offending God" crowd counts on this Biblical illiteracy. If something offends YOU, who gives a fuck? Get over it, man. But if something offends GOD...oh shit, we better stop doing this at once no matter how much we like it, because we might not get our Jerry Falwell Signature Series Passage to Heaven if God hates us.

Let's take a practical example from just the other day. Remember when Rev. Cheesehead sent up the message to the Lounge about the flavored massage oil she found at Wal-Mart? IIRC she even bought some. I as an atheist have no problem with her trying to add some spice to her married life with this product. Obviously she as an ordained minister doesn't have any problem with it, else she wouldn't have purchased the product. But mention it to some of the fundies we have around here...oh shit, man, they'd be waving the Bible in her face screaming about how she was offending God by using Sex For Pleasure.

Or go to my favorite fundamentalist website, http://www.capalert.com. This is the guy who runs a ministry dedicated to "letting you know what's in movies and television shows before your little ones see them." There ain't a movie or a television show made yet that God really approves of, at least according to this man. (He even complains about "A Charlie Brown Christmas," which is about the least offensive program that's ever been aired in the history of man.) Check out the analysis of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory." He downgrades the movie based on the repugnance of Augustus, Violet, Veruca and Mike. Well...the whole point of these children's repugnance was to show that repugnancy has consequences. Augustus was a glutton and gluttony got him in the end. Veruca's greed took her out of the picture. Violet was too obnoxious; that took care of her...and as for Mike, he was just a fucking asshole. I think God would consider this kind of a movie good: you do bad things, bad things happen to you. Not to the CAPAlert guy--God hates bad things no matter how they're presented.

Extended into politics, fucknuts like Falwell, Wildmon and Robertson love to use the Bible to press their twisted agendas onto the whole nation.

Now assume we required every student to learn the Bible. Would Biblical literacy magically turn nonbelievers into Christians? I don't think so. If Jesus doesn't come into your heart naturally, he's not going to come into it because someone made you read the Bible. It doesn't work like that. (Think back a couple of years to when Mel Gibson was making The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre. There was a story in the Entertainment section of the local paper about how Jews and Muslims working on his snuff film were just converting to Christianity right and left after seeing Jim Cavaziel getting the shit kicked out of him for days on end. I'm sorry, kids, but I call bullshit on that one. Maybe one or two did, but mass conversions? No.) However, universal Biblical literacy is Pat Robertson's worst nightmare: if people knew that God takes no position on the things Robertson says are offending God, eventually they'll come to the conclusion that maybe Robertson doesn't know what he's talking about, that it's all about Robertson and not about God.

The masses finding out that Robertson is a selfish bastard who doesn't want anyone doing or liking anything that pisses him off is Robertson's worst nightmare.

So yeah, bring on the Bible studies in school. It will be the fundies' downfall.

[Strong Atheist]

42. Absolutely not!

Then I demand that the FSM faith, and satanism be taught also! Keep your bible out of my classroom!

[Goblinmonger]

37. Don't forget literature

I talk about Bible symbolism a lot in my literature classes. It is by no means pushing the religion (ironically--though my students do not know--I am atheist), but so much of American (and other) literature relys on symbolism from the Bible. We read Old Man and the Sea which is ripe with it. Some classic Whitman poetry relies on it as well ("In a Camp..."). Again, ironically, neither Hemingway nor Whitman are what you would call model (or any type of) Christian.

[Bridget Burke]

7. There are 2 competing Bible Curricula......

The one the Conservative Christians are fighting is the less fundamentalist option. This article gives more detail:

www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051216/NEWS02/51216008

The Bible Literacy Project has produced a book that uses excerpts of differing translations of the Bible. It's been approved by representatives from most Christian denominations & some Jewish scholars, as well. (It's the one that was rejected.)

www.bibleliteracy.org/Site/PressRoom/Press20050922/Press051130Endorsements.htm

The Conservative Christians prefer the curriculum from National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools. (Per the article I posted.) Here's their website; check out the links.

www.bibleinschools.net/

The Texas Freedom Network had Dr Mark Chancey from Southern Methodist University critique the NCBCPS's text.

The NCBCPS curriculum goes beyond a study of the Bible as literature or a description of the importance of the Bible for beliefs and practices of religious groups. It, in fact, improperly endorses the Bible as the “Word of God.” It also attempts to persuade teachers and students to adopt views of the Bible that are common in some conservative Protestant circles but rejected by most scholars. While such views are certainly appropriate for individuals or religious groups, public schools should not present them as fact.

The curriculum almost exclusively reflects views held by certain conservative Protestant groups. The role of the Bible in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian thought receives little attention.

The curriculum depicts the United States as a historically Christian nation. It even erroneously implies that historians generally believe that the Bible, even more than the Constitution, is the nation’s “Founding Document” .

The text was also found to be full of factual errors, shoddy research & plagiarism.

www.tfn.org/religiousfreedom/biblecurriculum/execsummary/

I'm not sure that Public Schools need Bible courses at all. But, if they insist on offering them as electives, the rejected course is far superior to the other.

[Strong Atheist]

10. "I'm not sure that Public Schools need Bible courses at all"

I am sure. The bible SHOULD NOT be taught in public schools at all. Taught about, in history classes, but not taught, EVER.

[happyslug]

20. And you thus leave the Bible in the hands of the far-Right.

You may dismiss the Bible as in-relevant tales, but other people do not. The latter is the problem, by NOT exposing people to the Bible, the Bible becomes the Possessions of the Far-Right. Once the Bible is in their hand you have them mobilize people to "Protect" the Bible.

I compare the American policy since the 1950s with the European Policy in the same time period. American are more religious and higher percentage are Fundamentalist than in Europe, but America does NOT teach the Bible, but Europe does. They are more non-believers in Europe, even as they teach Religion in their Public Schools. America Does NOT teach Religion and we have a much larger set of Radical Far Right Religious Radicals.

The main reason for this is in Europe where Religion is taught in the Public Schools (Mostly commonly in Italy and Germany than the rest of the Continent) it is taught by moderate religious leaders who will inform their students of ALL of the interpretation of the Bible and its use through European and Bibi cal history. In the US most people learn of the the Bible from Far-Right Radicals that no European School would permit to teach religion in their schools.

Remember, one aspect of Culture is Religion (and religion does not need a belief in God, just a set of beliefs that one is to live by). The purpose of the Bible was to set forth a set of beliefs and how that belief evolved over the centuries. The main thrust of those beliefs in how does the members of a Society live with each other. Laws re-enforce Beliefs, Beliefs re-enforce the laws of a Society (Look at the idea of Separation of Church and State, it is NOT mentioned in the Bill of Rights but has become a almost universal belief among Americans that is reinforced by Supreme Court Decisions, which in turn re-enforce people's belief in the Separation of Church and State). In France, where the Catholic Church was disestablished in 1905 during a dispute with the Vatican, the Independence of the State from the Church has become Dogma of being French and thus the law and belief in this regard reinforce each other (This can be compared with Germany where the State Collects the fees for the Church when it collects the taxes for the state and these reinforce each other, the state collects the fees for the Church, people pay the fee for the state collects them. Please note in Germany you can opt out of paying the Church if you wish, thus paying the Church is NOT mandatory).

The point I was making is that belief and law tend to reinforce each other. When One fails the other shortly Follows (Look at Prohibition, you had a belief that Drinking was bad and then a law that it was bad, but when the law failed to stop the activity, the belief liquor was bad also died and with that death prohibition ended). One of Reason the War on Drugs has failed is that the BELIEF that Drugs are bad never really took hold, and with that lack of Belief, the ability of the law to regulate Drugs died (Through it has been a money maker for Police Departments for decades but that is a separate issue). Belief and Culture are closely related and always has been.

This brings me back to teaching the Bible in School. The Bible is part of our Culture, as much as the Super Bowl and Coca-Cola, yet receives less input in School than either. Shakespeare is taught in High School, yet the Bible stores has had more influence than Shakespeare (and to understand parts of Shakespeare you have to understand the Bible).

One of the best way to see the influence of the bible (Both good and bad) are two battles in 1863 fought by American Religious Leaders). In the Second Day of the Battle of Gettysburg the Mascot of a Georgia Unit was seen barking at both sides to STOP hurting each other, and kept running around and barking at everyone who was fighting. After the Battle the Union General in Command saw a bunch of Union Soldiers gathered around and seeing the dog one of the Soldier told him that the dog had licked the soldier before he died. The Union General responded that he had also seen the Dog that day, and order that the Dog received a Proper burial for he was the only true Christian on that Battle Field that day.

Compared to the action of another Reverend, Reverend John Chivington at Sand Creek where his men massacre helpless old men, women and children. Supposedly when asked about killing indians children he Supposedly said "Nits became lice".

For more on Sand Creek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_Massacre

[Strong Atheist]

21. Well, I am a teacher, and an atheist, and I am damn glad

the bible is not in public schools. Send your kids to private religious schools if you are that hot about it.

[quaoar]

25. I think his/her point was

that if the Bible is not taught to kids in public schools by people of moderate views, it will be taught to them by fundamentalists. Not teaching anything about the Bible creates a vacuum that the right-wingers are only too happy to fill.

[Strong Atheist]

26. We don't bring out Playboy's in school,

either. Some things have no place in a PUBLIC school, and the bible/koran/whatever DEFINITELY qualifies as one of those things.

if the Bible is not taught to kids in public schools

No, the point is it should not be TAUGHT at all in public school. It can be mentioned in history classes.

it will be taught to them by fundamentalists

Not if people like me can help it, because it wont be in PUBLIC schools AT ALL.

See the point?

[quaoar]

27. The fundies won't teach it in public school

They teach it in church. And the twisted view they teach never gets challenged anywhere else because it isn't taught anywhere else.

[Strong Atheist]

28. "They teach it in church"

Fine. That is where it belongs (that, and homes).

And the twisted view they teach never gets challenged

As long as it stays out of the schools, that is fine with me. Perfectly constitutional.

[quaoar]

30. OK

Go bury your head in the sand then.

[QC]

32. "Go bury your head in the sand then."

I'd recommend a nice, long soak instead.

[Strong Atheist]

34. Hmm. I work to keep religion out of public schools.

You advocate giving in to letting religion in the public schools. Who's the ostrich here? Hint: It ain't me, so ...

[TankLV]

38. Which is still NONE of our business - it still belongs in CHURCH!

Not a public funded classroom!

Want to debate that your god is better than his - do it in you own goddamned CHURCH!

[HockeyMom]

35. Very Ironic

in that I spent 12 years in Catholic School and we didn't "study the Bible." I think I spent more time in HS, studying OTHER RELIGIONS.

Guess if you want your kids to learn the Bible, they will have to go to PUBLIC SCHOOL now, not Catholic.

Ludicrous.

[AnneD]

11. So the infighting has begun....

It would only be a matter of time before there would be a fight over which religion would be the 'Right' religion. This is the very reason the founding fathers tried to keep church and state separate.

[BiggJawn]

12. Must not be THEIR (the CC of A) textbook.

Bible Literacy? What is the Xian Coalition afraid of?
That Alabama school kiddies will learn to look at that book of stories and go "WTF???"?

Or do they want the school boards to buy only THEIR textbook on the subject.

[Book Lover]

14. I will teach my children about the Bible, thank you

The multitude of translations, the historical context and great span of time over which the books were written, its difference from the Torah and Qur'an, the books that the Council of Nicea would not include, the Dead Sea Scroll writings, and everything else I can't think of right now. How much of *that* is in their curriculum?

Yet one more reason to homeschool.

[LeftyMom]

18. exactly

Looking at which bible stories derive from earlier myths would be interesting too.

[yorkiemommie1]

33. yes !

n/t

[colonel odis]

15. they're afraid people will actually read it and realize the fundies

are full of shit and know nothing of what's taught in the bible.

personally, i don't believe the bible should be taught in public schools. but it is funny seeing how the "christian" coalition is going to back away from the bible being taught in schools.

[progressoid]

16. Damn them!! They want to take God out of the schools!!

Could they be more Janus-faced?

They want prayer and ID in school, but no study of the book that spawns their blather.

[More Than A Feeling]

17. In which we learn (again) that these radical rightists are partisan first,

Christian when convenient. You know they'd be jumping for joy if Republicans proposed this. This should be a warning to anyone who thinks we can buy off these nutjobs with symbolic acts.

[Chemical Bill]

19. I'm against censorship in schools...

but I am also against religion masquerading as a school course. I would be happy to have the bible read in a history or comparative religion class, but not taught as literal truth. I read the bible so I have ammo against so-called christians who don't follow anything that Jesus (allegedly) said.

Bill

[Charlie Brown]

22. They are opposing this bill for the wrong reasons

It's a blatant endorsement of Christianity, and it's illegal.

[arbusto_baboso]

23. Good! Giving kids a thorough grounding in the Bible will show them how..

FULL OF CRAP it is.

Why does anyone bother basing their life on a 2000 year old work of FICTION anyway?!?

[superconnected]

24. sounds like you need the class.

Only the new testament is 2000 years old. (okay will be in about 55years) And then then most of the mythology of the new testament was added in 600 - 1400 years ago. The rest is letter from paul to the churchs he founded. The old testament is between 4000-6000 years old depending on the data you use.

What people need to be taught is bible history, so they can understand it is not all true, and it's written by man, not god(as fundies like to think it's a direct transcription from god). They need to know that barely anything is known of Jesus, and that the virgin Mary and Christmas stories were added intentionally as made up histories in the 600's. At the time that was common for scholars to do that with famous people. They also need to know things like the rapture isn't in the bible. Whats there is a dream that is suppose to be forseeing the fall of rome/other cities, per real bible scholars. The war in heaven etc. where lucifer is cast out doesn't exist at all.

Heaven itself isn't mentioned till nearly the end of the old testament - the book of Daniel, and then where it exists it is not for use of have religion for when you die. The Bible says religion is for the living and puts little emphasis of rewards after you die. Now Chrsitians act like death is what it's all for, and forget that's not the old testament and that certianly isn't the love- your-neighbor-and-spite-the-church-regulations-and-purity-laws, new testament.

Most Christians become exactly what Christ is against in the bible. You don't need to believe in any gods to see what he is for, is applicable to everyone and would work as Ghandi said, if people would try it. The uneducated mock Christ with christianity because they don't get their mocking a book figure much like martin luther king. (kings influence was christ). So good ideology from him, severly twisted by fundies and many many chuch sects that impose their own dogma, and people who've never read him etc.

My point is, the more they knew about it, the less they would jump on the myths. Plus the better they would understand the Jews. The first 5 books of the old testament is the Jewish Tora, the books they recognize in the bible.

[redqueen]

29. Anyone see that show on cable? Banned Books of the Bible?

The description I found online seems on-target.

However, I happened across it while it was on last night, and the description that was included with DirecTV's listing said "some people believe" these books were banned... or words to that effect.

Shocking.

[meow2u3]

31. This is rich! Repuke "Christians" opposing the Bible

Some Christians they are!

[mitchum]

40. This atheist would love for the Bible to be TAUGHT in public schools...

not accepted as holy writ...
not genuflected to as some magic talisman...
not assumed to be a historical record...
but taught
I think the results would surprise many

[Strong Atheist]

43. Disagree as strongly as possible.

Your so hot on it, YOU become a teacher and teach it. Don't force me to.

[Sgent]

41. If someone would bother to read

other articles being pointed to in this post... a few things occur.

1) An understanding that the curriculum advocated by the Democrats is a mix of comparitive religion, philosphy, literature, and history. It is not a religious text.

2) An understanding that the curriculum that is currently used in the AL schools is a protestant fundamentalist sectarian text. The R's want to prevent passage of the bill which will require that course #1 is taught.

As a member of both the ACLU and AU, I don't see a problem with #1.

[Bridget Burke]

45. The Bible will NOT be kept out of the Public Schools in Alabama.

Unfortunately.

But, if a Bible Study elective must be offered, the proposed curriculum (from the Bible Literacy Project) is far better than the current standard from the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools--straight Fundamentalism out of the King James Bible. This source describes the competing curricula as an "End Time Battle."

Some say it's the start of teaching a one world religion, others say it's a harmless elective for high school students, but beginning next year, public schools will be offered a Bible curriculum developed under the influence of people who believe the needs of the citizenry should be subservient to the state, and whose standards are endorsed by such liberal organizations as the National Education Association and the National Association of Evangelicals.

According to the Supreme Court, the public schools cannot endorse religion by teaching it, but the Bible can be taught as a literary or historic curriculum as an elective. And the conservative National Council on Bible Curriculum In Public Schools has been offering a King James Based-based curriculum, used in some 1,100 high schools in 37 states.

The National Council on Bible Curriculum, however, is now challenged by The Bible Literacy Project, who will offer a textbook-based curriculum in schools next year. Its standards are endorsed by the National Education Association, and the liberal National Association of Evangelicals. These standards were developed in part by Charles Haynes, who once worked for Americans United for Separation of Church and State and was on the advisory board of The Pluralism Project, comprised also of people like Wicca priestess Margot Adler. Haynes and others involved with the project are "communitarians", who believe individual needs and rights are secondary to the interests of the state.

Dr. Dennis Cuddy, a former Education Department official and currently a commentator on education issues, reviewed both curriculums. He describes the Bible Literacy Project's textbook as the liberal's answer to the Bible-based approach of the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools. He said the Bible Literacy Project's textbook could lead children to believe that parts of the Bible are mythology and cause them to question whether God is good. He said there are problems he has with the Bible Literacy Projects program that he does not have with that of the Council's.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=57426

[Laelth]

44. This makes perfect sense to me.

Some reasonable Alabama Democrats are proposing to give students the option of studying the Bible so that they can then insist that only science be taught in science classes. It gives them an out. If people want their children to learn the Biblical creation myth, then they can have them enroll in the Bible class. This way the science classes can stay focused on teaching science.

I like the idea, but I would have to insist that no teacher opposed to the class be forced to teach it (my respectful nod to Strong Atheist's concerns).

-Laelth

[2Design]

46. a fight against it being an optional course and not main lined

they don't want religion treated as a separate entity - their propoganda can't work in a democracy