Mexico upset with new immigration bill

[hogwyld]

Seems as though Mexico/Latin America is quite upset with us for not allowing more immigration.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/10/D8F1LRCO5.html

[Loonman]

1. Well

You know what they can do. Start running their countries responsibly, then their citizens wouldn't be so keen to leave.

[John Q. Citizen]

5. If we (and the Europeans) ran Latin Amer. countries better, there

would be more local work available.

Criticizing the local leadership for the policies of their bosses is understandable but doesn't really begin to address the problems.

My bet is that as the leftists in South Amer. consolidate, better social policy will spread to some of the Central American/Caribbean countries, as well as Mexico.

This should slow some push factors in migration.

But immigration will continue, until the pull factors are actually addressed. When the government starts vigorously busting roofing contractors and restaurateurs, seniors who get their lawn mowed, etc ad finium, then and only then will immigration dramatically abate.

Increasing penalties on people immigrating in an attempt to feed their families is stupid and won't work. As long as there is paying work here they will come.

Imprisoning and fining thirty or forty thousand American employers would make the cheap labor too expensive. They could start with the CEO of Walmart, and work their way down to the senior lady down the street who hires someone to cut her lawn.

This will work. But the political cost of implementing it would be high.

On the other hand, if you are one of those who believe we can round up and expel ten million undocumented workers, then only busting, fining and imprisoning 30,000-40,000 employers should seem easy in comparison.

We could call it "The War On Pull Migration Factors" and the perps we can call "pullers." I can see the headlines now...."Cops arrest 8 "pullers" for illegal hiring practices."

[Loonman]

15. I don't have a problem with immigration

I have a problem with illegal immigration. If Vicente Fox cannot run his country properly, it's his own damn fault.

[MercutioATC]

19. My thoughts exactly.

Mexico economically benefits from illegal immigration to the U.S. That's a fact.

I find it distasteful that they're trying to make this a worker's rights issue when it's nothing but sour grapes at not being to be able to economically benefit from an illegal practice any more.

[High Plains]

22. What a stupid comment.

Do you have any notion of history? There are huge historical factors at play, not the least of which is Mexico's subservient role in the global economic system. That dates back to colonial days, but continues to this day under the global economy dominated by the US.

Vicente Fox has been president of Mexico for five years. He will be gone later this year. The problem of Mexican migration north did not start with Fox, nor will it end any time in the foreseeable future.

Please read some history of the Western hemisphere.

The US and other wealthy nations have rigged the global economic system to work to our benefit, not the benefit of poorer countries. In a sense, the mass migration of Mexicans north could be seen as one of the burdens of empire.

[Loonman]

38. So because of historical reasons, no need to fix the problem

Fiddle-dee-dee who cares anyway....la dee da!

[High Plains]

57. Actually, Loonman, I want to apologize for my intemperate

remark above.

I didn't say there is no need to fix the problem. I'm in favor of a guest worker program that actually protects the rights of immigrant workers, along with allowing those undocumented workers already in the country to regularize their status.

I don't think building giant walls through the desert or turning us into even more of a police state is going to help anything.

[msgadget]

39. Great point,

and it has, in fact, been very difficult for local pols to implement what you suggest, that is fining the people who hire illegals. The arguments against enforcing it always come down to 'competition' but if everyone hired employees properly and procured their supplies from countries with fair labor practices there would be a more level playing field and true competition that didn't require cheap labor.

Currently there really can be no competition or free trade - locally or globally - without FAIR and LEGAL labor practices and (this is my latest craze) nationally provided health care. When a certain very large company exerts enormous pressure on its foreign contractors for lower and lower prices these contractors pay their employees less. These workers leave their home country and end up working in the shadows with few rights or legal protections.

Unfortunately, this nation was built with cheap labor and it's a standard it does not seem willing to abandon.

[ugarte]

2. Empty rhetoric on both sides...nothing is going to change...nt

[pinerow]

3. And the xenophobia countinues here on DU...

Can anyone quantify the number of "undocumented" workers coming in through our northern borders..?...I happen to know a number of British and Irish ssoftware engineers working here without legal papers...seems to me that the complaints about "illegal" immigration has more to do with the origin of the immigrants...

[Bridget Burke]

4. "Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue ....

... for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank."

In the old days, Irish immigrants sent plenty of money home. To pay passage for other relatives--or just to help support the old folks.

Nowadays, some people see this as "wrong." However, it's a bit of a safety valve. Another Mexican Revolution would greatly increase immigration.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. Compare albedos. -nt

[MercutioATC]

9. Are Mexicans more reflective?

I don't get the "albedo" statement.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. Less.

I wanted to be geekily cryptical. As in, it's OK when nordic-looking people go to the US to work and send money back home. Now them dirty brown people...

[MercutioATC]

11. Gotcha! You succeeded!

It was geeky enough to use albedo. I should have gotten the less reflective issue.

:toast:

[MercutioATC]

8. I believe the "undocumented" status would make that difficult.

That said, I don't have a problem accepting that the majority of illegal immigration exists on the U.S./Mexico border.

[pinerow]

13. Of course you don't have a problem 'accepting' that a majority

of illegal immigration exists on the southern border...those are the people that pick your fruit and your lettuc...those are the people washing your dirty dishes and cleaning out the grease traps in your favorite restaurants...those are NOT the people taking middle class jobs, electrical engineers, software engineers, computer techs, IT Professionals..nope...those jobs are being sold overseas, and cheap labor is being imported to supplant home-grown candidtaes...many of whom come through on limited work visas and remain beyond their stated time period...and where do those "immigrants' come from...England, Ireland, Scotland, canada, and to a lesser extent, India and Pakistan...so let's call a spade a spade...unless you or yours are willing to do the dirty little jobs that "some Americans" find beneath their ken...quit yer bitchin' and get a proper guest worker program on the books...'nuff said!

[MercutioATC]

14. That's a flawed argument, IMO.

The reason that Americans won't pick cabbages is that the agriculture industry has tens of thousands of illegal workers who'll do it for a couple of bucks an hour. If that illegal labor pool was eliminated, growers (and other industries) would be forced to pay a wage that would attract American workers...and American workers would take those jobs.

The reason that American workers won't take those jobs is because they don't pay enough.

The reason they don't pay enough is because employers are paying illegals substandard wages.

Remove the illegals, and the wages would HAVE to rise, thus attracting American workers.


Thus, illegals ARE taking American jobs.

[hogwyld]

18. Couldn't have said it better myself

One perfect example is the meat packing industry. Used to be a lot of American workers made a fair, middle class wage for carving up meat. Nowadays, those jobs are being taken more by illegals willing to work for a whole lot less. Hell, I would scrub toilets all day if the wage was fair!

[High Plains]

24. Could meatpackers' declining real wages have something to do

with the unions being broken in the 1980s?

I don't think we can blame the Mexicans for that.

I was a member of the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workers of America when I worked the packing houses in the 1970s. We had union contracts. We had good wages. When my son worked as a meat packer in the 1990s, he made about half what I did in terms of real wages. He didn't have a union contract.

[Bridget Burke]

29. It's much easier to blame the Mexicans than the Union Busters....

And so convenient.

Mexican & Mexican-American workers have a long history of activism. Organize!

[MercutioATC]

33. Blame union-busters but don't ignore the negative effects of illegal labor

Both are problems. We don't have to ignore one to deal with the other.

[hogwyld]

32. Fair enough

I'm not quite as seasoned as you, but I was a butcher in training at the local market while in high school. We got "mergerized" by a large company, and they ended up firing all the butchers except the top one. Replaced all the apprentices with unskilled, non-union guys, who would work for lower wages. I think if the illegals didn't provide so much downward wage pressure, you son would have a union contract. Just my .02

[pinerow]

20. You begin with a flawed assumption...That assumption being that

if the growers paid more, ergo sum...crop picking has traditionally been the lowest paying job in the U.S...remember "The Grapes of Wrath" it is generally "piece-work", first generation immigrants have, in general, been over represented in these jobs...as the immigrant improved his/her station in life, usually by having the entire family working, fewer and fewer remain at the so-called bottom of the economic ladder.

It is a fallacy to think that if the growers would "only" pay higher wages that there would be a mad dash for those 'coveted' high paying jobs. Wal-Mart buys from manufacturers who pay what we here in the states would consider a "slave" wage...keeps your merchandise cheap and reachable to a great number of people...if, as you say, growers would pay 'decent wages', I doubt very much you would be able to afford the 'real' price of the fruit and vegetables on your table...and one other thing...I have driven by many so-called day-labor centers and and notice that those who are willing to work will generally get work...for the most part...it has been my experience that when it comes to putting food on the table, we are willing to do pretty much what it takes to achieve that goal...As a past resident of Silicon Valley, the worry was not about who was going to pick your fruit, rather it was about who was going to get the IT position, or the software developer who had to compete against cheaper British, Irish, Indian or Pakistani who would work for a third of the prevailing wage...let's approach the bull by the horns and institute an intelligent guest worker bill...lets work toward increasing educational opportunities for young men and women in the math and engineering fields...let's stop outsourcing jobs and services that have traditionally been performed here and stop tilting at the "illegal immigration" windmill.

[MercutioATC]

26. A couple of issues with your assertions:

1) I didn't claim that picking vegetables would ever be a "coveted high paying job". There are many jobs in this country that pay at least the minimum wage and are performed by Americans that are neither coveted nor high-paying. The fact is that they're still employing Americans. Hiring illegal immigrants at slave wages DOES cost Americans jobs.

2) If growers were unable to hire illegals and had to pay a decent wage would consumer prices increase? Almost definitely. This, however, is not a viable argument against paying a decent wage. If it is, we chould be clamoring for illegals to take jobs at Ford at $2.50 an hour because that would reduce the price we pay for cars. The fact is that produce prices are being artificially kept low because the labor cost involved is being kept low through the use of illegal workers.

3) Maybe "As a past resident of Silicon Valley" YOU were more worried about IT jobs than lower-paying jobs, but there are a lot of unskilled American laborers that might have different worries. This isn't a discussion on outsourcing middle class jobs to other countries, it's a discussion of how illegal labor in this country costs American workers jobs.

[pinerow]

46. This is why your comparisons don't work...

1) The so-called "Big Three" Auto manufacturers are still unionized; strong honest unions insure a level playing field, and the ones that are not unionized pay competitive wages in order to restrict union organizing.

2) Union busting and low wages were and are still common among many industries...let's not forget that the Union busting craze began in ernest during St. Ronnies' administration...I believe one can infer a causal relationship between union busting, "mergerizing" and the subsequent lowering of "Real" american wages...even adjusting for inflation.

3)You have no empirical evidence to suggest that "illegal" workers are keeping the cost of produce at an artificially low level...anecdotal evidence to the contrary...drive by a day-labor center and you will see those who wish to work are in fact, working.

4) I'm not sure what you deem to be "unskilled" labor...but most of the roofers, carpenters, and other construction people I know are constantly complaining as to how difficult it is to keep someone hired...which I will readily admit is anecdotal, it says something about the "lost unskilled jobs"...and we don't have a shit-load of illegals to blame for that.

5)As for living in Silicon Valley...It is my humble opinion that if engineers, software developers, IT people and the like had unionized, it would have been much more difficult to replace them with lower paid workers.

[MercutioATC]

48. ...and a few responses...

1) I'm not denying that. I'm stating that nobody is advocating lowering the cost of automobiles by using cheap illegal labor. Why do it with produce, then?

2) I didn't deny any of that. I think that both outsourcing and employing illegal labor make it EASIER to bust unions.

3) YOU were the one who suggested that produce prices would rise if growers stopped using illegal workers and raised wages. I'm not disagreeing, but it was YOUR contention, not mine.

4) I didn't claim that illegal workers were responsible for every labor woe. There are obviously some issues that have other causes.

5) I'm in favor of unions. I just don't think your Silicon Valley/IT people claim had anything to do with illegal workers taking vegetable-picking jobs. Even if you want to draw the comparison, wouldn't limiting the ability of employers to employ illegal foreign IT people HELP your chances of unionization?

[pinerow]

53. We agree on more things than we disagree on...

4) You stated that the reason produce prices were low was because they were subsidized by low wages paid to "illegals'...I simply removed the subsidy in order to refute your claim. I believe that if your claim is true (subsidy=low wage), then removing "low wage" would increase the price of said product.

if you must know...it
is my opinion that for the most part, the Silicon Valley folks got suckered into the "Benign Ruler" syndrome, and ended up in a situation partly of their own doing...many of the firms promised "Blue-Sky" inducements in order to pre-empt any unionizing efforts...then again...that's just what I think...

[MercutioATC]

55. It appears so...

:)

I agree about the tech industry in Silicon Valley. People saw millionaires being created overnight and were swayed by it. Unfortunately, when the economic situation reversed, they had no protections.

[Gormy Cuss]

44. Do you really think we import IT workers because Americans can't do it?

It's all about wage suppression, whether it's H1B visas, offshoring, or illegal immigrants doing farm work (and other jobs.)

Bright college graduates in liberals arts can learn most IT jobs. Very few require extensive math or engineering backgrounds. They require analytic skills and the ability to synthesize new tasks quickly. It's the pretext of requiring computer science or engineering degrees that allows companies to justify H1Bs, etc. Without such tools to import cheaper workers or offshore the jobs we would see corporations training their own IT staff or lobbying the government to provide such opportunities.


At the other end of the spectrum, workers who are here with iffy immigration status can't stand up for themselves to demand fair labor practices. A guest worker program will provide protections and employers will see costs rise. Our food costs will go up because the workers will be able to demand better compensation. What will happen then? Offshoring of food production? We already import a ridiculous amount of food for a country with our agricultural resources. Why not just suspend farming altogether and use that land to built more houses and retail centers?

[pinerow]

47. You said a mouthful...

NT

[HereSince1628]

56. Why don't you want to increase eductational opportunities for older men?

With the convulsion in technology and manufacturing don't 50 year olds put out of work deserve to have help with opportunities for retraining?

Seems to me American educational/apprentice opportunities are already pretty biased toward toward young people.

[High Plains]

23. Actually, I read recently of labor shortages in the California fields

Now is your moment of opportunity.

[MercutioATC]

27. Really? What are they paying?

It's a simple economic principle. If you want a job performed, you must pay a wage that will attract workers.

[primavera]

51. $10/hr

And it's evidently not enough to attract American workers, although, strangely, many of them will work 50 hour work weeks at Mal-Wart for under $7/hr, so it must not just be about the money.

[mrbassman03]

54. Bullshit... put up a link... n/t

[FormerRepublican]

72. Dude, I picked vegetables in Texas gratis.

And I'm not an illegal immigrant from Mexico. I also know a number of other lily white folks sweating all day in the fields of Texas. Yes, there are also illegals there, side by side with the white folks.

Here in Utah, MOST people working the fields are white college students, despite the numbers of illegals we have all over the place. Most of the illegals here work in spanish speaking businesses - Mexican grocery, fast food, resturants, etc. I ought to know since I'm currently living in an area with a very high hispanic population and have illegal immigrant neighbors.

Your whole argument is stereotypical. Despite the hype, the folks working the fields are NOT all illegals from Mexico, but thanks for playing.

[primavera]

50. That's not really true

Agriculture has a huge need for labor; labor - even undocumented labor - is consequently a commodity for which employers compete by offering decent wages. The going rate for picking produce is about $10/hr, substantially over the wages paid at Mal-Wart where a great many Americans work. So your argument that illegals drive down wages, thus reducing the attractiveness of certain kinds of work simply doesn't hold water.

[Greyhound]

62. Biggest, Big Lie in 30 years. Just try to get one of those jobs without

being Hispanic. BTW the agri-businesses are having trouble filling those jobs now because the illegals are working construction now. Killing what's left of the unions and further suppressing wages.

[hogwyld]

64. My ex's brother was in construction

He was a union mason. Made a good wage to support his wife and 3 kids. He got out of the trade because he wouldn't work 9.75 per hour. He said all the trades like carpentry, plumbing, etc were being gobbled up by the illegals. Of course, the lower wages aren't reflected in the price of the houses, so it's just added profit for the fat cats.

[Greyhound]

73. Same story all over the nation and they won't talk about it

when we're having this debate, they just deny it and say that it's not true. $9.75, that is the starting wage for a new hire at In-n-Out here.

[BikeWriter]

74. Those fat cats pay near slave wages, too.

They're under-cutting all our unions.

[Wise Doubter]

12. or the social class.

:puke:

[hogwyld]

41. Why is it xenophobic

To want to know who is in your country? You and I both know it's not just Mexican fruit pickers crossing the borders that concerns me, it who else is right behind him/her?

[Greyhound]

61. Au contraire mon frier, for myself I've turned in several 'northern'

illegals and they've gone their way. I don't give a crap where they're from, only that they get to go back.

[MercutioATC]

7. Ummmm.....so what? It's not THEIR immigration bill.

I really don't care if they like it or not...I'm just surprised they have the cojones to demand "guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States". THEY have nothing to say about it. It's OUR policy.

[Bridget Burke]

16. They do have a right to speak out.

"Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said.

The countries represented at the meeting including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation.

"There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said.

Derbez has called the measure _ which passed the U.S. House of Representatives last month but still must go before the Senate _ "stupid and underhanded," but was somewhat more restrained on Monday, saying "it's not the Mexican government's position to tell the U.S. Senate what to do."

The US is not the only country that gets undocumented immigrants. Mexico has quite few people coming in from their Southern border.

How many times has our government complained about another?

[MercutioATC]

17. I just don't see why anybody would listen...

Illegal immigration from Mexico to the U.S. aids the Mexican economy while harming the U.S. economy. Of COURSE they'd like it to continue. They're not in a position to "demand" anything, though, especially when they're so obviously trying to color an economic issue as a worker's rights issue.

[Bridget Burke]

21. Well, I'm listening to them.

I'm concerned when people try to turn a Workers' Rights Issue into an economic issue. Divide the workers--it's an old tactic.

Whenever I hear the phrase "I just don't see"--I'm glad to recommend a yearly eye exam.

[MercutioATC]

28. Perhaps the workers NEED to be divided...

...the illegal workers from the legal ones, that is. Why should somebody have the "right" to illegally enter this country and illegally work?

It's in violation of U.S. law AND it harms our economy.

[Bridget Burke]

31. Thanks for admitting it.

Blame the undocumented rather than the union busters.

[MercutioATC]

34. Blame both. Deal with both.

Where's the sense in ignoring the negative effects of illegal labor (and illegal immigration in general)?

[Bridget Burke]

36. Priorities.

Everyone makes choices.

[MercutioATC]

37. Both are detrimental to U.S. labor.

If you want to address union-busting, that's great. How does arguing for rights for illegals aid that purpose, though?

*hint* It doesn't...it may actually work against it.

[hogwyld]

35. Let me ask you this

If a thief comes into your house and takes something from you, do you blame the thief for entering your house illegally, or the homeowner for not securing the house properly?

[Bridget Burke]

42. Why should I blame my landlady?

Although I haven't had any break-ins recently.

Thanks for your concern about my (rented) house, though!

[John Q. Citizen]

40. Migration is dependent on push / pull factors. Your so-called

solution is to, what, round up the 10 million undocumented workers in this country and deport them to their countries of origin? At the same time seal the borders and make sure none of them or others finds a way in?

That sounds complicated, expensive, and it has a lot of probable downsides. Why not advocate the arrest, detention, and fining of 30 or 40 thousand employers in the US? When people caught on that the penalty was big and real, they would quit hiring undocumented workers and the workers would leave. Word would spread and they would quit coming. Hiring undocumented labor would be too expensive.

This is a much more sensible and doable undertaking on numbers alone than going after poor people. As long as there is money to be made working in the US the people will come. If we vigorously prosecute those who fund the immigration, the immigration will not take place in the first place.

Going after the immigrants themselves is a waste of tax money and bound to fail. Going after the employers, big and small, would pay for itself in fines and confiscations alone. Why should greedy Americans who crave cheap labor get off the hook?

[MercutioATC]

43. I agree that employer enforcement would offer greater returns.

I also agree that systematically rounding up every illegal worker in this country and sealing the borders would be cost-prohibitive.

However, I feel that we'd benefit by most by a multifaceted approach:

1) Increase enforcement and fines on employers.

2) Make the borders less porus.

3) Deport those who have entered this country illegally.


I don't think #3 should be the primary focus, but I do think it should be a part of the equation. When we have mortgage companies changing rules specifically to allow illegals to purchase homes in the U.S., there's something wrong.

[John Q. Citizen]

45. If we cracked down long and hard on the employers, we would save

the cost of deportation and detension because almost everyone would go home on their own if they couldn't work. Poricity of the boarder would cease to be as troublesome (after all, Canada's boarder is more porous)

My bet is with the farms gone, the restaurants out of business, and the car washes closed down, and seniors not being able to afford to have their lawns mowed, people will be wishing for the good old days.

[MercutioATC]

49. Are you in favor of a different approach or not enforcing immigration laws

at all? I'm confused.

"My bet is with the farms gone, the restaurants out of business, and the car washes closed down, and seniors not being able to afford to have their lawns mowed, people will be wishing for the good old days." You're suggesting that the "good old days" of illegal labor is something to preserve, or not?

[High Plains]

25. Like we never tell any other countries what to do.

Seriously, countries need to work together to resolve common issues. That just makes sense.

[MercutioATC]

30. It's silly when we do it, too.

[FreakinDJ]

52. I like the way they FRAMED the issue

- MIGRANT TRAFFICKING -

Has a nice ring to it that really depicts real issues

[Bridget Burke]

58. It's not just a US "problem"

From the article:

"Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said.

The countries represented at the meeting _ including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama _ created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation.

"There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said.

Mexico has workers coming through its Southern Border. But the attendees at the meeting disagree with Bush's "solution."

[High Plains]

59. Enforcing sanctions on employers has its problems

There is a thriving black market in fake social security cards and other necessary documents because of earlier attempts to make employers become immigration officials.

If a worker presents a social security card, how is the employer to know it's fake?

Also, how do we enforce it? Flying SWAT teams hitting randomly selected businesses? Flying SWAT teams stopping and searching groups of dark-skinned people?

Also, people who talk about throwing employers in jail seem to think that it is huge corporations (those evil bastards)who are hiring undocumented workers. There is some of that, but I suspect many of these employers are guys like construction contractors, restaurant owners, and other small businessmen scraping along. Do we really want to turn our guns on these people?

[pinerow]

60. It is fairly easy to detect a fake...but the employer has to really

want to know...it is S.O.P for some employers to run credit checks...fake SSAN's pop up all the time...

[NorthernSpy]

76. social security numbers can be verified

If a worker presents a social security card, how is the employer to know it's fake?

Businesses are supposed to send in W2s for each worker. That gives us an opportunity to check the SSNs, and to notify employers when the numbers don't check out.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect employers to fire and report anyone whose paperwork proves phony.

[applegrove]

63. That 3 year deal for "guest workers" will keep wages way down -

for all the working people who are not in the stock market. And it will fight inflation so that the stock market can keep roaring.

I'd be pretty mad too.

[High Plains]

65. Are you talking about the Bush proposal?

I favor a guest worker program as long as it incorporates rights for those workers. I want them to be able to organize to defend their rights, like anybody else. That should create a countervailing upward pressure on wages. As would the fact they would be here legally and could demand to be paid legal wages.

I don't want a guest worker program that is merely a conduit for exploited labor.

[pinerow]

67. good point...!

nt

[applegrove]

71. What do you think a three year limit for guest workers mean? It means

their employer or the government gets to up or down their stay depending on some unknown set of criteria. Which could include union membership or anything really.

After three years you get sent home. Unless you leave no footprint.

I'm guessing most guest workers will not join unions. And they will also - never be able to vote.

Now who does that help?

Certainly not Mexicans. And not the left in the USA. Not the workers on the whole. Wages will be depressed. So big oil can continue to sell gas, stock market will roar, and only the workers fight inflation to keep stocks rolling along. Despite supply shocks like price of oil rising.

Prices of goods may come down a bit. But still - all the hard work is being done by workers. When do the elites in the USA sacrifice?

[High Plains]

75. I'm not supporting the Bush guest worker proposal.

But I do support some means of regularizing this exploited labor force. I'm also open to some sort of process for allowing these millions of undocumented residents to seek citizenship.

[NorthernSpy]

77. actually, if you really wanted to "create upward pressure on wages"...

... you'd stop allowing employers to flood the labor pool with foreigners. But that would serve the interests of American workers, which makes such a measure unthinkable.

:eyes:

[applegrove]

78. There are some jobs Americans are not doing. But yes - exploitation

is not good in any form. But a three year guest worker program is going to depress wages further.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinerow]

68. It's a shame to see anyone take a serious discussion and

reduce it to 3rd grade level...with apologies to all thinking 3rd graders...

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hogwyld]

70. Are you sure

That you're on the right board??? Remember, us DUer's are the compassionate ones.