New Pentagon Study finds that withheld Armor Could've saved hundreds....

[Terran1212]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/politics/06cnd-armor.html?hp&ex=1136610000&en=cba30b2ab5b558f5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

A secret Pentagon study has found that at least 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to their upper body could have survived if they had extra body armor. That armor has been available since 2003 but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.

The ceramic plates in vests currently worn by the majority of military personnel in Iraq cover only some of the chest and back. In at least 74 of the 93 fatal wounds that were analyzed in the Pentagon study of marines from March 2003 through June 2005, bullets and shrapnel struck the marines' shoulders, sides or areas of the torso where the plates do not reach.

Thirty-one of the deadly wounds struck the chest or back so close to the plates that simply enlarging the existing shields "would have had the potential to alter the fatal outcome," according to the study, which was obtained by The New York Times.

[roguevalley]

1. Can we impeach him now?

[mbperrin]

4. Surely this at least approaches some kind of culpable manslaughter!

Flunks the reasonable person test....wonder how much WE paid for this study?

News flash: body armor in a war zone is better than not having it! Well, no duh!

[tblue37]

13. I am convinced it's all about war profiteering.

Someone made money by withholding that armor.

[Peter Frank]

28. You know it...

Some number cruncher whittled away at minimum protection for profit.

[Barkley]

17. We can impeach him after someone gives him a blowjob in the oval office-nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

54. What HAS Gannon been up to lately? nt

[benddem]

2. that in itself

should be grounds for impeachment of both Bush and Cheney...and the firing of Rummy, Wolfie, et al.

[Nordmadr]

3. Allow me to give this vote five. N/T

[bonito]

5. So they are not ,in fact ,supporting our troops.

[MetaTrope]

6. I wonder how much armor the money spent on this study could have bought?

:shrug:

[kstewart33]

7. Someone should hang Rummy up by his you-know-whats.

This is an impeachable offense.

[librechik]

37. send him to Iraq with bad armor n/t

[NoQuarter]

45. Don't you know that

all this macho posturing and bluster is compensating for the lack of you-know-whats?

[xynthee]

8. AAAARRRRGHHHH!!!!

WHY would they choose Mom and Pop businesses for monumental things like this? I'm pro-Mom and Pop, but I'd gladly let Wal-Mart or Halliburton make a few hundred billion (more) dollars off the taxpayers if they were the ones who could supply the best armor the fastest!! We're talking about human lives here!! What the fuck is WRONG with these people????

:mad:

SNIP:

"The shortfalls in bulletproof vests are just one of the armor problems the Pentagon continues to struggle with as the war in Iraq approaches the three-year mark, The Times has found in an ongoing examination of the military procurement system.

The production of a new armored truck called the Cougar, which military officials said has thus far withstood every insurgent attack, has fallen three months behind schedule. The small company making the truck has been beset by a host of production and legal problems.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon is still relying on another small factory in Ohio to armor all of the military's principal transport truck, the Humvee, and it remains backlogged with orders. The facility, owned by Armor Holdings, increased production in December after reports in The Times about delays drew criticism from Congress. But the Marine Corps said it is still waiting for about 2,000 of these vehicles to replace other Humvees in Iraq that are more lightly armored, and does not expect final delivery until June.

An initiative begun by the Pentagon nearly two years ago to speed up production by having additional firms armor new Humvees remains incomplete, Army officials said."

[RamboLiberal]

25. Thank God these fools didn't run production during WWII

Germany and Japan would've won.

We got vehicle assembly lines and skilled autoworkers idle all across the country and these fools give the contracts to small companies. During WWII, without all the sophisticated machinery and computers we have today, in just weeks and months they geared up all kinds of factories to produce war material. Automakers were building planes and all kinds of vehicles. Smaller shops produced bullets, guns, clothes, helmets, etc.

Support the troops is more than a yellow ribbon made in China.

[librechik]

38. the Nazis are back, only now they run us

nobody to save us this time

[eppur_se_muova]

9. What company supplied the body armor?

Wasn't this the company whose CEO gave a $$$$$$ bash for his 13-year old daughter's bat mitzvah? Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[satya]

26. You may be right, if it's DHB subsidiary Point Blank Body Armor.

Although it sounds like this company had no problem delivering the armor, it just wasn't really bulletproof.

What does a $10 million Bat Mitzvah have to do with the War in Iraq?

[Trevelyan]

59. Please sign petition for media to continue covering Katrina victims

the story at Kos about the obscene $10 million bat mitzvah with photos of the man who profitted from the recalled armor shouldn't be missed. I hope the SEC throws the book at him.

ADD YOUR SIGNATURE TO THIS PETITION

http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/934
MediaChannel Katrina Campaign: Keep the Light on Injustice
A MediaChannel appeal in the aftermath of the Katrina catastrophe...

[sniffa]

10. you go to war with armor you have, not the armor you want

democratizing is messy.

[jasmeel]

11. But apparently we had the armor right? What were they saving

it for?

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Three most over rated things in the world

What are the three most over rated things in the world?

1. Home cooking
2. Home screwing
3. The Harvard Grad School of Business

Rummie is a Harvard MBA - like Bush

[IbeaBonehead]

14. Close your eyes and imagine the Deafening Roar from Repigs..

if this had come out during Clinton's term or any Democratic administration..

[RC]

15. Hey Folks, the Study is not the problem...

The problem is this administration not supplying/properly supporting our troops.
A simple phone call or even a sentence in a conversation by bu$h or rummy to the right person would have done wonders in correcting the body armor problem.

People apparently are not worth much to the world class sociopaths in charge. There has been plenty of time to fix this. It hasn't really been addressed in any real manner by our government either.

[54anickel]

16. Was that the article title when you originally posted?

Because it now reads, "Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows". Nothing about withheld armor, though it does seem they tried to withhold the study - after holding up the study to begin with.

[fooj]

18. Geez. You think?

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...:grr:

[stop the bleeding]

19. But the WH & DOD care for the troops - WTF - US is under this spell....

911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911



America you are my Slave



911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911


911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911

[ClayZ]

21. I bet Cheney had plenty of Body Armor on when he was in Iraq

for an hour!

[stop the bleeding]

22. I have seen Star Wars and Vader is always heavly protected.

911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911



America you are my Slave



911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911


911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911 911

[Cobalt Violet]

20. Can you imagine the reaction if Clinton had done this?

How the hell can they claim to support the troops? I wonder if this is part of the "course" we're going to stay?

[dcdacrazydemocrat]

23. to tell u the truth, im not suprised

by the the stupidity of the pentagon. it is like not giving a paint bballer a mask. it is just so stupid!

[mom cat]

24. But, but, but, We needed money for the tax cuts for the super rich!

MFSOB

[RedSock]

27. still aren't sure about getting the extra armor though

from the times:

"The Army, which has the largest force in Iraq, is still deciding what to purchase, according to Army procurement officials."

--------------

take your time, no hurry at all.

[Trevelyan]

57. Even now OUR SOLDIERS ARE NOT GETTING THE ARMOR THEY NEED

Go to AnySoldier and see the requests for blankets and boots as well as armor and ask your Congresspersons where the $300 Billion for Iraq went.

sign Rep. Louise Slaughter's petition to create a Truman Commission to investigate this corruption of war profiteers.

http://groups.google.com/group/TruthJusticeHonor? Description

#1 - Point Blank Body Armor - Chief Operations Officer Sandra Hatfield maker of - Interceptor - outer tactical vest (body armor)
*it failed protection and safety issues, yet was issued to Marine**let it go through anyway to production and payment
***exposed the shoddy equipment

#2 - HumVee Armor Plating protection. O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt in West Chester, Ohio. aka - Armor Holdings of Jacksonville, Fla.*** exposed the shoddy equipment

#3 - Armor kits. Stewart & Stevenson of Sealy, Texas *** exposed the shoddy equipment

#4 - HumVee vehicles*** exposed the shody equipment
< Gary Motsek, director of support operations for Army Materiel Command and former Army chief of staff Gen. Eric Shinseki>

ANALYSTS Defense analyst Bill Arkin

A - No Yellow Ribbon passiveness on the car, the home window, or around neighborhood trees.
B - No Flag waving excuses, with easy placed flags on car windows, that say nothing.
C - No Opinions without action.
D - Send real support(the cost taxpayer money, yours and mine)not just applause.

This is an informational, research, debate, group on what really supporting the troops...IS? This group goes beyond non active yellow ribbons, and lapel pins. It is the intention of this group to expose military equipment makers that endanger our troops. And it ask members to be active and write to their Congressmen and to the shoddy equipment makers, as well as expose any profiteering and cronyims.

[Nothing Without Hope]

29. Should be emphasized: this was a SECRET study. Also, thread in GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x72586
thread title (1-7-06 GD): Pentagon Had but Withheld Armor that Could Have Saved 80% of KIA in Iraq

[jody]

30. Survived yes, to live as a mutilated, cripple wreck with horrible memories

for the rest of their lives.

I wonder how many wounded veterans of Iraq will say it was worth their sacrifice?

[Sgent]

31. What really happened

was that they nixed the armor for ground troups due to budget concerns -- they needed their fancy planes and high tech electronics.

$40 million is all it would cost to buy new vests for every soldier in Iraq (160,000 X $250).

[0007]

32. Nominated and bbtft

[silverlib]

33. Administration would rather have a dead soldier than a wounded one?

That's what I think this boils down to - less expensive - not as many veterans requiring years of subsidies. Isn't this what it's all about? And the icing is that the low bid gets the contract.

[Lochloosa]

34. I have nothing to add....K/R

[TheGunslinger]

35. After all the crap the * campaign gave Kerry over the $87 billion bill.

[zbdent]

60. and all the Repukes who "voted against it before they voted for it"

Did any of them ask if the money was going to actually go to the troops for body armor?

Don't think so . . .

[LiberalinNC]

36. It's sickening!!! Assholes who never fought in a war, yet let alone

served, decide to create an unnecessary war, and then have our brave soldiers killed because they weren't provided proper attire is just gross negligence. :mad:

[pinniped]

39. They were saving the armor for the coming war with Iran.

:think:

[PATRICK]

40. that raises an interesting point actually

Is there any stockpiling going on for "future conflicts" if such detail is available even to Congress? So we have the shoddy vests, the slow to make vests and perhaps reserve supplies elsewhere. makes one really really wonder about our capacity to fight multiple wars from now on, except of course where we are greeted as heroes and go home after a week. Unfortunately we have made Iraq the premier training ground or trophy hunt for vulnerable troops. That means it could be very much worse in any future occupation.

And do the "support the troops" crowd give a damn? They remind me of the SS troops following the slogging regular German army, doing none of the fighting and alienating the populace who might have been pacified by dishonorable, horrific war crimes. And who does Reagan try to be conciliatory toward? SS soldiers at a cemetery. With people like the American RW in charge the whole world becomes their personal death camp.

[jbfam4]

41. Rummy said we could do it on the cheep

[FogerRox]

42. yes-- Rummy said- "you go with the army you have"

SO Rummy would have invaded Normandy in what--- January of 1942? SOrry DUmmy- er ah Rummy, FDR & IKE waited untill they had everything in place-- then they licked ass.

THe Bush Regime is wrong on every level.

[UrbScotty]

43. Proof that Bush&Co. aren't pro-life

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Imagevision]

44. This clearly shows the support this administration have for the troops...!

[Trevelyan]

56. Post on neutral messageboards like AOL and Yahoo with links

so that the FReepers stating liberals are endangering troops and those who are looking for answers have a place to start with truthsites.

I have read that a large percentage of troops would not have been killed if they had adequate armor several months ago with the percentage but couldn't remember where I read it. I am glad to have a link to give people when making this statement about the criminal bush regime.

Remember that Skull and Bones and other Illuminati secret societies have as their goal to kill 80% of the world's population and enslave the remaining 20%. Why did hitler want to kill millions of people? How did he get his "team" together and the death machine set up so quickly? Read about the secret society Thule (Illuminati) who created hitler.

[thebigidea]

46. in an even secret-er study, hundred thousand saved if war withheld

but oh no, Rummy needed a crack at his "target-rich environment."

[TankLV]

47. But they're outlawing PROSTITUTION and MASTURBATION!

Isn't that more important to spend they're time on?

Along with spying on all Democrats, of course...

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. And the military are supposed to wag their talils like spaniels

when the likes of Bush and Rumsfelt tell them how they're the finest people their nation has and what a great job they're doing.

It makes me cringe whenever I hear it. I always think when they say such things, from anybody else it might be viewed as a sincere compliment, but it just sounds like the most monstrous presumption in their mouths.

[OU Bobcat]

49. Here's something to look up...

I'll bet that "the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection" = the defense contractor failed to grease the appropriate republican palms. It's not about the expense of the equipment though, it never is. The pentagon would spend $1000 for a ping pong ball if Halliburton made it.

[BenDavid]

50. Article dated 2003

This is just one of the many stories that dealt with soldiers not having enough armour. Hell, it was even part of the discussion in the 04 campaign, but the american public went tone deaf and elected this reprobate.....

Posted 3/26/2004 4:19 AM USA Today
Soldiers in Iraq still buying their own body armor
The Associated Press
Soldiers headed for Iraq are still buying their own body armor — and in many cases, their families are buying it for them — despite assurances from the military that the gear will be in hand before they're in harm's way.
Body armor distributors have received steady inquiries from soldiers and families about purchasing the gear, which can cost several thousand dollars. Though the military has advised them not to rely on third-party suppliers, many soldiers say they want it before they deploy.

Last October, it was reported that nearly one-quarter of American troops serving in Iraq did not have ceramic plated body armor, which can stop bullets fired from assault rifles and shrapnel.

The military says the shortfall is over and soldiers who do not yet have the armor soon will. But many want to avoid the risk.

"What we hear from soldiers is that they are told that they are going to get body armor just before they leave or just after they get there. But they don't want to take a chance," said Nick Taylor, owner of Bulletproofme.com, an online distributor of body armor in Austin, Texas.

Inquiries rise and fall with the rate of deployments, fueled by stories of units falling under attack as little as a day after being issued body armor. Whether they are true, the stories are prompting families to think about buying the equipment, Taylor said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has talked with hundreds of families who bought body armor for soldiers in Iraq, said the military lost the trust of soldiers' families.

In that regard, it is not surprising that families bought body armor in spite of what military advised, he said.

"There still is a lingering level of mistrust with some families as to whether there are people thinking about the best equipment and needs of their loved ones," Turley said. "No one that I know of has been truly held accountable."

When are the Democrats going to start having a louder voice on these issues. Or are all the so called leaders of this party wearling pink tu-tu's....You cannot wait for the mediawhores to help you get the story out, the Dems have got to start raising the issues, and get in front and often, often, of a tv camera...

[wiley]

51. Nominated and Kicked

How can Americans ever trust the CORRUPT REPUBLICANS again. This is outrageous. Okay, I may be starting to really lose it. The CORRUPT REPUBLICANS do not care about the men and woimen serving in the military, working for a living, non-wealthy Caucasians.

CORRUPT REPUBLICANS

IMPEACH!

[savemefromdumbya]

52. All those in charge of the Pentagon should be fired

Totally incompetent leadership. Our troops deserve better!

[agincourt]

53. Gee, I wonder,

How are the talking media pigs going to spin the blame for this on the Democrats tomorrow? Oh I know, Michael Moore didn't spend all his profits from F9-11 on body armor for the troops so HEES guilty. Thats the ticket.

[Trevelyan]

55. See the results of the lack of armor - The Memory Hole

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/wounded/gallery.htm
http://www.lophatham.com/

We've seen the dead Iraqi Kids - Now See What You Don't Want To See...Know The Truth! Feeling Bad for Those Poor Iraqi Kids?

Don't just feel sorry for this AMERICAN SOLDIER -

DO SOMETHING USEFUL Stop the BLOODY CARNAGE!

Most Americans haven't seen the growing legion of wounded troops returning from Iraq who are cared for at military facilities sealed off from the public. The media, in turn, have focused on the hit-and-run guerrilla attacks that claim one or two GIs in Iraq almost daily. Little attention has been paid to the long, difficult and very personal struggles that ensue in wards at BAMC and Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington.

Source: Christenson, Sig. "Soldiers, Marines work to recover from war injuries at BAMC." San Antonio Express-News, 18 Aug 2003.

THIS IS WAR! LOOK! THIS IS OUR COUNTRYMEN! LOOK - KNOW THE TRUTH

Yes! We, the Coalition of the Willing (that's YOU TOO!) - we're killing Iraqi kids and; we're probably using illegal weapons!

This is OUR BROTHER! LOOK! SEE! KNOW THE TRUTH!

And then do something useful - STOP THIS BLOODY CARNAGE!

[Trevelyan]

58. I hope Sen. Dodd is really doing this - An AOL thread about Soldiers

having problems receiving reimbursement for the armor they or they families bought had already disappeared.

http://dodd.senate.gov/Attention Military Personnel and Families

"Did you know that Senator Dodd authored legislation which was signed into law last year, requiring the Department of Defense to reimburse troops, families, and charities for any equipment they purchased for use in Iraq and Afghanistan? This year he authored a bill to provide expanded coverage for those purchases. If you purchased body armor or other safety equipment for use in Iraq or Afghanistan between September 11, 2001 and July 31, 2004, you might be eligible for reimbursement.

Download the Defense Department's Reimbursement Form DD-2902. Air Force Discharging 4500 Personnel"

[HuffleClaw]

61. SOME are even, in their blind subservience to bush

claiming this to be untrue. 'but the troops don't like wearing 'em!' is the claim. yeah, and plenty don't LIKE to wear seatbelts either, but they do because they'd rather endure a bit of discomfort than go flying through the windshield.

[Voltaire99]

62. The greater pity...

...is invading and destroying an innocent country.

That's the issue--not body armor. Calling for an imperial army capable of even more viciousness is a non-starter. The nation is sick of war; think you can move beyond dressing up GI Joe?