US fighter jets kill 10 in northern Iraq

[sabra]

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/12/29/afx2418712.html

US fighter jets kill 10 in northern Iraq


BAGHDAD (AFX) - US fighter jets dropped two 500-pound bombs on suspected insurgents in a northern Iraq town, killing 10 people, the US military said in a statement today.

The F-16 jets were on a routine patrol near Hawija, southwest of the northern oil hub of Kirkuk on Tuesday when they noticed suspicious activity.

'The pilots saw three men digging holes near the road emplacing an IED,' said the statement, using the military's acronym for roadside bomb.

...

The vehicles attempted to hide 'by parking between two buildings' in a nearby village, but they were killed when the jets dropped their bombs -- 'While causing only minimal damage to the surrounding structures', it said.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. "Minimal damage to surrounding structures"

but no idea how many innocent people may have been nearby who were wounded or killed. Reminds me of the "smart bomb" they were designing that would kill all the people but leave the buildings intact.

[KansDem]

26. Could you be referring to the "neutron bomb?"

Reminds me of the "smart bomb" they were designing that would kill all the people but leave the buildings intact.

"According to <Sam> Cohen, one possible tactic of using such "true" neutron bombs is therefore to launch them as defensive weapons against armored attacks. Civilians enter fallout shelters, and the bomb is exploded 10 km over the armored attack. Portable armor is said to be unable to shield tank and aircraft crews. In such an event, a city's trees and grass would have been killed by radiation, but buildings would remain undamaged for the emerging civilians (who would however have to wait several days for certain short-lived isotopes to decay). Such neutron bombs would be very potent anti-ship weapons. A major supporter of Cohen's research was the U.S. Navy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. Yep

I always figured those who wanted such a weapon lacked a few neutrons in their compassion compartment......

[Xenotime]

39. Again, more people die...

I think I found the WMD...They were strapped to the bottom of those fighters.

[Thorandmjolnir]

2. Can someone explain this to me:

I have never been a fighter pilot so I really don't know. But is it possible for a fighter pilot in an F-16 to fly over an area, see three men on the ground, see that they are burying a device the size of a shoe box (IEDs are relatively small) see where they are going, in what cars and then make the bombing?

Again, I don't know, but I thought an F-16 flew pretty fast, and had to be at a certain altitude, both for security but also not to totally make everyone on the ground deaf.

Just asking.

[hack89]

4. The targeting pods that F16's carry have very good optics

that would allow them to see small objects from altitude.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20051216.aspx

[wtmusic]

9. Oh come off it

An F-16 flying at 600mph could make a definitive assessment that some men digging a hole by the road were planting an IED?

No, not really. Much easier to just "engage them" and say they were... :eyes:

[IA_Seth]

12. Lol

Yes, really.

The advanced optics and targeting equipment on our modern F-16s is more than enough to scout, identify, and target men digging a hole for an IED.

Those are facts.

Whether or not it happened the way they said it did is something you or I don't know, but it would be possible.

[wtmusic]

14. Ha! Of Course! Our Modern F-16s can even Read the Intent

of the men using Our Advanced Intent Scouting and Gathering Software (AISGS) which would determine that the hole was for planting a bomb in a matter of seconds!

Excuse me...my surplus Bullshit Justification for Destruction of Civilians Detector (BJDCD) is going off...isn't technology wonderful?

[IA_Seth]

21. 'Nuff said

Someone who automatically assumes troops are there to seek and destroy civilians isn't someone to bother with, IMO of course.

An open mind would do wonders.

[wtmusic]

23. straw man

Troops do not seek to destroy civilians. They just don't really give a crap if it happens.

[Dharma_Bum]

35. They care ...

... Trust me, I was there.

[wtmusic]

36. Then they don't care enough

if they're dropping 500-lb bombs on a building to kill three or four men, and killing 20 civs in the process.

Are Iraqi lives worth less than ours?

[hack89]

15. Who said they were at 600 knots?

a wide turn at at 250 knots would provide a perfectly stable platform for a good look. If the IED consisted of 152mm artillery shells (commonly used to take out US armored vehicles) it would be very easy to identify it as an IED.

[wtmusic]

17. true...and no doubt the Iraqis would be placing it in the hole

in broad daylight as an F-16 circled lazily in the sky above. Maybe "IED" was written on it in large letters too.

Or maybe our Brave Troops decided it was a hell of a lot easier to take out someone digging a hole by the road than to definitively find out why, knowing that no one would ever find out.

Get real.

[hack89]

20. Where does it say it was daytime? nt

[wtmusic]

22. Push it as far as you like, I'll play along

OK it's nightime...an F-16 is circling at 250 knots (silently, using Top Secret Engine Noise Suppressors) and infrared, it sees Iraqis digging a hole by the road. The IED, which is at ambient temperature (unless the insurgents thoughtfully warmed it up ahead of time) is invisible to infrared. We're back where we started.

THERE IS NO WAY an observer in an F-16 could determine conclusively that people on the ground are planting a bomb. There are limits to resolution just as there are limits to the Iraqis' naivete about being detected. And never the twain shall meet.

It's possible they were planting a bomb. Is that the standard of proof we're going to accept--someone flying by in a jet? Would we accept that as proof of guilt in the US? Of course not. Therein lies the hypocrisy, the double standard, the racism, that somehow our lives are worth more than theirs.

As long as we proceed in this way of thinking we're fucked.

[hack89]

25. Ok - if you say so. n/t

[TroglodyteScholar]

41. Seems you already had your mind made up.

It's one thing to be anti-war, but quit simply assuming that _everything_ our soldiers do is careless and gratuitous. Are you going to spit on them when they come home?

[truthInCO]

38. Optics

They can see the heat signature of an "insurgent" ripping a greasy fart. Believe it.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi truthInCO!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[daleo]

34. Well, they couldn't identify a platoon of Canadians in Afghanistan. n/t

[951-Riverside]

18. How the hell would they know where to look to begin with?

[0007]

3. Why wouldn't the pilot call to ground forces and have the situation

checked out, instead of dropping two five hundred pounds bombs and not knowing for certain who or what they're destroying. Perhaps their own?

[rfkrfk]

7. you never know the full story,

could be something like,

unmanned airplane 'sees' something funny,
with a ground unit very close, ensuing firefight,
some enemy try to escape, but are followed by unmanned plane,
F-16s show up

[wtmusic]

10. Because their lives are worth less than ours

and the risk involved simply wouldn't be worth it for our Brave Troops.

[0007]

11. So the pilot dropping those bombs doesn't know if these guy

may be American hostages or mercenaries?

[MountainLaurel]

16. Pretty much n/t

[sabra]

5. update: Iraqi police officer has a different version to story...

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29605597.htm

DULUIYA - Four suspected insurgents were killed when U.S. forces dropped a 500 lb bomb on a building near Dhuluiya, 40 km (25 miles) north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said. The military said the suspects had tried to attack a U.S. patrol before fleeing into the building. One insurgent was wounded and another detained, the military said.

An Iraqi police officer at Duluiya's police station disputed the U.S. account and said three civilians including a woman and a five-year old girl were killed during the airstrike. Nine others including two women were wounded, he said.

[Thorandmjolnir]

6. Interesting

Story 1)

BAGHDAD (AFX) - US fighter jets dropped two 500-pound bombs on suspected insurgents in a northern Iraq town, killing 10 people, the US military said in a statement today.

The F-16 jets were on a routine patrol near Hawija, southwest of the northern oil hub of Kirkuk on Tuesday when they noticed suspicious activity.

'The pilots saw three men digging holes near the road placing an IED,' said the statement, using the military's acronym for roadside bomb.

Story 2)

DULUIYA - Four suspected insurgents were killed when U.S. forces dropped a 500 lb bomb on a building near Dhuluiya, 40 km (25 miles) north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said. The military said the suspects had tried to attack a U.S. patrol before fleeing into the building. One insurgent was wounded and another detained, the military said.



Am I the only one who noticed how radically different the two stories are? One says the pilot observed some people burying a device. The other talks about an attack on a U.S Patrol.

:think:

[primavera]

8. So who were the other seven people killed?

The article references three guys who were suspected of planting an explosive device, but says ten people were killed. So who were the other seven? That would certainly be some collateral damage ratio to be proud of: for every three hostiles we kill, we kill seven innocent bystanders? I'm so proud, I could weep. :cry:

[saigon68]

13. "WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS"

One dead corpse at a time

or in this case 7 or 10

[gratuitous]

19. "The vehicles attempted to hide"

"The vehicles attempted to hide 'by parking between two buildings' in a nearby village." Two things occur to me: How to distinguish between an attempt at concealment and some folks who were going to two buildings to conduct legitimate business; and considering the outcome of this action, whether the drivers of the vehicles were bad guys or not, trying to hide from American fighter jets might not be a bad choice since it seems they'll drop bombs on you, regardless.

[cantstandbush]

24. "killing ten people..." Prabably innocent civilians. The US sucks!

[l.a.fireman]

28. ? bad statement

The u.s. sucks? Well, i for one love this country. And i thank god everyday that im an american. Yes we can not support the pres and his agenda but jeez. It is a war either we kill the ememy or they kill us. get a grip. I dont associate the military to any president.they are seperate. I support the u.s. military after all without it we would not be free and most of the free world would not be either.

[saigon68]

29. Adios

[Thorandmjolnir]

30. Who is the enemy?

Just who is the enemy?

It does not seem like the pilot really knew who he was shooting at.

[Bridget Burke]

32. "Freedom isn't Free"

You left out one catchphrase....

[leftchick]

37. cuz freedom isn't free right?

and I suppose we are fighting them there so we don't fight them here??

:eyes:

[maryallen]

31. Ten here, ten there ... what's a life or two?

(sarcasm)

At this stage of the game, dropping a 500-pound bomb seems to me OVERKILL, as in WAR CRIMES!

[daleo]

33. So, were the nearby buildings empty?

How would the military know that anyway?

Three people were spotted, possibly burying an IED and ten people are killed by a five hundred pound bomb. The other seven probably were innocent bystanders. That's how it reads to me.