Brotherhood chief: Holocaust a myth (Egypt)

[bemildred]

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood, the main opposition force in Egypt's parliament, has echoed Iran's president in describing the Holocaust as a myth.

"Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned," Mohamed Akef said in a statement on Thursday.

Akef cited as evidence of Western intolerance the cases of Roger Garoudy, the writer who was convicted in France in 1998 of questioning the Holocaust, and David Irving, a British historian who faces similar charges in Austria next month.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, caused an international uproar when he said in a speech on 14 December that the Holocaust was a myth.

al Jazeera

[bemildred]

1. Oh yeah.

:popcorn:

[pagandem4justice]

5. Let me put my feet up. (nt)

:silly: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Colorado Blue]

28. You think this is popcorn fare? You can't imagine the agony

this is inflicting.

And it will lead to nothing good. That I can promise.

[Skip Intro]

2. Its a crime to question the Holocaust? Thoughtcrime?

Sorry, I've seen footage all my life that I had to turn away from. I read and seen reports and documentaries. I don't doubt something like the Holocaust happened.

But I got a big problem with people being convicted for questioning a particular belief.

Could deniers of the official 9*11 story be jailed in 50 yrs? Are there people that would like to see that happen, the sooner the better?

Oh no, I've said too much.

[Jim Sagle]

3. Yeah, you have. Or maybe you haven't thought it through.

These laws are not for America, they're for Germany and other European nations that feel they have to suppress certain doctrines that ALREADY destroyed their nations and half the world.

A little humility about telling the rest of the world how to implement democracy wouldn't hurt.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

7. Yes, Austria is one where it is a crime to deny the reality of

the Holocaust. It was also right in the heart of the whole thing.

If the Holocaust is a myth, I guess all my relatives who were never heard from again went on a permanent vacation, along with all the other millions.

The Nazi, or neo-Nazi movement periodically resurfaces in Europe. And the danger of this fanatical, racist, bigoted, genocidal movement is what is being guarded against.

Even right after the war, there were attempts to deny the holocaust. Even in the face of the concentration camps which were witnessed by so many of our own troops as they liberated them.

There is a lesson there that nobody wants to learn more than some of the nations that were very close to the whole mess.

Other remnants of the second world war are that Japan and Germany have rarely if ever engaged their own troops in any battle since that time.

Except I think Germany might have had some in Iraq.

Gropenator's daddy was, I believe affiliated with the N's, in Austria.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

40. When you stigmatize an idea, you give it power.

Something that some people apparently haven't learned from history.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

46. Its scapegoating really.

People would like to pretend that it was something special about Hitler, something special about Nazism, something special about Germany that was to blame for the holocaust. Believing this allows one to continue to pretend that 'it cant happen here' or that 'we are different'.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

52. I think Hitler was something special. Holy shit. I do not

believe my ears.

[K-W]

38. Oh so in Europe people dont have rights?

Supporting the right of ALL human beings to the freedom of expression is not 'telling the rest of the world how to implement democracy'

Some of us think of them as human rights, not american rights.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DaveinMD]

4. something like the holocaust?

the holocaust happened. Not something like it.

[Pavulon]

12. No, Like being a member of the KKK

or the morons who say the us government used demo charges to bring down the towers, it just makes you an ass.

The holocaust is well documented by the germans. They kept great records.

I like it when people come out with these opinions, it makes it easier to spot the assholes and space cadets.

To be clear I understand what you are saying and am not saying you are an ass.

[David Zephyr]

15. What on earth sort of "point" are you trying to make?

Why would you bring the subject of a "thoughtcrime" in a thread that has to do with this story about an asshole, hatemonger denying the Holocaust?

What was you point?

[Skip Intro]

26. Thanks for asking. I'll reply.

I started off by saying that I didn't know - that I only have images of what I've seen on tv. I'm no scholar, I dont really know the history. I only became truly politically aware during the 92 electon. Everything else was a vague history. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. For me, the present demands my focus, and always has. I think that's pretty common. That's what I was trying to say in the first paragraph of my post. But that wasn't the point of the post.

I was motivated to post my reaction to this, from the article snip in the op:

"...the writer who was convicted in France in 1998 of questioning the Holocaust, and David Irving, a British historian who faces similar charges in Austria next month."

I reacted to that - it shocked me that people could be imprisoned for saying something. That's what I was getting at. That was my point. That's where "thoughtcrime" came in. Once I read that line, that was all I saw.

Thanks to the poster who wondered if I had thought it thru. And to you for asking me what I meant. I'm sorry some felt the need to react to my post the way they have. Really too bad, and really off base.

[K-W]

39. And such draconian speach and press laws only add fuel to fire.

Much like US foriegn policy adds feul to the Islamist fire.

The US's criminal foriegn policy doesnt make terrorism ok, but the fact that Osama can point to real life examples of western brutality and aggression only helps his cause.

In the same vien, the fact that in some countries holocaust deniers are prosecuted for thier speech and writing means that anti semites can point to real life examples of silencing deniers in arguing for thier fabricated zionist conspiricy theory.

If Britian and France are really so frightened of deniers there must be something to it right? (of course not, but this is how some people think)

In the US we dont have to prosecute them, they are marginalized by public opinion and cant use government oppression as a PR tool.

[applegrove]

6. Seems like our islamic radical friends have been studying PNAC

theory of myth-making. :puke:

[Behind the Aegis]

8. does it matter?

It seems this type of rhetoric is excused by a few.

[PsychoDad]

11. I fear such ideas will only grow....

As time separates us further from the events. :(

Even our own president may be of the mind that it didn't happen as recorded by history. given his question to a tour guide when he visited Awschwitz...

iirc, something like "people believe you when you tell them this"?

Sounds like he was pretty incredulous, doesn't it.

Peace.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

22. Incredulous or something

gramps Prescott was a war profiteer.

[onager]

9. Bwah! How ironic! (Reporting from Egypt...)

I'm not sure how much coverage the recent Egyptian Parliamentary elections got in the West. I came over here (to Egypt) to work in October, when they were just starting. The election rounds went on for 2 months, using a weirdly complex formula reminiscent of elections in Florida or Ohio. i.e., apparently designed to make sure as few citizens as possible actually voted. (I spent most of 2005 in Egypt, partly in Cairo and mostly in Alexandria...where I am currently enjoying the Joyous Holiday Season.)

In the last Parliament, the Muslim Brotherhood held 15 seats. They now control 88 seats.

They ran under a big handicap. In the phrase ALWAYS associated with the Brotherhood in the local media, they are a "banned-but-tolerated" political party. (WTF? Shouldn't they be either one or the other?)

Because of that, their candidates had to run as independents. They succeeded largely because of a total collapse among the other secularist political parties in Egypt, who fell to bickering instead of forming a coalition against the Muslim Brotherhood and the eternally ruling National Democratic Party. Roundup of The Usual Suspects by the government didn't help either.

The Brotherhood election slogan: "Islam is the solution." (Grumpy Atheist must retort: "Only if you don't have a f!cking clue what the problem is.")

The irony? During the election campaigns, the Brotherhood seriously moderated their basic radical-Islamic hard-line philosophy. Their candidates spoke soothingly of using "persuasion, not coercion" in forcing women to cover themselves completely. (Most Egyptian Muslim women wear the hijab, the head covering. But not the full veil-and-gloves outfit that I saw on most women in Saudi Arabia, where I lived for 2 years.) The Brotherhood blathered about "more freedom for the people, under strict Islamic law"--an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

And now, after all that talk about "moderation" and "freedom," one of their leaders spouts those tired old lies about the Holocaust. That will guarantee the Brotherhood gets some international attention, though happily NOT the sort they wanted.

It reminds me of a recent quote I saw in the local press, from an Egyptian woman who is a lawyer with a long history of fighting for women's rights: "I'm glad they won. Now everyone will see what liars they are."

(If you don't know much about the Brotherhood, a google should educate you...unless you stumble across one of their propaganda websites. They have been one of the most radical Islamic groups since their formation in 1920. Banned for years in Egypt, Anwar Sadat unleashed them against "radical leftist" Egyptian student groups in the 1970s. The Brotherhood repaid Sadat by assassinating him. One of his assassins, a long-time M.B. leader who served a jail term in Egypt, was Ayman al-Zawahari--currently famous as a close adviser to Osama bin Laden.)

edited for Anal Retentive spelling and style reasons...

[bemildred]

10. Thank you for your testimony.

The only thing I found interesting in this story was that this loon felt free to spout these incoherent ramblings now. The fundies seem to be spouting off all over the Middle East, which I take as an indicator of how our War on Terror in Iraq and elsewhere is going.

[Wordie]

13. It's also quite relevant, imo, that al Jazeera stated this, quite clearly:

An estimated six million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945.

I pray that the moderates in the ME will ultimately prevail. I agree with your last statement: we didn't help matters when we invaded Iraq.

[bemildred]

23. The Nazi's activities are well attested and documented.

It requires a certain willfull ignorance to deny them, but this
fellow is thinking about his political interest rather than any
matters of historical accuracy.

Al Jazeera is as good a news source as any, in my estimation, a
very useful site.

[Wordie]

24. Yes,

even if those Nazi activities are just not as well known in Iran, he surely should have gotten the message by now.

[David Zephyr]

16. Thanks for your helpful and informative post, onager .

:thumbsup:

[Colorado Blue]

29. Thank you - interesting and informative post. nt.

[rman]

57. Conformation per Reuters (fascists gain power in Egypt parliament)

(per Yahoo, per google cache)

Disclaimer: Reuters does not confirm the fascist part. Other sources do though.


Brotherhood Wins 12 Egypt Parliament Seats
By JASPER MORTIMER, Associated Press Writer Thu Dec 8, 4:56 AM ET
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:Jnfxju39UoYJ:news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/egypt_elections_16+egypt+parliament+seats&hl=en&lr=lang_nl|lang_en|lang_de|lang_es&client=firefox-a


CAIRO, Egypt - Preliminary results in Egypt's elections gave the leading opposition group, the Muslim Brotherhood, a record 19 percent of the seats in parliament after a four-week election with unprecedented political violence.

The results — released privately Thursday by an official in the Interior Ministry, which oversaw the election — came a day after at least eight people were killed as police battled to stop voters reaching polling stations in Muslim Brotherhood strongholds.

<snip>

If those results are confirmed, the tolls from Wednesday's runoffs would give the ruling NDP and its allies 333 seats, or 73 percent of parliament, and the Brotherhood 88 seats. Other opposition parties and independents would have 21 seats. Twelve seats are undecided and reruns are expected to be held. The parliament holds 454 seats, 10 of which are appointed by the president.

<snip>

Under U.S. pressure to bring about democratic reform, Mubarak gave the Brotherhood unusual leeway in the campaign, but his security forces cracked down after the first round of polling on Nov. 9 when it became evident that the Islamic group had far more popular support than expected.

<more>

=========

This is especially troublesome given the overt flirting and historic ties of the Muslim Brotherhood with nazism/fascism.

See this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2003354#2007216

[David Zephyr]

14. What a sick f*%@king statement!

It is simply incredible how people choose to be ignorant and prefer to cuddle with their hate rather than open their minds to fact.

I can't believe that it is 2006 and we still have this orchestrated denial of the Holocaust.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

17. My question is, why are they saying these things?

Clearly they are living in some kind of fantasy land, but why?

[Colorado Blue]

30. I think they're trying to consolidate power. Stirring up nasty

old hateful lies, focusing anger on the Usual Suspect, is useful politically and it has the added benefit of keeping peoples' minds off the real world problems of jobs, womens' and minority rights, modernization and reconciliation with the West and of course, reform, especially within dictatorial or theocratic governments and ESPECIALLY within the fundamentalist Islamist worldview.

This really frightens me. It's as though the worst nightmares of the Nazis have found a new voice. We have enough of this sort of hatred in the West - the Nazi philosophy never really died. There is so much of this sort of thing on the 'net, neonazis and White Supremacists spout the same self-justification and denial, though the motives are different here.

But the same people will be victimized, again, either way.

[ny_liberal]

18. why I am not surprised?

nt

[madmark]

19. Ironically, the people who tend to doubt this bit of history are

usually the ones that would least mind seeing it repeated.

[Josh]

34. Spot on

Excellent post.

[Peace Patriot]

20. I don't know about banning crazy talk, like "the Holocaust is a myth."

The U.S. government and the early U.S. pioneers (including the fabled '49ers') committed genocide against Native Americans. Talk of it was fairly verboten in the first half of the 20th century, then began to be discussed--and some recompense done--in the latter half. But there is still some psychological denial about it in our culture. So, consider this: what if--after the facts of the genocide emerged--a "politically correct" government in the U.S. had made an exception to the First Amendment, and had banned any public denial of their having been a genocide campaign against Native Americans?

I just don't buy it. I can understand doing that, but I think it's wrong--and counter-productive. The thing to do is let the lunatics rave, and then show the film "Night and Fog."

But you know what? This Bush junta and its loony Neo-Cons are turning rationality and the concept of "evidence" on its head, on many other matters. They manufactured the "evidence" to justify their invasion of Iraq and their slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people, and the torture of many more. They deny overwhelming evidence of global warming, and do political re-writes of scientific reports. And their idiotic, hypocritical "Christian" supporters deny the overwhelming evidence in support of the theory of evolution.

What should we expect from this, except irrational statements from our "enemies"--especially those who would manipulate populations with less access to objective information than we have? Demagoguery and the "Big Lie" are running amok in BushWorld. Should it surprise us when it rears its head in a culture that the Bush junta has targeted for torture and hatred and pre-emptive war?

I have thought for a long time that Israel has made a "pact with Devil" in their coziness with the Bush junta. If we have a nuclear exchange in the Middle East, as a result of this extremism and militarism on both sides, the Middle East will not be a pleasant place to live, and we may all die as a consequence. (See Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark," for the impacts to our atmosphere of even a limited nuclear exchange. Hint: all life on earth will die.)

I don't like what's developing here: Israel barricading itself with walls, like an armed medieval fortress, and the US military in the hands of what I consider to be madmen, killing tens of thousands of people and threatening to kill more, making Israel's hostile or unfriendly neighbors paranoid, and more hostile. It is not good.

As for the WTC having been demolished, rather than succumbing to two planes hitting the upper stories, I think that the evidence for demolition is quite strong, and certainly worthy of a public inquiry. (The Bushite report on how the towers fell is full of holes, and not believable.) I also think that the failure of NORAD and the US Air Force to follow standard operating procedure on that day, and on that day only, also deserves much more investigation. I have not had a satisfactory answer on that. I want to know why they did not even take the first step in defending our nation's capitol--with nearly an hour's notice and one of the planes heading to DC (a flyby of the off-course aircraft and eye contact).

Bush/Cheney's stonewalling of the 9/11 Commission--their attempt to stop it altogether--and their refusal to testify without being together, and their insistence on no notes and no recording devices, on only a select few being present, and no taking of a oath to tell the truth--are all highly suspicious circumstances.

I think there is plenty of good reason to question the official 9/11 story, and to be very worried about our safety in the absence of a thorough investigation. (The 9/11 widows, whose pressure was the ONLY reason that ANY investigation was mounted, are not at all happy with the result.)

The Bush junta does not inspire confidence, to say the least. And so, is it any wonder--with many people here in this country having grave doubts about this junta's competence, its legitimacy, and its criminal negligence, or worse--and very rightfully feeling lied to on many, many issues, that people might be peddling delusions that the Holocaust never occurred? We are living in a time of deliberately created illusions and delusions--in some segments of both American and Islamic culture, and in American culture, it's coming from the top.

I think the Iranian who first voiced this, a few days ago, was caught in the middle between trying to deny the Holocaust and at the same time blaming the Holocaust (rightfully) on European countries. He was saying that, since it was the Europeans who harmed the Jews, why hadn't they given a chunk of THEIR lands to the Israelis, rather than take it from Palestinians? That part of his statement had a certain logic to it, but it was the logic of 60 years ago!

It seems like everybody in this situation will not face reality, and deal with reality, now. What is the common good NOW? What can bring peace--and prevent a SECOND holocaust--NOW? Where is wisdom? Where is diplomacy? Where are the intelligent, wise people that we need? Where are the true representatives of the interests of most people--whom, I'm sure, want peace and justice? Remove the war profiteers and the mad men, and peace and justice are not so hard to achieve. But we let the mad men run on, and trumpet their mad or incendiary or irrelevant statements far and wide. And we just gave the war profiteers one hundred billion more dollars to pad their pockets with.

How do we de-escalate this extremely dangerous situation--with Israel paranoid, and her neighbors paranoid, and the Bush junta and its war profiteers rubbing their hands and salivating over the prospect of slaughtering Iranians and Syrians, 99% of whom undoubtedly want peace and justice, and a good life, like the rest of us?

[Peace Patriot]

21. P.S. I just want to add that I consider the U.S. bombing and invasion of..

...Iraq to be a holocaust. The British doctors' report estimated the number at one hundred thousand, from the initial bombings and invasion alone. But even Bush's figure, 30,000 (if you want to believe that liar) is genocide. What will happen now, among the Kurds, Shias and Sunnis--as a result of U.S.-instigated war--and/or with the invasion or nuking of Iran/Syria, is horrifying to think of. So I should have said, not "how can we prevent a second holocaust?," but rather, "how can we stop the one that has already begun?".

[Josh]

25. Well sorry, but you're wrong -

genocide is the systematic attempt to wipe out a race or group of people, who are being targeted specifically.

I don't dispute that there are thousands of innocent civilians being killed in Iraq, but I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that they were specifically being targeted systematically, as opposed to being shot at randomly during all hours of the day and having errant bombs dropped on them.

The Holocaust was a genocide because it was Jews (and also Gypsies) who were being targeted for systematic extermination - because they were Jews. This was to the extent that they were actually rounded up en masse and executed.

I'm against the war in Iraq, too, but if we start calling things like that a "Holocaust" we forget just how serious the original was.

My grandmother died last week. If she hadn't had the courage to live through three concentration camps, lose all but two members of her family (6 sisters, parents, cousins, etc.), have her husband killed, and then make it through to start all over again after the war, I wouldn't be here. And I think she'd have something to say about what constitutes a "Holocaust" and what doesn't.

[wickerwoman]

27. Genocide vs. Holocaust

I agree that Iraq isn't genocide, but you can make a case that it is a holocaust. A holocaust is a "great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire" a "massive slaughter" or a "sacrificial offering consumed by flames." As many as 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died. We can quibble about the numbers, but that sounds like a massive slaughter to me. Factor in the casualities of DU exposure over the next hundred years or so, and I don't think "holocaust" is hyperbole.

[Josh]

32. I think it's the spirit of the definition that's important here -

the original poster was saying words to the effect of, "Rather than saying, 'this might turn into another Holocaust', I say, 'it already IS a second holocaust.'"

So here's my point: if we're going to say that the ONE event that we can all agree on as a "Holocaust" was the massive Nazi exterminations of the 1930s and 40s, then I think considering what is happening now in Iraq as a candidate for only the second RECOGNISED "Holocaust" does a fairly massive disservice to those who died in the Nazi Germany Holocaust.

Furthermore if we are going to look for candidates for a Second Holocaust, I think there are more horrific and terrifying and destructive events that would qualify, such as some of the work inflicted by regimes over the years in Cambodia, Rwanda, and other places that we often ignore.

I get that what's happening in Iraq is awful, but I don't think it's the second worst humanitarian extermination on record, regardless of the "massive slaughter" that is going on.

[K-W]

41. But you are the one butchering the definition.

First you respond to someone using the word holocaust as if they had used the word genocide, when the two words are not the same thing.

the original poster was saying words to the effect of, "Rather than saying, 'this might turn into another Holocaust', I say, 'it already IS a second holocaust.'"

Where was the term 'second holocaust' used exactly?


So here's my point: if we're going to say that the ONE event that we can all agree on as a "Holocaust" was the massive Nazi exterminations of the 1930s and 40s,

And if we all agreed that the new name for blue was red, we could call the sky red. Of course we could pretend that the word holocaust only referred to Nazi Germany, but that simply isnt the case in reality.

then I think considering what is happening now in Iraq as a candidate for only the second RECOGNISED "Holocaust" does a fairly massive disservice to those who died in the Nazi Germany Holocaust.

Huh? Recognized holocaust? What on earth does that mean?

There is no such thing as recognized holocaust, and you need to do ALOT of studying of history if you think this is only the second time the word has been used.

And you are wrong. Using the word holocaust correctly does a disservice to noone.

Furthermore if we are going to look for candidates for a Second Holocaust,

Why would we do something as stupid as that? ( You do realize that there have been more than two mass slaughters in history?)

I think there are more horrific and terrifying and destructive events that would qualify, such as some of the work inflicted by regimes over the years in Cambodia, Rwanda, and other places that we often ignore.

Lets just ignore the ONGOING slaughter in Iraq being carried out by OUR government and focus on Cambodia and Rwanda, great idea.

[K-W]

43. The term 'nuclear holocaust' springs to mind.

As a clear example that the word is not only used to describe the Nazis' actions.

[Josh]

51. That's the point, though - we haven't *had* a nuclear holocaust

And we have only in history ever referred to ONE event AS a holocaust.

Of course there have been mass slaughters - I mentioned that. And then you said "Lets just ignore the ONGOING slaughter in Iraq being carried out by OUR government and focus on Cambodia and Rwanda, great idea." Are you associating what's going on in Iraq with these obvious genocides? Do you really think US troops are engaged in deliberate wholesale slaughter of Iraqi civilians based on ethnicity over there?

All I said was that given that we only refer to one event in history as a holocaust (and I don't think we count a 'nuclear holocaust' given that it's only something we mentioned as a product of MAD, in textbooks, or in Terminator 2) then perhaps equating what's going on in Iraw now with The Holocaust is a bit of a stretch and not a very fair thing to do given the vast, horrific differences.

As for your earlier question about where the original poster mentioned a "second holocaust" anywhere in their post, I thought for a second that maybe I did indeed use the word "second" on my own accord, having seen their referring to Iraq as "a holocaust."

Sure enough, though, I'm not imagining things:
"So I should have said, not "how can we prevent a second holocaust?," but rather, "how can we stop the one that has already begun?"." Now if Peace Patriot believes that Iraq comes second only to the Holocaust, then I can't help that. But I don't think it qualifies for the definition that we've only used for one historical EVENT.

I for one have always been extremely wary of comparing anything with the Holocaust. That's all.

Cheers.

[wickerwoman]

63. Simply not true.

"And we have only in history ever referred to ONE event AS a holocaust."

Read the Bible. Abraham's almost sacrifice of Isaac is described as a holocaust. It was only one person and he didn't even kill him. Sacrificing sheep to Roman Gods by burning was referred to as a holocaust. It happened almost every week in the ancient world. The Nazi's genocide of the Jews being described as a "holocaust" is a metaphor. Most weren't literally burned or literally sacrificed to God. It's poetic license. You don't get to strip the word of it's original meaning just because it's often applied to one situation.

You need to distinguish between "a holocaust" and "the Holocaust". " A holocaust" small h just means a sacrifice by burning or a slaughter of many people. That's it's literal meaning. And in non-metaphoric terms what's happening in Iraq is actually closer to the literal definition of a holocaust than what happened in Germany.

So I agree that there was only one Holocaust, but not that you can restrict the meaning of an word just because you've forgotten where it comes from.

[Josh]

64. Okay, one event in modern history -

but I take your point.

Cheers.

[rman]

56. I think it's the number of people that died that's important,

not to mention the injured and the traumatized.

[Josh]

33. Deleted - dupe

eom

[rman]

55. It not being systematic does not make it any less of a crime.

According to international law the US invasion of Iraq is a war of agression, which is considered to be the worst of all war crimes.

[TankLV]

59. To try to claim that the WTC collapsed by anything other than the effects

of the planes is utter fantasy and irrational inventive conspiracy loonacy.

The evidence is OVERWHELMING that the planes and the fuel, plus the unique construction of the towers, bundled tubes - exterior "skin" served as the second set of column support with the interior central core leaving the entire floor column-free - so it's quite LOGICAL that when the planes took out almost 1/3 to 1/2 half of the structural suppor, that the towers would collapse.

Of course, some people prefer to leave their heads burried in their butts despite all the overwhelming evidence all around them.

[fshrink]

31. For religious people,

which includes all brands and flavors, everything is a myth. The mythos against the logos.

[bemildred]

35. Brotherhood: 'myth does not mean denial'

The leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has said that when he called the Holocaust a myth this week, he did not mean to say it never happened but wanted to highlight the West's attitude toward democracy.

---

But on Saturday, his office said: "Some media gave this a meaning which he did not intend a denial that the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis during World War Two happened. The fact is that he did not deny that it took place."

West's double standards

"He brought up the case of Garaudy ... to contrast it with the West's disregard for the victims of the Zionist state and its daily crimes against the Palestinians.

"He cited that as evidence of the West's policy of a double standard and of the democracy of exclusion which it practises on a wide scale."

al Jazeera

[savemefromdumbya]

42. Ask him where my grandparents went?

It's easy for them to say but I fear that this is just asking for trouble and a gift for those little neocons to invade Iran and Egypt.

[jokerman93]

47. Do we know who the enemy is?

Maybe (probably) not Islam, Muhammed, or the writ of the Koran. There are other facts and I really wonder if we need to consider them more carefully.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0508/opinion/dalin.html

[bemildred]

49. Personally, I don't think any of this has to do with Islam.

I mean nothing. But it's a convenient red herring,
religion always is.

[jokerman93]

50. I'm inclined to agree

The threat of a Muslim pan-nationalist movement isn't that Islam is a faith of hate and terror - it isn't - but that the racist malignancy of "nazism" has taken up residence within the religion - occupying it, so to speak, like a parasite. And sadly, the neocons are playing right into their hands by either obscuring, ignoring or being ignorant of the reality of the situation. We'll never know, will we?

I feel America needs a national debate on the nature of this so-called war on terror and who the players really are. We can start with PNAC and the political cult of the religious right here in America, then move on to the true political character of the so-called "Muslim terrorists".

Red herring indeed. Enough to go around for all, I'd say.

I doubt the facts will ever be aired though. The emerging truth of the situation could be shocking to people who've been raised on the jingoistic pop-propaganda that passes for news, history AND religion in this country.

Here's some other links on the subject a friend sent me. Thought I'd pass them on for any who might be interested.

Nazi Roots of Palestinian Nationalism http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/03-08-05/NaziRootsOfPalestinianNationalism.htm

Haj Amin Husseini, the Nazi Palestinian Leader of World War II http://www.faoa.org/journal/HajjHusseini.html

Nazism & the Rise of Arab Nationalism http://www.kesser.org/essays/arab-nationalism.html

The Syrian-Iraqi Baath party and its Nazi beginnings http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/baath.html

Popularity of "Mein Kampf" in the Arab Middle East http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/eng_n/pro_10_05_e.htm

[Colorado Blue]

53. Thank you. I hope people take your suggestion and READ.

[WinkyDink]

61. But the Koran DOES call Jews "dogs and pigs".

Read it with my own eyes.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. I doubt you've read it at all...

Where in the Q'uran is that particular quote in it's entirety?

Violet...

[rman]

54. Muslim Brotherhood nazi connections go way back:

The Muslim Brotherhood
Precursor to Today's Islamic Terroist Organizations

“Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood

The Muslim Brotherhood began was founded in Egypt in 1928 by Hassan al BANNA as a youth organization with the primary objectives of moral and social reform throughout Islam. The movement extended to Syria where one branch founded in 1935 (the Aleppo branch) became the Syrian headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood. The organization then expanded its social-political involvement and became the known as the Party of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizb Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimoon. Al-BANNA was a devout admirer of Adolf Hitler when he was a writer and before his rise to power. Al BANNA wrote supportive letters to Hitler and as a result, Hitler's requested that Nazi intelligence contact AL BANNA for the purpose of working together. Hitler enlisted Al-BANNA to establish a spy network for Nazi Germany throughout the Arabian Peninsula. The Nazi-Muslim alliance became such that Al-BANNA promised Hitler that when the Nazi's arrived Cairo and Alexandria, the Muslim Brotherhood would ensure that all of the British troops would be killed.
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/muslimbrotherhood.asp


...This year a friend of mine from the CIA, named Bob Baer, wrote a very good book about Saudi Arabia and terrorism; it's called Sleeping with the Devil.1 I was reading the book and I got about a third of the way through and I stopped. Bob was writing about when he worked for the CIA and how bad the files were. He said, for example, the files for the Muslim Brotherhood were almost nothing. There were just a few newspaper clippings.
I called Bob up and said, "Bob, that's wrong. The CIA has enormous files on the Muslim Brotherhood, volumes of them. I know because I read them a quarter of a century ago."
He said, "What do you mean?"
Here's how you can find all of the missing secrets about the Muslim Brotherhood—and you can do this, too.
I said, "Bob, go to your computer and type two words into the search part. Type the word 'Banna', B-a-n-n-a."
He said, "Yeah."
"Type in 'Nazi'."
Bob typed the two words in, and out came 30 to 40 articles from around the world. He read them and called me back and said, "Oh my God, what have we done?"
What I'm doing today is doing what I'm doing now: I'm educating a new generation in the CIA that the Muslim Brotherhood was a fascist organisation that was hired by Western Intelligence and evolved over time into what we today know as Al- Qa'ida .
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Fascist%20Roots%20of%20Al-Qaeda.html

google: Muslim Brotherhood fascist
http://www.google.com/search?q=Muslim+Brotherhood+fascist

google: Banna nazi
http://www.google.com/search?q=Banna+nazi

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

60. Meant to write "utter". Unable to edit. Also, I forgot about Junior Rev.

Graham.
Ah, well.
I guess I fear that this lie will become "truth" in another decade.

[dogfacedboy]

65. This entire thread serves to remind us

that Fundamentalist ANYTHING is fundamentally INSANE. Fundamentalist Islam, Christianity, etc. has NO place in government, anywhere, anytime. Period.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

66. Let's get something clear, here

The holocaust was terrible. Regardless what happened, how it happened, and to who, it should be respected. However, let's get another fact straight. Atrocities have existed since mankind has conceived the means to commit them. The united states is guilty of mass murdering 5000 civilians in the war on panama after they surrendered. Animal torturers make the holocaust, on scale and in torment, look like spit in the bucket. In past civilizations, look at what rome did to most of its prisoners? Vlad the impaler, how did he get his name? Just because it isn't widely blown up doesn't make it less of an atrocity, and instead of letting one or two disasters rule our life, we should keep strong to make it less out to be 'one country is HORRIBLE' than to admit every country does a wrong, to humans, plants, animals, and that it's not more right when it's done to a lesser scale, or to the underprivelaged. It wasn't right what america did to the slaves, the many that died on their boat trips to the US in those times, the way they were killed mercilessly when a master disfavored them.

There is no greater arrogance than to bitch about one atrocity without bitching about them all. Instead of whining about the holocaust we should expose EVERY nation, every time periods evils and damnit LEARN from them. It's NOT okay to recommit the holocaust to an animal, it's not okay to turn the other way when your own country does it, and hell, it's not okay to act like you were there when you weren't, then tell somebody they have less of a right to talk about their own disasters, their own concerns, and their own morals, because of something you weren't even effected by.

Everyone pretends they're fighting the good fight by berating people who say things like 'holocaust myth'. I don't think it was a myth, but it's absolutely no different than when we call other atrocities a myth, or act like they don't exist. So long as people are capable of ignoring torment, terror, and things like that, in ANY scale, history will repeat itself. For everyone who freaks out that someone calls the holocaust a myth -- how many times have you acknowledged the bloody history of your own country, your birthplace countries overseas, or historical places you may be related to? Stopping the bleeding can only happen when people admit that kind of thing, in any time, to any scale, to any individual, is wrong. You don't get extra browny points by making a stink over the holocaust and then not giving a crap when you hear about this or that.

It's easy to take a post like mine and disregard it as some lunatic saying it. As some hypocrite saying it. As some idealist or some extremist saying it. But does that make it any more right to deny the things we can make better every day, but do not? The way within our own country satan worshipping animal sacrificing cults still flourish, how human trafficking still flourishes, how homelessness still flourishes? From every single person who is tortured or killed in those ways, for every animal killed by sick fucks who just don't get it...it IS comparable to the holocaust. Yet...many DUers will look at this post and scoff. How could you truly claim to care about the holocaust if you don't care about the disasters RIGHT there in front of your face every day? Think about it.

[bemildred]

67. Oh, you are going to get in trouble.

But it seems you are at least aquainted with the historical facts.
:thumbsup: