US Jews feel threatened by religious right

[meow2u3]

CHICAGO (Reuters) - U.S. Jewish leaders say they are increasingly worried that Christian conservatives want to turn America politically and culturally into a country that tolerates only their brand of Christianity.

"There is a feeling on all sides that something is changing," said Abraham Foxman, director of the New York-based Anti-Defamation League.

"The polls indicate a very serious thing -- that over 60 percent of the American people feel that religion and Christianity are under attack," he said on Thursday in an interview.

"Some are saying we are attacking (Christianity). This whole movement is not anti-Semitic or motivated by anti-Semitism. But sometimes unintended consequences are much more serious than intended" he added.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051215/us_nm/religion_jews_dc


STP: Jews aren't the only ones who feel threatened by the Christofascists. Many moderate and liberal Christians feel the same way, too, especially Catholics who know some right-wing "Christians" think Catholics aren't Christian.

STP to Catholics: open your eyes to those Christofascists who are using you for repuke votes, only to leave you out in the cold once they assume absolute power. They want to outlaw the church.

[mondo joe]

1. Gee, ya' THINK?

I don't know why so many Jews have allied themselves with the fundies to begin with. Could they have really thought they'd be safe?

[0007]

How big is the "Jews for Jesus" crowd.

[mondo joe]

14. I don't mean them -- I mean the actual Jews who have allied

themselves politically. Not the "Jews for Jesus" crowd. They're safe in the American theocracy.

[0007]

48. I know what you're saying I was just being facetious. Sorry!

[AnneD]

127. It is the Israel thing...

Christofacists love Israel but hate Jews (and not so secretly want them all shipped to Israel for the 2nd coming activities). It's alot like loving the fetus and hating the child.
And the Catholics, I can't even believe they would fall for that right wing nonsense about morality and family values. I grew up around some of these hard core fundamentalists. OMG, you would never believe the diatribe tracts they would put out. Catholics all but had cloven hoofs and horns and the pope ran a palace of orgies with nubile nuns. If you think that time and education has changed it, you are a fool. They have a thin veneer of civility over that bigotry.
Our founding fathers were VERY wise to separate church form state and many had experienced persecution in their own countries. Once you open that door then the next question is, what church.
It's like log cabin Republicans....I just don't get it.

[bitchkitty]

159. Abortion - I think

many Catholics, like many Americans, are knee-jerk, one-issue voters. I think abortion is the reason that many Catholics vote Republican.

[Kixel]

197. Yup...

I am from a really Catholic area, and that's the only issue for a lot of folks. It's sad, but changing that kind of thinking is VERY difficult. Of course, it can be done. My mother recently made comments about being pro-choice. Of course, she's been a Democratic Catholic for a long time. She just isn't a single issue voter.

[IndianaGreen]

154. They are not Jews!

"Jews for Jesus" is a Christian cult!

[unblock]

7. the overwhelming majority of jews are opposed to shrub.

just as the overwhelming majority of blacks are as well, folks like rice and powell notwithstanding.

the banana republicans are masters at putting the token minorities front and center, they do it at every photo-op they can.

if there's no minority visible in the crowd behind shrub, then you can bet your bottom dollar that there's no minority in the audience at all, at least not one they're sure is a republican.

[mondo joe]

15. Actually Bush has gotten more traction with Jews than blacks

per exit polling comparisons.

But there are very conservative Jews who have allied themselves with the far right, probably on a combination of social issues and Israel.

But there can be no safety when dealing with the religious reich - they're like a biological weapon that you can't help getting caught by yourself.

[onenote]

24. Myth: Chimpy has gained more Jewish support than other repubs

While it is undoubtedly true that Chimpy has gotten more support from American Jews than from African Americans, his support from Jews is actually low by historical standards. While FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, Humphrey and Clinton all captured between 80 and 90 percent of the Jewish vote, other Democrats have not done nearly as well. In fact, Stevenson, McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis all garnered less than 70 percent of the Jewish vote, with Carter, in 1980, getting a paltry 45%. Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I all got between 30 and 40 percent of the Jewish vote. Chimpy got 19 percent against Gore and 25 percent against Kerry (with Gore and Kerry both capturing 70 plus percent of the Jewish vote).

So the idea that Bush has made signficant inroads with Jewish voters is simply untrue. He picked up a bit from 2000 to 2004, but is still far below a number of other repub candidates from the past 60 years.

onenote

[Coastie for Truth]

177. Your numbers are so far off as to be meaningless.

Stevenson, McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis all did much better then your numbers.

[sir_captain]

66. What you said is completely meaningless

something like 80% of Jews voted for Kerry. Just like in the previous election, and the one before that, etc, etc. The whole Jews going repub thing is complete and utter bullshit.

[entanglement]

77. Got any sources to back up that 80% claim?

n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

79. google is your friend.

This is not the best source, but this source is very similar to every other source I have found. Not quite the 80%, but still clearly shows that Jews vote democratic....you got something to say different?

[sir_captain]

99. Yeah, I rounded up from 77% Boo hoo.

[No Exit]

129. "Completely meaningless". Nice.

Nothing like tolerance for the views of others, or a willingness to hear a reasonably-framed opinion.

He never said ALL JEWS.

Jews don't want to be lumped into a monolithic group, I assume. He was doing the opposite of lumping them into a monolithic group. He was pointing out differences within the group of people called "Jewish".

What the hell is wrong with that??

Now, to satisfy you, he is instructed that he must make a careful and comprehensive head count of how many Jews are in the Shrub camp. If he comes up with less Jews in the Shrub camp than Jews outside the Shrub camp, you win. You will win that one. Congrats. Only problem is, it wasn't a fucking contest to begin with. It was just an observation.

[Coastie for Truth]

175. But Bush has gotten LESS traction with Jews than ANY OTHER WHITE GROUP

[dutchdemocrat]

18. I would say the overwhelming majority

of American Jews but perhaps not Israeli - who seem to be quite supportive of the Republicans.

[BrklynLiberal]

26. The very orthodox Jews might support him and the "fundamentalist"

ideas that he and his followers supposedly support. Some foolishly support him because they think he supports Israel. They have apparently forgotten that old adage that those who lay down with dogs wake up with fleas.

If you make a deal with the devil, you will pay with your soul, no matter how "superior" you may think your motives may have been.

The Jews in America...I am an American Jew, so I can say this...who have enthusiastically backed Bush and his cronies will live to regret it. Their betrayal at the hands of Bush and the Fundamentalists and the Dominionists will be swift and cruel.

What comes to mind is the famous quote from Neimoller out of Nazi Germany:

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
Martin Niemoller

[onenote]

33. more Jews supported Reagan than support Chimpy

its a fact.

onenote

[dutchdemocrat]

34. These comment s in the JP really freaked me out....

Now I know a few 'posters' at an Israeli newspaper don't constitute the pulse of the nation. But the comments from readers on this post here on an article at the JP on the subject of declining support for Israel amongst American Jewish people really bothered me. If anything for the vehement, narrow-minded inflammatory rhetoric.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=316x625

[President Kerry]

36. Right wingers are in a minority even in Israel..

I strongly believe they will lose ground in Israeli politics. Bibi Netanyahu may get some emotional traction with a segment of the population, but he will never get majority vote.

[Chautauqua]

108. That's a given

The right wing mainstream party split last month into a moderate party and a far right party. The old right-wing party is expected to lose a LOT of seats now that there's an alternative. (The liberal party has lost lots of votes due to corruption and a lot of Israelis were holding their noses to vote either way)

[BrklynLiberal]

37. Frank Luntz is a RW shill and a shit-stirrer of the first grade. He is

and has always been a REPUBLICAN pollster and political consultant. Anything he publishes will be aimed at stirring up emotions to the benefit of the RW /Conserviative politicos.

Evangelicals are actually more likely to speak up on behalf of Israel than many in the Jewish community. We should accept our allies where we find them.

You know why this is true? Because the Fundies believe that when the Jews are in total control of Israel, the end times will arrive, and they will all ascend to Heaven The Jews, of course will not be invited to join them. They will be condemned to the fires of Hell along with all the other "nonbelievers".

This is another case of making a deal with the devil for a short term goal.
One does not make a deal with the devil without sacrificing one's soul.

These people who think an alliance with Fundie Christians will serve them well in order to preserve their pseudo-patriotism for Israel, will be in for a rude awakening when these people start demanding more and more of a role in the government of the country.

When one lays down with dogs, one WILL wake up with fleas.

[GatoLover]

55. Christian fundamentalist support for Israel

'You know why this is true? Because the Fundies believe that when the Jews are in total control of Israel, the end times will arrive, and they will all ascend to Heaven The Jews, of course will not be invited to join them. They will be condemned to the fires of Hell along with all the other "nonbelievers".

I am happy to accept Christian fundamentalist support for Israel. I am fully aware of what the Fundies believe, and it is fine with me. I'd even be willing to put it into writing, a formal contract if you will: "We agree to support Israel 100 per cent but only until Jesus returns, at which time we dump you and go to heaven, while you go to hell." I'm a practicing Jew, and I'd sign that agreement in a nanosecond. Just keep up the support until Jesus returns, ho-ho!

[BrklynLiberal]

59. A deal with the devil is a deal with the devil. You can call it by any

other name you want, but it is what it is. When you can get to the level the of ends justifying the means you are treading on very precarious moral ground, and are in very questionable company.

[GatoLover]

62. I don't think so

You see, the nice thing is that they don't require anything in return. When you make up less than 1/4 of one per cent of the world population, you don't turn down support when proffered.

[BrklynLiberal]

65. That is what the devil says now. Wait. Collection time will be very

painful, and surprising.

[GatoLover]

68. Really? What's the payoff supposed to be?

I'll drop out of sarcastic mode and say that I'm not adopting Jesus no time, no how, under no circumstances. I laughed years ago when the President of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Rev. Bailey Smith, famously said that, "G-d doesn't hear the prayer of a Jew." Does the Reverend Smith saying it make it true? Why should I be offended? This is America, and the beauty of this country, and of our political system, is that everybody (Fundies included!) can believe whatever damned foolish things they want but, even if they muster a majority, something they will never even come close to doing, they still can't impose their religious beliefs on us.

[AlienGirl]

72. Are you sure they don't require anything?

Look for the fine print...they will support Israel, but in return, they expect all Jews to move to Israel and subsequently either convert or be killed in a conflagration.

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

71. That would be an okay deal if the Christian fundies were willing to wait

for Jesus to show up in his own sweet time. I don't believe this crop is willing to wait; I think the End-Timers are trying to force the events they interpret as "the end of time" to happen. I don't think they are entirely sane. What if they decide they need to force all the Jews in Israel to convert, or be nuked--since that's part of their prophecy, too?

Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic--but I do not trust them.

Tucker

[entanglement]

78. "they think he supports Israel..."

Of course he does; you can never be rich enough, white enough or pro-Israel enough in America

[Behind the Aegis]

80. So true...

..most of them are right-wing freepers who only want Jews in control of Jerusalem for their "going home" beliefs. Of course, to be a "true" liberal, one must be anti-Israeli...however, some of us real liberals forget that sometimes.

[Andromeda]

74. You are wrong.

American Jews are NOT overwhelmingly supportive of the Republicans.

[dutchdemocrat]

76. err....

That's what I said... I was 'agreeing' to that point in reply to another post.

[Chautauqua]

107. Nope

First of all, Israelis don't vote in US elections. I know, that's obvious but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Secondly, Israeli polls showed that most Israelis who payed attention to the US elections couldn't figure out why we'd vote for Bush (Just like everybody else on the planet)

Third, even the Israeli government which at the time was led by their conservative (but not the loony tunes fringe right) party opposed the Iraq war. I know that wasn't the topic but that meme is bound to come up.

[Pirate Smile]

29. Have they?

-snip-
It is paradoxical that the Democratic Party, which is so beholden to Jews for energy, funds and ideas, has not looked into a mirror and noticed something odd. No matter how rich the Jewish community got, no matter how powerful, it continued to vote overwhelmingly Democratic. In other words, it voted against its economic self-interest, which would be lower taxes or, in the fantasies of Republicans, almost no taxes at all.

This is the power of culture. Two, three generations out of the impoverished Eastern European ghetto, powerful and privileged beyond compare, most Jews still vote as if the Cossacks might come at any moment and the sweatshop boss might throw them out into the streets.

So it should come as no surprise that the power of culture - the power of it to override or cancel out economic self-interest - has become so prominent in American political life.

The very fact that Ohio remained a battleground state to the end is a case in point. It had - and has - a weak economy. It has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Yet it seems that countless Ohioans did not vote their wallets but their cultural values - 62% in support of an amendment banning same-sex marriage, for instance. The economy might be bad, but it was not so bad as the prospect of gay marriages.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/249349p-213539c.html

[Chautauqua]

109. Hmmm

"most Jews still vote as if the Cossacks might come at any moment"

Well, with the Cossacks in the White House, that doesn't seem like an odd idea at all...

[Coastie for Truth]

179. One of the best observations in the silly thread

That has always been the point -- the GOP was always regarded (by the Jews in my overwhelmingly Jewish neighborhood) as the party of restrictive covenants, employment quotas, university (and med school and law school) quotas, and against workplace justice.

Jerome Karabel's The Chosen : The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton will tell you more about a Jewish bias for the Democrats and against the GOP then all of Frank Luntz's bull crap. (first hand - not been to Yale, not done Yale, not bought the Yale t-shirt, never sang the Wiffenpoof Song, never been to the Skull and Bones House - and it wasn't because of my grades or SAT's)

[centristo]

110. evangelical christians and zionist jews

both want a secure state of israel. their aims are a little different though. its a means-end type of relationship.

also, judaism and christianity have many simliar values so maybe that helped.

[Coastie for Truth]

180. We're not that naive.

[npincus]

117. Puh-leazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzze

yes, there are those who have, but "so many" is an overstatement. A larger proportion of Jews are democrats and progressives than exist in the general population. The ADL have never aligned themselves with Fundies.

[liberalhistorian]

171. Apparently, Holy Joe NO-mentum

has no problem kissing up to these fuckers, while claiming to be a devoutly religious Jew. He'll probably be the first one they toss overboard, too.

And if I were Jewish in this country, I'd be frightened, too. The Christofascists may talk a good game when praising Jews and Judaism, but the reality as to what they REALLY think of Jews is far darker. Hell, I'm frightened as a liberal Christian, since they wouldn't consider me to be a "real" Christian.

[Coastie for Truth]

173. "so many" is a vast overstatement.

[stanwyck]

198. I know Jewish people who support Bush

because they feel he is going to protect Israel and be tougher against Arab terrorists. They seem to ignore the Bush alliance with the Saudis which has contributed so heavily to our precarious position in the world.
However, most of the Jewish people I know detest Bush and his administration.

[enki23]

2. er... a few atheists might feel threatened too, yaknow?

.

[VegasWolf]

3. Yeah! but they need the atheists to do the heavy thinking!

:evilgrin:

[unblock]

4. hey, some of us jews ARE atheists, too!

[VegasWolf]

12. LOL! My bad! I didn't mean to slight my good friends the Jewish atheists!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

73. Right about here, you can hear the sound of Freeper heads

exploding.

LOL!

[BrklynLiberal]

27. Right!

:evilgrin:

[Swede]

38. er...the real followers of Christ might feel threatened too.

These hardcore,rightwing unforgiving,uncompassionate,gun-toting fundies are dangerous to anyone not marching in lockstep.

[rd_kent]

5. We ALL feel threatened by the Right Wing Fanatics!!!!

They scare the hell out of me.

[Strong Atheist]

142. Hear, hear! nt.

[Angry Girl]

6. Buddhists, Moslems, Hindu, Rastafari, and pagans too!

The Christian thing has always been US versus THEM. Eliminate ALL organized religion and we'll be a HUGE step closer to world peace.

Societies worse off "when they have God on their side"

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Continued...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1798944,00.html

[tocqueville]

11. this study should be reposted every day...

everyday

[Mojorabbit]

47. I was going to throw pagans into the mix

too but ya beat me to it!

[sweetheart]

118. From nixon on ... right wing jewish witch hunts

Just remember what the patron saint richard nixon said:

"I see another thing in the news summary this morning about it. That's a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana is Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob, what is the matter with them? I suppose it's because most of them are psychiatrists . . ."

http://www.csdp.org/news/news/nixon.htm

It then becomes clearer why this new nazi party is fighting its drugs war.

[stepnw1f]

8. Right Wing Fundamentalism is Dangerous

People should have been scared long ago. We all here at DU have been beating that drum for a long time now.

[KamaAina]

9. Breaking: US Gentiles feel threatened by religious right, too

Put "Christian Reconstructionists" into your friendly neighborhood search engine -- if you dare. They want to turn America into an Iranian-style theocracy -- and so far, they're getting away with it: tons of 'em are in high places, 'specially in (surprise!) the repuke party. :scared:

[tocqueville]

10. 80% of Europeans feel that secularity is under attack by fundies

two different worlds...

[VegasWolf]

16. We could give the puritans back to you.

:evilgrin:

[tocqueville]

17. good idea, we are very much for museums...

then ordinary US citizens could visit the secluded villages to see how it was before and warn their children

[VegasWolf]

19. Brilliant! Do you have room for a few dispirited Americans over there?

I've always liked Paris and also the south of France.

:toast:

[tocqueville]

22. you are welcome

:toast:

[depakid]

13. Well, they should feel threatened

Because a lot of these types will go after them just as easily as they go after anyone else.

We're not talking rational people, here. We're talking in many cases about people who need to be committed and treated.

[mondo joe]

20. They should remind this guy.

[BrklynLiberal]

30. That one is crawling with fleas....having spent way too much time laying

down with the dogs.

[donheld]

21. PLEASE RATE THAT STORY HIGH

It needs all the exposure it can get.

[Joanne98]

23. The Jesus Nazi's probably want to take over Israel too.....

I'd worry about that too if I were them.......

[Shallah Kali]

32. Which fundy group wants all the Jews in Israel to trigger Armageddon?

Those people aren't pro-Israel or pro-Jewish - they are pro-end times, only wanting to get all the Jewish people into Israel not becasue they care about their well being. After all isn't part of that belief is they will convert that sect of christianity or fry with everyone else?

OK I did some looking and found this information on Christian Zionism:

CHRISTIAN ZIONISM:
CHRISTIAN SUPPORT FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL:
THE POLITICS AND THEOLOGY OF ARMAGEDDON
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm

Christian Zionism @ wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

More on Christian Zionism @ TheocracyWatch
http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism.htm

[mitchum]

44. Yep, those nuts believe in a five act play where all of the Jews...

disappear in the fourth act.

[Shallah Kali]

69. A group is paying the way for Jews to move to Israel

A Christian relative of mine told me about this and how wonderful it was for this Christian group to help those people. I mumbled a agreement because I didn't want to argue with someone who is frail and sick instead of saying that I thought it a dirty trick to help these people move only so they would die horribly or change religions according to that groups' beliefs. This is not a kind thing in my opinion.

[dutchdemocrat]

134. Jeezus...

Counterintuitive as it may seem to some, a large majority of Zionists in the world are not Jewish, and most of the Zionists do not live in Israel.

They are fundamentalist evangelical Christians of the apocalyptic persuasion -- Christian Zionists -- in the United States, who, as Mark Ames puts it, "hope to bundle every hairy Jewish ass up, air-freight them to the West Bank and East Jerusalem (once those areas have been cleansed of Muslims), and use the Jews as bait to bring upon the Rapture, as kindling in the Apocalypse, the final battle that will bring Jesus back to Earth.

None of this can happen until every last Jew is penned into the occupied territories -- and the Jews won't get there unless the far-right runs Israel and America" ("Save a Jew, Save Yourself!" New York Press 17.41, October 12, 2004).

Apparently unable to simply put their faith in Providence, Christian Zionists are doing all they can to hasten the Rapture. How? By putting Jews on sale on TV.

One such "Jews-for-Sale" infomercial dumbfounded a Harvard blogger:

onight I am really confused. Sitting here in a hotel in rural Georgia, I came across an infomercial for the "International Fellowship of Christians and Jews" (in partnership with the Jewish Agency for Israel). For at least a half an hour, the program urged Christian viewers to donate money to help Russian Jews emigrate to Israel: "$350 for one Jew, $700 for a couple" was the frequent refrain. (www.wingsofeagles.tv) ("Late Night TV's Strange Bedfellows," RF Modulator, July 12, 2004)

According to Ruth Conniff, prizes are offered for Christians who pledge to buy Jews for Israel: "As in a fund drive for public television, the evangelists were giving out prizes to viewers who called up to pledge. In this case, the premium was a genuine shofar" ("Public Piety," The Progressive, March 2003). The wackiness of the show beggars description, even in the able hands of the veteran journalist: "An enthusiastic evangelical Christian dressed as King David in a gold crown played a harp and sang Hebrew songs in front of the Western Wall. A Jews for Jesus couple in Florida sat in a living room crammed with Stars of David, loaves of challah, and various Jewish tchotchkes, reading Christian Bible verses" (Conniff, March 2003). Notwithstanding the wackiness of its infomercials, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews claims to have "contributed over $100 million in recent years toward Jewish immigration, resettlement and social welfare projects in Israel" (International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, "A History of Helping"), and it counts Joe Lieberman among its pitchmen:

The image is jarring: Sen. Joseph Lieberman, presidential candidate, appears on an infomercial asking Evangelical Christians to donate money to "rescue a Jew." "'On Wings of Eagles' is a modern-day fulfillment of Biblical prophesy," the voiceover in the infomercial says, over images of huddled Russian Jews at the airport, smiling as they presumably wait to leave Russia for Israel.

The half-hour appeal aired on the afternoon of Jan. 2 on Paxson Broadcasting (PAX) stations across the nation (locally on WHPX, channel 26), according to the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (IFCJ), the Chicago-based nonprofit that paid for the spot. Alongside Lieberman, testimonials come from stars of the Christian Right, including convicted Watergate felon Charles Colson, Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, and Moral Majority head Jerry Falwell.

Critics of the Christian Right say the IFCJ's appeal to "prophesy" in their infomercial is a thinly veiled reference to Armageddon, the Second Coming of Christ and the moment when nonbelievers -- Jews included -- will be cast into the lake of fire. Jewish critics of the IFCJ say the group demeans the dignity of Jews.

Yet from 1994 to 1999, Lieberman, who on Monday announced his bid for the presidency, served as co-chair of one of IFCJ's projects, the Washington-based Center for Jewish and Christian Values.

Lieberman's long association with the IFCJ is, if not a secret, a little-known detail of his biography. No examination of it was made during Lieberman's bid for the vice presidency in 2000. The secular, mainstream press has taken no notice. (Edward Ericson, Jr., "What About Those End Times, Mr. President? Sen. Joe Lieberman Announces his Candidacy, But Not His Association with Lunatic Fringe of Biblical Prophecy," Hartford Advocate, January 16, 2003)

SNIP

http://montages.blogspot.com/2004/12/350-for-one-jew-700-for-couple.html

[Shallah Kali]

146. More on International Fellowship of Christians and Jews

Jeepers these are the ones I heard about from a relative who thought it was "sweet" for them to help Jewish people move to Israel. She had no idea what their real motive was.

Charity Navigator - 2004 Total Revenue: $44,153,406
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3889.htm

Source Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=International_Fellowship_of_Christians_and_Jews

# ome of the people on the advisory are:

* Gary Bauer; Bill Bennett; Chuck Colson; The Baroness Cox; Kay Cole James; Jeane Kirkpatrick; Lloyd Ogilvie; Ralph Reed; Jack Kemp; William Kristol

# Some notable speakers in the past have been:

* Pat Robertson; Jerry Falwell; Pat Boone; Donald Rumsfeld; Hon' Abraham Lincoln Marovitz

Sen. Joe Lieberman Erases Ties to Apocalyptic Fundamentalist Group
http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/lieberman-ifcj.htm

U.S. Christians find cause to aid Israel
Evangelicals financing immigrants, settlements
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/07/10/MN17001.DTL

he largest contingent of American Jewish immigrants in years stepped off the El Al charter flight at Ben Gurion International Airport on Tuesday, overjoyed at the chance to begin their new lives in Israel.

Forgotten amid all the excitement was the fact that many of the 371 newcomers had been bankrolled by grants from U.S. evangelical Christians, who regard the return of Jews to the Holy Land as part of an apocalyptic prophecy foretold in the Bible.

"What I'm seeing is the Scriptures being fulfilled right before our very eyes," said Bishop Huey Harris, whose First Pentecostal Tabernacle Church in Elkton, Md., raised $2,500 from its congregation to help finance the American Jews' journey.

"What's next? I'm looking for the church to be raptured, Jesus returning for the church . . . and the Jews would receive him as their Messiah."

[No Exit]

148. Now, this is a good post about Zionism and the "Rapture" types

Thank you for posting this. This post shows how Zionism is definitely NOT the same as Judaism. (Surely no one on here is ignorant enough to think the two are synonymous, but there are some out there who think they are.)

This means, to me, that criticism of the Zionist movement is NOT "anti-semitism". And criticism of this strange movement--and of the bizarre Rapture monkeys who further it--should not be automatically quelled and forbidden as "anti-semitic".

[EVDebs]

25. It's based in the Reformation's pre-tribulation rapture from the

Jesuit's need to 'cover' from the Reformation pointing the finger at the papacy. The end times 'theology' that emerged was futurism, which in modern terminology is a.k.a. dispensationalism or something like the Left Behind novels view of the future:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism, Preterism
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

which shows that the 'futurist' interpretation of the 'end times' requires a Third Temple, and is bound to upset the Islamic world. The recent writings of George Monbiot and Chris Hedges should wake people up to this fact.

www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

www.harpers.org/FeelingTheHate.html

Historicism, or the eschatological view of Reformation theologians like Luther, were shunted aside since the turn of this century and especially with the advent of the state of Israel.

Books like Forcing God's Hand by Grace Halsell and End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg should further enlighten DUers about what the heck is goin' on.

You can also see www.globalsecurity.org's 'Greater Israel' stuff, such as the From the Nile to the Euphrates map, and how bin Laden is exploiting this to the detriment of the US's foreign policy.

[Wordie]

53. Another excellent book from the perspective of an Israeli is...

The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount, by Gershom Gorenberg, an Israeli journalist. His work is at once scholarly and accessible. I'd recommend it highly for anyone seeking to get a balanced perspective on the I/P struggle as well. Here's the amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195152050/qid=1134707716/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/002-5814099-1344061?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

31. Kicked and recommended

:kick:

[MountainLaurel]

35. They'd better be

Having spent enough time around the sort of whack jobs who now have the ear of the president, and who are under investigation in the Air Force Academy, I can tell you these folks still haven't moved past the "you people killed Jesus" mode of the Middle Ages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. WOW my brethren are finally waking up

[No Exit]

145. I'm glad you have the sense to see

that there were indeed some Jewish people who (somewhat uncharacteristically, I think) supported this rotten president, but who now realize that * and his nutty rightwing religious supporters are NOT their friends.

There are some on here who refuse to acknowledge that ANY Jews ever supported *. This--in the face of David Horowitz's rantings.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Does anybody have stats to show where the Jewish vote has

been trending in the last three elections?

[onenote]

137. link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1989206&mesg_id=1989361

[The Backlash Cometh]

152. Seems like the Jewish vote is going to go the way of the hispanic

vote. Most will probably vote Democratic, but not with the same passion as the black vote.

[Chautauqua]

157. OK That's wierd

You came to a conclusion that's 100% opposite of what the link you responded to said.

No only isn't there a downward trend, there isn't even a solid trend except that you could say that in races where the Democrats have a good candidate, they get 80-90% of the Jewish vote. When they don't and Republicans have a HUGELY successful candidate, they still get the Jewish vote but in smaller numbers. Just like they get in every measurable demographic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

172. I don't see the data the way you do.

First, 90% of the black vote plus goes to the Democrats. Sorry, but the Jewish vote falls far short of that. In fact, I would say that if there were some honest polls to be found, it would show that the Jewish vote has been drifting away from the Democrats for the last couple of elections. Unless you have candidates like Clinton or Lieberman who have stong support for PNAC or pro-Israel platforms. The hispanic vote is not as high as the black vote in their support for the Democrats either; in fact, the hispanic vote is no guarantee. The Democrats need to address their issues and it's going to be difficult since they represent the entire social strata.

I guess what I'm saying is, that I'm skeptical as to what qualifies as a "good candidate."

[Coastie for Truth]

182. Well that is not my experience

and I have been a political junkie for over 45 years, and have done my share of phone banks and fund raising and Progressive clubs and precinct walking and "Election Protection" phone banks, etc.

[The Backlash Cometh]

185. It's pretty obvious that the Dems had far more support from

all the minority groups 40 years ago, but I think somewhere in the 90s, when they started to drift away from the old Dem platform, they lost the blind loyalty.

If you are a political junkie, certainly you have noticed that there are more people declaring themselves at Independant and no party, than they were forty years ago. Surely?

[Coastie for Truth]

190. Look at the actual election by precinct by demographic --

not to the opinion polls or the registrations.

It's the "IN" thing to be Green or Independent - and still vote Democratic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

195. Saying it's the "in" thing sounds like an opinion.

[Coastie for Truth]

181. Random walk in the 70%-80% Dem range.

[primavera]

41. Who doesn't?

They're a threat to anyone who isn't exactly like them or willing to be assimilated into their Borg collective.

[madmark]

42. At the end of the day it will convert or die for the jews according to

the fundamentalist apocalyptic creed.

[mitchum]

43. Wasn't Foxman quite proud not too long ago about the alliance...

he had made with the fundies over their shared uncritical support of Israel? Despite warnings from the more clear-thinking majority of American Jews?
Fuck you, Abe.

[IndianaGreen]

56. People are waking up to the fact that they slept with the Devil

I am relieved that people like Foxman recognizes the threat that the Religious Right poses to our freedoms, not just to Jews, but to all those that do not adhere to fundie dogmatism.

We are all in peril!

[barb162]

60. What's interesting to me is that there is nothing fundamentally

wrong with being religious right or left. It is when the power of religion is taken into the political arena that things get hairy.If your next door neighbor was a fundamentalist 50 years ago, you probably wouldn't have known it because people really didn't push it or talk about it, other than to say they were working at the church, going to church, donating, etc. Now certain religious groups want to take the "secular" out of government. It's a vast change in religious thinking

[Chautauqua]

111. Umm, actually

he wasn't. He WAS issuing public support for specific actions but was also very careful in not allying with them or supporting them in general.

Apparently you misread it.

[mitchum]

132. I didn't say he was supporting them, but that he was welcoming their...

support in a 60 Minutes interview three years ago. A tightrope walk of pragmatism for Foxman.

[AuntiBush]

45. Dare say I Blame them.

Same here, and I'm not Jewish. All of us should be worried, very, very worried.

Church & State are never to mix. Not in America and not according to how our Constitution was set-up.

Franklin & Jefferson gotta be sick & tired of rolling over in their poor ole' graves by now! I don't care what the other sicko-side says.

[AuntiBush]

46. 60 percent?

Maybe that poll can be read in another way. Maybe over 60 percent of Americans really do feel religion and Christianity are under attack, but in a different way in that it's being used to the extreme.

After re-reading that 1 line, it can be seen in various angles.

[HuffleClaw]

49. jews, muslims, women...

and anyone who ISN'T an evangelical christian has much to fear from the fundies.

[BiggJawn]

50. Well, Shalom, Bros...

Deja Vu all over again... Only this time they'll be rounding up us non-believers along with you "Jeebus Killers"...

[ninkasi]

51. I certainly feel threatened.

I'm not Jewish, but I feel threatened, as well. Fundies are scary, scary people. You can not use reason to appeal to them, so arguing is of no use. Their minds are already made up, and nothing will change them. They consider themselves to be the ONLY ones who know and follow the truth. The rest of us are dispensable, if we don't fall in line with their beliefs.

[IronLionZion]

52. So do real US Christians

anyone from any background should feel threatened by the religious right. I get told I'm not a real Christian or a real Catholic all the time. Rick Santorum insulted a priest and told him he wasn't a real Catholic.

If you want to know their intentions, think Taliban.... Haven't we learned that religous extremism is bad?

[CornField]

54. Well, get in line!

LMAO!! Is there anyone who doesn't feel threatened by them?

[GatoLover]

57. Jews threatened by religious right

I want to make a serious post on this. I'm not the least bit threatened by the religious right. My wife and I gave our daughter fourteen years of intensive Jewish education, she is "on the derech," as we say, so intermarriage is not in the cards. I couldn't care less about their religious beliefs which -- and I'll phrase this very charitably -- misrepresent any reasonable view of G-d's nature but, hey, it's a free country, they can believe anything they want no matter how stupid. I have a lot of confidence in the political system, my view of Bush is "this too shall pass," anti-Semitism in this country is miniscule... indeed, Americans as a group love the Jews, too much almost. We as a people are more secure in the USA than in any place or time in history. I am concerned, a little, over the gross anti-scientific bias of these people but as I said I have confidence in the political system and doubt that the Fundies will ever be much more than a nuisance.

[BrklynLiberal]

58. That is exactly what the Jews in Germany said about the Nazis.

I have a lot of confidence in the political system, my view of Bush is "this too shall pass," anti-Semitism in this country is miniscule... indeed, Americans as a group love the Jews, too much almost. We as a people are more secure in the USA than in any place or time in history. I am concerned, a little, over the gross anti-scientific bias of these people but as I said I have confidence in the political system and doubt that the Fundies will ever be much more than a nuisance.

Even in Nazi Germany;, there were Jews who did not realize the full extyent of the danger they were in....

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/02/23/reviews/970223.23sternt.html
The Worst Was Yet to Come
By FRITZ STERN
Some Germans, and some Jews, thought segregation would be the end of the affair. They were wrong

<snip>
Mr. Friedlander's second subject is the victims' reactions to persecution, their varied responses to the consequent alienation and dispossession. ''The Jews themselves,'' he observes, ''were only partly aware of the increasingly shaky ground on which they stood because, like so many others, they did not perceive the depth of liberal democracy's crisis.'' Hope and despair mingled, with some Zionists taking satisfaction from the prospect that Jewish cohesion could now be restored, and others encouraging a vibrant, if segregated, Jewish cultural life. Anguished debates about emigration took place, though the will to leave did not suffice; it became increasingly hard to find places to emigrate to.
<snip>

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
Martin Niemoller

[GatoLover]

63. I always think about this analogy

but, you know what? This isn't Germany. American history has no analogy in any European country.

[dutchdemocrat]

135. American history has no analogy in any European country is debatable.

Know-Nothing movement



The Know-Nothing movement was a nativist American political movement of the 1850s. It grew up as a popular reaction to the large numbers of immigrants—mostly Irish Roman Catholics—entering the United States starting in the late 1840s, and was characterized by calls for a number of measures to maintain the United States as a nation of Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

The official name of the movement was the American Party. A myth developed that the name "Know-Nothing" was a political epithet used by the party's opponents, and later adopted by its supporters. The real origin of the term was in the semi-secret organization of the party. When a member was asked about its activities, he was supposed to reply "I know nothing."

In 1849, an oath-bound secret society, The Order of the Star Spangled Banner, was created by Charles Allen in New York City. It was to become the nucleus of the future American Party, with lodges formed in nearly every other major American city.

In 1854 they won significant victories in Congress and at the State level, again as an unofficial party driven by coordinated votes for sympathetic candidates; the secret societies themselves supplemented by supporting votes from the population at large, once it was made known who was sympathetic to the Know-Nothings' cause. The results of this election were so favorable to the Know-Nothings that they formed officially as a political party, called the American Party, and swallowed many members of the now nearly-defunct Whig party, as well as a significant number of Democrats, especially Northern Democrats.

As the two major parties collapsed, membership in the American Party increased dramatically: from 50,000 to over one million in a matter of months that year. Also bolstering the Know-Nothings' popularity was the fact that they took a strong stand against slavery on economic and racist grounds, rather than making it a moral issue, at a time when most ordinary citizens cared far more about their own wages and the "aristocratic" power of the plantation masters than they did about the welfare of "Negros."

Also in 1854 members of the American Party stole and destroyed the block of granite contributed by Pope Pius IX for the Washington Monument. They also took over the monument's building society and controlled it for four years. For the full story, see Washington Monument: History.

In 1855, Levi Boone (great-nephew of the frontiersman Daniel Boone) was elected Mayor of Chicago for the Know-Nothings. He barred all immigrants from city jobs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_movement

Ancient Irish terrorist

An illustration from the influential American magazine Harper's Weekly (whose subtitle "Journal of Civilization" sounds ironic a century later) shows an alleged similarity between "Irish Iberian" and "Negro" features in contrast to the higher "Anglo-Teutonic." The accompanying caption indicates that the so-called Iberians were "believed to have been" an African race that invaded first Spain and then, apparently, Ireland, where they intermarried with native savages and "thus made way...for superior races" (like the English) to rule over them.

http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/MT/96/Mar96/mta15m96.html

[GatoLover]

178. Thanks for the post about the Know Nothings

It's not that they've gone away -- I'd call Pat Buchanan the contemporary spokesman. He even ran for President... and how did he do?

I'm not trying to be Panglossian about the U.S. but know-nothing populism of this ilk has never commanded more than, what? 15-20 per cent of the American public, 25 per cent max? I wish it were zero, too, but I don't see something as a threat when it tries to attain power for 150+ years and never comes close.

[Chautauqua]

192. Hmmm

Sorry to appear Cunagondian (couldn't resist) but US political movements don't work that way. In the US a radical 3rd Party doesn't win. When they get critical mass for their idea, that idea gets coopted by one of the two major parties of the day and that party runs with it as though it were their idea in the first place. Or both sides reword it, file off the serial numbers and claim their idea is a "mature" version that isn't dangerous to the republic. Either way, the 3rd Party gets their meme accepted.

[Kellanved]

136. very true

European history is American history, such is the nature of a colony.

As to the Niemöller verse: that one was bent to fit almost any situation; sometimes it includes communists, sometimes unionists. I can't claim to agree with many of contemporary applications. Undisputed it is an intuitive way to describe escalating evil in the Germany of the 1930s, and a warning to heed.

[barb162]

61. Very nice post and very optimistic

And I like your optimism. However, I am not quite as optimistic as you. I am hoping this will pass, but I am not seeing signs it will. If anything it seems to be getting stronger

[GatoLover]

64. Thanks!

I am very optimistic. Life goes better and, furthermore, optimism is good politics. We should have learned that much from Ronbo.

[stepnw1f]

84. Ronbo Was Dellusional

The guy believed he was some character he played in Hollywood for God's sake. I'm afraid that was not optimism you think you learned from him...

[GatoLover]

87. no, no, no!

Optimism is a political weapon! Doesn't anybody around here understand? The point isn't to like Ronbo, the point is to see why he was successful. The voters liked his attitude. We can and should learn from this.

[stepnw1f]

93. That Happens When the Media Kisses Your Ass

The art of marketing in regard to the MSM. Just look at they paint every Democrat running for office. Hell... you can be a decorated Vietnam Vet in the Democratic Party and still get shit for coverage by this corporate propaganda machine.

That's the only reason the retarded son of a millionaire got in office in the first place.

[GatoLover]

94. Kerry did not deliver an optimistic message

Heck, when you look at him, he gives you the impression that he's never had a single happy thought in his life! :shrug:

[stepnw1f]

97. Sure Whatever Bud.... George Bush Did?

When YOU look at him You mean. Keep drinking that kkkoolaid.:rofl:

[GatoLover]

98. I really don't understand this flame

I didn't say a word about Bush and, in addition, I really wasn't trying to bash Kerry. I'm just trying to make the point, which I feel is obvious but which in fact must be highly controversial, that optimism => successful politics.

[stepnw1f]

102. Aww man... This Isn't a Flame

It's called a debate. I just don't agree with your perspective on the Ronnie Sunshine stuff and your mis characterization of Kerry.

In fact what you said about him is exactly what every Republican was saying before the election. It was a smear tactic they loved spreading.

And Bush was the one being the fear monger saying we'd be attacked if people didn't vote for him. I don't call using fear for politics as positive. Kerry was saying things the way they were. If you thought that was being negative, then you really bought into the Koolaid crap from the Right.

[GatoLover]

103. OK, I'll debate a little

IMHO this has nothing to do with smears, posturing, or ideology. It isn't even spinning. It's just recognition of the fact that most people find optimism and a sunny disposition to be attractive, while the opposite is unattractive so, to the extent that politics involves selling yourself, sunniness and optimism beat gloom and doom, certainly all things being equal. In reality all things aren't equal so, sure, we didn't support President Ronbo simply because he was optimistic, smiled, and cracked jokes. But none of those were bad things in and of themselves, they were good things, and they helped him advance his agenda. I'm simply suggesting that our side should do the same thing. Call it a Republican smear if you want but not very many people watched Kerry last year and thought, wow, there goes Mister Sunshine!

[stepnw1f]

104. I Agree That Positive Messages Attract People More

... I just would remind anyone to keep in mind, that the media painted Kerry in a very dim light, while casting a halo around Ronnie and Bush's head.

[GatoLover]

105. Sorry, I think Kerry created his own problems

There were surveys showing that a large percentage of reporters voted for and supported Kerry. They wanted Kerry to win. It isn't disloyal to recognize that Senator Kerry didn't always give them a lot to work with! :eyes:

[stepnw1f]

133. Ah Noooo... the Media did

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is just one example of how the media allowed unfounded charges to stand unchallenged before an election. and another thing... Loyalty has nothing to do with this. Finally, your assumption that Kerry didn't have a positive image is pure bull....

[GatoLover]

167. So far as the Swift Boats were concerned

don't you think it was Kerry's job to reply to that?

But back to my main point and, let me repeat, I am really not meaning to bash Kerry. He tried to present an uplifting message, he tried to smile a lot, he tried to crack jokes and, at the three ebates, he was actually pretty good at it. It was just those other weeks and months of the campaign in which he frequently came across as, well, dour and scolding. You know, a cartoon New Englander. :( instead of :-)

All I want to argue is that, all things being equal, an uplifting an optimistic message is good politics. Is that controversial?

[BrklynLiberal]

162. They Thought They Were Free, by Milton Mayer

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

[BrklynLiberal]

67. Be careful. Optimism can in reality be naivety or even denial

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

Never take our democracy for granted, and ASSUME it will always be here just because it has been here in the past.

“There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men.” -- Edmund Burke

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary." -- James Madison, Federalist no. 51.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin,

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation." -- General Douglas MacArthur

"The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." -- Patrick Henry

"The tyranny of a principal in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." --Montesquieu, 1748

"Tyranny is always better organized than freedom." -- Charles Peguy.

[GatoLover]

88. We have 230 years of American history under our belts

There is every reason to be optimistic and, as I keep trying to say, it's good politics. Anybody have any interest in perhaps winning the next election?

[JudyM]

92. It's great that you feel secure... but I'm concerned about the insidious

adoption into American culture of some of the fundies' crazy principles. So many people adopt ideas emotionally, not rationally, and pass them on to their kids. I always notice the children at anti-abortion rallies who don't really have anything to say except to parrot what's on the posters... it's not rational, it's emotional.

Another little vignette: yesterday at the post office one of the postal clerks was loudly and it appeared, proudly, exclaiming 'Have a merry Christmas' to everyone she waited on. It seemed noticeable to me as an act of defiance - bolder than I recall seeing in the past, especially at a government facility. And as a Jew, I felt a little shoved aside. I like to hear happy holidays!

[GatoLover]

95. Look, I really don't like Merry Christmas either

In fact, I wear a kippah so I figure they ought to be able to figure out that I'm Jewish and spare me the "Merry Christmas." But you know what? It's not that big of a deal. Christians make up approximately 90 plus per cent of the population, plus, they think that "Merry Christmas" is joyous and they're meaning to be nice and friendly. When O'Reilly carries on about this I think he's a panderbear and an idiot, but I'd cut the postal clerk a bit more slack.

As for fundie ideas slipping into popular culture, I don't disagree completely. I just think that American history gives us lots of confidence that the culture won't go too far astray.

[BrklynLiberal]

139. Does the name Joseph McCarthy and HUAC Committee ring any bells for you?

As for fundie ideas slipping into popular culture, I don't disagree completely. I just think that American history gives us lots of confidence that the culture won't go too far astray.

[GatoLover]

174. Yes, indeed, I remember McCarthy and HUAC

and where is HUAC now? And what happened when Ann Coulter recently tried to rehabilitate McCarthy? How long did McCarthy last before he flamed out?

We don't live in a perfect world and the USA is certainly not a perfect country. I don't want to minimize the excesses of the HUAC era. The beauty of the American system, however, is that it is almost always self-correcting. McCarthyism didn't take hold in the culture of the 1950's, it was rejected, and HUAC didn't survive the 1960's.

[BrklynLiberal]

189. After how long and how many lives were ruined? If you were one of their

targets, it would have seemed like eons. From your point of view looking back it may seem like a millisecond, but living thru it is an entire different story. Ask anyone who has been released from a false imprisionment if there is any way they can be compensated for what was lost.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

[Chautauqua]

112. I'd strongly suggest

that you read the ADL's biennial survey of anti-Semitic attitudes in the US. Your view that anti-Semitisim here is miniscule only means you live in an island of sanity and don't hang out in the same circles as the anti-Semites.

[GatoLover]

176. I think the ADL is alarmist

Look, their entire function is to be on the lookout for anti-Semitism. Mazel tov! But the nasty truth is that the real threat to American Jews is internal and is centered around our collective inability to convince our children to marry other Jews and raise Jewish families. If the outside culture were really anti-Semitic, it would help us in this mission, but, in fact, the Christian majority loves us, loves our cuisine, loves our actors and comedians, and is as happy as can be to marry their children to ours.

[Chautauqua]

193. OK Everyone can have an opinion

But read the data first. You'll find your "They love us" is not as universal as you'd believe. Yes, some do. That doesn't make those that don't nonexistant.

As for intermarriage, all that takes is 2% that love us. The other 98% could hate us and it would still happen. I'm not saying it is 98:2 but if 20% hate jews, 70% think we're just peachy and 10% are kind of torn, we're screwed and still have 10 anti-Semites per Jew.

And, remember, politically, a passionate 20% will get more political cover than a lukewarm 70% or any group of 2%.

[No Exit]

70. Welcome to the club, US Jews

We have all been threatened by the religious right. For years. Right through the love affair that some of your orthodox and other members had with the Christian right.

I'm so glad your members finally broke up with the Christian right. Welcome back to where you were before--with the rest of us.

Now let's all get busy trying to undo at least a little of the catastrophic damage that has been done due to groups like you (and many other groups) having coddled the religious right for these past years.

[sir_captain]

100. This is ridiculous

Jews were never in bed with the religious right. They have always been the backbone of the democratic party, and that never changed. Do your homework.

[No Exit]

123. Sorry, that's not what I've read.

There were indeed some Jewish Israel supporters who encouraged the religious right loonies' obsession with Jerusalem and Israel. They exploited the stupidity of some fundies' belief that wars or strife in which Israel is a participant somehow are signs revealing things about "the Rapture".

For example, check this out:

"The support of Israel is a biblically based mandate for every Christian. All other nations were created by an act of men, but God Himself established the boundaries of the nation of Israel. God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a covenant of land that was eternally binding, and it's recorded in the book of Genesis. God also told Abraham that He would make Abraham's descendants into a great nation and through them He would bless all the families of the earth. In the same passage, God said He would "bless those who bless you" (Abraham), and "curse him who curses you" (Gen. 12:3). That gets my attention. I want to be blessed, not cursed, by God."

http://www.jhm.org/faq.asp

Or... the Christian Right exploited the belief of some Jews that Israel is a special country with special rights.

Either way, they were (are?) in bed with one another.

As for Jews being the bedrock of the democratic party, yes, there are still many Jews who believe firmly in that party's principles. (Of course, other members of the democratic party are just chopped liver.) I never said "all Jews" were in bed with the Christian Right. Do your homework--read the post first.

The fact is, Jewish voters/politicos are obviously not a monolithic group. Why would they be? Other groups have variances, too.

This, of course, means that a criticism of some members of a group is not necessarily a valid criticism of all members of that group. I learned that while doing my homework.

[Chautauqua]

114. Well gee

that's might friendly of you. Care to explain how you get off telling the 95% of American Jews who are not ultra-Orthodox that you're proud of them?

American Jews opposed Bush more than any group other than African Americans so if you aren't Black you're just being condescending to a group with better credentials than your own.

[No Exit]

124. "Better credentials than your own". Oh, so it's a contest.

A competition. To see who is more correct. To see who is really better.

Speaking of "condescending"...

Why do we have to lump people into groups, anyway? My post spoke of certain groups because the original post referred to a group. But it is obvious that there are variances within groups. This detracts from any convenience that might be found in considering "groups" instead of individuals.

It's not my fault that many who subsume the interests of our own country to the interests of the country of Israel, happen to be Jewish. Many of the persons to whom I'm referring also happen to be non-Jewish--and that segment is larger than the Jewish segment. I'm talking about the current "neocons".

That's why the term "neocon" is of use. Some Jews think this is code for "Jewish", but it shouldn't be considered that. They are a definite group, and they are both Jewish and non-Jewish.

I did not lump all Jews together. You, however, are lumping people together--"any group other than African-Americans". That is how you refer to non-Jews. Lumping them together, with a small, patronizing, exception given to African-Americans. Mighty big of you.

Do I think, say, Carl Levin, is deserving of some sort of criticism in this debate? Not on your life! I'm very glad we have him working for us. He's just one example of what you refer to as "credentials better than (my) own."

Pardon me for presuming to speak of my betters, even in praise of them.

[Chautauqua]

150. Lumpen

Why do we have to lump people into groups, anyway?

Good question. After all, it was you congratulating a "lump" for, in your wierd view, coming around to a view you agree with. Of course, the fact that that particular "lump" of your own choosing has been there longer than you most likely have been is an issue you seem to want to avoid.

Face it. You were the one who decided that the "lump" was finally worthy of your tentative support. And, frankly, that praise isn't worth much. We'll continue to do what we feel is right with or without your "blessing".

[Hardrada]

75. They can't be questioned on anything. Get quickly mad

at liberal's questioning their fundie views and allied militarism. I have a brother in law of the Xian right type and he threatened to not talk to us again if we questioned his views, spec. on the war. They won't listen because they've programmed not to. Stepford Manchurian Candidates.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. not me!

I always knew the religious right hated my kind. I am more threatened by the "progressive" left!

So I have to pull a Mae West, of sorts, and say "when presented with the lesser of two evils, go with the one you haven't tried." Although, I doubt she ever thought her life was on the line, the Dems are a MUCH better choice.

[PATRICK]

82. "Covenant" by James Michener

covers a vast trajectory of tragic and "sensible" Jewish alliances with reformers whose anti-semitic roots eventually turned against their friends in rebellion once in power. The new repression was always worse, more hypocritical and just more of the same.

Bigotry is hardwired into fundamentalism in many ways. The people who will dominate such a movement in gaining political power will not be the nice, tolerant variety. It almost reads like a mathematical equation that leads to a price for a ticket for the precarious land of Target Israel.

As to Catholics, oddly, it is some of the old fashioned conservatives themselves who harbor prejudice and extreme ill will over the persecutions by Protestants- in this country- in the past. They pay attention to their dogmatist competitors today with consistent opposition. However, when the need to lash out against the majority of mankind makes temporary common cause, nut will join with nut to screw the rest of us over, the Vatican be damned. Hence the questionable Christian Catholics like Norquist and the so-called Catholic nuts who front the ID cause.

[lonestarnot]

83. At the moment, these fundamentalist freaks are using Israel as an excuse

to invade Iran. War talk there getting louder each passing day.

[PATRICK]

85. And some, concerning Israel

would really really love to see Israel go up in radioactive mushrooms from the snug security of their TV armchairs as the US becomes God's Holy Trigger for Armageddon- and unscathed by the genocidal drama for which rapture is the sure and monopolized reward.

[MallRat]

86. Yup, I've seen this before. I don't like where it leads.

There is no war on Christmas, or Christians, or Christianity. But the religious right desperately needs their followers to THINK that there is. Once people feel threatened, they can be motivated and mobilized to willingly do their leaders' bidding. Taken to its logical (and inevitable end), no act of hate, no atrocity is beyond the scope of rational thought.

The gears are turning once again. Being the grandson of Holocaust survivors, I can smell it from a mile away. It happens about once every century: Spain, Italy, France, Russia, Germany & Eastern Europe... the ugly side of human nature is beginning to stir. The leaders are playing the same old tune, and the followers are beginning to dance.

It's still early, though. We have to stop this now.

-MR

[superconnected]

90. excellent post.

[Mountainman]

101. We all have to stop giving them any kind of respect because they

call themselves religious. Just because you say god of jesus every five words doesn't make you one of the faithful. We need to call religious fascism what it is, plain old ordinary Italian, Spanish, German style fascism. This country is becoming the very kind of nation that we have fought against since 1939.

[Shallah Kali]

149. Spooking the herd so bad they will follow the leader, even off cliffs

Since they don't have real enemies to keep the followers in line (not to mention donating) they create them. Make 'em think those are wolves howling at the door so they need a big strong sheep dog to protect them - never mind it is the sheep dog who want's them for dinner. Whether or not is is the gay agenda or the pseduowar on Christmas it is all the same end. In a lessor and much less deadly stake it is kind of like how the media creates buzz about new menaces or revives old ones to make $$$$. Flesh Eating Bacteria!!! Shark Attacks!!! West Nile Virus!!!

[Colorado Blue]

169. Right on. Thanks.

[savemefromdumbya]

89. I'm not worried about the 'God-Squad'

[Loonman]

91. As they should, Jews are historical allies to secularists

Jews always end up getting shafted or killed when the damn christers get all agitated.

[leftyladyfrommo]

96. No Need to Worry

They aren't in any more danger than all the rest of us are.

The Christian Zealots are tolerant only of themselves. I guess as long as we outnumber them we will be all right.

Besides, I live in the Bible Belt, and even I can feel a shift in the way people here are thinking.

The Religious Right was also duped by the Bush Adm. and they are not going to take that kindly.

[Ladyhawk]

166. IMO, most of them are too stubborn or stupid to admit they were duped.

That's why I AM worried about them. I used to be one of them and I was nucking futs.

[leftyladyfrommo]

188. Well, yea. There's That.

But they were duped. Still being duped.

I have no answers. Religion can definitely make you crazy.

[dusmcj]

106. maybe the Jewish community needs to make some choices

About social structures and social currents which they do or don't want to support. The Jewish community in the US as well as abroad has usually been in the forefront of social advocacy and social justice movements, to the point where all Americans owe it a debt of gratitude for its members' work in keeping the forces of ignorance and reaction at bay. Yet there appears to be a recent trend where a conservative (and I use the word in a nonsectarian political sense rather than a congregational one) subset of the community appears to find common cause with the most extraordinary social reactionaries, who advocate social stratification, abusive economic activity, coercive social dynamics aimed at enforcing restrictive social norms along with a sense of obligation to conform, the reduction of education to what supports that reactionary society, etc. I do not suggest that any community, including this one, should be required or require itself to homogenize its political stance and make simplistic dualistic choices of the kind that conservatives indulge themselves in, nor that members of any demographic should feel compelled to be liberal or otherwise "correct" in a negative sense in some way. What I do suggest is that the Jewish community may need to engage in an internal dialog about priorities, and what trumps what: the contending issues would include at least: Israeli security, the tone of social life in the US, the right to secure one's self-interest vs. the right of all to opportunity, the degree of brutality tolerable in life (i.e. how Darwinian does our social tone become, do we say "too bad" to those who are at the low end of the socioeconomic scale), the significance we give to the inherent rights enumerated by the Founders, particularly when those come in conflict with ostensibly necessary government activities, etc. A community which has led America frequently in the arena of social progress is more equipped than most to make these deliberations, and then apply their conclusions for the common good. But maybe it's time to do that deliberating.

[MallRat]

113. I'm not sure where this would lead.

There are liberal Jews and conservative Jews. There are radical-left Jews and neocon Jews. Just because American Jewry, as a whole, tends to vote Democratic, doesn't mean that we could ever come to the same conclusion as an entire community.

It would be nice to think that a common religion would somehow cast a foundation for civil debate on these topics, unlike the intolerate, hate-filled tone of public discourse we generally see today. But beyond that, where would this go? We'd probably agree to disagree and move on.

[Chautauqua]

116. Um Gee

Thanks for the advice. We American Jews who voted better than 3:1 against Bush (second only to African Americans in support for Kerry) are certainly glad you've decided to tell us what to think.

By the way, the largest group of American Jews (The Union for Reform Judaism representing over 60% of the Jews in the US) passed the following declarations at the biennial conference last month:

• Opposed to the Iraq war and calling for a timetable for withdrawal and a release of White House documents
• Opposed the Alito nomination
• Condemned the politicization of Science in the US
• Called on the US to follow the UN Millenium Plan on global hunger, poverty and trade
• Called for improvements in US worker's rights
• Called for the US to improve it's record on Human Rights and criticized the US failures in that area
• Called for a US ban on torture
• Called for a ban on use of the Confederate Battle Flag as part of US state flags

But, hey, you're right. We really need you telling us what we should believe. Now, care to tell us how your ethnic and religious groups publicly stand on these issues. (Be sure to include ALL members and not exclude those who you don't think are "real" members)

[dusmcj]

119. no one told you what to believe

But I expected at least one response like yours. My commentary was that the tradition of advocacy for social progress coming from the US Jewish community was at odds with a growing trend towards affiliation with some decidedly unprogressive (with a small 'p' and no trademark or other brand symbols following it) sociopolitical groupings on the American scene, and that taking this in combination with the expression of concern on the part of some members of the Jewish community at American fascist conservatives, there might be cause for some increased internal dialog within the community about its sociopolitical priorities. Nowhere in there, do I suggest what anyone should think (aside from us hopefully being able to agree whether two viewpoints contradict each other or not, that's about logic and if we can't agree on that, let's just go home and donate to the Christian Coalition since we'll be as incapable of rational thought as they are).

The declarations from the Union for Reform Judaism you cite by the way are great - lead the way!

Me, I'm a white protestant male of recent northern European extraction. Here in the US, many of my ethnic fellows are distinctly part of the problem, in that they like the psychic drugs the Repubicans and other conservatives push on them ("I feel strong so I feel good, the enemy being my own weakness") and have handed over their cultural heritage with both hands. That cultural heritage which, while it at other times in transmuted form caused horrific suffering (although _not_ without par elsewhere and elsewhen in history), 225 years ago gave us the structure for this country. And yet, the tradition of personal responsibility for one's relationship with one's fellows, one's world and with one's God, is not entirely lost, and where that is still understood, and it is a given that that approach to life must manifest itself in civic action as a member of the People, my people do their part to maintain hope and possibility even as others drive our culture to degeneracy and decay. The common themes which all the great religions have identified in some form transcend ethnic and cultural boundaries and are absolute with respect to them, and all communities must take the time to discuss among themselves first how they want to position themselves with respect to the dichotomy between what is right and what serves greed. As I said, there is no hope or desire for homogeneity, nevermind conformity. But if the conversation doesn't happen, particularly when events say that having it is incumbent on us, then we defer to later work which will become more arduous since we missed the moment.

Peace and solidarity to you.

[Chautauqua]

121. Gee

Funny how you've got a "growing trend toward affiliation with some decidedly unprogressive" groupings but offer nothing to back up tying that to American Jews. So, please, unless you actually have some data, please stop the condescending view of telling us what we belive and how we should change.

Looking at who supports what and in what numbers, your "advice" is better targeted at people who could use it. We're doinng just fine.

[No Exit]

126. Gee. "Peace and solidarity to you" isn't good enough.

Not to mention the rest of his very reasonable post.

Clearly, nothing is good enough for you.

[No Exit]

125. Gee, gee, gee

The poster came out right in the front, acknowledging a debt of gratitude to Jewish people who had been at the forefront in doing good things for the country.

But that's not good enough for you. In your book, we unwashed are not allowed to even acknowledge that there is a group of people who are called "Jewish".

Okay, carry that to its logical conclusion. Everyone forgets that there is such a group, and Jewish people are looked at exactly the same as others are viewed.

Then suddenly someone--perhaps you--wishes to celebrate the traditions of Jewish people. We are then reminded that Jewish people are a distinct group with a long history, worthy of celebration.

You can't have it both ways. No group is a sacred cow. As I said in my earlier post, welcome to the club. What in the HELL is wrong with welcoming someone??? Except to touchy people who may just be a bit prejudiced against people who aren't of their own group.

[progressivebydesign]

115. I'm not Jewish, and they threaten me as well.

I can't understand why so many reasonable people are not resisting the religious right's move to impose THEIR beliefs on every single person in America. They need to get out our business and run their own dysfunctional damn families. Frankly, I think the whole religious right fervor is more about a handful of people making millions off of followers that are either too traumatized by 9/11, or caught up in the commericalization of christ, or just plain ignorant to know that they're being had.

[zara]

120. Maybe in general, but sure are a lot of conservative Jews in Bushco

[Chautauqua]

122. Nope

There are just a few but BushCo LOVES to put them up front. I dare you to find more than a handful. (By the same logic you could say, Maybe in general, but there sure are a lot of conservative African-Americans in BushCo and use that statement to make silly assumptions about how Blacks are now turning conservative)

[No Exit]

128. What is this? A crusade?

No matter what anyone says, it's not good enough.

I fully expect you to push "abuse" and "cut and run" screaming to the mods because maybe you are getting tired of smacking down everyone who presumes to express a viewpoint on this thread--unless they express a viewpoint which is in lockstep with your own.

It's just this sort of implacability which is the hallmark of lockstep republicans. No, I'm not saying you're a republican. I'm saying that looking at their glaring faults can help us learn not to be like them.

[Chautauqua]

130. No

It's a crusade by people who bought into the Bush manufactured meme that "Jews support Bush" when every single fact shows it's not true. And then they get defensive when anyone objects to them telling Jews how they SHOULD behave based on that lie that they insist on believing.

Pot, meet kettle.

[No Exit]

131. But Jews did support Bush.

SOME Jews. Did you get that? SOME Jews.

You are treating Jewish people as a monolithic group. They are not.

The original post mentioned them as a group--or a sub-group called "US Jews". I don't agree with that, either, b/c I am pretty sure that SOME "US Jews" DON'T feel threatened by the religious right. (Maybe they count on the inherent wrongness of the religious right to be so obvious to everyone, that people will not listen to the religious right. So that would make them feel un-threatened.)

"Telling Jews how they SHOULD behave". Give me a break. Critiquing the behavior of human beings is what political discussion is all about. Is this a political forum? Is a forum a place for discussion?

"Every single fact". You have every single fact at your disposal. I bow to your insuperable powers, then.

Numerous posters, including myself, have amply acknowledged the fact that great numbers of "US Jews" have vigorously advocated in opposition to the sort of fascist policies that the Bush administration seeks to foist on us.

Some Jews, and lots of non-Jews, support or supported Bush. (Do I have to tell you I've met some? You'll be wanting their private addresses, I presume.) Do I have to tell you I've read some columns by some others? Are you telling me that David Horowitz doesn't support Bush?

"Why are we in Iraq
by David Horowitz

In September 2001, President Bush put the matter very clearly: In the war on terror, either you're for us or against us. Democratic capitulators like Ted Kennedy have laid down their markers; the rest of us need to lay down ours."

https://www.donationreport.com/init/controller/ProcessEntryCmd?key=D8Q0U3W0R8

Those people, in my opinion, were/are wrong. (No, they weren't the ONLY ones who were/are wrong. Furthermore, it is a fact that some members of the loony Christian Right have a fascination with Israel which leads them to follow blindly whenever there is a chance of boosting Israel--even if that chance is detrimental to the U.S. (their own country.) This fascination led to a strange alliance which was exploited by Bush-pushers.

"Telling people how to behave" (which you condemn)... similar to telling people what to think (what you are doing). Pot, meet kettle.

[onenote]

138. yes "some" Jews supported Bush -- but a very small number

A number of posts here seem to think that a growing number of Jews have abandoned their historic preference for Democrats to climb into bed with repubs and are deserving of criticism for this. For starters, before making that assumption, it would help to check the facts. Those facts are that chimpy received less support from American Jews in 2000 and 2004 than Bush I received from American Jews in 1988. More Jews supported Reagan,Eisenhower, and even Nixon (in 1972)than have supported chimpy the last two elections. So if there is some sort of trend worth commenting on here, I'd like to understand what exactly it is.

onenote

[No Exit]

144. If you go strictly by a head count, I can see what you are saying.

I agree that it is a minority of Jews who supported Bush.

But what about other, more far-reaching, forms of support? I give you David Horowitz. Read him, if you haven't. He is absolutely on fire in his support of this whole neocon empire, including Bush.

There are many gifted writers and persuaders among Jews. They can have a real effect.

I was just so used to seeing Jewish people in general go more for what is called the "liberal" side of things; it was downright startling when I began to notice some influential Jewish people who were against democrats, against liberals. Look at Jonah Goldberg--and yes, I know his mother is not Jewish, but he definitely takes his paternal Jewish roots into account in his personal identity. Horowitz. Jewish World Review (please tell me that that publication is not really Jewish, but is only calling itself Jewish!)

Scooter Libby. Feith and Perle and Wolfowitz. Chertoff. Negroponte. Ben Ginsburg. Eliot Abrams. Judith Miller. (Okay, she's half Jewish.) Jack Abramoff is connected to Bush as surely as he is connected to many other repubs--don't forget he brokered that $9,000,000 deal where that African president bought an audience with the austere President Bush. How about that Cohen guy at the Washington Post? The one who comes out with those incredible Bush-butt-kissing articles that make all of us roll our eyes in disbelief that ANYONE could be such a shill for Bush. Then there's the ubiquitous Bill Kristol. Charles Krauthammer. Wolf Blitzer. Joe Lieberman. Diane Feinstein (whose husband is minting money in Iraq due to contracts awarded by the * administration.)

This is not a majority of Jews. But this is a group of influential people. These people are not just regular "one vote" people like me, who have nothing but a single vote to offer to a politician.

I don't think any of the above are stupid people. At least in the case of some others who kiss Bush's ass, we can say, well, they're just dullards. (Tucker Carlson comes to mind.) So what in the hell is wrong with these people??

Next week: we ask what in the hell is wrong with Tony Snow, Brit Hume, Joe Scarborough, Walter Williams, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, the entire gentile staff of the National Review, Chris Matthews, Tony Blair, that athlete's wife who wrote those venomous columns in defense of Shrubby, Bill Clinton, the Beltway Boys, and the non-Jewish residents of Crawford, Texas.

[onenote]

155. similar claims are made about every administration, it seems

Clinton appointed a record number of Jews to his cabinet, including Reich, Rubin, Summers (and Sandy Berger, although I don't know if his post was actually cabinet level)as well as two Jewish Supreme Court justices (Ginsburg and Breyer). It was not uncommon to hear critics complain of the "Jewish cabal" in the Clinton White House. And when chimpy came to town, there was much written about the fact that his initial cabinet had no Jews at all. Of course, there are a number of Jews in influential positions in chimpy's administration. Of course, Nixon had Kissinger, too. Its really a case of the more things change, the more they stay the same.

onenote

[No Exit]

186. I just get a lot less "cognitive dissonance" when I see someone like

Clinton, and the democratic party, having a "Jewish cabal". It seems right to me because I am accustomed to seeing the majority of Jews stand in favor of democratic values.

It just bothers me to see some of them backing the frikkin' fascists who are in power now. Don't those people know they are in danger of "becoming the abyss"?

[onenote]

187. agreed, and the same thing for african americans

like Condi and others who serve the repubs...

onenote

[No Exit]

196. To me, Condi's identity is that of

"Oil Company Board Member"--not "Successful Black Woman".

As an oil company board member (not at the moment, since she's doing her reward-stint in government), she is an enemy of black people--and, for that matter, of white people, too.

[Chautauqua]

158. So

You've gone from "There sure are a lot" to there are "SOME" just like in every administration.

OK. Short of the Nazi party and the KKK, your new statement is true of every large group in the country.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

140. Welcome to OUR world.

Duh.

[adigal]

141. I feel threatend by right wing Catholic friends

and I have always been Catholic. Not sure if I am anymore, because if they are representative of where the Catholic Church, under "Hitler Youth" Ratzinger, is going, I am out of there. For good. They are nuts.

[Malikshah]

143. I live in S. Fla. Followed a car with numerous bumper stickers

All pro-Israel, etc.

All pro-Bush-Cheney.

I wouldn't have noticed them, but the car cut me off. All I could think of was that some folks are barking up the wrong tree and have extremely short term goals in mind...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

147. They're not the only ones to feel threatened by the rightwing goons.

[PhilipShore]

151. They should not take it personally...

the Repukes hate everyone and everything--that is not a member of the communist party--excuse me I mean the Republican Party.

And to get right to my point--if Christ had never even existed--the Republican extremist fundamentalist(Repukes) would if they only had communism in their world hate anyone or anything that is not communism.

And one of the fundamental points of communism is that they have no God and --are intolerant-- of anyone that believes in God.

[dusmcj]

153. optimism is another drug pushed by the fascists

"Here, have another toke and ignore the stormtroopers in the town square".

When negativity is banished, it will take with it the capacity to analyze, to disassemble and evaluate, prevailing physical conditions and identify what is wrong amidst them, how they can be changed to improve the human condition, etc.

If we're all just busy being cheery, we are in danger of not being able, or refusing, to pay attention to conditions that are flawed and need improvement.

You need both: optimism for the future, pessimism about the present. Realism about the past proves this.

And recall throughout all this that the attempt to reduce all questions to starkly contrasting opposites which produces a restricted choice among two alternatives is:
- a fatally simplistic view of any situation
- can be an attempt to restrict your choices - alternatives are presented to you instead of you identifying them yourself
- is an easy excuse for not exerting oneself intellectually by those who like to claim that life is simple
- is currently a conservative tactic for controlling debate - "It's 'bout good vs. evil".

All this in response to previous discussion in this thread about whether to be optimistic about a variety of issues.

Keep hope alive, cause it's the one thing we can't lose, but set it in opposition to solid understanding of what's wrong and needs changing.

[goclark]

156. I can see that, I am Christian and I

feel threatened by the Religious Right too.

[The Flaming Red Head]

160. In baptist sunday school I was told that all JEWS are going to hell

I was in 4th grade and I remember being torn to shreds by a sunday school teacher and ridiculed by the entire class because someone pointed out that my parents had Jewish friends and I refused to say that they were all going to burn in hell.

Mom was Catholic and dad was Methodist, so I have no idea how they ended up sending me to that satan's den. (it was down the street from our house and was on the same street David Duke used to live on) I refused to go back and will not attend any church, it left me scarred for life. You won't ever catch me in a Church unless I have to, to vote and then I hate it.

[Robeson]

161. Baptist can be funny.....

...They've just never figured out that the guy they worship, was a Jew...

[Chautauqua]

163. Hey, it could be worse

There was a time when some Anglicans insisted that Jesus was obviously an Englishman.

[Ladyhawk]

164. I'm not Jewish, but I'm afraid of those nutcases, too. n/t

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chautauqua]

168. OK. You're broken

Sony?

[Colorado Blue]

170. Hello? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Maybe we also run the banks, the media, the government, the CIA, the FBI, the White House, the planet, the Mossad - oh wait a second, we probably DO run that one.

Please give ME a break.

[Rocknrule]

183. Are they Nazis yet?

[Behind the Aegis]

184. huh?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

191. Why would they it's not like according to their beliefs all

heathens will burn in a lake of fire. On second thought.....

[UrbScotty]

194. You're right. As a Catholic/proogressive Christian, I feel dismayed.

The 'religious' right seems to have ignored the Gospels.