Sources: White House to Accept Torture Ban

[Tab]

WASHINGTON - After months of resistance, the White House has agreed to accept Sen. John McCain's call for a law specifically banning cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of foreign suspects in the war on terror, several congressional officials said Thursday.

Under the emerging deal, the CIA and other civilian interrogators would be given the same legal rights as currently guaranteed members of the military who are accused of breaking interrogation guidelines, these officials added. Those rules say the accused can defend themselves by arguing it was reasonable for them to believe they were obeying a legal order.

The congressional officials spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they did not want to pre-empt an expected announcement later in the day at the White House, possibly by
President Bush and McCain.
...
A day earlier, the House endorsed the Senate-passed ban, agreeing that the United States needed to set uniform guidelines for the treatment of prisoners in the war on terror and to make clear that U.S. policy prohibits torture.
...
The White House long has contended that the United States does not engage in torture.
More: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051215/ap_on_go_co/congress_detainees

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. poor DICK Cheney. He can't play with his prisoners any more.

boo hoo. to jail with you,
you're an asshole.

(the war criminal veep, not you, Tab)

[wicket]

8. Maybe he realizes he could soon be one of them

n/t

[saigon68]

44. HE IS A THUG AND A WAR CRIMINAL

[wicket]

45. Amen to that

And he belongs behind bars!!!!!!!

[DELUSIONAL]

20. Oh . . . so now we know what he was doing in the basement of his

house -- you know the house that Al Gore used to live in and that demonstrators picketed demanding that Al Gore leave Cheney's house. And then there was all that underground construction noise that the neighbors were complaining about.

Now we know what he was doing . . . constructing torture units so he could get exactly the "intelligence" he wanted.

Who would think to look for "missing" people under Dickie Cheney's house??? After all he has full time guards . . . . .

[ellenfl]

2. it's easy for them to back the ban now, thay have already

changed the relevant treatment of prisoners section in the military handbook to loosen the restrictions on what they could consider torture.

ellen fl

[Spazito]

9. Exactly! The pentagon has already done a run around on this

so any agreement is superfluous, imo.

The Army has approved a new, classified set of interrogation methods that may complicate negotiations over legislation proposed by Senator John McCain to bar cruel and inhumane treatment of detainees in American custody, military officials said Tuesday.

The techniques are included in a 10-page classified addendum to a new Army field manual that was forwarded this week to Stephen A. Cambone, the under secretary of defense for intelligence policy, for final approval, they said.

snip

Some military officials said the new guidelines could give the impression that the Army was pushing the limits on legal interrogation at the very moment when Mr. McCain, Republican of Arizona, is involved in intense three-way negotiations with the House and the Bush administration to prohibit the cruel treatment of prisoners.

more

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/politics/14detain.html?hp&ex=1134536400&en=a7c8f18a1a4771c9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Unless McCain has said no agreement unless the 'new' methods of interrogation are no different than that of the Geneva Conventions and those under the US Code, this agreement means little, imo.

[JPZenger]

42. NPR Missed This, Jon Stewart Caught It

NPR had a long story on the torture issue this morning. Their reporter completely missed this critical point that the Army has simply redefined torture in a classified document, so they can do whatever they want. It is pure coincidence that the manual was changed at the same time the White House agreed to not veto the torture ban.

Fortunately, Jon Stewart's staff didn't miss this, and it was reported on last night's program.

[KansDem]

3. Bush was heard to mutter, "That'll take all the fun out of Presidentin'"

Ahhhh :(

[yorkiemommie1]

29. he, cheney, et. al

can go back to pulling the wings off flies and blowing up frogs.

[cal04]

4. White House agrees to McCain's torture policy

White House agrees to McCain's torture policy
Bush gives in to Ariz. senator's ban after months of wrangling, officials say

After months of resistance, the White House has agreed to accept Sen. John McCain’s call for a law specifically banning cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of foreign suspects in the war on terror, several congressional officials said Thursday.

The congressional officials spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they did not want to pre-empt an expected announcement later in the day at the White House, possibly by President Bush and McCain.

These officials also cautioned the agreement was encountering opposition in the House from Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10480690/

[mike_c]

5. uh-huh-- with a built-in way of circumventing the ban....

A pre-arranged legal defense. Pigs.

[Ian David]

6. "I was only following orders" is to be a permitted defense

Under the emerging deal, the CIA and other civilian interrogators would be given the same legal rights as currently guaranteed members of the military who are accused of breaking interrogation guidelines, these officials added. Those rules say the accused can defend themselves by arguing it was reasonable for them to believe they were obeying a legal order.

Then again, that would give people an incentive to point their fingers further up the chain of command.

[neweurope]

15. May I remember Nuremburg? At the Nazi trials it was stated that

it was NO excuse to argue "it was reasonable for them to believe they were obeying a legal order." The AMERICANS there established a "rule" that was supposed to be changing everything, binding everybody... but the United States of America.

----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[daleo]

18. One law for Nazis, another for the Bush regime

Apparently Nazis are expected to behave in a more civilized fashion than the Bush directed military.

[iconoclastNYC]

7. They just rewrote the Armed Services Field Manual.

"Classified" section on torture to match the White House definition of torture.

Mission accomplished.

"The UNITED STATES does not Torture" (we have people do it for us)

[superconnected]

10. He only kicked and scream and fought it for months.

It must be hard to be a mass murder and have to deal with people expecting you to be humane.

I bet condi had to spend hours convincing him why he should after congress voted for it.

Maybe she promised him he could kill a puppy. Who knows.

[yellowcanine]

11. Poor smirky. "I'm president so I get to decide" ain't cutting it anymore.

It is like taking the crayons away from a 2-yr-old because he was drawing on the walls.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

12. They'll simply redefine the meaning of

"cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment". The abuse will NOT be discontinued.

When the new North African torture center's location is discovered and exposed, I wonder where they will shuttle them off to next? Perhaps this is their chance to finally become buddy-buddy with North Korea?

[redqueen]

13. Fraud

I wish McCain had the stones to call them on it!

[arikara]

14. They'll simply do what they want anyhow

Who is going to catch them at it, charge them, make the charges stick? Sad to say, they plan to go on as they always have.

[realFedUp]

23. I agree with you...this administration has no checkers or balancers.

Nice political points given to McCain though...

[Donovan61]

16. They're going nuts over in Freeper land

I was just checking out the creeps' thread on this subject. They are all pissed at Bush for "caving" to McCain. As usual, anybody who doesn't agree with them is unpatriotic, this despite the fact that McCain and Chuck Hagel are both decorated Vietnam vets. Like the chickenhawk Bush, I'm sure most freeps sat out that war and probably all the ones since.

[cassiepriam]

17. Doesn't mean anything, the rules are made to be broken.

[Solly Mack]

19. Muthafuck - and to think people will "praise" this piece of shit

when ALL it accomplished was making it harder to prosecute the CIA and civilian interrogators for torture and engaging in cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment

Under ALREADY Existing law that isn't being enforced by ANYONE at all, the CIA and civilian contractors can't torture or engage in cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment - and -...and this is the important part - there is NO exception for the CIA or contractors to plead " I thought I was following a legal order" - but thanks to McCain, there will be such an easy out for the CIA and civilian contractors now

WTG fucking go America! Way to pay fucking attention to the laws ALREADY on the books. Way to know what the fuck is going on in your world!

YAY! for you, America...

I may pop a goddamn motherfucking sonofabitching vessel. I fucking give up on America.

[bullimiami]

21. what I think is that is a way for these monsters to pretend innocence.

they know its fucking illegal as hell both internationally and domestically. they deserve to be put in jail and the key thrown away. but they will PRETEND that its a new law and that all of the old laws dont exist.

ITS BULLSHIT. If mccain had any balls or integrity he would be calling for this administration to be prosecuted for war crimes including torture. But he didnt did he? No he is a bush enabler. He is complicit in their crimes.

[Solly Mack]

22. Thank you!

Thank you, a hundred times , Thank you.

[EFerrari]

38. Exactly. It's bullshit. And I don't for a second believe

that McCain has done anything but provide his blackmailers with a fig leaf.

[baldguy]

24. Bush Accepts McCain's Ban on Torture

WASHINGTON - President Bush reversed course on Thursday and accepted Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record)'s call for a law banning cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of foreign suspects in the war on terror.

Bush said the agreement will "make it clear to the world that this government does not torture and that we adhere to the international convention of torture, whether it be here at home or abroad."

more:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=ApDZ..6P5PKuY4oAqJ8qFQis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Is this an agreement to ban what the world calls torture, or what Alberto Gonsalez calls torture?

[MidwestTransplant]

25. FLIP FLOP

[T Roosevelt]

26. Wait - didn't they change the Army Field Manual?

to get around his amendment?

[annabanana]

30. YUP!

Jon Stewart even called them on it last night on the Daily Show. It really pisses me off that corpoMedia can just IGNORE the facts that the bushies don't like!

And shame on McCain for letting them put his name on this travesty.

[Ilsa]

27. Naaahhh. Bush has Duncan Hunter ready to hold it up.

I don't know how this all works, but I bet Bush surreptiously spoke with Hunter yesterday or this morning to get him to crap on McCain's deal so Bush won't have to live with it, but will appear he is all for McCain's reforms.

[cascadiance]

36. Duncan Hunter's also speaking to keep his bad google hits showing!

If you google him now, all you get is pages of this torture bill, instead of anything following up on the Raw Story expose article yesterday! I wonder if that's a strategy in Rove's playbook these days. They also had Cunningham speak out heavily on the flag burning bills shortly after he was nailed for stuff earlier. The latest Rovian media obfuscation and distraction strategy.

[Orrex]

28. Either way, it's bullshit

"this government does not torture and that we adhere to the international convention of torture, whether it be here at home or abroad."

So this government does not torture, but that says nothing about military personnel, the CIA, nor foreign countries to which we "render" our soon-to-be-tortured detainees.

As usual, it's one of Dubya's bullshit non-statements that will make the media fall all over itself in its effort to praise him as a strong, moral leader who speaks out against torture.

[woodcutter]

31. I agree. Flip Flop

[Hyernel]

32. They'll still torture...

They'll just work harder to keep it secret. They're just doing this as a PR tactic to make the issue go away.

[BiggJawn]

33. They must have figured out a LOOPHOLE....n/t

[VegasWolf]

34. Wow! This must have the FReepers in a head spinning, sputtering, and

nonsense syllable mode! McCain telling their precious leader WHAT TO DO. And little Georgie complying with McCain over Cheney. Too much!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[cascadiance]

35. Yup, here's an example and how they're blaming the ACLU!

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/12/15/mccain-bush-agree-on-torture-ban-still-not-good-enough-aclu/

[stickdog]

37. Wow! The POTUS actually ACCEPTED the 8th Amendment???

Praise the Lord! It only takes the vast majority of Americans, the vast majority of Congressmen and the entire court system to force our dictator to pay lip service to the Bill of Rights!

[savemefromdumbya]

39. President Relents, Backs Torture Ban (BUT WHERE WAS CHENEY?)

President Relents, Backs Torture Ban after months of White House attempts to weaken the measure, but the Vice President was noticably absent? I wonder how 'Mr Torture' is taking this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121502241.html?referrer=email

[Loonman]

40. Another gift dropped into the Dem's laps

Quick, Dean, blurt out something without thinking that everybody will misunderstand because you didn't qualify your statement, then retract it, then clarify it.

Repeat if necessary.

[savemefromdumbya]

43. where was cheney?

[mikelgb]

41. This is no suprise...

On the Colbert Report last night he had a segment saying that Cheny and Rummy simply had the Army Field Manual changed to modify the definition of torture...
Can anybody cooborate?

[Zodiak]

47. how about reading the thread

there you will find your corroboration

[Thorandmjolnir]

46. Just like I feared

This IS NOT A VICTORY for anti torture:

"Under the emerging deal, the CIA and other civilian interrogators would be given the same legal rights as currently guaranteed members of the military who are accused of breaking interrogation guidelines, these officials added. Those rules say the accused can defend themselves by arguing it was reasonable for them to believe they were obeying a legal order."

The current rules does not allow for any such defense:

United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 113C - TORTURE

Section 2340A. Torture

(a) Offense. - Whoever outside the United States commits or
attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to
any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be
punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction. - There is jurisdiction over the activity
prohibited in subsection (a) if -
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States,
irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged
offender.
(c) Conspiracy. - A person who conspires to commit an offense
under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other
than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the
offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.


Notice that the current rules says "whoever...." No exceptions. What McCain did was to weaken the torture statute, while at the same time appear to actually be against torture. Smart, but very dishonest. In reality, there was no need what so ever for this change.