Gallup: Poll Finds Americans' Belief in God Remains Strong

[sabra]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001659292

Gallup: Poll Finds Americans' Belief in God Remains Strong


NEW YORK A new Gallup survey released today finds that four decades after the "God Is Dead" controversy was first noted, Americans retain a strong belief in a higher power. Some 94% think God exists.

Only 5% feel God "does not exist" -- and even most of them "are not sure" of that. Exactly 1% are certain there is no God.

But how strongly do the believers believe? Nearly 8 in 10, in fact, say they are "convinced" God exists, although Gallup does not ask them why that is.

Conservatives are more likely to be convinced than liberals (87% vs. 61%), women a little more likely than men (82% vs. 73%), and residents of the South more than those in the East (88% vs. 70%).

[melody]

1. They never ask the respondents to define "god"

That's why these polls are useless. Most Americans are, from birth, culturally intimidated to genuflect at the altar of godism, but if the answers were scrutinized more carefully, we'd see
the same degrees of agnosticism versus gnosticism versus insanity as any other European country.

[Zynx]

13. "godism"? The correct term is theism.

If we start using infantile names, I might as well just call atheism "no-godism".

[melody]

23. Obviously, it was a coinage

Meant to convey a different meaning than "theism", which should be obvious in context.

I write for a living. Let me choose my words and I'll let you choose yours. ;)

[anotherdrew]

16. I was just about to make the same point. what do people think it means?

the point of this is to enforce black and white thinking. Either "you believe in god" (as defined by mass culture, the religious right basically) or you're an pure materialistic atheist. It's not even that they ignore "the middle ground" - their are whole other axis of possibility. Of course god forbid corporate american culture acknowledge anything complex, oh no... everything has to come down to a two way choice that they will then give to you. "enjoy your freedom sir!"

[melody]

26. Precisely

It's just created to market religion to the masses. Its pointless. The "godism" is inherent in it (and I use "godism" to represent a political religiosity versus "theism" which is traditional and can be the purview of sane people, too).

[Protagoras]

36. Rich, white, male, english speaking god

who wears a toga and likes trumpet music. Oh and despite the fact that he is all encompassing of the whole universe, WE are his primary concern and he's very invested in us throwing ourselves to the ground and begging him for stuff, and if we don't do it right he burns us in hell forever. If we're good we get to sleep on clouds and drive our cars on gold cobblestone roads. Oh and while he won't appear in public, he does appear to prefer to speak directly to very rich men who appear on TV wearing Armani suits telling us all about who he loves and who he hates...and healing us as long as we send them money.

I think that's pretty close to how most people around here see him.

But the idea that the world floats on the back of a giant turtle or that it was created by the Coyote or Raven...or that it's simply always been here is absurd.

We can't understand the idea of a universe that's always existed and which over time spawned various forms of random life that competed with each other and evolved as a result.

But we can understand the idea of a cosmic father who always existed and who created a universe where various life forms exist and compete with each other and change as a result.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[arewenotdemo]

39. Nicely done!

Occam's Razor:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Infinite Universe or Infinite Creator (of said Universe)?

Let me see.....

Love those Native American creation myths.

[melody]

Granted, I live in California

But I only know a couple of people who even attend church. Very few of my friends or acquaintances consider "god" as anything more than a metaphor or even a verb.

I would say many Americans see it as a white-bearded old guy who gets his nuts off with mass death and suffering, but it's not most of us.

[followthemoney]

121. God is one of many gods, named, confusingly, "God"

It is like having a dog named "Dog".

Unless he is that big fat fellow who miraculously slides down the chimney in his red suit.

[tocqueville]

2. it's not the belief in God which bothers me

but the belief in religious teachings like the age of earth, Adam and Eve etc...

[still_one]

3. why didn't gallop also ask how many believe in god

and at the same time believe that we should torture prisoners, make pre-emptive strikes that kill tens of thousands of civillians, and are happy about the execution today?

[kevsand]

4. Hey, I've always believed in God.

I just learned a long time ago that I could never believe anything anyone ever tried to tell me about God...

[NoodleBoy]

5. not suprised at all

and yes, that 6% is such a threat to religion, god, christmas, democracy, and marriage. Oh yeah, and sarcasm.

[UrbScotty]

6. My strong belief in God and in Jesus Christ is why I'm a Democrat.

It's the whole "Peace On Earth" thing.

Well, that and the Beatitudes.

[Hekate]

106. It always warms my heart to hear that

:toast:

During that stupid debate about Christmas in the House, a few people did bring up the Beatitudes.

Hekate

[Rowdyboy]

7. 61% of liberals believe in God.....On DU the number is closer to 20%

We may be many things here at DU, but we are NOT representative of the Democratic party as a whole. Not by a long shot.

[Zynx]

11. Liberals on the DU are far to the left of most American liberals.

I am a Christian and do my best to use Jesus' teachings to guide my actions in life.

[Historic NY]

29. Nah, you really think so, I tilt more the other way.................

I wouldn't say the vast majority here are that far out left. Maybe on some issues.

[Zynx]

35. Compared to the majority of the Democratic Party, they are far left.

[hogwyld]

51. Which is why I'm so disillusioned with the Dems

They keep playing to the center, the religious, semi repuke crowd, when their base has always been far left of center. If the Dems adopted a hardcore progressive platform, they would collect the votes of the greens, socialists, athiests, and other left leaning parties.

[Psephos]

99. My heart is with you, but my head has other ideas

The Dem base is not "far left of center." Political belief, like almost everything else human, follows a Gaussian distribution ("bell curve") with the top of the bell toward the middle.

Don't take my word for it. Pew Research did an extraordinary (and comprehensible!) analysis of the American electorate. Take the time to read it...I guarantee that afterward you will set aside some cherished myths, not only about the typical Dem voter, but also the typical repug voter.

Here's the link:

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/196.pdf

This should be on every DUer's night-table, next to Saul Alinsky and George Lakoff. How can we expect to win elections if we don't understand the electorate? Facts trump opinions every time.

Peace.


PS Hogwyld, I love your posts...keep 'em coming. :-)

[pokercat999]

104. lol about 7% of the vote, the real question is

how do we get the other 93% to THINK?

[Moosepoop]

72. Where does the 20% figure come from?

Has there been a study of religious leanings on DU?

[PurityOfEssence]

82. I'll bet far more than half of the people on this board believe in god

Take it from a non-believer who's engaged in endless tussles on the subject ever since starting here in the spring of 2001. On occasion there will be an anti-religious thread that won't garner that much opposition, but it's usually from sensible non-confrontation. Most threads (both rational and flaming) have very vigorous and broad involvement by believers taking issues with non-believers. If many of the threads are started by non-believers slinging mud at belief, let's just say that there's lots of deserved mud to be slung. When was the last time you heard of a non-believer killing or maiming her kids?

People of faith who get their hackles up with the presence of many vocal non-believers need to address some serious moral issues about this board: it's a refuge for those of us who feel at odds with an increasingly conservative media. As such, we all get the joy of knowing we're not alone and the reassurance that all is not lost, but we also have to recognize that frustrations will also be vented that run contrary to our own.

Far too many believers think they own this country, and that's a problem on the right and left. Far too many believe that to be a decent person, one must believe in the supernatural. Far too many don't like to address the very real issue of there being more non-believers than is generally reported. Far too many hide behind their affiliations to slag those of differing opinions for being aggressive, when justifying their own cultural aggression. Lastly, far too many believers have a bigotry against non-believers, considering them somewhat inferior, and this is coupled with the fear that we're poisoning the upright citizens against liberalism or whatever ism is favored at the moment.

I know full well the extreme prejudice against non-believers in this society, and I shy away from making belief even a glancing issue in politics; we have much bigger fish to fry. I wish Newdow would go away, even though he is absolutely correct: "under god" is a state-sponsored endorsement of religion and a reminder to others that they don't belong, and "god" should not be on the money. Allowing these encroachments has set the stage for weasels to cite "ceremonial deism" to use as a justification for the onward march to theocracy. He shouldn't raise it now, though, because it's a terrible wedge issue. This country is in crisis, and until it gets back in the hands of sane and pluralist hands, we all need to swallow some annoyances. I wish gay marriage hadn't come up last year; I seriously doubt the Republicans could have gotten close enough too steal the election if they hadn't had a grand old opportunity to marshall the forces of hate. It was an unfortunate accident of history, and that's that. (Hey, at least that step toward modernity is being taken, though, and it'll show its detractors as the troglodytes they are...)

This board is nowhere near anti-religious.

[ananda]

8. OK, but..

.. there's a big difference between being a theist and a crazy christofascist.

[Zynx]

15. True. Those who are actually what would be called "religious" is a far

smaller number. Many people have taken the view that you don't need church to be spiritual. Most European countries have a majority who would describe themselves as believers, but have very small numbers of actual religious adherents.

[Beetwasher]

9. Whatever

Humans are so fucked up and needy. Lazy too, for the most part.

[MindPilot]

10. "Do you believe in God or do you kill kittens for fun?"

One never knows how the question is worded and Gallup seems really good at returning with the "correct" results--if you catch my drift.

[Zynx]

12. They probably worded it as "a God or Gods".

If you said the "Judeo-Christian-Islamic God" I would venture it would be closer to 75%. Many people have unconventional beliefs about God as I have discovered here in Madison. Many believe in a god, but not the Christian God.

[nashville_brook]

14. sounds like an Onion headline...

Gallup is a bunch of xtian-repub wackos.

[depakid]

31. Yeah, it does

but you can't tell people how absurd these "polls" are- or that they're used to influence public opinion- and not reflect it. Most won't listen, no matter how much evidence you show them.

[joefree1]

17. My belief in all the Gods is strong

Too left? Not left enough?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

[virtual disobedience]

125. Pascal's Wager

That's always been my problem with Pascal's Wager:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

"Pascal argues that it is always a better "bet" to believe in God, because the expected value to be gained from believing in God is always greater than the expected value resulting from non-belief. Note that this is not an argument for the existence of God, but rather one for the belief in God."

How can you believe in all possible gods? Some of whom are notoriously jealous?


For all your Pro-Science needs:
http://www.darwinsrevenge.com

[NorthernSpy]

18. ...whereas among our smartest scientists, atheism is more common...

... than religious belief.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism6.htm

Indeed, disbelief seems more pronounced among what Leuba defined as the "greater" scientists, reaching the 90% mark in the new study. "NAS biologists are the most skeptical," notes Larson and Witham, "with 95% of our respondents (NAS) evincing atheism and agnosticism." Similarly, as intellectual historian Paul K. Conkin observes, "Today the higher the educational attainment, or the higher the scores earned on intelligence or achievement tests, the less likely are individuals to be Christians."

Interesting. I hope America's believing majority will consider that before they start in with the usual atheist-bashing.

[papau]

111. A bit of a lie - but whatever floats your boat - indeed there is no

correlation and majority theist is the situation in the top IQ folks.

I addressed this 6 months ago with the actual studies that show these facts - but one can google and get them, or use the search function on DU and wade through my last 6 months of postings and find it (a cruel and unusual punishment prohibited by our Constitution).

Indeed if man is a rational being and 93% believe in God, then does it not follow that it is rational to believe in God.

Indeed does it not follow that the 7% that are unsure or do not believe are being irrational and need help?

:-)

I am just having fun with numbers and the "who is high IQ/rational" post you tossed out. I love all my fellow DUers - almost all my fellow Dems - and the vast majority of my fellow humans!

:toast:

:-)

[MGKrebs]

19. God is a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Strong Atheist]

118. No! See my sig ... nt.

[gratuitous]

20. This poll seems pretty useless

As others have pointed out, without some basic definitions, it doesn't much matter whether someone "believes" in God's existence. And the erroneous citation to the "God is Dead" controversy doesn't help the credibility of the article's writer.

In 1964, John A.T. Robinson came out with a book "Honest to God," in which he said that the old forms of referring to God were dead. That is, the notion of God as some white-bearded white man who looked suspiciously like Charlton Heston in "The Ten Commandments" movie throwing thunderbolts and flying around. Robinson instead said that in a post-modern world, religious thinkers should be considering new ways to talk about God, ways that spoke more meaningfully to changing sensibilities. His book was a theologian's treatise meant mainly for other theologians. The idea, however, crossed over into mainstream discourse and quickly became a rallying point for religious conservatives, scared down to their toenails by then-recent developments including the Civil Rights Movement in the United States, and the Vatican II accords out of the Catholic Church. They dubbed it the "God is Dead" controversy, conflating Robinson's thoughts about the nature of religious discourse with an atheistic point of view in order to gain support for their own brand of "that old-time religion" and birthing the careers of such luminaries as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others.

I don't know what the writer of the article in the original post meant to refer to when he invoked the "God is Dead" controversy, but it looks like he's taking a back-handed swipe at liberals, eggheads and Eastern Elites.

[Beetwasher]

22. THAT'S The "God Is Dead" Controversy He Was Talking About????

What a fucking idiot, then. I thought the 40 years was a typo and he was talking about Nietzsche...:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

24. The Holocaust proved that God was very much dead!

The "God is Dead" was referring to the classic belief that God was the master of history, in total control of human events. The Holocaust created a crisis of belief: if God was indeed in control of human events, then He was a sorry sob responsible for the deaths of millions, if on the other hand, God chose to not interfere in human affairs so that we may all have free reign to exercise our will, then God was damned for not lifting a finger to stop the carnage.

The God of history is dead! Man created that God into his own image. Now we are free to pursue spirituality in accordance to our own conscience, free of the constraints of man's theology.

Man is capable of doing good or doing evil. There is no Satan, no Hell, no Heaven!

[Solon]

27. I agree...

Gene Roddenberry, of Star Trek fame, was a pantheist, so he would have answered yes to such a poll, but that doesn't put him on the same level as another theist, like Falwell or Robinson, not by a long shot. Same for many people, I know people who are Christians who believe in a more pantheistic or less personal God than more traditional christians. Hell, I know quite a few who believe in Karma as much as they do Jesus, the question is, how do you categorize such people? Same for me, as a Polytheist, with no qualifiers, this poll is less than useless, I would ask, "which God?".

[ozone_man]

45. I agree except that Roddenberry

was probably an atheist, at least that's how he's usually listed, not a pantheist. He just referred to himself as a humanist, and certainly wouldn't be safe, being a TV producer, to be known as an atheist, in the 60's anyway. But he certainly didn't believe in the type of god he described here:

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry

[Raster]

21. First of all, intelligent, questioning thinking is DISCOURAGED in the US

It takes courage to confront the god myth culture and jettison the baggage. The authority structure on this planet wants you to believe in god myths. It's easier to control you that way. It's also easier to rationalize damaging, illogical behavior with a myth belief system. Don't like reality, here, take it on faith.

[VegasWolf]

54. That is very true, it does require courage to step beyond the inundating

culture of one's environment and challenge old ideas!

[Kipling]

25. It's surprising how many people still believe.

Here in Britain, the figure is 62%, which seems incredibly high. Also interesting are the figures for who considers religion to be "very important" . This website http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm says:

53% of Americans
16% of Britons
14% of the French
13% of Germans

America would therefore be the only rich country where religion has an influence on the government.

[High Plains]

28. Yeah, and we pay a price for that.

[jkappy]

30. "women a little more likely than men (82% vs. 73%), "

this is one area in which men seem to outshine women. finally, i've found one.

[StoryTeller]

32. "Outshine"???

Um, I'm confused by this remark and a few of the others that seem to suggest that not believing in God is somehow a sign of greater intelligence or is a virtue or somehow better than believing in God. I'm NOT suggesting that the reverse is true, either--that believing in God is better. But why make a value judgment out of a poll that is simply descriptive?

I believe in God, and that belief has been a source of deep peace and guidance for my life. I'm also extremely intelligent, and my belief in God informs and directs my progressive political views. For the record, my husband is a physicist and also extremely intelligent and believes in God. Our beliefs have greatly benefitted and enriched our lives and the lives of those we come in contact with.

I would never advocate pressuring or forcing anyone to believe in God, but I also would not support denigrating those who do--anymore than I would support denigrating those who do not. I don't know what the poll's purpose was, but I think it would be more beneficial to use it to help us understand the culture we live in and our fellow human beings instead of using it to put down people who don't share our beliefs.

[tirechewer]

115. I'm not that confused by it....

I think a lot of people in this country are responding to the constant harassment and denigration by the Religious Right that says we all have to conform to their beliefs or we are lesser beings.

I'm beginning to see and hear more and more of those so called "Christians" whining now about how nobody wants to hear what they have to say and nobody likes them. I wonder why? They have tried to force feed us their religious beliefs, their concept of God while having elected a lying, dishonest manipulative government which seems determined to destroy everything this country used to be. I don't want to hear any more from them either. I am going to say what I want to say about them. If they take that as denigration, well then they need to toughen up. They set the rules for attack politics and attack religion and if they are going to have a problem living by them, they should have made a different contract with the rest of us.

I don't know what your religion is, or your concept of God, and frankly that's fine with me. People's definition of God is unique to them, and nobody's definition is entirely the answer or is better than anyone else's definition.

I take a lot of Zogby polls and they always ask about religion before they proceed with the rest of the poll. It is one thing they factor in with the rest of your answers, because the government and its hard core supporters have made such a big deal out of religion and "us against them". George Bush was once quoted as saying that no one who didn't share his particular evangelical brand of Christianity could be a true patriot.

Really? I'm a Quaker. I'm patriotic. I just don't support this particular government or the people who adore repression. This government is spying on our meetings. Not just the one that was publicized, but probably many others that haven't been. Would you like government spies at your worship sessions, or to have your church bugged? So you can excuse me if I'm a little ticked here. What happened to my citizenship, my right to believe in God as I choose and to support peace instead of Bush's futile meat grinding war in Iraq. Where is my right to due process, and to define God as I see fit?

The people in this thread are enjoying freedom of speech. As far as I'm concerned they should go for it while they still have it, because all those good folks on the religious right are doing their best to take it away from all of us.

[tanyev]

33. What???? The War on Christmas hasn't managed to obliterate

peoples' faith in God???? Well, there's 11 days left. Fight harder!

[DavidDvorkin]

34. Well, that's depressing

Just when you think America might be making some progress . . .

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. The man in charge of the poll seems particularly dumb

judging from this other article on the poll:

The poll of 1,002 adults was conducted Nov. 17-20 and released Dec. 13.

"In the chicken-and-egg question about whether church attendance is more likely to drive religiosity or vice-versa," Gallup's Albert L. Winseman wrote in an online analysis, "these data suggest that, for many Americans, belief in God is a personal conviction, and attending worship is an expression, rather than the cause, of that belief."
...
Among weekly church attendees, 94 percent are convinced of God's existence. Amazingly, 61 percent of those who "seldom or never attend church" say they are certain God exists.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22273

What 'chicken-and-egg question'? Since they asked adults, then the respondents are free to choose whether they go to church or not. They're not going to waste their time going to church if they don't believe in god, are they? The final 6% almost certainly fall into the "god probably exists" category. If you're trying to work out if religious brainwashing works, then you need to look at children who don't believe in god, but are forced to go to church by their parents, and see if repeated attendance starts them believing in god.

Whoever (Winseman? Michael Foust?) thinks that it's 'amazing' that 61% of those who seldom or never attend church nevertheless are certain that god exists have woeful understanding of beliefs. There are, of course, loads of people who don't think that church services are a vital part of religion, or whose concept of god doesn't match an organised religion, as other people here have noted. For either Gallup's Religion and Social Trends Editor, or a writer for Baptist Press, it's appalling ignorance not to know that.

[VegasWolf]

38. I don't believe in God. God is dead. Friedrich Nietzsche. America is

regressing at an alarming rate. The puritans are trying to reclaim the country. I wonder if this battle will still be fought in the 22nd Century.


:toast:

[fshrink]

40. Do we really need a poll on that?

Just open your eyes a bit and it'll be pretty clear that the US barely falls short of an actual theocracy, with the support of the masses.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. "Exactly 1%..."

Land of the brave.

[killbotfactory]

42. File under: "No Shit, Sherlock"

[gtar100]

43. And if everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you follow?

Belief never makes anything so.

Besides, maybe God doesn't believe in us... you know, the no-self thing.

This "poll" would be funny if it didn't reek of propaganda so much.

[onager]

46. Or expressed another way...

"If millions of people believe a dumb idea, it's STILL a dumb idea!"

Definitely propaganda. George Gallup was, after all, a Fundamentalist himself. And his polls on this subject still seem rigged to comfort the average 'Murican.

For more honest polling on religion...and you're getting this from an atheist, BTW...do a google on The Barna Group. Their founder is also a Fundamentalist Xian (George Barna). But their polls seem honest and they always publish the methodology.

The Barna Group is always giving shit-fits to the Falwells and Robertsons. At the height of "Monica-gate," Barna showed that even self-identified Evangelicals still supported Bill Clinton in roughly the same proportion as the rest of the population (over 60%).

When everyone else was blathering about a "massive return to God" after 9/11, Barna actually followed the trend for more than one news cycle and reported exactly what you would expect--a slight uptick in church attendance for a couple of weeks, quickly followed by a return to the usual attendance.

And Fundies must have LOVED the Barna poll that showed atheists were less likely than Fundamentalists to get divorced...

(Even Barna couldn't resist a rather mean-spirited swipe at that one. He pointed out that atheists are also more likely to "live in sin" without benefit of a blessing from The Invisible Man In The Sky.)

[leesa]

44. They don't believe in God, they are scared to death of God...some faith!

[VegasWolf]

47. That is exactly right! They are so scared of going to Hell that they

can't think straight!

[stepnw1f]

48. Just Not the Righties Version of God

oooops... too bad.

[VegasWolf]

49. A far more defining question would have been what portion of their

income do they give to religion. See if they put their money wher their mouth is! I'll start - 0%.

[superconnected]

52. what does giving money have to do with religion.

Most religious people I know do not attend church and do not want to give money to them.

I give money to animal rescue groups. I consider that more along the line of following my religion then handing it over to a church.

and lets not forget that this poll appears to cover all religions and not just christian ones.


as for this thread - saying things like religious people are dumb etc, -I don't know what I like less, obstinate-extreme-christians that can't handle other poeples beliefs, or obstinate-extreme-athiests that can't handle other peoples beliefs. Both are narrow minded and biggots.

Most athiests I know in person are open minded and can handle people having beliefs, so don't go misquoting my words. I said the obstinate-extreme-who can't handle others beliefs. I know many christians, hindus, athiests etc can handle diversity of belief.

[VegasWolf]

53. Religion is based on money and power. It has always been thus.

I do not see anything in my post that implies I "can't handle diversity of beliefs."

As a scientist, I simply spend little time believing in things which personally make little sense to me. Seems like you are a little defensive here.

You seem to be confusing the concepts of belief with religion. Giving money to animal shelters is a fine thing if that is your personal belief. I do too. But that is not religion.

Religion is a codified, organized, coherent, and agreed upon set of beliefs over a group of people.
And religion has always been used as a control mechanism for every civilization.

I do not call people "dumb" that believe in religion. I call them "sheep." After all, that is the words the religions use themselves. Sheep, flock, sheep herders. I agree with the terminology.

[superconnected]

55. Some organized religions are based on money and power

Most individual religion is not.

I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.

I did not say anything in your post touches on diversity of religion. I commented on this thread.

[VegasWolf]

57. You seem to use religion as a synonym for belief. It is not. "Individual

religion" must simply be one's own beliefs. Again, I said sheep, not dumb people follow religion. I am of course using religion in the organized sense of the word, and not as some personal belief system.

[superconnected]

59. thank you for the clarification of how you use religon.

American Heritage® Dictionary: Definition of religion
NOUN: 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
Additional references

link http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/religion

perhaps you should use the term "organized religion".

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/religion

above is a link from the american herritage thesauras - showing that religion IS a synonmyn for belief.

but why let facts get in your way.

[VegasWolf]

61. I use religion in the common sense. "Organized religion" thus has

flocks. I guess individual religions mean what they mean to the individual.

[superconnected]

56. this is actually kind of wierd

"Religion is a codified, organized, coherent, and agreed upon set of beliefs over a group of people.
And religion has always been used as a control mechanism for every civilization."

You'e a scientist and you can't see that religion takes on many forms. Not all of them are organized etc. Perhaps you want to exercise clarity and specifically say "some organized religions" insteald of declaring all religon to be in that set.

It sounds like you're getting a bit emotional in there, for a scientist.

It also sounds like you're not interested in the religious spectrum but your tiny idea of how you want to see it.

[VegasWolf]

58. So exactly where is the conflict? Other than you want to make

some sort of internal belief system a "religion?" If that is the case, schizophrenics have wide assortment of religions.

You appear to be the emotional one!

[superconnected]

60. ad hominem attack using schizophrenia.

There in is my problem. Athiests are fine. But when they become bigotted - ie insulting people who have religion, they are no different than the extreme religious who can't handle people who don't share their beliefs.

This is all I said.

Perhaps you should question why YOU have a problem with that.

You have now taken the stance of ad-hominemly insulting me for the statement.

[VegasWolf]

62. That wasn't an ad hominem attack. You are very emotional today.

My argument that this concept of yours of a private, personal, internal religion must simply be nothing more than that. It exists only in an individual's mind and has no reality in other than that individual's mind. Try not attacking and just argue the merits of the point. I certainly never called you a schizophrenic. I usually admire your thinking.

[superconnected]

65. gee

Wow.

have a nice day.

[VegasWolf]

67. Okey Dokey! You too!

:)

[regnaD kciN]

64. I'm reminded of Clarence Darrow...

I don't know what I like less, obstinate-extreme-christians that can't handle other poeples beliefs, or obstinate-extreme-athiests that can't handle other peoples beliefs. Both are narrow minded and biggots.

...who, because of his reputation as a freethinker and defender of evolution at the Scopes trial, was asked to address a local Athiest Society. He began his speech by essentially telling the membership that they were every bit as bad as the religious people they opposed. Those people, Darrow said, insist that there is a God and an afterlife, while you insist there isn't any God or afterlife...and neither of you have any proof either way.

[VegasWolf]

68. True! One time in a Philosophy class I argued that agnosticism was

the only valid philosophical stance, given that people who argue with equal certainty that an unprovable does or does not exist, are simply arguing in a vacuum. At that time agnosticism was deemed a lowly fence-sitting position of no real value. And that is true. Arguing that I simply don't know fails to advance or detriment any argument. Nothing is black and white. However, using a probability based logic system instead of simple true, false, and unknown predicates helps. Therefore, under probability based logic, I am an atheist, in that in my reasoning I am 99.99% certain that god does not exist and I have an even far greater certainty that no established religion has any correct definition of a god.

[superconnected]

85. wow, you went to college.

stunning.

[VegasWolf]

87. Wow! and you can spell the word "college!" Cool. nt

[superconnected]

89. well gee after stuff like:

"That wasn't an ad hominem attack. You are very emotional today"

The last sentence is an ad hominem attack. When you attempt to invalidate something someone says by using information outside the argument - Ie. Chris doesn't have a point because it's coming from chris. But hey, why trouble yourself to know the definition of ad hominem. You obviously don't care about facts. Why else would you say:

"You seem to use religion as a synonym for belief. It is not"

When in fact the American Heritage Dictionary definition of religion IS belief, and the Thesauras lists belief first for a synonym for religion.

Having no regard for facts and using empty arguments like ad hominem attacks -"you are emotional", in attempts to invalidate an argument, just led me to be stunned you went to college. Mine required critical thought.

[VegasWolf]

90. Wrong!

You are the one who keeps attacking. Speaking of critical thinking you failed to recognize even the simple reference noun for "that" as in "that was not an ad hominem attack." I was clearly speaking of your erroneous assumption that I called you a schizophrenic. I did not. My remark that you seemed emotional today was a reference to your continued remarks. You seem doubly troubled today.

I use religion in the common sense of the word. As in an organized belief system. Different religions are differentiated by different belief systems. You seem to have this personal, imaginary belief system. Hell, from your writing it is unclear what you believe in. Other than you seem to be religiously fanatical.

Critical thinking, hah. You wouldn't recognize it if it was staring you in the face.

In addition, your belief in invisible sky beings kind of repudiates your supposed "thinking" skills.

[superconnected]

91. I cited that quote because it was adhominem

so was the schizophrenia.

I'm not going to argue with you because you keep reverting to low things like calling people emotional etc. It's been stunning, really.

Nice that you have your own personal definition of words. Gee, bet that really turned out well for you in college.

[VegasWolf]

92. Magna Cum Laude. For your definition, it means that I did really well!

Btw, what are you "superconnected" to? Your church bake sales?

[superconnected]

93. I don't go to church vegaswolf.

I assume when people don't have anything intelligent to say, they start making jabs.

I don't believe you were magna cum anything. It's so easy to say things on internet. But it's not easy to gain integrity after losing it.

[VegasWolf]

94. I am glad you know the term. I am. You are obviously not. You attack

every chance you get, and then denigrate anyone who attacks back. You are a hypocrite, and not a very interesting person to talk with and I will have nothing further to do with you. Buh Bye!

[superconnected]

95. absolutely stunning.

bye.

[expatriot]

50. 94% of Americans vs. 71% of Europeans.

STUTTGART (ANS) -- Seven out ten Europeans believe in God. That is one result of a representative survey conducted on behalf of Reader’s Digest Germany. 8,600 persons in 14 European countries were interviewed November through January. The results are published in the March issue of the magazine.

Poland came out on top with 97 percent of the interviewees saying they believe in God, followed by Portugal (90) and Russia (87). At the bottom of the list are Belgium (58), the Netherlands (51) and the Czech Republic (37).
Another sign that America is in trouble and that the European education system is succeeding.



http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s05020143.htm


The fact that someone believes in God does not necessarily mean that he or she also believes in life after death. 53 percent of all Europeans are convinced that physical death is not the end – 18 percent fewer than those who believe in God.

For 43 percent of all Europeans religion is necessary to be able to distinguish between right and wrong. This conviction is strongest in Poland (86), Russia (78) and Switzerland (54), whereas relatively few people subscribe to this view in the Czech Republic (27), the Netherlands (25) and France (24).

79 percent of the Portuguese are convinced that religion is a positive force in the world. 78 percent of the Poles and 72 percent of the Spaniards agree. Belgians (39), Russians (36) and the Dutch (34) are not so sure.

Even 15 years after re-unification Germany is still a deeply divided country as far as religion is concerned. In the former Communist East 77 percent are convinced that God does not exist compared to 22 percent in the West.

The belief in God does not necessarily mean that Germans regard him as a personal being. For 83 percent of all believers God is present in nature, 75 percent regard him as their creator and 70 percent describe him as an ever-present source in their life.

[regnaD kciN]

66. What's interesting about those figures...

...is that the countries with the highest (Poland) and lowest (Czech Republic) rates of belief were both, until fifteen years ago, Communist and thus officially atheist.

:shrug:

[Zynx]

74. The Communist regimes varied of course from country to country.

Poland's, despite all the talk about it being harsh, was not as bad as East Germany or Czechoslovakia. Also, culturally, the Czech Republic is very different from Poland and I would suspect has never been as religious.

[StellaBlue]

63. I only have one response

:puke:

[progressivebydesign]

69. I've always been in that tiny percent.... in many things.

No God. Our lives are no more pre-ordained than the ant we accidentally stepped on leaving for work today. I find it so poignant that people believe there is a puppet-master up in the sky deciding that some disaster will befall that guy, spare that one, and reward the next. It's soooo... I don't know... soooo quaint.

Sorry.. but when you've worked around severely abused and neglected kids (some that have tried suicide as young as 5), you realize that all of that religion stuff is nonsense. It makes people feel better thinking that we are somehow morally superior to the meat we had for dinner last night.

[VegasWolf]

70. Yes! and hanging onto that concept that the all important "me" cannot

die!

:)

[Strong Atheist]

119. Howdy!

1% also ...:toast:

[Hyernel]

71. I'm pretty sure 20-25% are lying.

At least I hope that America isn't that retarded.

I am part of the 1% that is certain.

[Zynx]

75. I'm retarded because I believe in God?

I love you too.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

76. ?belief in "GOD" makes one a right wingnut Evangelic Fundamentalist ?

retarded?
? Are most of the current inhabitants of world who believe in God (under one name or another) retarded?

The re-tard-id-ity would be in NOT acknowleging the rainbow spectrum of diversity regarding belief systems.

Only "Ree-tards" think that if you believe in God and then you are a Bush suporting Bible Bus riding ignorant red State fool.

As the Sikhs say:If you don't see God IN all, you don't see God AT all-

--and a lot of people here at DU don't see God at all and that's ok--
Just want to let them know that, as shocking as it may seem, people who believe in God aren't always attempting to convert those who don't...
--- I know I speak for many here when I say that the people at DU who DO believe in God ain't necessarily riding the Bible Bus to Sundee Skool, they didn't check their brain at the door, and they didn't pick up their crayons.


In other words, the idea of believing in God isn't "ree-tarded"...

[CAG]

79. Isn't funny how a lot of those that don't believe in a God seem to think

they're so much smarter than the rest of us?? We've seen several references on this thread and countless other threads where atheists (for lack of a better word) just simply call those that believe stupid, retarded, ignorant, etc, etc. However, how many times have you seen us "God-believers" turn it around to these brave atheists calling us names across the internet and call their brain function into question?

How's this, I'll start: Geez, people who don't believe in God are really stupid morons, aren't they??? OK, that makes the score 20,000 insults to what, 14??? Its time us believers engage these genius atheists at their mature game and start calling them names. Who's with me??

[superconnected]

83. first of all, all athiests aren't bigots just like all christians aren't

athiests who who insult anyone who doesn't believe as they do are just as bad as religious people who insult anyone who doesn't believe as they do. Both are narrow minded bigots. Both make blanket statements and refuse to see a wider view.

Feel sorry for the narrow minded athiest bigots posting here. Thank God that there aren't religious ones doing the same thing. They do exist.

And don't answer bigotry with bigotry - ie. telling them they're stupid because they are athiests.

If they are stupid it's because they are bigots.

[PittPoliSci]

73. i think the entire 1% that is certain posts on DU.

i'm one of them! :-)

[Strong Atheist]

120. So am I!

:toast:

[darkism]

77. Here's to my fellow six-percenters!

:toast:

[DrBloodmoney]

110. Amen Brother

[NVMojo]

78. god is ok, it's his believers who scare the crap out of me

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

81. they not all rydin the Byble Bus !-only some of' m-the rest comprise the

majority of the inhabitants of the planet Earth.

What scares ME are those who are in charge of making the rules on this planet-

The greedy bastards allow for the destruction of the entire food chain !!

Not to mention the toxification of the entire Oceans and land alike.

Where will we get oxygen from when the rainforests are leveled?

-who wasn't listening in fifth grade science class?
And how did they get in a position of power--
?

now that's SCARY!!

[currents]

80. Damn, people are F'ing stupid

Ha ha ah I laugh

[superconnected]

84. do you mean the 6 percenters, the 94 percenters

or the bigots who can't handle anyone who doesn't think like they do and call them stupid.

If you mean the bigots who call people stupid when someone doesn't think like them, I agree. They are total imbeciles. Definitely a recipee for narrow-minded opinions.

[DS1]

86. Who the F*CK CARES?

:argh:

[VegasWolf]

88. Exactly! nt

[Castilleja]

100. I know I don't...

I am tired of hearing about the whole damn subject.

[oregonindy]

96. yeah well have them listen to this terri gross interview and then read the

book and you can help wipe the drool off their faces as they realize that the words of the bible the christo-fascists depend on to justify their hate are not the the words from the original greek texts.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156

Fresh Air from WHYY, December 14, 2005 · Scholar Bart Ehrman's new book explores how scribes -- through both omission and intention -- changed the Bible. Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why is the result of years of reading the texts in their original languages.

Ehrman says the modern Bible was shaped by mistakes and intentional alterations that were made by early scribes who copied the texts. In the introduction to Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman writes that when he came to understand this process 30 years ago, it shifted his way of thinking about the Bible. He had been raised as an Evangelical Christian.

[WestMichRad]

97. Second poll finds God's belief in Amerika significantly eroded

n/t

[BiggJawn]

98. So where did they conduct the poll?

Cracker Barrel at 12:30 Sunday afternoon?

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

101. I believe in God

and I'm not the least bit frightened or ashamed to say it loud and proud.

I do NOT believe in Robertson and Falwell. Nor am I impressed with the hypocrisy of Ralph Reed.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

102. are you retarded?---------poster #71 Hyernel seems to think so--------n/t

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

103. Dumb as a stump. Yup, dat's me.

I still believe.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

108. me too !!! haaaa-----and gittin dumber each day !!---hopefully----n/t

[Hekate]

105. Which god/gods/goddess/goddesses? Did the pollsters even bother asking?

Flippin' reminds me of the time the local Reform rabbi and I both wrote pro-choice op-ed pieces about the (at that time) very heated abortion controversy. (Neither knew the other was doing this.)

We both wrote from a spiritual perspective, and to illustrate that religious people could be pro-choice too our newspaper printed a humungous cross in the background, kinda split down the middle to indicate >dilemma<.

Funny thing about that cross, considering the rabbi was identified as a rabbi. And me -- well I don't advertise my Goddess-oriented spirituality to all and sundry, but that cross wasn't appropriate for me either.

I didn't complain or say anything -- after all, both our pieces got printed across almost a full page -- but I certainly noticed and I certainly remember.

It's just that reflexive and unthinking identification of "God" and "religion" as being "Christian God" and "Christian beliefs" can lead to some very misleading assumptions about America's values and spiritual life.

I would like to believe that pollsters would be more careful, but as with the exit polls about "values," politicians and news media can take partial information and run like hell with it. All those folks "voting their values" included a lot of Democrats, and we know it because we voted ours. But as far as I can tell, the pollsters used a single word rather than identifying some of the many competing values that were in play during the campaign season.

Do you believe in God? Of course I do, Mr Pollster, only I identify the divine as feminine, a Goddess, well, more like three of them -- and my Hindu friend a block over seems to believe in quite a few more.

Incomplete questions -- incomplete answers.

Hekate

[Strawman]

107. It's called social desirability bias

It's understood in this country that to question the existence of God is an invitation to be abused by religious zealots.

[No Exit]

109. God knows how to lead.

He knows to delegate matters (especially the tough stuff) to underlings. That way, he, as the Big Boss, always comes off looking good and benevolent.

"George, I've placed you there to make those people realize just how quickly their good thing of a country can be pulled out from under them. And, George... you're doin' a heckuva job!"

[papau]

112. If 93% of humans believe in God, and rational=human, other 7% irrational?

Do the other 7% need our help, as in re-education classes - or are we called upon to give pity and understanding to those of lower IQ that can never be rational??

:-)

Indeed if man is a rational being and 93% believe in God, then does it not follow that it is rational to believe in God?
==========================================================

Now throw down those ropes before you find that tree to hang me on - I am just joking and am not about to try to argue that any belief system (or non-system) makes one a better person than another.

But this is any interesting survey - the highest numbers for belivers in God that I have ever heard.

Indeed it's EU number is 5 to 7 points higher than other surveys of the last 12 months.

I wonder if we've had some new converts - or if the polling question wording may have slanted the response a bit.

In any case .... very interesting!

:toast:

:-)

[VegasWolf]

113. Numbers! Okay! Only 2% of the population are wealthy. Does that

make us less human==rational? Also less than 1 in a 100 have a graduate degree.

:evilgrin:

[papau]

114. :-) - I didn't say it was that logical! - but there is a bit of logic in

it.

The term "rational", despite its use on DU to mean I am correct and you are not, is just that human mental processes of using reason and intellect while not using emotion that we use to connect ideas as consciously, coherently and purposively as possible. Given human fallibility, there is no implication as to the correctness or incorrectness of the reasoning.

But the key word is "human" - as in human mental process. To be rational is to use the human mental process. To use the the human mental process is to at least be human-like.

If 93% of the results when using the human mental process lead to God and most folks are rational, then does it not follow that the rational thought is to believe in God? And of course those brains that can not reach the standard conclusion are "irrational."

Of course the alternatives are (1)that most folks are irrational, so one need only teach the use of reason and all would become atheist, and/or (2) folks are irrational about God only and not using reason.

But I do like the idea that the really rational people believe in God because the vast majority of Human thinking leads to God.

I know it resolves nothing in the debate - but I like the debating point! :-)




:evilgrin:

[VegasWolf]

116. Okay, why do you believe that large numbers of people imply any

sort of "correct" rationalization? Given that wealthy, highly educated, or otherwise desirable traits that many Americans would love to possess are only held by a tiny fragment of the population, then how do you reach that conclusion?

I would assert that astute rationalization is a function of the ability to intellectualize well.

Even using a problematic statistic such as IQ, it is obvious that 50% of the people in this country are smarter (according to their IQ's) than the another 50%. In the US 1 in 4 is above 111,
1 in 10 above 120, 1 in 20 above 125, etc. Granted that IQ testing is flawed, it is still inarguable that only small numbers of people reach the "genius" level.

If only a small number of individuals are the optimum thinkers of our species, then why would a sample composed of averages and less than averages be the "rational choice?"

I assume that the 7% are using "human mental processes", else what are they using, but I would assert that they are simply using them more aggressively than the 93 per centers.

The discussion is good fun anyway, I'm just tossing in my 2 cents!

:toast:
:)

[papau]

117. night :-)

If you are going to confuse the issue with facts

I'll have to go to bed.

But I still like the simple -

1. Humans define rational

2. 93% of Humans believe in God

3. Therefore, Believing in God is rational.

Notice that while it really is only an assertion, it is as solid as asserting that the optimum thinkers of our species are the 7%!

Like I think we both agree - it proves nothing. I get tired of hearing "My side is more rational than your side", but I guess everyone needs to believe they are both special and correct - or at least more correct than the other person.

In any case - it's been fun - good night

:toast:

:-)

[VegasWolf]

122. Night! Sleep well!

:toast:
:)

[natrat]

123. there is no God-end of story

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. How dare they!

Harumph!