Democrats Provided Edge on Detainee Vote

[cal04]

Democrats who had voted previously to prohibit abusive treatment of detainees in American custody provided the margin of victory on Thursday for a Republican-backed measure that would deny prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, the right to challenge their detention in federal courts. Four of the five Democrats who supported the provision to strip detainees at Guantánamo of the legal tool the Supreme Court gave them to appeal their incarcerations said on Friday that they drew the line at allowing the prisoners unfettered access to United States courts to challenge the underlying rationale for their detention. The Senate approved the measure, an amendment to a military budget bill, 49 to 42.

"A foreign national who is captured and determined to be an enemy combatant in the world war on terrorism has no more right to a habeas corpus appeal to our courts than did a captured soldier of the Axis powers during World War II," Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut, said in a statement. Senator Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, said in a telephone interview that retired soldiers told him at a Veterans Day lunch in Fargo on Friday that they supported Senator John McCain's proposed ban on cruel and degrading treatment of prisoners but opposed giving detainees at Guantánamo Bay broader leeway to United States courts. "I don't think giving enemy combatants access to the federal court system is a precedent we want to set," Mr. Conrad said.

Spokesmen for two other Senate Democrats who voted for the measure, Mary L. Landrieu of Louisiana and Ben Nelson of Nebraska, made similar statements. "He thinks they should stay in the military tribunal system, and if that system is broken, we should fix it, not move them out of it," said David DiMartino, a spokesman for Senator Nelson. Senate Democrats led by Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico are gearing up over the weekend to launch a counteroffensive early next week to strike or at least soften the part of Mr. Graham's measure that bars Guantánamo prisoners from challenging their incarceration by petitioning in civilian court for a writ of habeas corpus. Mr. McCain issued a statement Friday explaining his vote in support of Mr. Graham's amendment as a way to rid federal courts of petitions from prisoners on everything from the delivery of mail to the type of food allowed. But he also hinted that he might support a compromise next week.

"Based on ongoing discussions, it is entirely possible that the current version of the amendment will be modified to address concerns about lawful treatment and the scope of independent appeals," Mr. McCain said. Josh Kardon, chief of staff to Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, the fifth Democrat to vote for Mr. Graham's measure, suggested that Mr. Wyden was also looking for a compromise to make the Guantánamo tribunal process more accountable to the Senate and "ensure the fair and humane treatment of detainees."

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/dems-detainees.html

[Ms. Clio]

1. Lieberman--such a complete asshole

He never fails to live down to my lowest expectations of him. He conveniently leaves out the fact that those Axis soldiers were treated as POWs under the Geneva Conventions--not degraded, not tortured, not murdered.

[Hardrada]

3. He has not been too visible lately

since he is trying to figure out how to save the PNAC agenda from the GOP bunglers.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Lieberman belongs with the Likud pro-Netanyahu rabble

Holy Joe: who determines that a person is an enemy combatant? Why, Bush, of course.

Bush kissed Holy Joe on his cheeks, and now Holy Joe is kissing Bush's imperial ass!

[Boo Boo]

15. Lieberman *is* Likud pro-Netanyahu rabble. /nt

[Boo Boo]

14. And returned to their country of origin when the war was over.

There was no doubt about who they were, or why they had been captured. They didn't need habeas corpus; they knew exactly what their disposition was. Joe is either being disingenuous, or he's a real fuckin' moron, because WWII and GWOT are not analogous.

God, I hate that idiot.

[Kagemusha]

2. They just don't realize this isn't ruling on *foreign* combattants

it's ruling on *all* enemy combattants, including Americans if the President decides to declare them such. So it will have the effect of potentially denying Americans rights they have regarding their treatment in prisons in their own country and to challenge their very incarseration itself.

[Sgent]

4. I am so FUCKING PISSED

Lieberman, blow me.

Did that bill also say that all of those prisoners will be treated as POW's under the Geneva convention? No? Then the comparison is not applicable.

Even those POW's knew when they would be released -- when the war was over. These people could grow old and die in Gitmo and would never have the ability to appeal their detention? In what world is that just?

[shanti]

26. LIEberman - how does that asshole keep getting elected??????

:grr: :mad:

[ECH1969]

6. Guantanamo detainees lose right to appeal

Some Democrats cross over to help the bill pass 49-42

WASHINGTON - Democratic senators who had voted previously to prohibit abusive treatment of detainees in U.S. custody provided the margin of victory on Thursday for a Republican-backed measure that would deny prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the right to challenge their detention in federal courts.

Four of the five Democrats who supported the provision to strip detainees at Guantanamo of the legal tool the Supreme Court gave them to appeal their incarcerations said Friday that they drew the line at allowing the prisoners unfettered access to U.S. courts to challenge the underlying rationale for their detention.

"A foreign national who is captured and determined to be an enemy combatant in the world war on terrorism has no more right to a habeas corpus appeal to our courts than did a captured soldier of the Axis powers during World War II," Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., said in a statement.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3455987

[wtmusic]

7. He does have rights under the Geneva Convention Joe

which we are ignoring. Fucking Joe Lieberman. What a piece of shit. :grr:

[Kagemusha]

8. As cited in another thread on the same topic...

Soldiers of Axis powers captured during WWII were covered under the Geneva Convention and had a guarantee of being treated humanely. They had clear rights and clear methods of communication to ensure those rights were respected.

And there's literally nothing stopping the US from designating Americans as enemy combattants, shipping them to Guantanamo and then saying, CONGRESS stripped you of your habeas corpus rights. That satisfies all Supreme Court legal standards. Read it and weep.

And weep they shall.

[wtmusic]

9. Under the War Crimes Act of 1996 violations of GC

are punishable by imprisonment and/or death.

That is something that SHOULD be stopping this criminal administration. Maybe one day it will.

[rfkrfk]

12. these people are 'partisans', not soldiers,

these people are 'partisans / guerillas / non-uniformed fighters',
or at least that is what they want to appear to be,
so the GC does not apply

[Red_Viking]

16. That is incorrect

If you haven't already, go the the UN website and read the whole Convention.

Even if these men aren't POWs in the traditional sense, the US is still bound by obligations to treat them humanely. According to Human Rights Watch:

<snip>
"The United States is a party to the Geneva Conventions, the laws governing the treatment of persons captured during armed conflict. Every captured fighter is entitled to humane treatment, understood at a minimum to include basic shelter, clothing, food and medical attention. In addition, no detainee – even if suspected of war crimes such as the murder of civilians – may be subjected to torture, corporal punishment, or humiliating or degrading treatment. If captured fighters are tried for crimes, the trials must satisfy certain basic fair trial guarantees."
<snip>

You can check out the whole article at http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/01/us011102.htm

In addition, these people are covered by the US Constitution, believe it or not, that allows for a speedy trial, and the right to face your accusers in a court of law. There is no language in the Constitution limiting its rights to US citizens only.

Keep in mind when the US ratifies a treaty or issues an executive order those become the supreme law of the land, on the same level as the constitution and laws passed by Congress.

This whole thing stinks. I'm not saying the guys at Gitmo are innocent, but if they've done something, at least give them a trial. We are not in the habit of letting people rot in jail.

Peace,

RV

[rfkrfk]

19. the GC does not apply to civilian-illegal-fighters

about treaties being 'supreme law of the land',
that is flowerly 18th-C language for, federal law
is above state law,,, the constitution, or domestic law,
cannot be changed by treaty, because the authority of the
House of Representatives cannot be userped by the Senate

[Ms. Clio]

20. What part of "Every captured fighter is entitled to humane treatment"

do you fail to understand?

[rfkrfk]

30. where did HRW get that?

Partisans have no standing in the Geneva Convention.
Captured soldiers, are 'protected persons',
likewise captured 'not participating in hostilities' civilians.

Civilians who participate in hostilities, no protection.

Does HWR mean the 'UN Universl Declaration of Human Rights?
if so, they should state that, and not put a mention
of the GC in a nearby sentence.

What is the deal?

[Porcupine]

10. The US is now a pariah state. Ain't we proud now....

Our pRezident is asked repeated questions about the torturing of prisoners and it's clear that NOBODY believes his answers. US citizens are being hunted in ever larger chunks of the planet daily.

I hate what our nation has become.

[wellst0nev0ter]

11. Oh, So They Are Now POWs Joementum?

Then they are long overdue to be tried and punished accordingly.

[depakid]

13. This is why the Dems are going to keep losing

Over and over.

Headlines like these.

This is why the party is irrelevant in national politics.

And before anyone says that Wyden's not one of the usual suspects- he's just like so many others who bolt without any consequences here and there whenever their whims suit them. A former grey panther leader who sold out seniors to help provide the margin for the Republican Medicare scam. A true man of integrity.

If the Dems can't even hold togther at this point- have a little discipline or stand up for the most basic of principles- with all that's going on- I actually don't think they deserve to be a majority party.

And a LOT of people I know don't think so, either.

No wonder Dean can't raise any money for the national party- who's going to give waste any money on the DNC when this is what they see all of the time?

Sooner Dean gets out of that no-win position, and back on the campaign trail- the better off all of us will be.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

17. Flip flop, flip flop

Our party is losing edge because we have many fake democrats. I don't trust leibermen, didn't trust mccain. I only trusted 3 out of the many running candidates in 2004, and I don't trust very many of our 'democratic' senators.

We need new blood. We need a system that will allow us to just expel the bad senators who AREN'T benefitting us from our party (even if not from their position as that state's governor/senator whatever).

This is just total BS. Democrats aren't selling out democrats, but conservatives in liberal's clothing. There are DUers who constantly mock wolves -- but wolves are far better and more loyal than the bastards who we expect to protect us, and sell out to the republicans.

[JoFerret]

18. Shameful / evil for anyone, outrageous for Democrats

disgraceful behavior.

[Solly Mack]

21. America is a sick, sick country

Spin it any way you like - America is sick.

[meganmonkey]

22. Yep

:(

[Solly Mack]

23. I feel so dirty . I'm suffocating from the weight of the shame

Not because I'm American, but because I'm a human - Why do we do these things to each other? :(

[shanti]

27. this is no surprise

especially with regard to racism.

[upi402]

24. DINOs? -Lieberman Landrieu Conrad Nelson

Mary L. Landrieu of Louisiana, Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut, Senator Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota

DINOs?... not even.

[Miss Chybil]

25. Why are you all just dogging Lieberman?

There were four other traitors standing right beside him.

[PATRICK]

31. Further indication

that a significant segment of the elected Dem leadership is completely behind the Bush 8-ball even now. This is thickheadedness if nothing else and is even more serious than this single misguided and scandalous vote.

If you set ideology and even the issue here aside it is an awful indictment of the incompetence of a big slice of our top elected leaders, something we sadly have come to expect and which seems utterly absent from any learning curve not infected by GOP talking points.

I wonder if those people even KNOW they must get together with everyone and seriously knock heads together to get with the actual program, the actual facts of what is going on. The "bi-partisans" seemed locked somewhere in Fortress Fantasyland, a methodology they can't understand why doesn't work for them like the extremist nutcases. Well, one reason it doesn't work is that bi-partisanship is NOW a longstanding fatal lie and a damned clear one at that when you sell another piece of America to the fascists.

[jamesinca]

28. I think they need to be declared a POW then

If they are:
"A foreign national who is captured and determined to be an enemy combatant in the world war on terrorism has no more right to a habeas corpus appeal to our courts than did a captured soldier of the Axis powers during World War II," Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut,

Senator Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, said in a telephone interview that retired soldiers told him at a Veterans Day lunch in Fargo on Friday that they supported Senator John McCain's proposed ban on cruel and degrading treatment of prisoners but opposed giving detainees at Guantánamo Bay broader leeway to United States courts. "I don't think giving enemy combatants access to the federal court system is a precedent we want to set,"

Screw you Joe and Kent!!!!

If these people are to be tried in the military tribunal system then call them POW's and afford them the Geneva Conventions. If they are not POW's then put them into the court system. It is people like these two that allow this administration to play around with words to justify torture and the denial of rights and privileges to people. Force this administration to declare what these people are, not some vague term that nobody knows how to classify.

In summary, Joe and Kent are a couple of maggots and they are what is wrong with the Democratic party.

[cantstandbush]

29. Five that need to be voted out of office. They are DINOs and we don't

need them. We have to get tough like the opposition. They are either with us or against us! The issues surrounding war and the conduct of our wars trumps everthing else in my opinion because war affects so many other events in our life and it reveals the true character and soul of those involved.