Is Jimmy Massey telling the truth about Iraq? (Marine atrocities made up?)

[Barrett808]

Is Jimmy Massey telling the truth about Iraq?
By Ron Harris
POST-DISPATCH WASHINGTON BUREAU
11/05/2005

For more than a year, former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey has been telling anybody who will listen about the atrocities that he and other Marines committed in Iraq.

In scores of newspaper, magazine and broadcast stories, at a Canadian immigration hearing and in numerous speeches across the country, Massey has told how he and other Marines recklessly, sometimes intentionally, killed dozens of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Among his claims:

Marines fired on and killed peaceful Iraqi protesters.

Americans shot a 4-year-old Iraqi girl in the head.

A tractor-trailer was filled with the bodies of civilian men, women and children killed by American artillery.

Massey's claims have gained him celebrity. Last month, Massey's book, "Kill, Kill, Kill," was released in France. His allegations have been reported in nationwide publications such as Vanity Fair and USA Today, as well as numerous broadcast reports. Earlier this year, he joined the anti-war bus tour of Cindy Sheehan, and he's spoken at Cornell and Syracuse universities, among others.

News organizations worldwide published or broadcast Massey's claims without any corroboration and in most cases without investigation. Outside of the Marines, almost no one has seriously questioned whether Massey, a 12-year veteran who was honorably discharged, was telling the truth.

He wasn't.

(more)

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/51DC19D72A063D2F862570B00067A5B7?OpenDocument

[Southsideirish]

1. Surprise! Surprise! "Fellow Marines" disavow his comments!!

[MADem]

7. This guy sounds like he needs some SERIOUS medical help

Perhaps he is suffering from PTSD, or perhaps he had a pre-existing condition, but this guy is a lying mutha, and this kind of horseshit gives people reason to disavow GENUINE reports. This guy is a lying bullshit artist, like the bozos who run around with a knife in their teeth claiming to be SEALS or DELTA FORCE, and he needs to apologize to those who were tainted by his false allegations:

Each of his claims is either demonstrably false or exaggerated - according to his fellow Marines, Massey's own admissions, and the five journalists who were embedded with Massey's unit, including a reporter and photographer from the
Post-Dispatch and reporters from The Associated Press and The Wall Street Journal.

He's coming across as a bullshitter with issues:

From the beginning, Massey misled reporters.
In early interviews, he told how he had lost his job at a furniture store because of his anti-war activities. But when asked about the incident in an interview Oct. 19 with the Post-Dispatch, Massey said he had quit his job but
never had felt pressure to leave.

"I left on good terms," he said.

He also backtracked from allegations he made in a May 2004 radio interview and elsewhere that he had seen a tractor-trailer filled with the bodies of Iraqi civilians when Marines entered an Iraqi military prison outside Baghdad. He said the Iraqis had been killed by American artillery.

He told listeners that the scene was so bad "that the plasma from the body and skin was decomposing and literally oozing out of the crevices of the tractor-trailer bed."

He repeated the story in the Post-Dispatch interview. But when told that the newspaper's photographs and eyewitness reports had identified the trailer contents as all men, mostly in uniform, Massey admitted that he had never seen the bodies....

I HATE IT when jerks do this shit--it only hands a talking point to the WAR IS GOOD crowd.



Definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[tx_dem41]

9. I agree with you. If people would read the story, they will find...

that its obvious that this guy can't keep very basic facts straight. I tend to believe that he is lying or, at best, exaggerating.

[MADem]

12. I'd love to see the RE code on his discharge certificate

My guess is he was found psychologically wanting. They don't blame the servicemember when they go off the page....and this guy is several slices shy of a full loaf.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. So, what are your medical credentials that allow you to make....

...such statements based on a newspaper article?

[MADem]

52. An enormous amount of experience dealing with discharges of this

and other characterizations. It ain't medical, it's paperwork.

And on edit, it turns out I was right: http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/05_04/05_26_04/fr_massey.html

Former Marine Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was honorably discharged from the Corps in December 2003 after 12 years of active duty. Diagnosed with depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, he came home to live in Waynesville. His military tours included training infantry soldiers at boot camp in Parris Island, S.C., acting as a Marine recruiter in Waynesville and Sylva, and participating in the invasion of Baghdad during April and May of 2003.


And this explains A LOT. He was a TRAINER, not a warrier, and a RECRUITER--a paper pusher, a salesman. His time in the sandbox was his first encounter with the scary shit that is war. He was there for TWO SCANT MONTHS. He saw VERY LITTLE of what we see nowadays.

Also, he was OUT OF THE SERVICE before the insurgency EVEN TOOK HOLD. He hasn't seen what the kids over there since he came back, in MAY '03, have seen. It is a totally different environment now, not the relative cakewalk in the earlier days of the conflict. He wasn't dealing with IEDs and RPGs on a daily basis--he was dealing with looters and uncertainty...

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Columbia]

88. I was there then

As you well know.

[lumpy]

81. He spent considerable time

at checkpoints where many civilians were killed, as we all know.

[Jara sang]

17. oh yeah, you're so right. I'm sure evry American soldier in Iraq

is abiding by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. :eyes: Yeah, let's just give these killbots a pass.

[tx_dem41]

18. You must be responding to another post, since I never addressed..

anyone lying but Massey. Or maybe you are constructing a strawman to help a weak argument.

If you cannot condemn Massey's lying, then ethically you are in no position to condemn the Administration's lying.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. The lying of the Busch Junta is well-documented....

...the attack on Massey appears to be yet another attempt to discredit someone that is trying to tell us the truth about what's going on in Iraq. What Massey is telling us is very similar to well-documented stories, like My Lai, that came out of Vietnam.

Sounds like you're condemning Massey based on the contents of yet another Junta-sponsored hit-piece.

Do you also believe that Kerry was lying about his experiences in Vietnam?

[tx_dem41]

36. No....Kerry's actions were supported by eyewitness accounts.

I never doubted them.

In the case of Massey, the problem is that his eyewitness accounts keep changing...on very major points.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Got the name of any of the other alleged eyewitnesses?

[tx_dem41]

49. Re-read my post.

It his accounts and his accounts only that hang HIM. I am not questioning anything but HIS accounts.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. No, you're questioning his original story because the writer chose to...

...ATTRIBUTE certain quotes to Massey.

How many times have we seen that tactic used in the past to discredit whistle-blowers?

But that's okay...you go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe.

[Jara sang]

31. How are you so certain that Massey is lying? n/t

[tx_dem41]

33. Did you read the whole story?

The quotes are easy to verify. They're on the record.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Got any names?

[tx_dem41]

41. Yes....Massey.

That's all you need. He's hung himself with his own words.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Riiigghhhttt. Whatever you say. LOL.

[MADem]

53. You need to read the article--Massey himself admitted he LIED.

And then, there was this guy--after covering wars all over hell for decades, he is suddenly "bought off?" Come on:

Ron Haviv, an independent photographer embedded with the unit, said he never saw any protesters or demonstrators, with or without signs.

"Basically, the only people who were on the streets in the first week were there to loot," said Haviv, who has covered conflicts across the globe, including the first Gulf War, Haiti, Yugoslavia and Russia....

And there's more:

But none of the five journalists who covered the battalion said they saw reckless or indiscriminate shooting of civilians by Marines, as Massey has claimed. Nor did any of the Marines or Navy corpsmen who served with Massey and were interviewed for this story.

One of the checkpoint shootings is apparently the basis for one of most poignant recollections claimed by Massey in numerous speeches and interviews: The shooting of a 4-year-old girl in the head....But in the interview with the Post-Dispatch, Massey admitted that he never had seen the girl...."My platoon was ordered to another area before the victims were removed from the car. The other Marines told me that a 4-year-old girl had killed."

Girls unharmed

No 4-year-old died in the incident or was even wounded, according to witnesses including a Post-Dispatch photographer at the scene who filed photos of the incident that were published in the newspaper.

[brentspeak]

59. It's no use, MAdam

Some of the people on this thread are the same ones who think Elvis assasinated JFK. There's no getting through to them.

[MADem]

60. I know--but hey, reread the whole thread, I found out some interesting

info about this "warrior," that I posted upthread--they shipped his ass back QUICK--the sumbitch didn't even make it to the statue toppling! The guy has less than two months in the sandbox, and suddenly he's John Fucking Wayne with a knife in his teeth. Rambo Jimmy!!!

I shouldn't get irritated, because this guy is mentally disturbed, but dramaticos like this just PISS ME OFF. They do NOT help the antiwar effort, all they do is make the kids who really do have concerns, who have REALLY seen some shit, who really have something to say, reluctant to speak out, for fear that they will be associated with a guy who wimped out on the high-speed run to Baghdad, before there was any significant resistance at all.

Sheesh!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. And there are some in this thread who are here primarily for...

...deliberately insulting other posters for refusing to take ANY of the U. S. media at face value.

Why are you, and others, in this thread so eager to believe the Post-Dispatch?

Is it because they mentioned certain sources who they failed to name?

Haven't we all been through this before?

When are you, and the others in this thread sharing your POV, going to learn?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. And the Post-Dispatch is completely reliable? Right. And you....

...believe the Post-Dispatch for what reason?

[Psephos]

101. How reliable is MediaLiesDaily?

Seriously.

How do I know you're not a freeper troll? Or suffering from some of the same problems as Massey?

I don't. I've never even been in the same room as you. Therefore, using your logic, I cannot trust you. Psychologically, you appear to have a need to sell your point of view, usually through repetition and also through insulting putdowns of people who don't agree with you. That also erodes your trustworthiness.

It's also no help that every post of yours I've ever read - and you seem to post a lot - expresses one eternally unchanging point of view. Your ideology is as unvarying as that of any other fundamentalist's (whether religious or political), and I don't trust fundies, because their "truth" blinds them to anyone else's. And even if you are right, your approach scares people away for the same reason Jehovah's Witnesses scare people away: because they are slaves to a belief, and they think they have to cram that belief down other people's throats. Which is another way of saying that they fundamentally do not respect the right of other people to look at evidence and reach a different conclusion. Does it ever strike you as a bit strange that you are always right, MediaLiesDaily?

These are my opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

[MADem]

124. They endorsed Kerry in 04, for starters

Ron Harris has covered opposition to the war, in addition to being an embed, also.

See post 119, and this link for a list of the endorsements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004

[politick]

133. Why Is It So Hard

to admit that he may be lying about this? We can't just believe anything that someone on "our side" says, just because it goes along with our views. Isn't that exactly what the sheeple on the "other side" do all the time? Everyone loses when we hold up an untruth. I'm sure there are other, more coroberated examples out there.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Why am I not suprised by your response. Shoot the messenger, right?

[tx_dem41]

28. When the messenger is lying....

then it hurts the message...right?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. In your opinion, the messenger is lying...sounds like you're...

...chugging the Kool-Aid.

[tx_dem41]

39. Nope...just using my brain.

The quotes are easy to verify.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Start verifying, and let us know how it turns out.

[tx_dem41]

51. Lexis-Nexis is your friend.

The only one drinking Kool-Aid around here is you. If you see two quotes from the SAME person that contradict each other on major points, that is called lying. Yet, you deny it. Its too bad that you feel your case is so weak you have to defend lying.

I have more faith in the anti-war case and am willing to condemn anyone that harms it. Why you embrace it....I have no idea.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. Fork over the names. If not, that will just continue to confirm..

...what I've felt about your posts for quite a while.

Yes, I see two quotes that appear to contradict each other...but I also see that Massey is someone that the NeoCons would want to silence by any means possible. If they can discredit him, that's all they have to do.

Did they not use a similar tactic against much higher profile targets like McCain and Kerry?

How's that Kool-Aid now?

[Liberal Dose]

132. Maybe he's the Iraq-era Ted Sample. n/t

[lumpy]

27. Have to assume you have read

more about this other than this one article ?

[MADem]

50. I've read this article in half a dozen papers

Look, the military couldn't hide Abu Gharaib, and there weren't FIVE journalists EMBEDDED with that unit. Not ONE of his fellow servicemembers has stood beside him and said "Yep, that is how it went down." He has admitted to lying about most of his claims.

He is one sick puppy, an attention-seeker.

I mean, PLEASE--it is an honorable thing to oppose this war, but backing this fruit loop is NOT the way to do it. The guy isn't just off the page, he is nowhere near the tome.

Believe me, there are plenty of kids coming home who have seen some shit, who oppose this conflict, and would love to speak out, only they want to make sure they get their artificial limb, their PTSD treatment, their medical retirement, first. I've talked to some of them at Walter Reed--it ain't all rosy, whoopsie do, wave the flag, but it is a LONG ROAD coming home, the loyalty to your battle buddies is utmost in your mind, more so if you are physically or mentally damaged. And the guilt that you survived when others didn't can be over-fucking-WHELMING.

VVAW did not take off immediately, it took time, too. When it DID take off, it hit like a bomb.

But hey, I don't tell people what to do. My advice is friendly; avoid this whackjob like the plague. He does not help the antiwar cause.

[JoZbean]

91. What article?

"I've read this article in half a dozen papers"

The ones who recount his story or ones that say he's lying?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. None of his alleged detractors seem to have a name. Hmmmm.

[MADem]

54. Yes they do, try reading the ARTICLE. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. Name them.

[MADem]

115. If you cannot pick the names out, I cannot help you.

Look, you are determined to support this kid, and you have every right to your poorly-thought out opinion.

As I have every right to speak from my own experience, and call it as I see it.

When you've had sand in your boots, get back to me, and we can compare notes.

[hughee99]

141. How about Jimmy Massey!

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/05_04/05_26_04/fr_massey.html

"There were four people in the car, and the vehicle came to a stop about 50 meters in front of my Humvee. Somehow the driver managed to escape the bullets, to this day I don’t know how, whether Allah, or Buddah or God was looking after him. We went up and started pulling bodies out, they were shot up pretty bad, still alive but expiring pretty fast.

The one gentleman who survived came out, wailing and flailing his arms, sitting on the curb covering his face and crying. He got up, by that time the corpsmen was there doing CPR, and he looked up at me. “Why did you kill my brother? He did not do anything to you.”

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/05/289126.shtml

The next day the platoon guarded a checkpoint at Baghdad Stadium. "A red Kia Spectra sped toward us at about 45mph. We fired a warning volley above it but the car kept coming. Then we aimed at the car and fired with full force. The Kia came to a stop right in front of me, three of the four men shot dead, the fourth wounded and covered in blood. We called the medics, but he died before they arrived. That day we killed three more civilians in the same circumstances. I talked to my captain afterwards and told him: 'It's a bad day.' He said: 'No, it's a good day.'"

[mirandapriestly]

2. This line gave me a good laugh.

"The Marine Corps investigated Massey's claims and said they were "unsubstantiated"

[WhiteTara]

3. It is good that he is out of the country

I am sure that he would be suicided here in the states.

[lumpy]

24. He has had death threats.

Of course.

[joeunderdog]

130. How 'bout the deaths of those holding the truth about Jessica Lynch?

And then the BBC aired the infamous documentary, essentially labeling the Pentagon's version of events as a work of fiction. I trust the BBC over the Pentagon.

Sure enough, Pfc Lynch has selective amnesia and cannot remember the events of her capture and rescue, though that hasn't stopped her from a million dollar book deal with the NY Times most recent plagiarist du jour, Rick Bragg.

When the Department of Defense insisted on keeping up their official version of the rescue, I knew that inevitably some of Lynch's rescuers would be hushed. After all, here is a woman who endured a few broken limbs from a vehicle accident and is rewarded with a million bucks, while her rescuers continue to live without toilets and running water in a Depleted Uranium wasteland. Her Bronze Star has outraged many veterans. At some point even the threat of an untimely demise will not keep some disgruntled military folks from talking.

Eerily enough, four of Pfc. Lynch's rescuers and colleagues have met an early demise.


http://www.propagandamatrix.com/291003lynchrescuers.html

[WhiteTara]

134. of course

[Zodiak]

4. Might as well don the tinfoil

I never heard of him before, but does anyone supose that Massey is an agent provocatuer (you know, say what the anti-war crowd wants to hear and then renig to make his supporters look like fools)?

His claims are either substantiated or not. If he has changed his story a few times, he does not seem credible, but how can I possibly know from this piece? The article is written with a distinct anti-Massey, pro-Bush flavor. I don't care about fair; I want objective. If the only ones disputing the stories are active duty marines or the pentagon, then I say we need a third source (and NOT corporate embedded reporters). Otherwise it is all hearsay and I suggest we should move on.

What we have evidence of is damning enough. Like firing at protestors...whether Massey said it happened or not, there is documented evidence that yes, th US did this in Iraq. As far as the 6-year old child goes...we will never know without pictures (which I would not want to see, myself).

[madeline_con]

23. Excellent points all...

and I couldn't have expressed my own feelings, which parallel yours, better!

[lumpy]

26. There are other sources

Massey has been telling his story around the world, been interviewed and writing re. his experiences. Go to Yahoo, type his name and click.

[lumpy]

38. Agent provocateur?

uh.....

[Catt03]

5. Well ...hell Post Dispatch

just sue to release the pictures. You know the ones that are so disgusting that even elected officials were repulsed.

Let us make up our own minds. Release the pictures.

[shance]

6. Blame the truth tellers. Continue the delusion and lies so people

can continue believing the delusion and lies, and continue to live in their superior, racist hallucination that all is well, that we are 'bringing Democracy' to other nations.

[MADem]

8. Come on, this guy is NOT a truth teller, he is a bullshit artist!!!

And people who stay behind him, with compelling evidence to the contrary, cause the REAL reports, like the ones that came out of Abu Gharaib, to be tossed into this same 'horseshit' category.

There ARE dreadful things happening over there, but this idiot didn't see or participate in any of it. He's a KOOK. He needs medical help. And then he needs to apologize to those poor bastards whose names were maligned by his attention-seeking behavior.

[lumpy]

34. On what do you base your

conclusions that he is an idiot/KOOK that didn't participate 'in any of it'? He was in Iraq and participated in the invasion. He has had medical help because of the things he witnessed and perhaps participated in. Why do you malign the man? Whether he is truthful or not? There have been many many reports/videos/pictures of 'accidental' killings. 12 Year Marine vet who has seen action right in the middle of the fight. Fah!

[MADem]

56. OK, now stop putting words in my mouth--that is not what I said at all

I have no doubt he was there, I have no doubt his unit saw some shit, but I believe he is a bullshit artist and an attention seeker. Also, since the military is not going after him, they probably know that he is nuts.

And see my posts elsewhere in this thread WRT Ron Haviv--HE is a CREDIBLE source.

[lumpy]

71. Why would the military

'go after him' ?

[MADem]

111. I do not think they did--he hung himself with his own changing stories,

exaggerations, and falsehoods. The military knows what his problem is, he has mental issues and is a prime prevaricator--they have other fish to fry, frankly; like how to get the hell out of Iraq ASAP and prevent the Monkey from telling them to invade Iran or Syria.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Got the names of Massey's accusers?

[MADem]

55. Better yet, how about a PICTURE of one of them?

This is Ron Haviv. He has covered wars from Bosnia to Afghanistan, and everywhere in between. He is a respected, award winning war photographer, and I rather doubt he would give it all up to support the Monkey's version of war. He was one of the FIRST photojournos to document the Serbian atrocities:
http://www.bloodandhoney.com/


Another link for you: http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0208/rh_intro.htm

Oh, and a bit more info about the guy: http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2001/feb/010222.haviv.html

Ron Haviv has spent a career photographing the way conflict devastates the lives of soldiers and civilians. Haviv has traveled the world, documenting everything from Colombia's drug wars to Kurds fleeing Iraq. His award-winning photographs have appeared in numerous international newspapers and magazines.

In 1991, Haviv headed to the Balkans. He was 27 and didn't know much about the region. Soon after he arrived, Haviv photographed a Serbian soldier kicking the head of a dying Muslim woman. He hoped the violent images would send a message to the world that the conflict demanded immediate intervention. His pictures reached a mass audience when they appeared on the pages of Newsweek, Time and Paris Match. Haviv was shocked to discover that there would be no response to the violence he had caught on film. A week later, shooting broke out in Sarajevo and the bloody conflict escalated.

Give me a break!!!!!!!! I trust Ron Haviv before I trust Massey, any day of the week...

[lumpy]

68. Respectfully, you say Mr. Haviv

contests Massey's accounts. Where can we find anything Mr. Haviv has to say about Massey. After much searching I cannot find anything to back up your claims re. Mr. Haviv.

[MADem]

112. READ the damn ARTICLE. n/t

[lumpy]

117. Well, damnit, I have read the damn

ARTICLE. I have read many many articles about Massey and Haviv and the whole damn thing. Still you don't tell us your source or sources for scathing Massey and his account of his experiences in Iraq. Elucidate!

[MADem]

120. See post 119 n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. And Mr. Haviv was where in Iraq, exactly? How does this story lend...

...any credibility to to Massey's detractors?

Additionally, what do you know about Operation Mockingbird?

[MADem]

113. Now I know you are just blowing smoke

Haviv, if you READ THE ARTICLE, was embedded with Massey's UNIT.

I know all about OM, and if you think Haviv was part of that stuff, you know absolutely NOTHING about the guy. He is probably the most antiwar photojournalist on the goddamn planet.

[JoZbean]

151. We're mixing up people....Harris wrote the piece, Havic wasn't quoted

Haviv..........was embedded with Massey's UNIT.

http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=201

"Quantico Marine Base Public Affairs Officer Lt. Col. Richard Long, former director of Public Affairs and the embedded reporter program in Iraq, began circulating an article Monday published in the St. Louis Post Dispatch, Saturday, November 5, by former embedded reporter Ron Harris, accusing me of lying. Harris not only was not assigned to my Weapon’s Company, (he was with Lima), and was not present for any of the incidents he disputes, but before last week, had not spoken with me once since my return."

[tx_dem41]

10. Read the whole story. Its pretty obvious that he is not a "truth teller".

[lumpy]

43. This isn't the only source.

v

[daleo]

11. Bush and his troop are the real liars when it comes to Iraq

We know that. They waged aggressive war on a country based on lies. Everything else is distraction.

[tx_dem41]

13. Does it not bother you that Massey is obviously lying?

If you can condone that or overlook it, how can you be in a position to condemn someone else's lies?

[daleo]

20. I am not condoning any lies this guy might be telling, if he is lying

I am just saying it is a distraction from the key point, which is that the whole Iraq war is based on a lie. Naturally, a million smaller lies will spin off of that one. His could be a small subset of those.

[MADem]

14. You are right, but idiots like this clown do NOT HELP the cause

What he has done, in essence, is give the right an 'out' to claim that ANY incident is a load of Massey-style bullshit by an attention seeker with a personality disorder.

I feel sorry that the guy is unwell, but who needs this kind of shit, when there are enough actual issues that will serve as grist for the mill....

[daleo]

22. I guess that is why I am saying it is distraction

You have a point about claims and counter-claims of credibility. And, no doubt the wingnuts will make exactly this sort of case - they love guilt by association after all. The notion that he could be a plant is not unreasonable either.

That is why I said the important point is that the whole war is a lie. The right wing can't dispute that (at least not very convincingly) anymore.

By the way, I am not claiming people shouldn't pay attention to these distractions. In a way, life is a series of distractions. I am just saying that we have to keep the main argument always in mind. The Bushites will be throwing up a lot of chaff in the near future, especially if the Fitzgerald trial starts to unravel their stories.

[MADem]

30. I honestly do not think this guy got out after 12 years under his own

steam....discharge documents remain private unless the member signs a SF 180 releasing the documents to others, and I'll bet his unexpurgated 214 is an interesting read, especially the lower right hand corner and the remarks section.

I think I would make some money if I bet that his RE code was 4, with an annotation that he has a permanent psychiatric disqualifier.

You aren't going to find many people who are more against this war than I am, and I have decades in service under some less than pleasant conditions that have helped to shape my view. But this guy, I think, is a flake. He needs some help, but he should get it from the VA, and stay the hell away from the activist camp.

He ain't helping!!!!

[daleo]

44. I respect your opinion

I don't doubt the experiences he has had could have sent him over the edge. It is possible some of his claims are true, some are delusional exaggerations of underlying events, and some a plain made up.

On edit - It is interesting that a lot of the claims he has made correlate with actual events, although he was not necessarily present. Shooting into a crowd of protesters, if I recall correctly, is what first generated the wide spread hostility to the U.S. presence in Fallujah. There are numerous reports of civilians, including kids, being killed at checkpoints (the famous picture of the blood drenched little girl, whose family had just been shot, comes to mind). Then there is the shooting of the Italian journalist and secret service agent.

He may not be telling the truth about his own activities, but his stories are certainly based on a wider truth. It is a complicated and interesting situation, any way you look at it.

[MADem]

61. Turns out he was there for less than two months, shipped home on a psych

He did not even get to see the fake statue toppling! There was no significant resistance during his time in country. Ron Haviv was right--the biggest action was the looting...

I'm sure he gathered up a slew of war stories, combined it with some shit he read, and churned out a compelling read full of personal prevarications, anecdotes, and half-truths. But hey, he was a USMC recruiter--he knew, already, how to spin out a fine line of horseshit!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. You personally don't know what Massey saw while he was in Iraq, do you?

[MADem]

107. And, of course, you do! n/t

[lumpy]

75. Ron Haviv ??

What is the connection between Ron Haviv and Massey? Rather I should say, does Haviv even know Massey? I realize that Haviv is a renowned & respected war journo-photographer. If you could just submit something to substantiate the claims that Haviv doesn't believe Massey is telling the truth. Really would like to get some substantial answers since there have been so many accounts of miitary mistreatments of civilians in Iraq. The reasons for disproving Massey's accounts are very weak, so far. His limited time in Iraq, his mental abiiities and the fact he has spoken out against the war just doesn't cut it.

[MADem]

106. Haviv was EMBEDDED with Massey's unit.

Think back to the buildup of Monkey's Great War. NO JOURNALISTS were allowed in without embed credentials. There were five guys with his unit, and Ron was one of them. The PD reporter was another.

If you read the whole article, and also research Massey's own statements, his radio appearances, his book, and so forth, you see that he changes his story virtually every time he opens his mouth.

The kid had problems, but I think we are better served by accounts from people who were there when things started getting really rough--during the actual OCCUPATION--not someone who rode through Iraq enroute to Baghdad, and then bagged it. The guy did less than two months in theater BEFORE the insurgency, before the IEDs, the car bombs, the RPGs, and so on.

War is scary as hell and most people are not cut out for it--that's normal, it's self-preservation. But this guy wants to have it both ways, and I still say he is a bullshitter who HURTS the antiwar cause.

[lumpy]

114. You keep refering to Haviv

as being the expert who was with Massey's unit and made atatements that Massey was lying. I know that there were selected journalists imbedded in units. Five journalists in Massey's unit, yet fail to find them named anywhere. The PD article doesn't name the journalists. If you could show us info that proves your statements, it might settle more questions in our minds. I have read about Haviv's exploits but have failed to find any reference to Massey. Why can't you do this?

[MADem]

116. Why don't YOU do a little research, then?

Go read everything Massey has said and written. Note how his stories change with the wind. The guy is NOT CREDIBLE.

There are plenty who are, though, and many of them are sitting in the lobby at Walter Reed, or up in the physical therapy/rehab ward, or parked in VA hospitals all over this land.

But go ahead and buy his BS, the only one who will look foolish is you.

[lumpy]

118. Your only argument is that you believe

the 'guy is not credible'. You have yet to reference any source other than what the 'guy' has to say and the apparently non-existent remarks Haviv said re.Massey's exploits. I do not necessarily buy any BS including anything that perhaps may be BS about Massey's war experiences.

[MADem]

121. See post 118 n/t

[lumpy]

123. I am familiar with post 118

I believe I wrote it.

[MADem]

125. Sorry, 119 (my mouse jumped)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1904901&mesg_id=1906539

[JoZbean]

82. Look, I'm not here to fight about it.

I'm here for the truth. It bothers me that some of you would read ONE story, ONE newspaper story and Massey is a delusional liar. He's been tried, convicted and now you're executing him on the basis of ONE new story. I'm not looking for where Massey tells his story, I'm looking for more original stories that dispute him, other than the Dispatch and fuckin' Freepers forums.

MADem, I appreciate that you've gone on, after you'd already decided Massey was guilty, and did a bit more research. However, I feel like you were looking for validation for what you already believed.

In my own search, I've found a couple of articles where he recounts his story, and it says (to paraphrase) 'event validated by the journalist writing the article.' But no name.

I only want the truth and the ONLY way to get it is to discuss, research and share that research and discuss some more.

This matters, it matters a lot, if he's telling the truth or lying. I would think that you'd want unequivocal proof rather than going on your gut feelings after reading the story. Without going back, I can't remember if you had heard of Jim Massey before the Dispatch article or not. However, there's many of us who know him as a co-founder of Veterans Against the Iraq War and you can bet, it matters a lot to all of us whether he's telling the truth or not.

[MADem]

105. All well and good

But the minute I saw that photojourno's name, I knew there was a problem with Massey. Ron Haviv has a history, this guy had less than two months in the sandbox, and somehow managed to see more than what kids who have done repeat tours have seen, assuming they make it back with most limbs intact.

I'm just here for the truth, too, and I do not think you will find another person with military experience on this board who is, and has been, from the git-go, more opposed to this war than I am. I ripped my representative a new one about it, and I am not the type to dash off a letter in a huff. I got back a three page bullshit justification, and I wrote back and knocked him down, point by point, and demanded to know where he lost his gonads. This was two years ago, when the Monkey had his faux 90% approvals.

Bullshit artists do NOT help the cause. They just don't.

[Benhurst]

15. It does look as though he may be a pathological liar like Bush and Cheney.

If so, he should be blocked from holding any high public office.

[JoZbean]

16. I posted this same thread in GD since it was in yesterday's paper

And I wanted to know how we could know where the truth lies. However, it looks like many of you have tried, convicted and executed the guy based on one newspaper story.

I want the truth, what about you?

Since I got little feedback (only one reply) I've been searching all day for more information. And when I check back in here, this is what I find.

Would you be interested in what else I found? From a 'wannabe' freeper site, one person questioned the report that he was lying by asking, "How do we know this guy is lying?"

And this was the reply he got:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's the accuser that must offer evidence.

What if I said "matthew likes to wear women's dresses while home alone."

Prove I'm lying.

Posted by: darleen at May 19, 2004 09:43 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, there you go. We don't have to prove he's lying, we just assume it from ONE story and crucify him.

This is a really great place to talk things over, when there's no rush to judge. However, that's not happening here today.

If you want the truth, you don't assume anything, you search for it. I'm still searching and reserving my judgment till I'm satisfied one way or the other. I wish more would do that.

[Igel]

19. Massey's the one with the accusations to be proven.

We don't just assume the first person to make an accusation--much less a dozen of them--is telling the truth.

If Massey's not telling the truth--and that's a fairly easy thing to say, if the article, with it's verifiable claims, is accurate--then he's the one that has to prove his point. If, of course, the claims that he's inaccurate are plausible.

They sound plausible. The very fact that the claims against Massey are verifiable and diverse, frequently involving quotes from Massey that a Lexis-Nexus search should turn up, lends credibility to those saying his accusations are false.

Whether or not he's lying depends on whether, knowing the truth about the matter, he's willfully saying untruths. He might simply be mentally ill.

[JoZbean]

42. If he's lying, it affects the credibility of more than just Jim Massey

He's a co-founder of Iraq Veterans Against the War. It makes that organization suspect by association. Don't you all see how it would benefit the Conservative warmongers to discredit him?

I don't know if he's lying or not. I've read many credible sources, such as Amy Goodman of Democracy Now, who apparently believed his story. There are others.

I've read one newspaper story, the St. Louis Dispatch, who says he's lying. Is this a conservative paper or a liberal one or neutral?

I want the truth...whatever it is.

[Benhurst]

62. Good point. NT

[0007]

76. The St. Louis Dispatch sure isn't neutral in red red red Missouri

When I see names like Cindy Sheehan red flags start to appear.

[pintobean]

103. Blue,blue city in a red,red state

2004 election results:
St. Louis City
Kerry 80%
Bush 19%
St. Louis County
Kerry 55%
Bush 45%
The city and county are separate entities.

[MADem]

126. They endorsed KERRY in 04

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004

[pintobean]

131. FYI MADem

Lee enterprises bought the Post earlier this year. The post leans left, but other Lee papers lean right. At the time of the deal, Lee said they wouldn't change things for the first five years. So far, they appear to be keeping their word(IMO).

[lumpy]

21. Plenty of sites on the net

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/05_04/05_26_04/fr_massey.html

Just one source re. interview with Massey.
Best to reserve judgment on this soldier who had spent 12 years in the military; honorably discharged, Parris Island trainer, Marine recruiter, participated in the invasion. There certainly have been many reports of wrongful deaths of civilians that cannot be denied. Just because he was discharged because of PDSD doesn't mean he isn't telling what he has witnessed or experienced. Plenty of smoke from the fire floating around. When this is all over the truth of it ll will seep out.

[JoZbean]

57. Another piece of the puzzle

Okay, the St. Louis Dispatch is owned by Lee Enterprises. This tells me one more piece of the puzzle:

MR. GREGORY P SCHERMER
VICE PRESIDENT
LEE ENTERPRISES, INC.
2160 SAINT ANDREWS CIRCLE
BETTENDORF, IA 52722

Political donation to:
George W. Bush
$2,000

[MADem]

58. They have this story because they had an embed with the unit

I doubt Ron Haviv gave any dough to Bush. And he has a world-wide reputation. And he says the kid is lying.

[Benhurst]

64. Possibly not. But Tim Russert and Judith Miller also have world-wide

reputations.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Bingo.

[JoZbean]

70. You may be right, he may not have given any dough to Bush

However, Havic didn't call Massey a liar.

He merely said and I quote, "Basically, the only people who were on the streets in the first week were there to loot." Of course, this could be construed as saying Massey was lying, but he didn't exactly say it.

Wonder if that's like the media characterized the white folks in NO as "just getting what they needed to survive and the black folks were looting"?

Ron Haviv said he never saw any protesters or demonstrators, with or without signs.

Lt. Kevin Shea, the commander of Massey's platoon, is quoted as saying that on the morning after they arrived, about 20 Iraqis from a nearby community did approach the Marines to ask what was happening. But Havic never saw them?

"Marine Lt. Col. Kevin M. Shea, 38, of Washington, D.C.; assigned to 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed Sept. 14, 2004 by enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq."
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/357963.html

If it's the same Lt. Kevin Shea, I wonder if they interviewed him before or after he died? (No disrespect meant to the family of Lt. Shea.)

[lumpy]

80. I'm afraid we won't get the answer

as to the claims that Ron Haviv was privy to any actions or experiences that Massey took part in. Really don't understand why a couple of posters here are so vehemently opposed to Massey's accounts of his experiences, while most here reserve judgment.

[tx_dem41]

92. Its quite simple actually.

Because HIS accounts differ everytime he appears to talk. The first rule of lying...memorize your story and stick to it.

[Columbia]

87. Two different Kevin Sheas

One is a Lieutenant, the other a Lieutenant Colonel.

The former commands a platoon, the latter usually at least a batallion.

[JoZbean]

94. Thanks, but that doesn't prove it was two different Sheas

His family says he would have returned home to California in November with a promotion to lieutenant colonel. His brother said he would be posthumously promoted.

[Columbia]

96. Lt is O-1 or O-2, LtCol is O-5

It is literally impossible for him to be promoted 3 or 4 levels in a couple years. It takes DECADES to get to LtCol and many who try can't even do that.

[JoZbean]

97. I don't know about rank

and I'm assuming that you're going on his being reported as a Lt. in the Massey piece for the 'couple of years'.

However, the one who died served in the first Gulf War so he's been in for awhile.

I don't know if it's the same man or not.

I'm still trying to get at the truth. I appreciate your responses.

[Columbia]

99. A LtCol would never be in command of a platoon.

You don't need to know about rank. I'm telling you right now. It is impossible.

BTW, a Captain Kevin Shea (O-3 - a probable promotion considering the time frame) is currently alive and well and based at the School of Infantry at Camp Pendleton.

[JoZbean]

100. Thank you.

I'm glad I don't need to know anything and that there will always be someone to tell me what I need to know. :sarcasm:

Want to shake hands and be civil with each other?

[MADem]

Let's have a look at the guy who wrote the article--he is on the left

The guy to his right is another photog who was there. Here they are again, in another view:


You want to hear him talk about African American opposition to the war? Check this link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4976905

And you can read about their experiences with the embed work, here: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/war.nsf/0/7C6CA5F2915EE31E86256D14005A6B81?OpenDocument

The last link includes both their email addresses, perhaps anyone doubting their veracity could assure themselves by sending them an email.

[lumpy]

129. Great interview with Ed Gordon.

Thanks. I don't doubt any embeds veracity. Still haven't heard from Mr.Haviv regarding Massey's veracity.

[MADem]

119. Dupe, sorry, old mouse

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. As an "embed", where do you think Haviv was positioned?....

Here are your choices:

1. Was Haviv up-front where the real action was taking place, close enough that he could smell the blood and gore spattered across roads and walls?

2. Was Haviv close enough to the action to hear rounds going by like Al Gore was in Vietnam?

3. Or, was Haviv "in the rear with the gear" like all of the other "embed journalists" that the NeoCon Junta allowed to write the stories the way the Junta wanted them written?

Here's a hint...if you pick #1 or #2, then you really weren't paying attention to those early reports.

[MADem]

108. Take a few minutes, and research Haviv's career, why don't you?

Go on, do it. Then get back to us.

He was no more "in the rear with the gear" than you have wings and can fly.

[lumpy]

84. Well, we've heard a lot about Haviv

but haven't got any proof that Haviv said 'the kid' is lying. What the hell is YOUR agenda?

[MADem]

110. My agenda is to end this stupid war

And having flakes who have no cred speak for the soldiers and Marines who are coming home minus limbs after doing multiple tours, dealing with a raging insurgency, and not having the appropriate body armor or uparmored Humvees is not the way to win over those who still think this effort is a good idea.

What's your agenda? To defend a bullshitter at all costs?

[lumpy]

122. No

I really don't know who is doing the bullshitting.

[MADem]

128. I stated my agenda, and you are dead wrong n/t

[JoZbean]

136. I've just been watching the video of napalm used in Fallujua

And one of the people interviewed, a woman, Italian, a reporter who was kidnapped, (the one who's escort was shot and killed by US troops as he was returning her to safety?) I think, who says something interesting.

Remember when the American soldier was videotaped shooting the wounded man in the head in Fallujua in the building there? Wounded, barely alive but alive? There was an outcry everywhere. Are you familiar with this story?

She said that the embed who reported this story and the videotape were thrown out of Iraq, no longer permitted to report.

What does this tell me about embeds?

That I'm still questioning Massey's story. I will not label him a liar till I'm convinced he is lying.

[MADem]

139. Only one embed was kicked out of Iraq in the run to Baghdad

which occurred in 03 at the start of the war. Which is the period of time in question.

Just one: Geraldo. He decided to draw a line in the sand, detailling his position, the dunce. On live TV!

Since that time, a lot has happened. The insurgency, for one. Fallujah, Ramadi, IEDs, RPGs, the Syrian border ops.

The war in 03 is NOT the same war that has developed subsequent to the "major combat operations have ended" horseshit. Fallujah was the opening salvo of this "other war" -- if you recall, the reporters at the fancy media center basically walked out, because they weren't getting any useful information from the briefers.

A large percentage of the reporters who remain in Iraq nowadays do nothing but order room service and ask the waiters what the hell is going on--they are prisoners, essentially.

You have every right to your opinion, but I think Ron Harris isn't lying, and was not bought off. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[JoZbean]

142. The thing is, MADem, we might not disagree eventually

I did some more research last night, not based on anything you've used to back up your position. But because I want to know the TRUTH.

I sat on a jury once, a bank robbery. With the evidence presented, there was no way I could vote to convict, even though I felt sure, in my heart, that they had the right guy. However, the evidence presented didn't prove it, in any shape or form. The ONLY thing they had linking him to the bank was a laminated card that had been in the bank for several months. They found a partial print on that card. Not on the doors, not on the counters, not on the money drawers, not on the money with dye packs. Nothing that he had definitely touched that morning. ONLY on one of many stupid cards that had been lying on the counters all summer.

There was one other woman who held out, like I did, for proof that he'd been in the bank the morning of the robbery. That was the last piece of the puzzle so that I could vote my conscience for conviction. The rest of the jury was ready to call for a hung jury. I decided to take a smoke break *yes, they had rooms for the jury to smoke in a government building, then, anyway* and I just told them, 'when you find a way to convince me that he was in the bank the morning of the robbery, I'll change my vote.'

I stepped into the smoking room but left the door open to listen to the conversation. The talk continued. As they talked, one woman picked up the card and was just looking at it and mused, "I wonder how come his print is on top of all the others and not smeared, like all the others on this card?"

Bingo!

I'm waiting for the "Bingo!" here, and while I've only got one or two spaces left in order to have a Bingo, I'm just not there yet. I honestly don't understand how you got there so fast, but then, I never understood how the rest of that jury got there so fast either. The print on top of all the others had not occurred to anyone else who was voting for conviction early on in the deliberations.

Keep talking, if you're a mind too, you never know when I might fill that space. Stop talking if you don't care one way or the other. Either way, you're right, we can agree to disagree. Or not.

Have I made any sense to you at all?

[MADem]

145. Sure. My bingos were Ron Haviv and Ron Harris, frankly

Haviv has spent his LIFE covering the sheer brutality of war, in horrific circumstances -- he is no cheerleader, has never been; and Harris has NEVER been an apologist for BushCo, Inc. They are both pacifists, not apologists, and if they could see it another way, they would. But they are also dedicated to the truth.

So, if I have to pick between a Jewish 'kid' from NYC (he ain't a kid but to me--anyone else would say he is middle aged) and a young black journalist, and this flaky Marine who was not even there during the really, truly rough shit, and lasted only WEEKS in country, yet had more war stories than David Fucking Hackworth....well, who ya gonna believe?

No one, again I say, NO ONE, is more opposed to this war than I am, but I believe we can win points on TRUTH, not supporting some goddamn Rambo nutcase (yes, mean/cruel characterization--the kid is mentally ill, I feel sorry for that, but think he set the movement back a good, or BAD, year) who wants two things: ATTENTION, and MORE ATTENTION. Massey is a disturbed LIAR. I've seen these types, I know them, an odd few have been my subordinates--he is FOS (full of shit) in a major way. He makes shit up to make himself feel better about the fact that he could not cut it on the run to Baghdad. He blew the USMC credo--stick with your buds, back them up at all costs. Guilt inducing; how to remedy that???

And he is is, indeed, mentally ill.

And I am firm in that assessment.

Others mileage may vary, but I know what I know.

[Columbia]

83. St Louis Post Dispatch endorses Kerry in 2004

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/24/Decision2004/Newspaper_endorsements.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_U.S._presidential_election,_2004
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/cands/endorsements/stlpd101004.html

Sunday, October 10, 2004
DECISION 2004: Kerry for president

BASED ON HIS RECORD, President George W. Bush has not earned re-election. He has mishandled the war on terrorism, shut his eyes to disagreeable facts, left the next generation in hock and presided over a sharp loss in jobs, health insurance and prosperity for millions of Americans.

[JoZbean]

86. That helps to expand the inquiry. Thanks

Now, let's keep talking, it's still not settled in my mind, and maybe in many more minds.

[JoZbean]

90. Lee Enterprises with Gregory P Schermer, Veep

and who contributed $2000 to Bush, only bought the Post-Dispatch in June of 05.

Who they endorsed in 04 may not be who they'd endorse now. I have to retract my appreciation of your post. But we can still be pals, right? :pals:


See what I mean about researching, coming back to share that research and researching some more? :think:

[Columbia]

93. Does Mr. Schermer own Lee Enterprises?

And have editorial control over the 58 newspapers it owns?

http://www.lee.net/aboutlee/bios.shtml#schermer

Seems like he is not THE Vice Presient, but a VP of the "Interactive" section which promotes the online content of the newspapers.

That's quite a stretch to use his political donation to discredit an entire newspaper don't you think?

[JoZbean]

95. I'm not discrediting the entire newspaper.....

I said that was a 'piece of the puzzle.'

On edit:

He's not only Veep (of whatever) he's also on the Board of Directors.

[0007]

78. The St. Louis Dispatch sure isn't neutral in red red red Missouri

When I see names like Cindy Sheehan red flags start to appear.

[JoZbean]

85. Cindy usually comes out fairly early as an indication of what's to come

in the 'meat' of the story.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

89. Not at all helpful Mr Massey

As someone else has commented, this will be an invaluable weapon the right will undoubtedly use against any story of atrocities in Iraq.

[JoZbean]

98. Hell, the Right doesn't have to....

We're doing just fine on the Left.

[0007]

102. We now know about all the lies the media told us about Pat Tillman

and indeed a story out of St. Louis hasn't convinced me that Jimmy Massey is a liar.

There is probably more truth to his stories than this country wants to admit.

[Tiberius]

104. There is more truth than we want to admit...

But this is one of the stories he recounted:

<snip>

Massey cited instructions of commanders disregarding lives of Iraq
civilians as one of many reasons still driving him nuts.

"Throw candies in the school courtyard, and open fire on children
rushing to snatch them. Crush them," he recalled officers as saying
during drills.

<snip>

Despite the terrible things we've done over there, I'm not sure I believe this. But again, I'll reserve judgement... til later.

[0007]

109. Does sound unconventional but who knows?

[MADem]

127. That is what they are, STORIES

Stories he picked up from others, and claimed as his own. Who knows what he heard at the PTSD clinic in group? Who knows what he read, and where?

No one is arguing that atrocities did not occur, that this war is a goddamn lie, and that it was a mistake of the highest magnitude, but we do not need a lying bullshitter carrying real water in support of the cause. It is NOT helpful.

Ant the St. Louis Post-Dispatch endorsed KERRY in '04.

Had Pat Tillman's unit had an embed, we just might have known the truth a helluva lot sooner. Not all of the journalists sucked down the Kool-Aid, and Ron Harris is one who has retained a skeptical eye on the whole endeavor.

[Barrett808]

135. Wonder what he would say about Fallujah and chemical weapons

Iraq: Italian TV alleges U.S. used chemical weapons in Fallujah
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1906845&mesg_id=1906845

[ljaycox]

137. Another article...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/56CC420E23027E0D862570B0007200BC?OpenDocument


Why did the press swallow Massey's stories?
By Ron Harris
POST-DISPATCH WASHINGTON BUREAU
11/05/2005

WASHINGTON

Media outlets throughout the world have reported Jimmy Massey's claims of war crimes, frequently without ever seeking to verify them.

For instance, no one ever called any of the five journalists who were embedded with Massey's battalion to ask him or her about his claims.

...


"Why would we have run this?"

That Massey wasn't telling the truth should have become obvious the more he told his stories, said Phillip Dixon, former managing editor of The Philadelphia Inquirer and currently chairman of the Howard University Department of Journalism.

Dixon examined dozens of newspaper articles in which Massey told of the atrocities that Marines allegedly committed in Iraq.

"He couldn't keep his story straight," said Dixon, who has also been an editor at The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. "First it was a 4-year-old girl with a bullet hole in her head, then it was a 6-year-old girl."

.......

"The truth suffers"

Michael Parks sees it differently. He is the director of the University of Southern California Annenberg School of Journalism and formerly the editor of the Los Angeles Times. Parks also reviewed stories written about Massey.

"A reporter's obligation is to check the allegation, to seek comment from the organization that's accused," said Parks, a Pulitzer Prize winner who covered the Vietnam War as a reporter for the Baltimore Sun. "They can't let allegations lie on the table, unchecked or unchallenged. When they don't do that, it's a clear disservice to the reader."
........


Dixon said: "As a journalist, you want to put accurate information before the public so they can make opinions and decisions based on accurate information. When something like this happens, harm is done, the truth suffers. "

[ignatzmouse]

138. Is Massey a plant?

Perhaps we won't know the truth until Massey responds further, but this was my take on reading the article and other published interviews with the guy. The obvious inarticulate simplicity and sloppiness of his statements seem almost designed to set up the media and anti-war movement in order to discredit them. A bit like the bait served up to Rather. If so, the counter argument is simply that the corporate media were gung-ho dupes who failed to question the claims and aims of this administration going into war, so if they're not fact-checking falsehoods, they are simply continuing a proud tradition. Both in supporting falsehoods and in being duped by them, the press continues to serve the wider intentions of the disinformation brokers.

[Barrett808]

140. One has to wonder if he's a provocateur spreading disinformation. n/t

[JoZbean]

152. Massey has responded

http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=201

[yurbud]

143. Karl Rove poison pill--send truth with an unreliable messenger

stink of messenger ruins truth.

[MisterP]

146. or just keep saying the messenger stinks and is unreliable

like the "proportional spacing" BS they kept hammering us with, and credited Rather's downfall to--and guess what, * DID go AWOL and the memo did portray events accurately, even if apparently a retype

[goodhue]

144. I don't buy the smear against Massey

I've seen him speak in person and find him entirely credible. Of course others will deny his claims, but don't shoot the messenger.

[Barrett808]

147. Interesting -- so would you say this story is a hit piece? n/t

[JoZbean]

150. I'd say you all need to read this piece:

http://www.counterpunch.org/goff11082005.html

"If anyone doubts that reporters do in fact fuck up as well as misquote people, I will say for myself that I have been misquoted more than quoted in the last ten years, but let's let Harris' own accuracy be put to the test in this very article.

Harris says, "While touring with Sheehan in Montgomery, Ala., he told of seeing the girl's body." Sheehan did not join that leg of the three-bus tour until Atlanta. She was never in Montgomery. I just got an email from Cindy confirming that. No big deal in most circumstances. Just a minor error. But since what is good for the Massey-goose is examination with an electron microscope, let's just say its sauce for the Post-Dispatch's embedded-gander.

Second-hand scuttlebutt from blogs misquoting out of context does not strike me as very sound journalism, but then I'm not a journalist. Those are the only place, however, where you can find anything resembling Harris' peculiar and venomous construction of Jimmy Massey."

[Barrett808]

148. Outing a liar: Hero Marine gets caught pulling a John Kerry (MT News)

Outing a liar: Hero Marine gets caught pulling a John Kerry
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x171758

[theboss]

149. I will never understand the need to endorse any kook who takes our side

If two people see the same thing and one has years of credibility and the other can't keep his story straight, I believe the one with years of credibility.

[JoZbean]

153. Once more for good measure.......

<snip>
"Jimmy Massey's sin is that he hasn't transformed Iraqis into extras on the set of a modern-day frontier masculinity script. Though Harris yesterday on CNN claimed that Jimmy is motivated by "profit," Jimmy and his wife have been living pretty close to the margin since Jimmy was released from service with severe post-traumatic stress disorder. Contrary to this scurrilous assertion, Jimmy Massey has been trying to tell anyone who will listen that a hell of a lot of civilians are being killed in Iraq the very thing that Harris has worked so diligently to excuse. Little wonder that the mirror that Jimmy Massey holds up to reporters who compulsively justify these killings is one they need to break.

The real sin, of course, is opposing the war. This is part of an escalation against war opponents. The LA Times just reported that one of the biggest churches in Pasadena was warned by the IRS before last year's elections that it could lose its tax exempt status if it preached against the war.

Harris, a Black man, who right-wing bloggers love to love when they are doing a yeoman's task for God, the Market, or the War, has now become the darling of these white nationalist internet denizens. These puerile neo-fascists gleefully blasted Harris' November 8th hit-piece through the blogoshpere faster than you can say Free Republic."

http://www.counterpunch.org/goff11082005.html

[JoZbean]

154. Kick

So this is settled in everyone's mind? No further discussion?