French Leaders Meet as Riots Spread

[occuserpens]

It is quite clear that French riots need to be suppressed. But it is also clear that police measures are not enough.

Now we know that recent ethnic dressing code provisions in France turned out to be a whitewash, the roots of euro-Muslim crisis are much deeper. Yes, economic measures are necessary, but this is not enough as well. Political alienation of euro-Muslims needs to be addressed to find the way out of the crisis.

Brief check of National Review shows that GWOT and the Iraqi war are essentially Islamophobic.To make things worse, the conflict, like Vietnamese war in the 1970-ies, spills over to Syria and Iran. This is the true meaning of fighting "Islamofascist imperialism"! Unfortunately, France and EU support the neocons in this.

Since moderate anti-war movement is effectively stalled by neocons and their European allies, radical Islamists make their way to the surface. Export of "democratic revoultion" to the ME backfires in the most miserable way.

French Leaders Meet as Riots Spread: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1766239,00.html

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1766080_4,00.jpg
France's prime minister summoned key ministers to his offices on Saturday to determine a political response to the violent night-time clashes which began on the outskirts of Paris more than a week ago.
French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin summoned eight ministers to his offices on Saturday to plan a response to the nightly clashes which, now in their second week, have increased in severity and spread to other French cities.
Nearly 900 vehicles were torched and over 250 people arrested on Saturday as French authorities feared those behind the country's worst rioting for decades were becoming organized.
Deprived suburbs with large immigrant populations on the fringes of Paris were again the scene of the worst of the rampages, which largely took the form of hit-and-run arson attacks.

http://inplainview.us.tt/newsNRO.htm

[Orrin_73]

1. Hopefully the french dont build

camps and put the rioters in there. The politicians have to adress the riots with the community leaders of the minority groups. Talking with the rioters wont help.

[occuserpens]

3. No, they won't

But it is pretty bad for general HR situation - real one, not "HR" from neocons.

[Orrin_73]

4. I updated my message

[occuserpens]

9. Community leaders?

<The politicians have to adress the riots with the community leaders of the minority groups.>

Certainly the need to work with local communities. But local communities can't do much. Theya re not responsible for unemploymnt abd can't do much about Islamist radicals.

[1932]

11. Giving people legitimate political outlets for opinions decreases

the likelihood of people using extra-legal methods.

Indeed, the government needs to incorporate community leaders into political process.

[Orrin_73]

13. With community leaders I meant

social and religious leaders of these minorities.

[Kagemusha]

21. Silly. The rioters already live in camps. They're called slums.

Or perhaps the French have another word for that, too.

[Psephos]

30. Actually, the more accurate term is ghettoes.

And the isolation is at least partly self-imposed, although the European predilection, established over many centuries, for keeping national identities separate even within the same region, is also a factor. (The Jewish ghettoes of Europe are a handy example.) In the US, the influence of so many generations of immigrants somewhat lessened this isolation bias.

Some degree of assimilation of the Islamics into general society is the only long-term answer in France, and in the rest of Europe, too. Human beings have a genetic need to identify an in-group and an out-group. We bond to the fellow members of our in-group and sooner or later figure out a pretext (almost any will do) for hating the out-group.

Peace

[occuserpens]

2. What about "clash of civilizations" and Turkey?

One important argument for the Turkish membership in the EU is that it will help to avoid "civilization clash" between Christianity and Islam. The problem is, this argumentation completely ignores both euro-Muslim situation and the ME crisis. In fact, Turkish membership has very little to do with these issues! Considering the French riots, Turkish membership looks more and more like a wrong answer for the wrong question.

[Orrin_73]

5. I dont see the link

between the riots in paris and Turkey.

[occuserpens]

7. That's wrong answer

As I pointed out, riots are a real problem which needs solution. But they spend time on artificial issues like Turkish membership instead of taking care of it.

[NorthernSpy]

6. how about deporting any hostile non-citizens...

... for a start?

[occuserpens]

8. Do you know who are the rioters?

They appear to be teens, second generation immigrants! Nothing like illegals. Illegals do not riot, they keep low profile.

[hogwyld]

10. Then make the punishment severe enough

Where it is a deterrent. Something like deporting the parents for not keeping their children in line. Maybe they ought to send these hooligans to Devil's Island!

[occuserpens]

12. West Bank in France?

<omething like deporting the parents for not keeping their children in line. Maybe they ought to send these hooligans to Devil's Island!>

First, most of them are citizens. Next, that's Israeli way. Do you want WBG in France?

[1932]

14. I think some of their grievances are legitimate.

Severe punishment isn't going to solve all the problems.

[hogwyld]

16. I Agree

But they need to do it under civilized channels. If the world is going to submit to mob rule, we might as well pack it in. I for one do not want to live in a Mad Max world.

[occuserpens]

19. Riots need to suppressed

But this is only part of the story

[NorthernSpy]

15. being born in France no longer confers automatic citizenship...

... though I do realize that many of the rioters are likely citizens of France. I'm merely reminding everyone that no country is obliged to put up with hostile aliens -- and that anyone who meets that description might best be handled with a one-way ticket home.

[hogwyld]

17. Didn't they change the law sometime

in the mid '70's or early '80's? It was a reaction to illegal aliens coming in and popping out a baby so they could stay. Similar to what happens here in the States.

[occuserpens]

18. you miss the point

<... though I do realize that many of the rioters are likely citizens of France. I'm merely reminding everyone that no country is obliged to put up with hostile aliens -- and that anyone who meets that description might best be handled with a one-way ticket home.>

You miss the point! Non-citizens and especially illegals are very unlikely to riot exactly because they know what will happen next.

The only exception is clerics, but that's different story.

[cliss]

20. Help me understand -

I understand that there are over 3 million immigrants in France, "from islamic countries including North Africa". There is apparently a very large unemployment rate among these neighborhoods.

1) If there is a large unemployment in France, why did these people go there?

2) Why did the French government allow so many to immigrate in?

[hogwyld]

22. One reason they go

Is because France has a very generous welfare system. They receive unemployment, health care second to none, and various other subsidized benefits.
France used to have colonies all over the world. The biggest was Algeria in N. Africa. When they got their independence in 1962, part of the deal was that whoever wanted to go to France could go.

[occuserpens]

23. answers

<1) If there is a large unemployment in France, why did these people go there?>

From the immigrants' prospective, it is still better than in Africa.

<2) Why did the French government allow so many to immigrate in?>

That's neoliberal policy. They prefer importing cheap labour and outsourcing to social improvements at home. Now chickens come home to roost.

[occuserpens]

24. French riots: the Arab solution

[wildcat78]

25. A revolution now and then is a good thing

I have not seen any reports on these riots on the news. Or, did I miss it?

I believe we need a revolution here.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

[occuserpens]

26. hmmmmmmmmmmm...

[hogwyld]

29. So, are you in favor

of letting the rioters to take over the country? Would it be a "good thing" if they enacted a form of sharia law? What about the nuclear weapons France has? I for one am terrified at the prospect.

[bemildred]

27. Not a pretty picture, is it?

I think the government is screwed here. What few answers there are, are ugly, and probably not very effective. OTOH, it will probably die down eventually, esp. if they jettison the dimwit interior minister.

[occuserpens]

28. Pretty ugly :-(

Also, riots of this scale are completely unexpected - at least for those who don't read French.

[maddezmom]

31. locking

updated thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1905467&mesg_id=1905467