U.S. Methodist panel orders gay minister defrocked (Reuters)

[Up2Late]

(Edited to include new link and more complete story)

U.S. Methodist panel orders gay minister defrocked

Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:42 AM ET

By Michael Conlon

CHICAGO (Reuters) - The United Methodist Church's top court has ordered a lesbian minister defrocked, overturning a lower panel's ruling that had reversed the penalty, the church announced on Monday. Elizabeth Stroud "was accorded all fair and due process rights" and an appeals committee that reversed her removal from the ministry in April erred in saying church officials had failed to define what a "practicing homosexual" was in terms of church law, the ruling said.

The decision by the nine-member Judicial Council is final. A church spokeswoman said Stroud could ask the panel to reconsider, but the quest would be heard by the same panel, and only two members dissented. The ruling is the latest development over an issue that has divided Christian denominations. The ordination of an openly gay man as a bishop in the U.S. Episcopal church continues to strain relations between liberals and conservatives in that body and with the worldwide Anglican community.

The Vatican has been conducting an investigation of U.S. Roman Catholic seminaries to determine if there is a problem with homosexuality.

In December 2004 a lower church court stripped Stroud, 35, of her credentials as a minister at the First United Methodist Church of Germantown, Philadelphia, saying she violated the church's Book of Discipline, which forbids the ordination and appointment of "self-avowed practicing homosexuals."

<http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-10-31T162555Z_01_SIB156497_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-GAYS.xml>

[funflower]

1. This issue will split the UMC. There are a ton of gay/lesbian clergy as

well as rank-and-file members in the UMC.

[brer cat]

41. There are good things about UMC that aren't reported

Board of Church and Society calls for withdrawal from Iraq


Jim Winkler

Jim Winkler
Oct. 19, 2005

By Mark Schoeff Jr.*

WASHINGTON (UMNS) - On a day when officials at the State Department were monitoring the results of a constitutional referendum in Iraq, a couple of miles away in a local hotel the United Methodist Board of Church and Society passed a resolution calling on the United States to withdraw its troops from the country.

"As people of faith, we raise our voice in protest against the tragedy of the unjust war in Iraq," the resolution stated. "We urge the United States government to develop and implement a plan for the withdrawal of its troops. The U.S. invasion has set in motion a sequence of events which may plunge Iraq into civil war."

Criticizing a war "waged on false premises," the resolution went on to state, "Thousands of lives have been lost and hundreds of billions of dollars wasted in a war the United States initiated and should never have fought. ...We grieve for all those whose lives have been lost or destroyed in this needless and avoidable tragedy. Military families have suffered undue hardship from prolonged troop rotations in Iraq and loss of loved ones. It is time to bring them home."

The resolution passed easily on the last day of the board's Oct. 13-17 meeting, with only two no votes and one abstention.

[swimboy]

2. The Good News Movement has been packing the Courts.

It's a "good news" movement the way "healthy forests" is . . . well you get my point.

This will be a mess until the church becomes comfortable with inclusion.

[Wapsie B]

3. Looks like some of the fundies have gained control of the UMC.

Just like they did with the Baptists and others. The ELCA defrocked a minister in Ames, Iowa several years ago. The Bishop who did it acted as if he was obligated to do it. So there are nuts in every sect.

[libnnc]

4. I wonder if she can appeal?

I grew up in the Methodist church. I haven't darkened their door in 15 years. It's shameful that the church continues to spiritually terrorize its own clergy.

"Open hearts, open minds, open doors..." Except if you're a lesbian minister.

[LeftHander]

5. Another "guilty" gay....afforded all due process....

UUs can always use another minister...

So nice to see a religious organization with such compassion.

[libnnc]

6. I've been following this case since last year

there was actually a documentary filmed about her congregation titled "The Congregation" and it aired on PBS last year. Her church (First UMC of Germantown, PA) adores her and doesn't want her to leave. I think they will let her stay on in a lay capacity. She's never considered working in any other denomination. The UUs would be darn lucky to have her IMHO, but I don't think she'd consider that option.

[jbond56]

7. I canceled my membership today. nt

[JudyM]

29. great move, tho sad. n/t

[JPZenger]

8. Its a Shame

I am a United Methodist, and this decision upsets me. The UMC practiced a "don't ask, don't tell policy" which seemed to work well. In this case, the Minister decided to publicly announce she was a practicing lesbian (with a long-time partner), and that set off a process prescribed in the rule books. The intermediate board that previously heard this matter had fortunately found a technicality that had allowed them to sidestep the issue.

I hate to see any religious organization split over these emotional issues. Most mainstream moderate protestant denominations are rapidly aging and are losing younger members to evangelical denominations.

There is a group out of Washington D.C. that has been working to split many Protestant religions. They set up front organizations for each denomination and then send out inflamatory mailings to members of that denomination. There is one for the United Methodist Church, which is believe is called Methodist Watch. They find controversial liberal statements made by a member of some committee and broadcast them throughout the country. "Rise up and take back control of your religion and smite these liberals."

[AnneD]

9. oh no...

This is a very divicive issue. If they took out all the gays in the UMC-it would put a dent that might suprise some. I, and I am UMC, personally think this is wrong and feel that (as our pastor said this weekend) we are to be a church of service. We should be inclusion not exclusion.

[Boomer]

10. I don't need any more practice

I figured out how to be a lesbian years ago.

[closeupready]

11. If they dont ban shellfish-eaters from ministring, they're hypocritical

at least, if the rule in the Book of Disciplines is based upon Leviticus, or, for that matter, any other Old Testament scipture.

[area51]

31. "If they don't ban shellfish-eaters from ministring, they're hypocritical"

Exactly. Some people get so worked up over one part of Leviticus, yet somehow manage to miss all the rest....

[XemaSab]

33. As my (queer) Methodist pastor put it

"A gay man eating lobster is twice as sinful!"

[IndianaGreen]

35. Menstruating women must also be kept away from church

That's in Leviticus too!

Women should also be barred from reading the Bible and should remain quiet and their heads covered. That's what Paul wrote in his epistles.

[cassiepriam]

12. Have I mentioned yet that this country is driving me INSANE??

The American Taliban will be the death of us all.

[JPZenger]

13. Fourth Largest Denomination in the US

I believe the United Methodist Church is the fourth largest religious denomination in the U.S. It was formed through the merger of many different denominations during the 1950s and 1960s. As a result, it is very diverse politically, with liberal churches in northeastern cities and very conservative churches in the Bible Belt. In response, the UMC has rather successfully avoided most political controversies in recent years. This situation unfortunately will change that.

By the way, Ms. Stroud is still employed by the liberal church she has served, just not as a pastor.

[NVMojo]

14. Methodists Defrock Lesbian Minister

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - The highest court within the United Methodist Church defrocked a lesbian minister Monday for violating the denomination's ban on "self-avowed, practicing homosexual" clergy.

The nine-member Judicial Council - seven of whom heard the case Thursday in Houston - issued the ruling through its Web site. The denomination's communications office is based in Nashville.

A church panel decided in December that the Rev. Irene "Beth" Stroud, 35, by being in a lesbian partnership, engaged in practices that the church has declared incompatible with Christian teachings.

more...

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/oct/31/103107600.html

[Lerkfish]

15. weird. there are married methodist ministers. Are they self-avowed

practicing heterosexuals?

they should be defrocked as well.

sheesh.

[NVMojo]

16. it's all sick ...

[closeupready]

17. Yeah, what an arbitrary ban. Are self-avowed shellfish eaters banned too?

Give me a break.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. I think they will eventually regret this.

In about 50 years they are going to look VERY stupid.

[PurityOfEssence]

19. They said they'd frock her back if she'd let 'em watch

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are NO admonishments against female on female homosexuality in the Bible. This shows many things, but it really underlines the male domination of that part of the world at that time. (It simply wasn't in question: inferiors wouldn't do that...)

If the wacky literalists are going to get all bent out of shape, they should examine the specifics of the document to which they are so beholden.

Hatred of the different is the cornerstone of most religions. The PR about "love" and "acceptance" is nothing but that: PR.

Religions are political organizations, and as such, care mostly for their own survival and the subjugation of contrary opinions.

[bperci108]

22. But...

The United Methodists are nowhere near "wacky literalism"; on the contrary, they are one of the most tolerant and "liberal" christian denominations, especially compared to the radical Fundies who pretty much still consider women as property.

I guess that tolerance they speak of on their new TV spots doesn't extend to their clergy. :(

[regnaD kciN]

24. I believe the "new TV spots" you speak of...

...are from the United Church of Christ (UCC), not the United Methodists.

The UCC is very much a liberal denomination. The United Methodists are mainstream Protestants with a lot of dissention over same-sex issues -- many members are quite liberal, while some are more conservative on the matter.

The problem is that many denominations are working under constitutions or canons that were drawn up several centuries ago, when the matter seemed to be "clear-cut" that homosexuality was sinful. Even if advances in psychology and biology have pretty much blown that concept out of the water, the constitutions they operate under were made intentionally difficult to amend. (And not just on gay rights, either; as an Episcopalian, I remember how it took the better part of the '70s to figure out a way to authorize the ordination of women, given a constitution drawn up in the late 1700s when the notion of a "lady preacher" was thought of as absurd.)

Unfortunately, courts like those in the Methodist case can only work with the rules that were originally set up. I suspect that those who ruled that this woman had to be removed from the ministry didn't personally want to do so, but couldn't find a way around the canon law they were charged with implementing.

[bperci108]

32. Okay --- I've seen that one too....

I indeed stand corrected. :)

[XemaSab]

34. Many individual Methodist congregations

are VERY VERY liberal. My pastor got up and said basically we could reach our own conclusions on whether the Bible was literal or figurative.

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Methodists are all over the place

I can't think of a major American denomination with as great a spread of beliefs. Some are as liberal as gentle folk like the Presbyterians, and some are true fire breathers.

[Rich Hunt]

20. atrocious

What a corrupt institution.

[slackmaster]

21. "Defrocked" sounds like they stripped her in public

Maybe even flogged her.

:eyes:

[Peter Frank]

23. now we can add Methodists to the Madness... n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. And Sunday shall remain the most segregated day of the week

[Megahurtz]

26. Are they playing God or something? n/t

[Zhade]

28. Weird - I've been told by liberal believers that the Methodist Church...

...isn't into the same kind of bigotry and homophobia as the Roman Catholic Church.

This kind of thing undercuts that argument. I feel bad for the liberal Methodists we've got around here. I hope they speak up about this, if this is their church.

[brer cat]

30. It is a sad day and I hope that DUers will sympathize not criticize

I'm a life-long UM, and have for a long time considered my domination among the most progressive and tolerant--and never "fundie". I grew up in GA where racial issues almost destroyed the church in the 1960's, but I thought that we had found common ground. I know that the church will have a GREAT loss if they lose the wonderful gay/lesbian membership and leadership, just as there is great loss when racial issues create a divide. I cannot continue to support UM, but it is very painful to leave after almost 60 years. Please understand that there are CHRISTians on DU, and we have feelings too.

[Up2Late]

37. Most of us here definitely sympathize with you...

...Yes, you will run across a few insensitive comments, some are simple sarcasm, but most of those come from others who are angry at just this type of hypocritical church leader that made them (the person expressing their anger) feel un-welcome in their own life.

I, personally, was a very active, but dis-satisfied, Roman Catholic. I didn't leave angry or because the priest/pedophile scandal. I just started reading a book written by H.H. The Dalai Lama, just to see what all the fuss was about him, and before I knew it, I had lost interest in the "faith based" Catholic Church and eventually came to the point where I consider myself a Buddhist.

[Zhade]

39. Well, you'll notice I did sympathize. Heck, I used to be a Methodist.

It never took, and I'm an atheist, but I can understand the pain - and APPLAUD the fact that such moves on the part of your church cause you pain, because it shows you to be a good person who isn't about thinking less of those different than you!

:toast:

[XemaSab]

36. There's a HUGE current of dissent in the UMC

and I think this won't be the end of it for the Methodists.

[cassiepriam]

38. And God is happy about his??

[JPZenger]

40. Worse Part of It

The other decision made by the same board on the same day was even more troubling. They reinstated a UMC minister who had been suspended by his local church because he refused to allow a gay man to become a member of the church. This is in complete conflict with the church's marketing slogan of welcoming everyone.

I wonder if there is some way to decentralize some of this decisionmaking so that the more liberal areas can have different rules from the more conservative parts of the country. The reason the Episcopal Church has an openly gay bishop is because they have local decisionmaking. The National Board didn't have the authority to overule church officials in New Hampshire.

[Neshanic]

42. "Our hearts..uh no, uh, our minds...wait. Our doors that's it. The door.

The door...yup, over there, if your gay don't let it hit you on the ass on the way out.

Still consider myself a Methodist....but God it's getting hard.