Military spokesman says all American soldiers killed in war should be hono

[sabra]

http://www.ktre.com/global/story.asp?s=4016596&ClientType=Printable

Military spokesman says all American soldiers killed in war should be honored

BAGHDAD, Iraq The number of Americans killed in Iraq is approaching two-thousand, but a military spokesman says "it's not a milestone that we look at."

Lieutenant Colonel Steven Boylan says that's because the conflict in Iraq is not yet over.

Still, Boylan says it's significant for family members. He says all American servicemembers who have lost their lives in the Iraq war "should be honored."

[mike_c]

1. I'm really conflicted about this....

Those soldiers died doing their duty, which deserves honor, but the mission itself is dishonorable. There's nothing ambiguous about that in my mind-- their mission is thoroughly disgraceful and immoral. It's a criminal war.

On the one hand, respect for the troops requires that we ignore the immorality of their mission and focus solely on their individual conduct, but this argument applies equally to any criminal who behaves with dignity while committing crimes. Hence my conflict. I know others will likely respond that there simply is no conflict for them, but it seems to me that you can only do that by willfully ignoring the criminal nature of the war against Iraq.

on edit-- put another way, did the Nazi troops who died subjegating Europe-- rounding up the Jews for transport, or murdering whole villages as collective punishment-- deserve honor for doing their duty as they understood it, and under their laws? Is the duty that deserves honor divorced from the objectives of that duty?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[mike_c]

5. that's more or less what I keep coming back to...

...although I don't like it. I think America's military has been twisted away from it's original mission as a citizen defense. The modern professional military is used much more frequently as an instrument of foreign policy. One MAJOR problem with that is that the foreign policy is utterly corrupt. I think we need to seriously reexamine how we regard the military and its role in global affairs.

[Name removed]

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[tabasco]

11. Try getting a job with prison time and a bad conduct discharge.

Expecting troops to revolt is unacceptable. What you should expect is rational national leadership, not a corrupt cabal sending our honorable soldiers to die.

I suspect freeper scum trying to make embarassing posts for DU.

[mike_c]

15. it was a response to my post...

...and I'm certainly not "freeper scum." I've posted similar remarks. Can't we can discuss this without name calling?

[tabasco]

18. Then you discredit DU and all liberals ...

if you say that all of our soldiers are war criminals if they do not desert or refuse legal orders.

By putting the onus on the troops, you take it away from the true criminals, the civilian national leadership.

Your and your friend called me a war criminal. So I didn't start the name-calling.

On edit: It's ok to call soldiers "like well-trained animals," but not to respond.

I suppose my days at DU are short.

[mike_c]

20. might I suggest anger management training, 'bro....

I didn't call you squat. Now, how about taking a look at my original comment (#1) and contributing something substantive to this discussion? How do you reconcile the need to support the troops by honoring them with the dishonorable nature of their mission? If the war is a crime against humanity, how are it's perpetrators on the ground absolved from responsibility as criminals? I'd REALLY like an answer that goes beyond knee-jerk "support the troops" yellow-ribbon nonsense-- one that I can use to help guide my personal response to the actions of military personnel in Iraq IN MY NAME. Can you discuss that, or do you simply want to hurl insults about discrediting "DU and all liberals?"

[tabasco]

21. I don't like people calling me an animal.

And I NEVER even started a discussion with you. It was your 7-post buddy to whom I was commenting.

Tell me where I said everybody had to support the troops and put ribbons on their cars. If you read my posts here you will find nothing but disgust for faux patriots.

Your knee-jerk reaction is to condemn and discredit every soldier for the crimes of the Bush cabal. That's a bit worse than a knee-jerk reaction to being called an animal.

[mike_c]

23. then would you care to answer the question about...

...why we should respect soldiers for doing their duty if the duty is disgraceful, immoral, and destructive to America? I know your posts, and I agree with your opinion of faux patriots. Furthermore, if you'll read my comments in this thread you'll see that I've condemned no one-- but I have suggested that they condemn themselves by their actions unless their actions can somehow be viewed in an honorable light. I think we both agree that the war against Iraq is immoral and disgraceful. I've asked how we can honor those who participate in it. Can we do so only by ignoring the consequences of their actions? Is that really in America's best interests?

[tabasco]

24. The military follows orders from the civilian leadership.

A soldier who refuses to obey a lawful order will get a bad conduct discharge, a federal conviction, and prison time. You expect a soldier to ruin his life rather than participate in military operations.

You generalize too much to paint all soldiers as performing immoral duties. It was military people that reported war crimes and prosecuted war criminals. Many military people feel they are in a difficult position, but will continue to honor their contract to prevent the type of immoral, illegal conuct we both abhor.

[mike_c]

25. fair enough-- I appreciate your response....

I think it's wrong to ask soldiers to risk death for an immoral and illegal cause-- and one that ultimately undermines the national interest their oath was designed to defend-- but not ask them to risk prison for standing up for what's right, but I respect your disagreement.

Thanks for pointing out that some soldiers HAVE tried to work for honorable causes in Iraq-- I think it's too easy to forget that. Personally however, I still think that the overarching mission-- the invasion, occupation, and subjegation of Iraq-- is disgraceful, and it's hard for me to accept that anyone participating in that mission retains their honor for doing so. Just following orders is not sufficient defense, IMO.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[mike_c]

22. no-- reactionary accusations like "freeper scum" are NOT the norm...

...around here. Welcome to DU. Please note that the mods deleted that first post, which was openly insulting. The second contains a comment as well as the personal attack, but in any event such attacks are not generally well regarded here.

[Qanisqineq]

4. oh, I have conflict

I am married to one of those soldiers that fought in Bush's illegal war in Iraq. I am conflicted every day by my (and his) complete disapproval and loathing for the war and yet the empathy for those killed and their families, knowing that many of them also wounded or killed Iraqis. The reports of war crimes makes me look at my husband (not literally since he is overseas) and wonder, "in my heart of hearts I know he wouldn't do any of that, but I'm sure families of those others thought the same..."

There is conflict for me but I also know that they didn't decide to get on a plane and go shoot Iraqis while being away from their families. I know that the number of "I wanna kill Muslims" troops is not high. I've never met any, my husband knows one or two and they are hiding out in Korea and choosing to stay there so they won't have to actually go to Iraq. The troops just want to support their spouses and their children, they want to come home and stay home and never leave them again.

But I also have conflict about the "insurgents". Just as there are troops that want to kill Muslims for fun, there are actual terrorists there that want to kill Americans, any American. But on the other hand, there are also the Iraqis that just want us out of their country. They want us to leave them to run their country the way they see fit, they don't want Americans pounding down their doors anymore. They don't want to see anymore innocent Iraqis killed and they fight back. I understand why they fight back and know that Americans would do the same if another country occupied the US. But that doesn't mean I condone killing the American or British or Polish troops. It is just as conflicting.

For me, it all boils down to George Bush. He is evil and he is the one to be angry with and hate. He started the whole fucking mess.

[mike_c]

6. nice post-- godspeed and good luck to you and your husband....

eom

[LiberalFighter]

27. There is a limit what soldiers can do...

I don't agree with honoring all the soldiers that died... because they all didn't necessarily die doing their duty.

I definitely don't consider that the soldiers involved in Iraq deserve any type of honor since the war was illegal. And none of them were drafted (forced to be in the military). Actually the NG might be considered forced to participate.

If a soldier was not involved in breaking and entering a civilian's home rousting them out of their homes that would be a plus in their favor. If a soldier was not involved in spraying ammo into the civilian sector without pinpointing the source that would be a plus in their favor. If a spokesperson soldier was not involved in spreading misinformation about what was happening then that would be a plus in their favor.

[msongs]

2. bush should have to hand wash and prepare ALL american bodies

from his illegal war. In the muslim tradition I believe all bodies must be cared for like this and burial has to be very quick (one day?). that would keep bush and maybe even his dick, cheney, too busy to nominate their get out of jail free cards to any courts.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[William769]

7. I agree, they should be honored.

I do support our troops. I just don't support our Government actions.

[mike_c]

9. how do you reconcile their dishonorable mission...?

Serious question, not intended to be snarky.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. They must have bad polls about this

If it's not a milestone, why bother issuing a "not a milestone" statement.

Bizarre responses from the right so far: predictably weird from Malkin and the like, and super strange from the DoD.

[IndianaGreen]

12. The best way to honor the fallen is by prosecuting those responsible

for this criminal war, starting with the generals at the Pentagon and their neocon civilian bosses.

[Karenina]

13. Bingo.

[Solly Mack]

17. Exactly

[cry baby]

14. As we have heard many times from these soldiers...

their only goal in Iraq is to stay with and help protect the people in their unit. This is just a guess on my part, but I truly believe the soldiers in this war didn't really care about the US policy to spread democracy. These people were sold down the river by the liar in chief who told them that there were WMDs.

There are some soldiers that are torturers and therefore, criminals. Those people belong in prison in the next cell to the cells of the criminals in this admin.

[Trajan]

16. On the Whole ...

Those soldiers are honorable, and have performed their duty faithfully, without consideration of self ...

As long as they act within the confines of 'acceptable' actions, as defined by the international conventions of war, than I will not hold them responsible for the actions which they are COMMANDED to execute.

The problem is the POLICY ....

I am troubled by the loss of civilian lives: if one looks to the numbers who have died due to so called 'insurgent' actions, versus those who have allegedly died during the conduct of the US military action, I believe more have died due to US military action. EVERY death that was not due to 'insurgents', is directly the fault of George W. Bush and his administration ....

George Bush and his lying, traitorous cabal in the WH have led our military astray ... THEY formed the policies .... THEY are to blame ...

THEY are dishonorable ....

Our soldiers ? ... I feel they are honorable ...

Bring them home ....

[hadrons]

26. problem with honoring the American soldiers killed in Iraq is ....

that Dumbya and Pentagon is doing all they can to make us forget those American soldiers killed

[stevekatz]

28. the minute

The minute a soldier can decide what lawful order he going to follow and not follow is the day that America becomes a nation run by it's military and not by the civilian administration.

Bush is a transitory figure in American History.. He'll be gone in 3 years (less, who knows). But the price of losing control of the Military is far worse then anything that Bush has done or is likely to do in the future.

[Moderator]

29. kick

[Barrett808]

30. Military: 2,000 Dead an Artificial Mark ("Celebrate the daily milestones")

BAGHDAD, Iraq - As U.S. military deaths in Iraq approached 2,000 on Tuesday, the chief spokesman for the American-led multinational force called on reporters covering the conflict not to look at the event as a milestone.

U.S. Army Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, director of the force's combined press center, described the number as an "artificial mark on the wall."

"I ask that when you report on the events, take a moment to think about the effects on the families and those serving in Iraq," Boylan said in an e-mail. "The 2,000 service members killed in Iraq supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom is not a milestone. It is an artificial mark on the wall set by individuals or groups with specific agendas and ulterior motives."

The U.S. military on Tuesday announced the deaths of two Marines killed in fighting with insurgents last week in Baghdad. Their deaths raised to 1,999 the number of members of the U.S. military killed since the war started in March 2003, according to an AP count.

"The 2,000th Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine that is killed in action is just as important as the first that died and will be just as important as the last to die in this war against terrorism and to ensure freedom for a people who have not known freedom in over two generations," Boylan wrote.

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051025/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_toll

[electropop]

31. Celebrate the daily tombstones.

Whoopee. :sarcasm: