Neo-Nazi group to march through Toledo neighborhood

[Algorem]

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/cleveland/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1128623640102301.xml&storylist=cleveland

10/6/2005, 2:29 p.m. ET
The Associated Press

TOLEDO, Ohio (AP) — A neo-Nazi group will march next week through a Toledo neighborhood that they say has been beset by gang violence that threatens white residents...

"Police say that they would like to have a heavy presence, but I don't think that's necessary," said Bill White, a national spokesman for the organization and unit leader for the movement's Roanoke, Va., chapter.

He said he believes any violence that occurs during the Oct. 15 march will be started by residents or radical members of other groups that attach themselves to the movement's supremacist causes...

Interest in the event has grown, and expected attendance has ballooned from a couple dozen local marchers to 50 or 60 members from six states, White said.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Shades of Skokie

I'm getting all nostalgic now, recalling the Skokie march by the KKK back in the seventies. It was my first case as a volunteer ACLU attorney.

Heady times, indeed.

What's "neo-" about these guys? They're just Nazis, as nearly as I can tell.

Guard them, let them march, and stay non-violent. Watch them wither in the sunlight.

[UncleSepp]

2. White counterdemonstrators ... might be helpful

We ought to take care of our own radical elements, eh? Besides, white guys facing off against white guys defuses the racial element the NS group is trying to bring to the forefront. White guys facing off against non white guys gives them pictures they can take out of context and use to promote their agenda.

[guruoo]

12. Wrong -these people feed on confrontation...

do what you suggest and you'll
be playing right into their hands.

[LostinVA]

15. Greensboro, 1979

Sometimes counter protests at extremely violent events (especially the Nazis, Hell's Angels, etc.) isn't a great idea. I lived in Greensboro for many years:

http://www.gtcrp.org/context.asp

If anyone here does counter protest, PLEASE be careful and very non confrontational. These people are violent and often psychotic, and many wouldn't think twice about assaulting and/or murdering you. Watching your ass isn't the same as being a coward.

[meganmonkey]

20. Yep - We had a bad scene in Ann Arbor about 10 years ago

when counter protestors got out of hand. It was at a KKK rally, and the cops kept them behind a big fence, and some asshole threw a glass bottle at them and then it got ugly.

I have to admit if I was there I would have been tempted to throw something too, which is why I think we are better off ignoring them. If no one comes to support them, and no one comes to protest them, maybe they'll stop coming. I don't know.

Unfortunately they have a right to assemble. Patrolling a neighborhood is a different thing, but I would leave it to the police to make sure they don't break the law.

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

21. I know -- it would be so easy

You're right: they want attention, they thrive on it. If no one showed up to watch them but their lackeys -- no press, etc. -- what would be the point?

[UncleSepp]

24. I've seen the counterdemos done poorly and also well

The largest difference seems to be the attitude of the counterdemonstrators. If the counterdemonstrators keep it peaceful and orderly, and keep their confrontations to engaging individuals in arguments, they can work. If the hate on the counterdemonstrators' side is greater than the hate they're protesting, the whole thing becomes an exercise in silliness and the neos, frankly, come off looking pretty good.

In Birmingham in about 1990 or so (I would have to dig out the event flier and stuff to get the date right), the police tried using an isolate and ignore strategy for one of these demos - to the point of keeping the line of police protection around the demonstrators so far out that the media couldn't get good pictures, and flying a helicopter so low over them that nobody could hear anything. In my opinion, it was a strategy like this which led to the development of the strategy when dealing with peace marchers now. Even then, I didn't like the sneaky way that was carried out. It's not the same thing as not showing up to a counterdemo, but it's a different angle on the "ignore them" concept.

I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of the "ignore them" strategy, because it could easily come across as "nobody cares what we do". If, as seems to be the consensus opinion here, politically active neo-Nazis thrive on attention, then one of the possible reactions to not getting a reaction would be to step up the provocation until a response is reached.

What this group seems to be doing, by marching through a majority minority neighborhood beset by gang violence, is probably to present an image of tough whites in order to attract whites who are afraid to some degree, and who lack a sense of belonging. The reason I said white counterdemonstrators specifically, is that a disciplined group of white demonstrators without the racial hatred would be just as attractive to the same demographic, and would go to the heart of what this demo appears to be about. If a white kid sees no other place for himself than the neo-Nazis or the Army because we haven't gotten out there and presented an alternative, whose fault is that?

Just my $0.02... I know a little about this kind of thing, but not enough to pretend my opinion's worth more than anybody else's :-)

[psychopomp]

44. I think you are right about inspiring young people

It was an inspiration for me when, during my teenage years, young people stood up to racist skinheads and basically got them off the streets in my part of California. The tactics were different but the principle is the same: resist, and offer young people an example of a group that stands against these nazis.

Also, what is up with Ohio these days?

[UncleSepp]

25. self delete - duplicate post

[UncleSepp]

26. self delete - duplicate post

[astroBspacedog]

45. Counter Protesting with Humor

Here in Idaho, before The Aryan Nations were sued out of existence, they had an annual march in downtown Coeur d' Alene. Bus-loads of people would come from different areas throughout the state to sit on the sidelines and oppose the march. There was one thing that caught my eye that I will never forget. A man holding a sign that said,"Neo-Nazi's for Same Sex Marriage!".

[liberalitch]

3. So.... a bunch of idiots from my neck of the woods....

is going to some one else's neck of the woods to start shit?

[KamaAina]

4. Turn your backs on 'em and board up all the windows.

The only sound they should hear is the lonely sound of the wind blowing a tumbleweed down the street (they don't actually have tumbleweeds in Ohio, do they?)

[guruoo]

11. Best way to deal with them, but...

good luck in getting everyone to go along with it.

[HarveyBrooks]

52. I agree

The best way to deal with these losers is to ignore them.

But there is going to be a counter-protest.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051008/NEWS16/510080393

[BootinUp]

5. Advanced citizenship - from a movie I really like:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

[Dem2theMax]

8. Sigh. Oh how I wish we had a president like that. nt.

[Taverner]

48. What movie was that from?

Love that quote!

[BootinUp]

51. The movie was "American President"

Michael Douglas played the Prez.

[aresef]

6. If I lived there and they marched by my house...

I'd give them a (one-fingered) salute.

[stepnw1f]

7. Parading Babies

"The world is different from me....Whaaaaaaaaaaaa" "I want my mommy and daddy".

[Endangered Specie]

9. I hate Ohio Nazis even more than Illinois Nazis

;)

[LeighAnn]

10. Illinois Nazis

Ohio residents should take their cues from the Blues Brothers



Edited to include cool Blues Brothers link

http://bb.wynnear.com

[barb162]

56. why, are our nazis better than your nazis or something?

I object!

[GarySeven]

13. Wait a minute - that's just NOT POSSIBLE

I've been reading this board for quite awhile now and I am pretty sure from the collective wisdom of everyone here that all racists are down South - that the only people who live in the South are racists and the only place where racism exists is in the South.

This being the case, it just simply isn't possible that this story could be true. As everyone on this board points out every single day, the north is a shining citadel of freedom and democracy where children play under a rainbow-filled sky and all people live in idyllic freedom, holding hands and singing Cat Stevens songs.

Surely there is a mistake here. Surely there must be a Toledo Mississippi or Alabama and that's where the events described in this story must be about to take place. Otherwise, why would every time a Southerner pops in to say "howdy" on this board he is suddenly greeted with shouts of "racist" and is accused of trying to "refight the civil war" and all sorts of things. Surely it must because it has been demonstrated beyond all scientific doubt that the locus of evil and human depravity is located somewhere down South; a great nexus of dark matter around which orbit all that drags its knuckles in a vast slough of ignorance.

Now, either the people on this board are all wise and all knowing - in which case this story just CAN'T be happening in the wonderful, Eden-like refuge of justice and freedom which is the north; or the story IS true, in which case all you damn yankees are full of shit.

[Journeyman]

14. To make such broad and sweeping accusations. . .

reduces the power of your argument and paints you as somewhat less than I'm sure you are. Not everyone on this board takes such a negative view of the South, nor does everyone hold the North in ignorant, virtuous regard. Rephrase your complaint, Gary, voice it in a slightly more understanding tone, and I'm sure you'll find there are plenty of people who will stand with you against the ignoramuses who seem at times to dominate discussions on these boards.

Better yet, Google Randy Newman's song, Rednecks, and you'll get a small flavor for how a substantial number of people on DU regard both the South and the North and the attitudes of so many within those artificial constructs.

[GarySeven]

27. sa-tire (n)

1.
A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
B. The branch of literature constituting such works. See Synonyms at caricature.

2. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=satire

[thebigidea]

35. you should probably work on the "caustic wit" part, then.

some of that tends to help.

[Gnostic]

50. The Nazi's are the only ones

Standing up to that crap.

Now before I have to get out and don the flame resistant suit, let me say I think the Nazi's are a bunch of psychopathic goofballs bent on getting any amount of attention and media coverage they can, and this march is obviously a racist stunt to garner support. But since the gang and crime problem is getting so out of hand in such neighborhoods (and don't tell me it is'nt, I lived or stayed in most larger US cities including several mid-western, and I know first hand how bad it's getting) I don't see anyone else getting out there and trying to stop it or attempting to intimidate the gang members back. So actually, some of what these guys are doing just makes me sit back and smile and say to myself GOOD they need it.

The Nazi's always denigrate and ruin their cause though with all their racist, fascist groupspeak. So I'm just hoping that perhaps a large gunbattle will ensue between both sides, both get wiped out and all the neighborhood will have to do is pick up and dispose of the bodies and be much, much better off all the way round.

[LostinVA]

16. If you read the board regularly, you'd know most of us know

the Klan was, and is, strongest in the Midwest. We also acknowledge how racist the North and West can be. I lived 17 years in a very racist part of NJ, 17 years in a moderate part of NC, and six years in a liberal part of VA. I can say the biggest overt racists I ever met were the ones in NJ, and the biggest institutionalized ones in NC. This is my experience.

[Nevernose]

17. It sure FEELS that way sometimes.

It's not true for everybody at DU, but it sure does feel that way sometimes.

Great post. Bitter, sarcastic, and funny, too:

"...the locus of evil and human depravity is located down South."

"...a shining citadel of freedom and democracy where children play under a rainbow-filled sky and all people live in idyllic freedom, holding hands and singing Cat Stevens songs."

[really annoyed]

40. I find nothing funny about his post

I guess I don't find humor in cruelty.

[GarySeven]

46. All humor is cruelty

and it is the doxology of liberalism - that all things MUST be the way you command it to be, even satire - that will be the undoing of the progressive movement.

Cripes.

[Toots]

18. I expect you will be parading with them then.....

You sound like the type....

[GarySeven]

28. Whoo - boy - you shore did Rip me a new yun jest then

Yes, boy. I has shore been taken down a peg. I has shore got my comeuppance. I has shore been whittled down and shown for a hound dog. I has been castigated, castrated and e-masculated. Yore wit and bonnes mots have shore fixed my wagon. I has been whupped by the awesome power of your logic and firey intellect.

Thanks for proving my point.

[TrogL]

32. You're funny!

Do it again! :bounce:

[Geo55]

58. Yeah ! Yeah !

Do it again daddy !.....lolol
an' "really annoyed " please step down from that electric chair

[really annoyed]

41. What "point" are you trying to make?

Besides being an asshole?

[GarySeven]

47. That you hate Southerners

and you know you do.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Despite the denials of several posters, I've got to say

that I've been here since 2001 and there's a helluva lot of truth in what you say.

[raccoon]

22. I agree. Same with the media, same with real life.

Not long ago, I heard a woman from MA said she'd been surprised when she moved to the South at how racist the South was.

One of my co-workers said in Boston there was a lot of resistance to integration and last time he checked Boston was in MA.

Not ALL people who live in/used to live in non-Southern states are like this, but it appears that a lot are.

[really annoyed]

37. Same goes for the North

Some smart-ass always has something to say about Boston or CA.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to join the pity party for people who get offended too easily.

:nopity:

The South can continue to pretend they are morally superior and can whitewash their past.

[kestrel91316]

59. No, you've got it all wrong.................we don't hate SOUTHERNERS,

we hate CATHOLICS!!!!!!!!!!

(ducks, covers, and runs, lol)

[really annoyed]

36. Hmm....

:nopity:

That's right - I forgot the South is MORALLY superior to everybody and that people from the South get treated SO BADLY here...

Give me a break.

But heck, the Nazi people reach the majority of states now....

Nazi Groups By State

[barb162]

55. Um, I just posted a book review on sundown laws earlier this week

and it was on northern states. Sundown laws referred to black people; they'd better be out of town by sundown.

[superconnected]

23. Are they named, Karl, Dick and George?

[crankybubba]

29. I predict there will be

many many "w" stickers and shirts in attendance in support of the fuher...err president.

[noonwitch]

30. Hell, I think they should drive about 50 miles north and have their parade

Let's see how many Klan members survive the experience.

[fujiyama]

33. Hehe

Let's see those fuckers in Detroit.

They'd be pissing in their pants. They wouldn't last a minute.

[Algorem]

31. "A neighbors' quarrel behind neo-Nazi march",these neo-Nazis are DUM

They're as dum as the ones in the Blues Brothers.Makes no sense at all.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051007/NEWS16/510070394

Those involved don't expect to participate in event Oct. 15

By CHRISTINA HALL
BLADE STAFF WRITER

Toledo police said the dispute between a black woman and a white man in the north end started over a fence.

Amelia Gray said it began when she bumped her neighbor's vehicle while backing out of her Bronson Avenue driveway.

Her neighbor, Tom Szych, said it started with her garbage in the alley...

No matter what the cause, the situation has attracted the attention of a neo-Nazi group, which plans to hold a rally in North Toledo...

[fujiyama]

34. Didn't Toleda give John Rocker a standing ovation once?

I drove through it a while back...Very dilapitated and run down...Like Detroit in many ways. You can clearly see the mess the state is in, with the collapse of the manufacturing base.

But I stopped at a gas station and needed some directions and they were actually friendly (and I'm a minority)...not the rednecks you might expect. It shows that assumptions and stereotypes are pretty stupid.

[HarveyBrooks]

53. Ummmmm........

No - Toledo never gave John Rocker a standing ovation (where the heck did that come from?)

I'm not sure why you would expect people in Toledo to be "rednecks" but it's always been a Democratic stronghold (went 70-30% for Kerry) and currently has an African-American mayor.

As for it being "Very dilapitated and run down" I can only guess you just happened to drive through one of the poorer sections of town - something that, unfortunately, every city has.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Let them march.

Free speech is not the reason. I think they should be allowed to march to show that rampant hate still exists!

Let them make speeches!
So that "normal" people find that some of the words and feelings the Nazis have are similar to their own!

Let them be raw and hate-filled!
Maybe it will expose the hidden hate many of us harbor and work to correct it.

Let them assemble!
It reminds us why Jews say "Never Again!"

Let them pretend they are not bigots, just wanting a "pure" America!
Perhaps, this will remind us that others think and act the same, but don't use the same words.

Not all Nazis are so easy to identify....they are the ones we REALLY need to fear!

[really annoyed]

39. Thank You....

Your post speaks the most truth here. I commend you.

Heck, my own parents agree with a KKK member they saw on television one day....

[Behind the Aegis]

42. I appreciate it!

The worst thing many of us face is our own discriminatory thoughts. It may be because of how or where we were raised, or even experiences, But, anyone who says they are not prejudiced is a liar or deluded. It is human nature to "pre-judge." What really matters is if we let that pre-judging apply to all of the people of a certain group. If so, then we need to re-examine ourselves.

[progressivepolitics]

43. Better

That they are out in the open and identifiable than hidden in some dark corner and marginalized. If you see them they are so much the bogey man are they?

[classysassy]

49. The marching fools

why don't you simple minded clowns march off to Iraq,could it be that you are a bunch of cowards?.

[hogwyld]

54. AKA repukes!

Why don't they just gather up these A**holes and ship them off to the middle east where they will quickly learn the error of their ways!

[pro_blue_guy]

57. Why Toledo, Ohio?

Why profess hate?

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

60. I hope the Freepers get more people at this rally

then they got at their pro-war rally.